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Julius Vs Devil
- Thread starter Epsilon_R
- Start date
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Mephistofelicia said:
Head canon if I've ever seen it
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The Devil blocked Patry's attack with a lot more ease than Julius did.
Julius was not really trying against Patri. Also, the Devil never really blocked anything, he simply used Kotodama magic to play around with Patri.
Julius was struggling against the whip, and got dragged by it a good bit.
Julius was not struggling against Patry at all. As a matter of fact, he had the edge over Patry for the entirety of the match, and Patry knew this, which is he why he had to take the recourse of attacking the entire Clover Kingdom to distract Julius, and he had to do so when Julius had run out of time reserves. Taking advantage of hostages and winning is a feat, but prior to this feat, Julius was playing around with his food, and not even going full-power.
The Devil stomps, as said before. "Come here. Get crushed. Get broken. Get back here. Disappear. Storm of Blades." These words would just about end the fight. If all else fails, the Devil uses his grimoire and soloes the kingdom along with Julius.
No, this is simply false. Mana Zone: "Chrono Stasis" Grigora would completely undermine these attacks, as well as Time Reversal. Not only that, but if Julius lands Time Restraint Magic: Chrono Stasis even just once, the Devil is rendered completely powerless. Also, Julius can more than likely use Time Annihilation against the Devil. These two attacks are essentially OHKOs. Also, if worse comes to worse, Chrono Anastasis will completely undo everything that happens in the fight.
Using Patry's victory against Julius is quite unfair, since Julius was hardly trying. Julius was trying to explore Patry's magic, which is a novelty to him, as well as trying to refrain from killing him, since this would imply killing William as well, whom he had all intentions of forgiving. Also, hostages were involved.
Also, you give the Devil too much credit. He lost to Asta and Yuno, a team which was unable to defeat Licht at their peaks, even when Licht was not only not fully awakened, but he was barely even trying to fight. And the reason he lost is simple: anti-magic is one of the very few things that can actually kill him. The other mages were unable to hurt him because devils have immunity against magic from not the demon realm.
Julius was not really trying against Patri. Also, the Devil never really blocked anything, he simply used Kotodama magic to play around with Patri.
Julius was struggling against the whip, and got dragged by it a good bit.
Julius was not struggling against Patry at all. As a matter of fact, he had the edge over Patry for the entirety of the match, and Patry knew this, which is he why he had to take the recourse of attacking the entire Clover Kingdom to distract Julius, and he had to do so when Julius had run out of time reserves. Taking advantage of hostages and winning is a feat, but prior to this feat, Julius was playing around with his food, and not even going full-power.
The Devil stomps, as said before. "Come here. Get crushed. Get broken. Get back here. Disappear. Storm of Blades." These words would just about end the fight. If all else fails, the Devil uses his grimoire and soloes the kingdom along with Julius.
No, this is simply false. Mana Zone: "Chrono Stasis" Grigora would completely undermine these attacks, as well as Time Reversal. Not only that, but if Julius lands Time Restraint Magic: Chrono Stasis even just once, the Devil is rendered completely powerless. Also, Julius can more than likely use Time Annihilation against the Devil. These two attacks are essentially OHKOs. Also, if worse comes to worse, Chrono Anastasis will completely undo everything that happens in the fight.
Using Patry's victory against Julius is quite unfair, since Julius was hardly trying. Julius was trying to explore Patry's magic, which is a novelty to him, as well as trying to refrain from killing him, since this would imply killing William as well, whom he had all intentions of forgiving. Also, hostages were involved.
Also, you give the Devil too much credit. He lost to Asta and Yuno, a team which was unable to defeat Licht at their peaks, even when Licht was not only not fully awakened, but he was barely even trying to fight. And the reason he lost is simple: anti-magic is one of the very few things that can actually kill him. The other mages were unable to hurt him because devils have immunity against magic from not the demon realm.
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Saying that she doesn't know for certain is supported by no evidence and is a rather bold assumption, especially when it has been shown for her to know things far harder to know than this. In the very same chapter, it was revealed that she knew Julius lost his powers. Also, given how smart she has been consistently shown to be and how she takes her position of leadership seriously, it would make no sense to assume that she is willing to risk the safety of her entire kingdom on a claim she would be uncertain of, especially when the fighters she is relying on are explicitly stated to be low tier (lesser than stage 9, stage 6, and tier 2, none of which can even contend with devils). If we go by what is justifiable, then your claim is wrong. You are reading too much into the "has potential to" phrase. If that type of fallacious logic is acceptable, then it should be acceptable for me to claim that the Devil should be able to simply wish death upon people with his Kotodama magic, given that it was never explicitly stated in words that he cannot do this. And honestly, no reason was given for why he should not have been able to. Of course, we know the reasons, but those reasons are implicit, and you obviously cannot take the idea of "magic via wishing" completely literally and to its extreme. There are many other ways to apply that fallacious logic to arrive at absurd conclusion in Black Clover. But it is just that: fallacious.Bob8999 said:
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I vote Julius wins mid difficulty.Epsilon R said:
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I'll also vote Julius, FRA.
