Kaguya and Isshiki Power DownGrade

[Igneel]

So In this thread I’m kinda debunking the notion that kaguya’s (kaguya vsbw page) ETSO scales to her AP and that it has any ap which would then also debunk isshiki being solar system as well which the argument for him being that level is because he is supposedly above the ETSO.

So for one we gotta actually understand what the TSO does before we can talk about the ESTO. We know the truth seeker orbs is existence erasure as we see it erase minato’s physical arms and spiritual arms and we also see it erase shuriken’s and it was stated to be similar to onoki poetical style. It was also stated by tobirama that if they try to attack his back again they will be erased, which was noted that obito is guarding his back, were the TSO is so we can conclude the TSO is existence erasure.

Next we should talk about the ETSO which was stated to be the same as a regular TSO but it just expands. So why would this ETSO have any AP it’s not like it was going to blow up the dimension it was just going to expand to the size of the dimension thus destroying it because its existence erasure its a hax not a actual ap attack not only that but remember it took the chakra of the shinobi alliance to create the ETSO that amount of chakra was required to activate said jutsu which would mean it doesn’t scale to kaguya’s ap because the shinobi Alliance has less chakra than half of kurama and kurama has less chakra than the first form 10 tails in which he says to Naruto that all u will see is just how immeasurable it is, which is referring to its chakra due to Naruto being in sage mode which is meant to sense chakra and power. We also know the ten tails at the time had chakra equivalent to a small planet, therefore it wouldn’t make sense that kaguya would scale to the ETSO as the chakra required to activate/create it is less than small planet lvl, which supports the notion that its just a hax ability just like genjutsu,izanagi and particle style are all hax that need x amount of chakra to activate, that doesn’t mean the caster scales to it. Also note that only the sand dimension was shown to have a sun and 2 moons so it would be complete head canon to assume all of the other dimensions have a sun in it as well just because 1 dimension of her’s has one, this would be an association fallacy so the calc to get her ETSO is flawed as it assumes that there is a sun in that dimension and u can’t use filler episodes to prove day and night cycles because those are not canon.

Now as for isshiki from what was said on his page. It pretty much says for short he is solar system due to being above kaguya cause he is the most powerful person they have fought. But the problem I have with this is that it’s not quantified by how much nor do they say interms of what as he could be more powerful than kaguya interms of taijutsu or he could struck harder than her which again TSO and ETSO have no ap or a striking force they simply erase stuff. Also this does get reckoned when we talk about how chakra fruits work and how kaguya’s ate the chakra fruit after isshiki and her landed on the planet so she could be argued to be stronger than isshiki due to this reckon.

But yeah thats all I had problems with and no one scale to ETSO because it has no ap

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Tiktok scaler ahh naruto debunk

 

[Testarossa002]

because its existence erasure its a hax

EE below tier 2 can be considered as AP. Even if it that weren't true, ETSO was going to destroy and then recreate the dimension. The creation aspect (which is = to destruction) can be scaled to AP
I'm going to properly answer the rest off the assumption that this thread was made in good faith instead of something else

it took the chakra of the shinobi alliance

That's not what Zetsu said

can directly extract chakra from shinobi trapped in the infinite tsukuyomi - Ch. 689

That's what he said
Weirdness of the statement aside, the shinobi demographic extends beyond the Alliance Forces. aka, every genin/fodder left behind at home, ninjas from Non Great 5 Village and others fall under the statement

ETSO that amount of chakra was required to activate said jutsu which would mean it doesn’t scale to kaguya’s ap because the shinobi Alliance has less chakra than half of kurama and kurama has less chakra than the first form 10 tails in which he says to Naruto that all u will see is just how immeasurable it is, which is referring to its chakra due to Naruto being in sage mode which is meant to sense chakra and power.

