Naruto - Top of the God Tiers Revision

[Damage3245]

This thread is a continuation of this accepted thread to remove the existing method used for the AP of Kaguya's ETSO. It will address the main profile affected which is Kaguya's, and then subsequently any other character with accepted scaling to her.

Kaguya's ETSO

With the current method rejected, we will go back to the previously used version of the calculation (back when this was still linked on the profiles) which is the standard creation calc for a dimension with a Sun and Earth in it which is 1.1184707e+42 J or 267.320913002 Quettatons of TNT (4-C, Star level).

It has been cited to me, that this part of the calc blog should be noted:

INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT NOTE: Once again, this is exclusively for feats where the creation/destruction feat happens with the Sun at the center and the Earth at the edge. For creation/destruction feats that happen with the Earth at the center and the Sun at the far edge, please check this calc.

And that the feat should instead be using the linked 4-B calculation there.

However I believe this to be wrong; from a destruction standpoint, Kaguya's feat is not comparable to Cell's destruction of the Sun by creating an explosion originating from Earth. The ETSO isn't accepted as being an explosion but being an Existence Erasing sphere expanding gradually up to a distance encompassing the dimension's star and beyond. And from a creation standpoint there is no indicating that the newly created dimension will be centred on the planet or why that would make a difference to the energy required to create the dimension. For all practical purposes, the 4-C calculation which represents the standard feat of creating a pocket dimension that matches Kaguya's pocket dimensions works well enough.

Other Characters

Things get a little more complicated when it comes to the two characters who downscale from this; Baryon Mode Naruto and Isshiki Otsutsuki.

Thanks to this thread, it was detirmined that Kaguya's "energy per second" value for the creation of the ETSO could be scaled to her "power defining attacks like Yasogami Kuugeki and Truth Seeker Orbs" which at the time was using a 15 year timeframe for the full creation of the ETSO (making Isshiki and Naruto be Small Star level), and this was then changed in this thread to remove the 15 year timeframe and just have Naruto and Isshiki downscale from the Solar System level calc to be baseline Solar System level themselves which they are currently.

With the calc for Kaguya's ETSO changing to just around double baseline 4-C whoever, this presents a problem. We can't downscale Kaguya, Naruto and Isshiki to baseline Star level because that would imply that Kaguya's ETSO was expanding fast enough to fill up the entire dimension in just two seconds which is patently not the case. And we can't downscale them down multiple tiers.

The proposal I have then to just scale them above Kaguya's previous tier, with "At least Small Planet level" for their ratings by virtue of Kaguya being amped to be significantly more powerful than before, and this is what Naruto and Isshiki were rated as previously.

Votes

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:

 

[Hayato5652]

Looks good, I agree with this thread.

 

[Raiden38]

For now i agree

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Looks great, I agree.

 

[Deceived3596]

I'll check out this thread later. We will see if I agree with this or not

 

[Testarossa002]

If we can't downscale and can't use a timeframe from thin air, shouldn't we just revert back to the 15 year timeframe?
Which gives us around 500 Zettatons (5-B)

 

[Damage3245]

If we can't downscale and can't use a timeframe from thin air, shouldn't we just revert back to the 15 year timeframe?
Which gives us around 500 Zettatons (5-B)

That timeframe was removed for being entirely arbitrary and unsubstantiated; and we don't have to invent a timeframe for the sake of purely getting a result that would be higher than what the characters would scale to without it. I was going to make a thread to remove the 15 year timeframe even if Arc hadn't got there before me.

 

[Testarossa002]

That timeframe was removed for being entirely arbitrary and unsubstantiated; and we don't have to invent a timeframe for the sake of purely getting a result that would be higher than what the characters would scale to without it. I was going to make a thread to remove the 15 year timeframe even if Arc hadn't got there before me.

No. It was removed because a better way to get the timeframe was proposed. There's nothing wrong with the 15 year timeframe itself. It was the maximum timeframe provides given all the context surrounding Kaguya. A better method to derive a timeframe was then proposed and since that's no longer viable, we should return to the 15 year timeframe
There's nothing arbitrary and unsubstantiated about the 15 year timeframe. The justification is linked in that same 4-C calc
If you feel the timeframe is invalid, you'll have to prepare a new set of arguments that addresses that justification

 

[Damage3245]

No. It was removed because a better way to get the timeframe was proposed. There's nothing wrong with the 15 year timeframe itself. It was the maximum timeframe provides given all the context surrounding Kaguya. A better method to derive a timeframe was then proposed and since that's no longer viable, we should return to the 15 year timeframe
There's nothing arbitrary and unsubstantiated about the 15 year timeframe. The justification is linked in that same 4-C calc
If you feel the timeframe is invalid, you'll have to prepare a new set of arguments that addresses that justification

No; the 15 year timeframe is not currently accepted to be used, so I don't have to debunk it from being used. You can make a follow-up thread to this if you wish to re-propose adding that in, but as of now it is not a part of my thread.