Also, if you're looking for matches for him, I'd suggest Ageha Yoshina or Karaka. Both are powerful Low 6-B's that are pretty underused. Psyre as a verse is full of Low 6-B characters.
Also, if you're looking for matches for him, I'd suggest Ageha Yoshina or Karaka. Both are powerful Low 6-B's that are pretty underused. Psyre as a verse is full of Low 6-B characters.
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100 Bump in one hundred block to get wooden blocks
Element Animation's Minecraft Villager Music cue
Element Animation's Minecraft Villager Music cue
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What is the official vote count? It would be nice to see this thread move toward some sort of decision.
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BUMP
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Julius FRA.
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World Devil no-diff, again, because of common sense. Julius is not on his level. His showing against Patry isn't even as impressive as Mereo's showing against Rhya ffs.
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Seriously, people, they both fought Patry. Zagred fought a stronger Party, and that was without having his grimoire. Even if Julius was holding back (which would be ONLY his attacks. Dodging Patry's hits would not harm William in any way, so it's common bloody sense that his defenses and speed were at their best.), Zagred still performed MUCH better. Patry has time to make his whip and swing it at Julius, but he's not fast enough to even attempt to attack Zagred with it. This is proof of Zagred being faster, and his durability + defenses are infinitely above Julius, what with him being a devil and all.
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The Word Devils defense doesn't matter though? Julius attacks primarily through hax.
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Julius' main attacks are through hax so his defense means nothing.
Through out the entire fight there where several points in which Julius could have ended Patry but didnt cause he didnt want to hurt William, and outside two attacks nothing that Patry did seemed to phase Julius and one of the two attacks that did effect him Julius barley reacted to it and regened with ease.
The second attack to tag Julius was one in which Patry attacked the whole of Clover making Julius have to put all his power and focus into stopping the large scale attack to save his citizens leaving him open.
At no point in that fight does it seem like Julius is actually giving any real effort.
Plus Julius is quoted as being one of the few people who could defeat Megicula whos already been stated to be stronger than the Word Devil.
Through out the entire fight there where several points in which Julius could have ended Patry but didnt cause he didnt want to hurt William, and outside two attacks nothing that Patry did seemed to phase Julius and one of the two attacks that did effect him Julius barley reacted to it and regened with ease.
The second attack to tag Julius was one in which Patry attacked the whole of Clover making Julius have to put all his power and focus into stopping the large scale attack to save his citizens leaving him open.
At no point in that fight does it seem like Julius is actually giving any real effort.
Plus Julius is quoted as being one of the few people who could defeat Megicula whos already been stated to be stronger than the Word Devil.
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'''cringe'''
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World Devil no-diff, again, because of common sense. Julius is not on his level. His showing against Patry isn't even as impressive as Mereo's showing against Rhya ffs.
There is no common sense in the argument you are presenting. Julius was severely holding back against Patry. This objectively doesn't prove he is not on Zagred's level. Besides, they are on the same tier. The maximum possible difference between their APs is 6 Teratons, but I highly doubt that Julius' AP is only 1 Teraton, and I also highly doubt Zagred's is 7. So, the claim that they are not on the same level is beyond absurd.
Seriously, people, they both fought Patry. Zagred fought a stronger Party, and that was without having his grimoire.
Let me repeat myself. Julius was holding back severely. He was amused studying Patry's magic, he was trying to harm Patry as little as possible and capture him alive, because he knew this was also Vangeance's body, and he had to also pay attention to the kingdom and his surroundings as well and make sure he could protect them. If Julius and Patry fought on a 1v1 deathmatch with no external interference, no hostages, and no holding back, Julius would very likely win, possibly with low difficulty, although that's debatable. Also, you're ignoring one very crucial fact here, and that is the fact that Zagred has a massive advantage from magic type match-ups. And while he does have an advantage against Julius as well, it's not anywhere nearly as massive of an advantage. Patry also lacks the hax that Julius does.
This is proof of Zagred being faster, and his durability + defenses are infinitely above Julius, what with him being a devil and all.