This has 0 relevance. Chakra doesn't inherently provide a linear amp/nerf

We also know the ten tails at the time had chakra equivalent to a small planet, therefore it wouldn’t make sense that kaguya would scale to the ETSO as the chakra required to activate/create it is less than small planet lvl, which supports the notion that its just a hax ability just like genjutsu,izanagi and particle style are all hax that need x amount of chakra to activate, that doesn’t mean the caster scales to it.

Same as above. And for the umpteenth time, that scene was in reference the size of the juubi's chakra relative to the Sensing HQ's range i.e Shinobi alliance, Bee and Naruto. All that scene proves is that the Juubi has less chakra than those 3 combined

Also note that only the sand dimension was shown to have a sun and 2 moons so it would be complete head canon to assume all of the other dimensions have a sun in it as well just because 1 dimension of her’s has one, this would be an association fallacy so the calc to get her ETSO is flawed as it assumes that there is a sun in that dimension and u can’t use filler episodes to prove day and night cycles because those are not canon.

Genuinely what filler episodes were used to argue the size?

Also this does get reckoned when we talk about how chakra fruits work and how kaguya’s ate the chakra fruit after isshiki and her landed on the planet so she could be argued to be stronger than isshiki due to this reckon.

Man....
How is this a retcon when the statement for Isshiki was made after the Kaguya/chakra fruit explanation was given?
That aside, how is that an argument for Kaguya being stronger than isshiki?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Wasn’t that etsb calculation rejected or something in a calc group thread by Damage? Or am I misremembering?

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Wasn’t that etsb calculation rejected or something in a calc group thread by Damage? Or am I misremembering?

It'll be changed during ETSO revisions

 

[That_moron2]

It'll be changed during ETSO revisions

The cycle of ETSO never ends

 

[Kaydee1648]

Now as for isshiki from what was said on his page. It pretty much says for short he is solar system due to being above kaguya cause he is the most powerful person they have fought. But the problem I have with this is that it’s not quantified by how much nor do they say interms of what as he could be more powerful than kaguya interms of taijutsu or he could struck harder than her which again TSO and ETSO have no ap or a striking force they simply erase stuff. Also this does get reckoned when we talk about how chakra fruits work and how kaguya’s ate the chakra fruit after isshiki and her landed on the planet so she could be argued to be stronger than isshiki due to this reckon.

This is the CRT where it was accepted. Your skepticism about how he scales should directly tackle the preceding thread.
Disagree FRA

 

[Damage3245]

Wasn’t that etsb calculation rejected or something in a calc group thread by Damage? Or am I misremembering?

The calculation was rejected, but not the ETSO being included in Kaguya's statistics section.

 

[Antonio2288]

I agree with this criticism.

 

[KLOL506]

EE below tier 2 can be considered as AP.

Thread hasn't been considered as accepted yet. But the vote count does have an advantage for EE below Tier 2, so let's wait and see.

 

[Igneel]

Tiktok scaler ahh naruto debunk

lol Wdym TikTok scalers

 

[Igneel]

Wasn’t that etsb calculation rejected or something in a calc group thread by Damage? Or am I misremembering?

I’d don’t think it was rejected otherwise it wouldn’t be on her page

 

[JohnHendrix212]

I’d don’t think it was rejected otherwise it wouldn’t be on her page

It's just an outdated page. It's going to be gone in the coming revisions.

But it is going to be replaced by a new value, given that ETSO scaling still holds up, and Test has largely refuted your points.

 

[Igneel]

EE below tier 2 can be considered as AP. Even if it that weren't true, ETSO was going to destroy and then recreate the dimension. The creation aspect (which is = to destruction) can be scaled to AP
I'm going to properly answer the rest off the assumption that this thread was made in good faith instead of something else

We don’t know how it was going to recreate the dimension and based on how chakra doesn’t scale to it ie less than small planetary we can assume that it based on hax like the creation of all things technique aka yin Yang release which is part of the ETSO. U would have to prove that she was going to recreate it out of her raw chakra rather than a hax ability.