No, this 10000% false. Julius can increase his speed via time acceleration, which is stated in his profile. This is not something he used all that much against Patry, though, which is also clarified in his profile as well. Asta outsped Zagred with the help of Yuno, and it is stated in his profile that Julius is vastly superior to Asta in speed, suggesting that he may be comparable to boosted Asta, if not faster. Even if Zagred were somehow faster than Julius, the difference would be negligible, but this is unlikely. Also, the claim "Zagred's defenses are infinitely higher" than Julius' is absolute nonsense, they have the same durability tier, except for the heart, which is only one tier higher. And the claim was probably hyperbole, but still, it's an unjustified claim. Besides, Julius has attacks that ignore conventional durability. Zagred is a devil? Oh, well, what was an example of a mage that can defeat a devil due to their unconventional and unnatural magic? Oh, yeah, Julius. Further justified by the fact that he was placed in the same magic stage as Asta, who also is capable of defeating a devil. Julius has the magic to kill devils.
I completely understand the argument that others have presented that Zagred has more versatile magic, which is definitely true, I am not saying he doesn't, but all the other claims that Zagred would absolutely stomp Julius have already been debunked and lack the evidence to be supported, some are outright contradicted by the manga and by the info provided in the profiles in the VSB wiki.
There is no common sense in the argument you are presenting. Julius was severely holding back against Patry. This objectively doesn't prove he is not on Zagred's level. Besides, they are on the same tier. The maximum possible difference between their APs is 6 Teratons, but I highly doubt that Julius' AP is only 1 Teraton, and I also highly doubt Zagred's is 7. So, the claim that they are not on the same level is beyond absurd.
Seriously, people, they both fought Patry. Zagred fought a stronger Party, and that was without having his grimoire.
Let me repeat myself. Julius was holding back severely. He was amused studying Patry's magic, he was trying to harm Patry as little as possible and capture him alive, because he knew this was also Vangeance's body, and he had to also pay attention to the kingdom and his surroundings as well and make sure he could protect them. If Julius and Patry fought on a 1v1 deathmatch with no external interference, no hostages, and no holding back, Julius would very likely win, possibly with low difficulty, although that's debatable. Also, you're ignoring one very crucial fact here, and that is the fact that Zagred has a massive advantage from magic type match-ups. And while he does have an advantage against Julius as well, it's not anywhere nearly as massive of an advantage. Patry also lacks the hax that Julius does.
This is proof of Zagred being faster, and his durability + defenses are infinitely above Julius, what with him being a devil and all.
No, this 10000% false. Julius can increase his speed via time acceleration, which is stated in his profile. This is not something he used all that much against Patry, though, which is also clarified in his profile as well. Asta outsped Zagred with the help of Yuno, and it is stated in his profile that Julius is vastly superior to Asta in speed, suggesting that he may be comparable to boosted Asta, if not faster. Even if Zagred were somehow faster than Julius, the difference would be negligible, but this is unlikely. Also, the claim "Zagred's defenses are infinitely higher" than Julius' is absolute nonsense, they have the same durability tier, except for the heart, which is only one tier higher. And the claim was probably hyperbole, but still, it's an unjustified claim. Besides, Julius has attacks that ignore conventional durability. Zagred is a devil? Oh, well, what was an example of a mage that can defeat a devil due to their unconventional and unnatural magic? Oh, yeah, Julius. Further justified by the fact that he was placed in the same magic stage as Asta, who also is capable of defeating a devil. Julius has the magic to kill devils.
I completely understand the argument that others have presented that Zagred has more versatile magic, which is definitely true, I am not saying he doesn't, but all the other claims that Zagred would absolutely stomp Julius have already been debunked and lack the evidence to be supported, some are outright contradicted by the manga and by the info provided in the profiles in the VSB wiki.
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I literally gave you the evidence. Julius did NOT hold back in terms of speed. He only pulled his punches. There is literally no way to make sense out of him not giving his defense and speed all he had, and even if he pulled his punches, "severely" is ridiculous to say, since the strongest attacks he has given us were the ones he used in that very same fight. Even if he can do better otherwise, that would be hype, not a feat, and isn't applicable here. Yami himself was also used as an example of someone who could beat a devil, and yet he was utterly helpless against Zagred, even with the helps of two people on his same level. They have the POTENTIAL to kill a devil, because their magic can affect them due ot being Arcane Stage. (Regular magic does nothing once devils go all out, as seen with Patry's and Yuno's attacks doing absolutely nothing to Zagred's magic once he went all out.)
Asta did not outspeed Zagred. He simply surprised him because of the sudden increase in speed via Yuno's magic. After that, Zagred went berserk and stopped fighting smart, instead throwing his magic around randomly, so Asta landing that final hit isn't a speed feat, either. Zagred himself is a lot faster than his super slow demonic magic. (Proof enough being that non-speed based characters like Fana are able to react to said magic.) It was that magic that Asta openly outsped, but never actually Zagred himself. Julius is slightly faster than Patry with his best speed feat. Zagred is much faster than an even stronger Patry (who should then be at least as fast as Julius, given the insane power-up elves get by awakening (Rhya went from being curbed by Mereoleona to pushing her back). I really don't see how you can't see the connection.
Zagred >>>>> Awakened Patry >/=Julius > reg Patry. Those are the speed rankings by feats. Julius is massively overhyped in this department, as even Yami had similar reaction time against Patry. Yes, Julius can boost his speed, but he is literally never stated to be the fastest thing ever, or that his speed is the best thing about him. By feats, which is the only thing that matters here, he's out of his depth in this fight. He's a contender for the second fastest character, sure, but that itself likely goes to Lumiere, with Licht taking the third spot. Zagred himself is the fastest so far.
Zagred's attacks are more versatile, destructive and hax. Their defensive magics should be about equal in power (both Vacuum Wall and Julius' time-freeze of attacks have yet to be overcome by anything.) but Zagred's covers him from any side, is quicker to cast, and doesn't require aim. When it comes to durability, characters who are 6B couldn't physically damage Zagred. It took Conquering Eon and anti-magic, which ignores his durability, to hurt him. He tanked several hits on a higher level than the ones Patry tossed Julius around with, and the one he used to slash Julius' chest.
Intelligence-wise, neither has many combat feats of intelligence, but Zagred does go full dumbass if you come close to killing him.
Zagred wins in attack power, defense power, durability, speed, hax and versatility. There's really not much to discuss here. Julius pretty damn clearly cannot take on Licht + Lumiere, who ultimately failed to even scratch Zagred by themselves, being far below him.
Since people in this thread seem to be flat-out ignoring feats and scaling, it should be closed as inconclusive.
Asta did not outspeed Zagred. He simply surprised him because of the sudden increase in speed via Yuno's magic. After that, Zagred went berserk and stopped fighting smart, instead throwing his magic around randomly, so Asta landing that final hit isn't a speed feat, either. Zagred himself is a lot faster than his super slow demonic magic. (Proof enough being that non-speed based characters like Fana are able to react to said magic.) It was that magic that Asta openly outsped, but never actually Zagred himself. Julius is slightly faster than Patry with his best speed feat. Zagred is much faster than an even stronger Patry (who should then be at least as fast as Julius, given the insane power-up elves get by awakening (Rhya went from being curbed by Mereoleona to pushing her back). I really don't see how you can't see the connection.
Zagred >>>>> Awakened Patry >/=Julius > reg Patry. Those are the speed rankings by feats. Julius is massively overhyped in this department, as even Yami had similar reaction time against Patry. Yes, Julius can boost his speed, but he is literally never stated to be the fastest thing ever, or that his speed is the best thing about him. By feats, which is the only thing that matters here, he's out of his depth in this fight. He's a contender for the second fastest character, sure, but that itself likely goes to Lumiere, with Licht taking the third spot. Zagred himself is the fastest so far.
Zagred's attacks are more versatile, destructive and hax. Their defensive magics should be about equal in power (both Vacuum Wall and Julius' time-freeze of attacks have yet to be overcome by anything.) but Zagred's covers him from any side, is quicker to cast, and doesn't require aim. When it comes to durability, characters who are 6B couldn't physically damage Zagred. It took Conquering Eon and anti-magic, which ignores his durability, to hurt him. He tanked several hits on a higher level than the ones Patry tossed Julius around with, and the one he used to slash Julius' chest.
Intelligence-wise, neither has many combat feats of intelligence, but Zagred does go full dumbass if you come close to killing him.
Zagred wins in attack power, defense power, durability, speed, hax and versatility. There's really not much to discuss here. Julius pretty damn clearly cannot take on Licht + Lumiere, who ultimately failed to even scratch Zagred by themselves, being far below him.
Since people in this thread seem to be flat-out ignoring feats and scaling, it should be closed as inconclusive.
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Zagred does NOT have superior hax, argue anything else but he doesnt have better hax then Julius.
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I literally gave you the evidence.
You didn't give any evidence, all you did was make an arbitrary claim with nothing else to support it.
Julius did NOT hold back in terms of speed.