That's not what Zetsu said

That's what he said
Weirdness of the statement aside, the shinobi demographic extends beyond the Alliance Forces. aka, every genin/fodder left behind at home, ninjas from Non Great 5 Village and others fall under the statement

No it was stated to be the shinobi alliance confirmed in the manga and backed up in the data book. Plus we know the majority of shinobi were in the war they only left a few behind like the brains of the alliance but we already saw 10 tails destroy HQ so it wouldn’t even matter regardless if we take your statement as true.

This has 0 relevance. Chakra doesn't inherently provide a linear amp/nerf

It is relevant because it shows that they don’t have anywhere new planetary amounts of chakra.

Same as above. And for the umpteenth time, that scene was in reference the size of the juubi's chakra relative to the Sensing HQ's range i.e Shinobi alliance, Bee and Naruto. All that scene proves is that the Juubi has less chakra than those 3 combined

U painfully wrong with this one as they were shocked that it had chakra equivalent to a small planet yet wen 50% kurama’s came out all nothing close to that happed also how call all 3 of them still not cause the same phenomenon as what the 10 tail chakra volume cause to the sensory ninja were that big water bubble was the representation of the entire planet. Also how does the juubi have less chakra than them when it blatantly shows that it has more than them and confirmed by kurama and Naruto.

Genuinely what filler episodes were used to argue the size?

The kaguya filler episodes were there were stars in her ice dimension

Man....
How is this a retcon when the statement for Isshiki was made after the Kaguya/chakra fruit explanation was given?
That aside, how is that an argument for Kaguya being stronger than isshiki?

It’s a reckon because she ate the chakra fruit after isshiki was on the planet which the scans literally explain how it all works and how they get stronger

 

[Igneel]

It's just an outdated page. It's going to be gone in the coming revisions.

But it is going to be replaced by a new value, given that ETSO scaling still holds up, and Test has largely refuted your points.

oh gang

Nah I just refuted his points I just made a rebuttal to it

 

[DavidTPPM]

For the EE point I'll just note that ETSOs value doesn't come from destruction but from the amount of energy it stores

So whether EE does or doesn't count for AP is irrelevant here as ETSO isn't being scaled to what it destroyed to begin with

 

[Igneel]

For the EE point I'll just note that ETSOs value doesn't come from destruction but from the amount of energy it stores

So whether EE does or doesn't count for AP is irrelevant here as ETSO isn't being scaled to what it destroyed to begin with

Ok then I clearly refuted it since the chakra that is required isnt of the solar system amount but less than planetary also it wouldn’t scale to kaguya’s because she it just using a technique T take the chakra of other people and put it in the ETSO so why would it scale to her it’s not like she can do this on her own.

 

[Gamecooob]

Ok then I clearly refuted it since the chakra that is required isnt of the solar system amount but less than planetary also it wouldn’t scale to kaguya’s because she it just using a technique T take the chakra of other people and put it in the ETSO so why would it scale to her it’s not like she can do this on her own.

dude we already like, don't scale it to Kaguya herself physically or whatevs, we cant, Chakra aint a UES

we cant ignore that it is a move that she did. and it has an output.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Ok then I clearly refuted it since the chakra that is required isnt of the solar system amount but less than planetary

As far as I can tell you didn't even try to refute the calc which is being used, and even if you did it'd be pointless because the calc is already going to be replaced.

Also prove planetary quantity of chakra = planetary potency of chakra

also it wouldn’t scale to kaguya’s because she it just using a technique T take the chakra of other people and put it in the ETSO so why would it scale to her it’s not like she can do this on her own.

We don't scale Kaguya's physical stats to it so idk what are you debunking here. You should go actually read the CRT that accepted the ETSO scaling and address that because otherwise you're basically fighting imaginary ghosts.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

People are too quick to argue without even having read the profiles

 

[DragoZeroNova]

As far as I can tell you didn't even try to refute the calc which is being used, and even if you did it'd be pointless because the calc is already going to be replaced.