Yes, he did, and I explained it, as he did not use Time Acceleration during the fight against Patry, which is something that his character profile here in VSB acknowledges. The fact that this is in his profile means someone already went over the calculations, had it revised in a thread by others members and staff, and it was decided it was accurate and accepted it.
He only pulled his punches. There is literally no way to make sense out of him not giving his defense and speed all he had,...
There is much of a way to make sense of that, mainly in that he has to make sure to converse mana and that he has to make sure to conserve stamina precisely because he had multiple external factors going on against him in this fight. Also, to an extent, he was focusing on trying to study and understand Licht's magic more in depth. There are multiple context clues, really.
Even if he can do better otherwise, that would be hype, not a feat, and isn't applicable here.
It absolutely would be applicable, because the specific circumstances of battle are relevant in determining the outcome of a battle, and those circumstances are completely absent in this thread. The VS Battle forum highly values battle circumstances. This is why people do things like giving you a specific battleground for two characters or setting up different rules for what constitutes a win, and so on. Some characters are better at killing than they are at capturing, and vice versa. If I set capturing or immobilization as the win condition as opposed to killing, then that changes the tides of battle. If I choose a battleground that happens to be inconvenient for one of the characters, that changes the tides of the battle too. That's part of the rules of the forum. It's unreasonable for you to suddenly decide to ignore those rules and deny that the circumstances were different, especially when everyone else in the thread has acknowledge those things.
Yami himself was also used as an example of someone who could beat a devil, and yet he was utterly helpless against Zagred, even with the helps of two people on his same level.
He wasn't helpless in this fight, and I don't know what is that makes you think that he was. He was able to hurt the devil, which most of the others weren't. And he developed a new spell. Yes, Charla did help in protecting him, but even if Charla was not there, Yami has Black Cocoon, which would have done the job in protecting him. He even came close to killing Zagred, although granted, Zagred was not paying attention. But the point is, he performed better than most of the others in this fight. Calling him helpless is baseless and an exaggeration.
They have the POTENTIAL to kill a devil, because their magic can affect them due ot being Arcane Stage. (Regular magic does nothing once devils go all out, as seen with Patry's and Yuno's attacks doing absolutely nothing to Zagred's magic once he went all out.)
Yes.... which absolutely nullifies your claim that Zagred has infinite durability and defense against Julius.
Asta did not outspeed Zagred. He simply surprised him because of the sudden increase in speed via Yuno's magic.
...that's how speed feats very often tend to work here in the VSB wiki.
Zagred himself is a lot faster than his super slow demonic magic.
Really? Seems to me like you need to provide a scan.
Julius is slightly faster than Patry with his best speed feat.
No, it isn't. Look at the damn character profile, it even shows it in the profile.
Zagred is much faster than an even stronger Patry (who should then be at least as fast as Julius, given the insane power-up elves get by awakening (Rhya went from being curbed by Mereoleona to pushing her back). I really don't see how you can't see the connection.
You have yet to prove that stronger = faster in the Black Clover verse. Elves are stronger because they can put more mana into their attacks, because they have significantly more mana. This doesn't automatically translate to "faster" for everyone.
Yes, Julius can boost his speed, but he is literally never stated to be the fastest thing ever, or that his speed is the best thing about him.
I don't appreciate that you're putting words in my mouth. Man, why do so many people in this wiki like to put words in other people's mouth? Such dishonesty. I literally never stated that Julius is the fastest thing ever, or that his speed is the best thing about him. This entire thread has been almost entirely centered on his hax, not his speed, in fact.
By feats, which is the only thing that matters here, he's out of his depth in this fight.
The feats show that Patry only defeated him due to the circumstances. And no, it is false that feats are the only thing that matter, this is literally stated in the wiki's rule for creating profiles. If a feat contradicts a statement, then the feat takes precedence, yes, but a lot of the information we have about most characters tends to come from statements and not feats. And statements are often invalidate because they are hyperbolic, and as such, outliers, which is also a concept applicable to feats - many feats are regarded are outliers in this wiki.
He's a contender for the second fastest character, sure, but that itself likely goes to Lumiere, with Licht taking the third spot. Zagred himself is the fastest so far.
There is no evidence for that claim. You're going to have to show me an approved calculation that shows that he is the absolute fastest. Because in his character profile in this wiki, the only thing stated about his speed is "can keep up with Asta," which isn't at all indicative of being the fastest, especially since other characters are being stated to be "vastly superior to Asta," implying they are, at worst, comparable to Zagred in speed.
Zagred's attacks are more versatile, destructive and hax.
Yes, and for the billionth time, I already agreed that he has more versatility, there is no need to keep bringing up a point literally everyone has moved on past from. Versality alone doesn't grant him a stomp. That's not how stomps work. Look at the VS Thread Rules.
Their defensive magics should be about equal in power (both Vacuum Wall and Julius' time-freeze of attacks have yet to be overcome by anything.) but Zagred's covers him from any side, is quicker to cast, and doesn't require aim. When it comes to durability, characters who are 6B couldn't physically damage Zagred.
Yes, and this is because devils are usually hard to damage when you do not have arcane stage magic, and most of those characters are in fact not arcane stage, or they have not been stated to be, anyway.
It took Conquering Eon and anti-magic, which ignores his durability, to hurt him.
For the trillionth time, Julius' attacks ignore durability. So, that's redundant.
He tanked several hits on a higher level than the ones Patry tossed Julius around with, and the one he used to slash Julius' chest.
Yes, Zagred's heart has higher durability than Julius, I already said this. It doesn't matter, because for the trillionth-and-first time, Julius can ignore durability.
Zagred wins in attack power, defense power, durability, speed, hax and versatility.
You haven't shown me the AP calculations suggesting he wins in attack power, but even if he does win in attack power, it is irrelevant in this fight. Me and others have said this already.
There's really not much to discuss here.
You're right, there isn't much to discuss here, almost everyone here has come to an agreement here except for yourself.
Julius pretty damn clearly cannot take on Licht + Lumiere, who ultimately failed to even scratch Zagred by themselves, being far below him.
I already addressed this point.
Since people in this thread seem to be flat-out ignoring feats and scaling, it should be closed as inconclusive.
Nobody here is ignoring scaling or feats. There is no scaling to ignore because you haven't provided the numbers to support your claims. You're the one ignoring things that are outright stated in each of their profiles, such as the speed feat qualifiers, you're ignoring the relevance of arcane stage magic when discussing feats, and you're ignoring the rules of the forum regarding the criteria for considering something a stomp, and also ignoring the rules of the forum regarding how battle circumstances, such as win conditions, battleground, and other such factors are legitimately supposed to be considered in a fight. You're also repeating points that we already addressed previously in a way that doesn't even attempt to debunk our counterarguments, ignoring the fact that we addressed those points. And besides, you're putting words in people's mouths, so I don't think it's fair to accuse us of ignoring anything here, especially if you can't provide examples.
And no, you don't get to decide that this thread should be closed as inconclusive just because you alone think it is inconclusive. Whether it's inconclusive or not is decided by the votes. That's in the rules of the forum. If you want to vote INCON, then fine, you can do that, I won't stop you, you're allowed to vote whatever you want. But don't go around trying to invalidate our votes just because you're unable to coherently debunk everyone else's points, that's against the rules and it isn't fair to anyone nor reasonable.
You didn't give any evidence, all you did was make an arbitrary claim with nothing else to support it.
Julius did NOT hold back in terms of speed.
Yes, he did, and I explained it, as he did not use Time Acceleration during the fight against Patry, which is something that his character profile here in VSB acknowledges. The fact that this is in his profile means someone already went over the calculations, had it revised in a thread by others members and staff, and it was decided it was accurate and accepted it.
He only pulled his punches. There is literally no way to make sense out of him not giving his defense and speed all he had,...
There is much of a way to make sense of that, mainly in that he has to make sure to converse mana and that he has to make sure to conserve stamina precisely because he had multiple external factors going on against him in this fight. Also, to an extent, he was focusing on trying to study and understand Licht's magic more in depth. There are multiple context clues, really.
Even if he can do better otherwise, that would be hype, not a feat, and isn't applicable here.
It absolutely would be applicable, because the specific circumstances of battle are relevant in determining the outcome of a battle, and those circumstances are completely absent in this thread. The VS Battle forum highly values battle circumstances. This is why people do things like giving you a specific battleground for two characters or setting up different rules for what constitutes a win, and so on. Some characters are better at killing than they are at capturing, and vice versa. If I set capturing or immobilization as the win condition as opposed to killing, then that changes the tides of battle. If I choose a battleground that happens to be inconvenient for one of the characters, that changes the tides of the battle too. That's part of the rules of the forum. It's unreasonable for you to suddenly decide to ignore those rules and deny that the circumstances were different, especially when everyone else in the thread has acknowledge those things.
Yami himself was also used as an example of someone who could beat a devil, and yet he was utterly helpless against Zagred, even with the helps of two people on his same level.