Also prove planetary quantity of chakra = planetary potency of chakra

We don't scale Kaguya's physical stats to it so idk what are you debunking here. You should go actually read the CRT that accepted the ETSO scaling and address that because otherwise you're basically fighting imaginary ghosts.

Imaginary Ghostimuscrime?!?!

 

[Kaydee1648]

Ok then I clearly refuted it since the chakra that is required isnt of the solar system amount but less than planetary also it wouldn’t scale to kaguya’s because she it just using a technique T take the chakra of other people and put it in the ETSO so why would it scale to her it’s not like she can do this on her own.

Did you even bother reading the profiles?

 

[HelloThere1089]

Nah don't listen to these wankers. Nerf their asses to building level.

 

[Testarossa002]

U painfully wrong with this one as they were shocked that it had chakra equivalent to a small planet yet wen 50% kurama’s came out all nothing close to that happed also how call all 3 of them still not cause the same phenomenon as what the 10 tail chakra volume cause to the sensory ninja were that big water bubble was the representation of the entire planet. Also how does the juubi have less chakra than them when it blatantly shows that it has more than them and confirmed by kurama and Naruto.

It's mind boggling how a lot of people read that panel and go "uh duh planetary". It goes both way btw (upscalers and downscalers)
Anyway
The sensing sphere is used to monitor chakra signatures in a given area. Konoha has its own sensing sphere (unless you think Konoha is the size of a planet)
The alliance used relay sensors across the battlefield in order to get an accurate reading of chakra movement. Again, battlefield. Not the entire planet. When exceptionally large chakra signatures is detected in the sensing range, they are reflected in the sphere

• Bee undergoing full bijuu mode caused earthquake like ripples throughout the sphere (Ch. 566)
• Naruto going into KCM 2 did something similar (Ch. 573)

Unless you think Naruto and bee were making planet wide earthquakes by just existing.

Kindly share a scan that proves the juubi have more chakra than every other person combined. Thanks

The kaguya filler episodes were there were stars in her ice dimension

Nobody uses that. If we were using that, the feat would be like 4-A. Did you even make proper research on how the high ratings came to be or you just saw 4-B and started debunking what you think the arguments were?

a reckon because she ate the chakra fruit after isshiki was on the planet which the scans literally explain how it all works and how they get stronger

Isshiki was stated to be stronger AFTER the chakra fruits explanation was given. How can you retcon something that hasn't happened yet?

No it was stated to be the shinobi alliance confirmed in the manga and backed up in the data book

Scans

Plus we know the majority of shinobi were in the war they only left a few behind like the brains of the alliance but we already saw 10 tails destroy HQ so it wouldn’t even matter regardless if we take your statement as true.

By virtue of the ranking process in Naruto, there will always be more genin than chunin and jonin. Only chunin and jonin participated in the war. So I don't know where you got the idea that only a few ninjas were left behind

 

[Igneel]

dude we already like, don't scale it to Kaguya herself physically or whatevs, we cant, Chakra aint a UES

we cant ignore that it is a move that she did. and it has an output.

Then why is it in her AP section if it didn’t scale to her.

Yeah and we can’t ignore that it is a hax that she used not some ap related move. Not all move/jutsu scales to. That’s why I have a problem with using the ETSO, it’s like trying to scale itachi to his genjutsu

 

[Igneel]

As far as I can tell you didn't even try to refute the calc which is being used, and even if you did it'd be pointless because the calc is already going to be replaced.

Nah the calc is whatever but the reasoning and assumptions that the calc has is my problem not the numbers.

Also prove planetary quantity of chakra = planetary potency of chakra

Bro chakra is just energy it would make no sense that planetary amount of chakra = solar system amount of AP which is the amount of energy put into the attack.

We don't scale Kaguya's physical stats to it so idk what are you debunking here. You should go actually read the CRT that accepted the ETSO scaling and address that because otherwise you're basically fighting imaginary ghosts.

That isn’t the problem the problem is that it doesn’t scale to any of her ap type jutsus it’s like me saying Merlin from 7DS has high universal ap because she has a ability called infinity and it makes any magic last forever xyz. Kaguya's ETSO has no ap u guys are giving it AP because u think she needs to continually add chakra till it reaches the size of the dimension, which isnt the case she just needed the shinobi alliance to cast the ETSO cause was out of chakra mostly.

 

[Igneel]

Did you even bother reading the profiles?

Who profile kaguya’s?

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Who profile kaguya’s?

Ngl, I think you might be illiterate. No offense.

 

[Arkenis]

9th crt about this?

 

[DavidTPPM]

Nah the calc is whatever but the reasoning and assumptions that the calc has is my problem not the numbers.

The calc isn't "whatever" the calc is what gives us the value that we use. Almost every finite feat on the wiki is measured through calculations not just guesswork.

Bro chakra is just energy it would make no sense that planetary amount of chakra = solar system amount of AP which is the amount of energy put into the attack.

Prove that.

Also this is fundamentally wrong. Chakra potency and utilization matter a LOT when deciding the AP of an attack. Naruto was fighting Kaguya with 2+x Juubi amounts of chakra while Nard himself only really had a used up half of 1 bijuu and a fart worth of other bijuus chakras.
Hell Obito was already weaker than alive Madara normally but could still somehow block attacks from a Juubi Jinchuriki Madara while dying and fighting over his body with BZ.

Also to hammer this even further, you do realize a human sized bomb can have city wiping AP right? Which is caused by splitting literal ATOMS right? So even ignoring the fact that chakra mechanics directly contradict your headcanon, even IRL logic doesn't support you. So when I'm asking you to prove a planets worth of chakra can't be solar system level I'm not just being annoying, I'm actually asking you to do it.

That isn’t the problem the problem is that it doesn’t scale to any of her ap type jutsus it’s like me saying Merlin from 7DS has high universal ap because she has a ability called infinity and it makes any magic last forever xyz.

I don’t care about 7DS. There was a super long discussion about Kaguyas ETSO and what can/can't it scale to.

I suggest you read that discussion and the currently accepted arguments if you want to try to debunk it. You can't expect people to take your downgrade seriously when it's not even addressing the arguments that we are actually using for the scaling.

To put it simply, you're not going to debunk the accepted Kaguya scaling if you're not even going to read and address the arguments for it.

Kaguya's ETSO has no ap u guys are giving it AP because u think she needs to continually add chakra till it reaches the size of the dimension,

Yes that is the currently accepted interpretation. The reasoning for it is that Kaguyas ETSO is canonically capable of turning the dimension into nothing and recreate it afterwards.

The method of expanding is accepted based on the fact it's called "EXPANSIVE truth seeking orb", the fact Naruto says it's still expanding, and the fact that Kakashi states that if they don't stop her the orb will become so large they won't be able to come back to the dimension. If you want to replace this with a different interpretation, you should actually address the arguments and explain why they're wrong.

which isnt the case she just needed the shinobi alliance to cast the ETSO cause was out of chakra mostly.

Yes she needed the shinobi alliances chakra to do so, THAT'S WHY SHE ONLY SCALES THERE WITH THAT CHAKRA. Please read the arguments that you're trying to debunk.

Shadow of the Rabbit Goddess

Greetings my friends, today I have cooked up a special meal with Samlex that has been long overdue in the wiki, this is going to be about Isshiki scaling massively above Kaguya's ETSO Energy Per Second value. I know there will be some inevitable misconstruction but regardless I urge everyone to...

vsbattles.com

 

[Igneel]

It's mind boggling how a lot of people read that panel and go "uh duh planetary". It goes both way btw (upscalers and downscalers)

Nah up scalers would say planetary ap downscalers would say planetary amount of chakra.