He wasn't helpless in this fight, and I don't know what is that makes you think that he was. He was able to hurt the devil, which most of the others weren't. And he developed a new spell. Yes, Charla did help in protecting him, but even if Charla was not there, Yami has Black Cocoon, which would have done the job in protecting him. He even came close to killing Zagred, although granted, Zagred was not paying attention. But the point is, he performed better than most of the others in this fight. Calling him helpless is baseless and an exaggeration.
They have the POTENTIAL to kill a devil, because their magic can affect them due ot being Arcane Stage. (Regular magic does nothing once devils go all out, as seen with Patry's and Yuno's attacks doing absolutely nothing to Zagred's magic once he went all out.)
Yes.... which absolutely nullifies your claim that Zagred has infinite durability and defense against Julius.
Asta did not outspeed Zagred. He simply surprised him because of the sudden increase in speed via Yuno's magic.
...that's how speed feats very often tend to work here in the VSB wiki.
Zagred himself is a lot faster than his super slow demonic magic.
Really? Seems to me like you need to provide a scan.
Julius is slightly faster than Patry with his best speed feat.
No, it isn't. Look at the damn character profile, it even shows it in the profile.
Zagred is much faster than an even stronger Patry (who should then be at least as fast as Julius, given the insane power-up elves get by awakening (Rhya went from being curbed by Mereoleona to pushing her back). I really don't see how you can't see the connection.
You have yet to prove that stronger = faster in the Black Clover verse. Elves are stronger because they can put more mana into their attacks, because they have significantly more mana. This doesn't automatically translate to "faster" for everyone.
Yes, Julius can boost his speed, but he is literally never stated to be the fastest thing ever, or that his speed is the best thing about him.
I don't appreciate that you're putting words in my mouth. Man, why do so many people in this wiki like to put words in other people's mouth? Such dishonesty. I literally never stated that Julius is the fastest thing ever, or that his speed is the best thing about him. This entire thread has been almost entirely centered on his hax, not his speed, in fact.
By feats, which is the only thing that matters here, he's out of his depth in this fight.
The feats show that Patry only defeated him due to the circumstances. And no, it is false that feats are the only thing that matter, this is literally stated in the wiki's rule for creating profiles. If a feat contradicts a statement, then the feat takes precedence, yes, but a lot of the information we have about most characters tends to come from statements and not feats. And statements are often invalidate because they are hyperbolic, and as such, outliers, which is also a concept applicable to feats - many feats are regarded are outliers in this wiki.
He's a contender for the second fastest character, sure, but that itself likely goes to Lumiere, with Licht taking the third spot. Zagred himself is the fastest so far.
There is no evidence for that claim. You're going to have to show me an approved calculation that shows that he is the absolute fastest. Because in his character profile in this wiki, the only thing stated about his speed is "can keep up with Asta," which isn't at all indicative of being the fastest, especially since other characters are being stated to be "vastly superior to Asta," implying they are, at worst, comparable to Zagred in speed.
Zagred's attacks are more versatile, destructive and hax.
Yes, and for the billionth time, I already agreed that he has more versatility, there is no need to keep bringing up a point literally everyone has moved on past from. Versality alone doesn't grant him a stomp. That's not how stomps work. Look at the VS Thread Rules.
Their defensive magics should be about equal in power (both Vacuum Wall and Julius' time-freeze of attacks have yet to be overcome by anything.) but Zagred's covers him from any side, is quicker to cast, and doesn't require aim. When it comes to durability, characters who are 6B couldn't physically damage Zagred.
Yes, and this is because devils are usually hard to damage when you do not have arcane stage magic, and most of those characters are in fact not arcane stage, or they have not been stated to be, anyway.
It took Conquering Eon and anti-magic, which ignores his durability, to hurt him.
For the trillionth time, Julius' attacks ignore durability. So, that's redundant.
He tanked several hits on a higher level than the ones Patry tossed Julius around with, and the one he used to slash Julius' chest.
Yes, Zagred's heart has higher durability than Julius, I already said this. It doesn't matter, because for the trillionth-and-first time, Julius can ignore durability.
Zagred wins in attack power, defense power, durability, speed, hax and versatility.
You haven't shown me the AP calculations suggesting he wins in attack power, but even if he does win in attack power, it is irrelevant in this fight. Me and others have said this already.
There's really not much to discuss here.
You're right, there isn't much to discuss here, almost everyone here has come to an agreement here except for yourself.
Julius pretty damn clearly cannot take on Licht + Lumiere, who ultimately failed to even scratch Zagred by themselves, being far below him.
I already addressed this point.
Since people in this thread seem to be flat-out ignoring feats and scaling, it should be closed as inconclusive.