Anyway
The sensing sphere is used to monitor chakra signatures in a given area. Konoha has its own sensing sphere (unless you think Konoha is the size of a planet)

Umm no lol why would it be only for Konoha when we see them notice were everyone’s location is on the sphere also why would they say it’s like a small planet if the big sphere wasn’t a representation of the planet

The alliance used relay sensors across the battlefield in order to get an accurate reading of chakra movement. Again, battlefield. Not the entire planet. When exceptionally large chakra signatures is detected in the sensing range, they are reflected in the sphere

Yeah they did to make it more accurate but that wasn’t the case for Naruto and bee or Naruto. Then they would of compared the sphere to a content if that was the case but they say small planet

• Bee undergoing full bijuu mode caused earthquake like ripples throughout the sphere (Ch. 566)
• Naruto going into KCM 2 did something similar (Ch. 573)

Agreed but it wasn’t anywhere near 10 tails small sphere that was hype to be like small planet

Unless you think Naruto and bee were making planet wide earthquakes by just existing.

They didn’t make any significant earthquakes all that the sphere is meant for is to sense chakra although I think they can make such size earthquakes if they wanted to.

Kindly share a scan that proves the juubi have more chakra than every other person combined. Thanks

We know 10 tails has more because Naruto gave everyone more than 3x that of kakashi’s chakra lvl which kakashi at the time being one of the strongest ninja. And Naruto has the most chakra because of him being a uzamaki, well less than 50% kurama’s chakra lvl, since Naruto on his own had about 4x kakashi’s chakra and kurama gave very shinobi on the battle field more than 3x kakashi’s lvl and 10 tails if considered by kurama to have immeasurable chakra so yeah the shinobi Alliance and the Radom fodders who have no feats of having any significant chakra in the villages wouldn’t compare to ten tails and u would have to prove that it does since u are on the positive claim.

Nobody uses that. If we were using that, the feat would be like 4-A. Did you even make proper research on how the high ratings came to be or you just saw 4-B and started debunking what you think the arguments were?

Lmao how would that be 4A lol. I did the research I saw 4B then read the reasoning the read the calc and saw it a poor upscale which is I debunked the things the calc required such as it being a hax and the chakra amount isn’t to scale nor does it make sense and how bro was using filler episodes to up scale ie day and night cycle which was never shown in the manga or the canon episodes all we know is 1 dimension has 1 sun and 2 moons but that wasn’t the dimension that kaguya was going to destroy which would debunk the ETSO going to be the size of the solar system bs.

Isshiki was stated to be stronger AFTER the chakra fruits explanation was given. How can you retcon something that hasn't happened yet?

Statements can get contradicted and he was stated to be stronger after the explanation of how chakra fruits work because he died afterwards. What do u mean hasn’t happened yet it did happen kaguya ate the first chakra fruit of the planet which already had isshiki and her data recorded because they were on the planet.

Scans

By virtue of the ranking process in Naruto, there will always be more genin than chunin and jonin. Only chunin and jonin participated in the war. So I don't know where you got the idea that only a few ninjas were left behind.

Bro what are som kids chakra gonna amount to even if I were to agree with u? The scan literally says the shinobi alliance not every person caught in the tsukyomi. Remember kaguya’s was saving them for chakra bags for her future fight with her other clan

 

[Igneel]

Ngl, I think you might be illiterate. No offense.

Non taken but that still doesn’t answer my question

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Ngl, I think you might be illiterate. No offense.

Alright let’s not, this thread is does come off as bad rage bait but I don’t want you getting reported over it



A staff should just close this, poorly made crt with arguments rehashed from TikTok and Reddit from a person who didn’t even do their due diligence on researching the prior arguments nor properly read the profiles before attempting a downgrade

 

[Damage3245]

I think at the very least the OP's arguments don't go anywhere until that EE thread is resolved anyway, so I think the best move is to close this for now.