Nobody here is ignoring scaling or feats. There is no scaling to ignore because you haven't provided the numbers to support your claims. You're the one ignoring things that are outright stated in each of their profiles, such as the speed feat qualifiers, you're ignoring the relevance of arcane stage magic when discussing feats, and you're ignoring the rules of the forum regarding the criteria for considering something a stomp, and also ignoring the rules of the forum regarding how battle circumstances, such as win conditions, battleground, and other such factors are legitimately supposed to be considered in a fight. You're also repeating points that we already addressed previously in a way that doesn't even attempt to debunk our counterarguments, ignoring the fact that we addressed those points. And besides, you're putting words in people's mouths, so I don't think it's fair to accuse us of ignoring anything here, especially if you can't provide examples.
And no, you don't get to decide that this thread should be closed as inconclusive just because you alone think it is inconclusive. Whether it's inconclusive or not is decided by the votes. That's in the rules of the forum. If you want to vote INCON, then fine, you can do that, I won't stop you, you're allowed to vote whatever you want. But don't go around trying to invalidate our votes just because you're unable to coherently debunk everyone else's points, that's against the rules and it isn't fair to anyone nor reasonable.
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Vote Count
Julius wins: (MindControl116, PsychoWarper, Litentric Teon, Davidgumazon) = 4
Julius stomps: (AstralKing7) = 1 (I'm counting this separately because stomps can't be added to a profile)
Zagred wins: (Mephistofelicia, RulerOfTheAbyss) = 2
Inconclusive: () = 0
People who have not explicitly voted: (SpookyShadow, ABoogieYesSir, Milly Rocking Bandit, Bob8999, Duedate8898) = 5
Julius wins: (MindControl116, PsychoWarper, Litentric Teon, Davidgumazon) = 4
Julius stomps: (AstralKing7) = 1 (I'm counting this separately because stomps can't be added to a profile)
Zagred wins: (Mephistofelicia, RulerOfTheAbyss) = 2
Inconclusive: () = 0
People who have not explicitly voted: (SpookyShadow, ABoogieYesSir, Milly Rocking Bandit, Bob8999, Duedate8898) = 5
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I just sat down and watched the Julius vs Patri fight, its pretty obvious Julius isnt going all out for most of the fight, hell his facial expression and body language dont really change, even when he was being swung around with the light whip going through buildings or when he was slashed through the chest, he seemed more amused by it, the only time his expression/BL really changed was when Patri released his limiter and attacked the Kingdom instead of Julius.
Id also like to note there where several times Julius was able to get behind and surprise Patri using his speed and at least 5 different times Julius could have killed Patri, he spent the whole fight trying to capture Patri while also doing damage control for all the shit Patri was breaking.
Also Patri admits to not being able to kill Julius straight up
Id also like to note there where several times Julius was able to get behind and surprise Patri using his speed and at least 5 different times Julius could have killed Patri, he spent the whole fight trying to capture Patri while also doing damage control for all the shit Patri was breaking.
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Id also like to note there where several times Julius was able to get behind and surprise Patri using his speeds and at least 5 different times Julius could have killed Patri, he spent the whole fight trying to capture Patri while also doing damage control for all the shit Patri was breaking.
YES. EXACTLY. I don't quite understand why anyone would deny this. "Capturing Patry" is a much more difficult action than "killing Patry." If Julius had wanted to kill Patry, he would have done it. I still don't understand why his loss against Patry is considered relevant in this discussion.
YES. EXACTLY. I don't quite understand why anyone would deny this. "Capturing Patry" is a much more difficult action than "killing Patry." If Julius had wanted to kill Patry, he would have done it. I still don't understand why his loss against Patry is considered relevant in this discussion.
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I would also like to kindly remind people that Julius has teleportation, this is stated in his profile. EVEN IF Zagred were faster than Julius by a significant amount, teleportation would largely render speed irrelevant - not completely, but for the most part.
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Another thing id like to note is that right after Patri stabs Julius he states "The fact that you are the Wizard King... That is your one and only weakness."
Alluding to the fact that his loss has more to do with the fact that Julius had to put the Kingdom and its people above himself taking away his focus from the fight and forcing him to do things differently then he normally would/could.
Oh also Patri is visibly sweating while even after casting his greatest spell and getting stabbed in the chest Julius hadnt broken a sweat
Alluding to the fact that his loss has more to do with the fact that Julius had to put the Kingdom and its people above himself taking away his focus from the fight and forcing him to do things differently then he normally would/could.
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Put this in front of the sentence then if you want to limit it place it again with a / in front of the s < s > (No spaces in the actual thing)
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I see, thank you.
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