 

[Testarossa002]

Not going to go back and forth here since you're not going to budge on your stance

---

I disagree with the CRT’s proposal, as it entirely overlooks ETSO's EPS rating. Notably, no value has been provided for the EPS scaling.

The rationale for not downscaling to baseline, as was done in the previous calculation, is unconvincing and borders on incredulity. Furthermore, it directly violates Rule #6 on our Cinematic Time page.

Additionally, the proposal concludes by deeming ETSO’s EPS rating as completely unquantifiable. This is inaccurate, as there exists a recognized and measurable method for determining the timeframe—one that the OP has completely disregarded.

It is important to note that this method is not currently in use—not because it was flawed, but because it was superseded at the time by what was considered a better alternative.

 

[Damage3245]

Very well then, since you insist on it, I'll prepare an additional argument specifically for the 15 year timeframe to add to the OP.

 

[Samlex1234]

This thread is a continuation of this accepted thread to remove the existing method used for the AP of Kaguya's ETSO. It will address the main profile affected which is Kaguya's, and then subsequently any other character with accepted scaling to her.

Kaguya's ETSO

With the current method rejected, we will go back to the previously used version of the calculation (back when this was still linked on the profiles) which is the standard creation calc for a dimension with a Sun and Earth in it which is 1.1184707e+42 J or 267.320913002 Quettatons of TNT (4-C, Star level).

It has been cited to me, that this part of the calc blog should be noted:



And that the feat should instead be using the linked 4-B calculation there.

However I believe this to be wrong; from a destruction standpoint, Kaguya's feat is not comparable to Cell's destruction of the Sun by creating an explosion originating from Earth. The ETSO isn't accepted as being an explosion but being an Existence Erasing sphere expanding gradually up to a distance encompassing the dimension's star and beyond. And from a creation standpoint there is no indicating that the newly created dimension will be centred on the planet or why that would make a difference to the energy required to create the dimension. For all practical purposes, the 4-C calculation which represents the standard feat of creating a pocket dimension that matches Kaguya's pocket dimensions works well enough.

Other Characters

Things get a little more complicated when it comes to the two characters who downscale from this; Baryon Mode Naruto and Isshiki Otsutsuki.

Thanks to this thread, it was detirmined that Kaguya's "energy per second" value for the creation of the ETSO could be scaled to her "power defining attacks like Yasogami Kuugeki and Truth Seeker Orbs" which at the time was using a 15 year timeframe for the full creation of the ETSO (making Isshiki and Naruto be Small Star level), and this was then changed in this thread to remove the 15 year timeframe and just have Naruto and Isshiki downscale from the Solar System level calc to be baseline Solar System level themselves which they are currently.

With the calc for Kaguya's ETSO changing to just around double baseline 4-C whoever, this presents a problem. We can't downscale Kaguya, Naruto and Isshiki to baseline Star level because that would imply that Kaguya's ETSO was expanding fast enough to fill up the entire dimension in just two seconds which is patently not the case. And we can't downscale them down multiple tiers.

The proposal I have then to just scale them above Kaguya's previous tier, with "At least Small Planet level" for their ratings by virtue of Kaguya being amped to be significantly more powerful than before, and this is what Naruto and Isshiki were rated as previously.

Votes

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:

I’ll respond to the message in detail later, but we still have to factor in the standard energy needed to destroy a dimension that contains Earth at the center and the Sun at the far edge. The ETSO must contain that level of energy regardless of its Existence Erasure (EE) properties. The EE aspect is mainly due to the chakra natures it holds but it’s not limited to EE alone. A regular TSO doesn’t have the energy required to fully return a dimension to Naught and the ETSO Databook made that clear to us.
Yes, the TSO can manipulate nearly every chakra nature in the verse, but possessing these natures doesn’t negate the need for a certain amount of raw energy to perform high-level destructive feats.
Some examples of what the TSO is capable of:

1. Matter manipulation
2. Reality warping
3. Explosions
4. Five nature transformation
5. Light and darkness control

Also I want to note, regardless of whether TSO or EE-based abilities are involved, anyone aiming to completely destroy a dimension that contains celestial bodies like a sun and planet isn’t just destroying physical matter, they’re erasing both matter and space. This is true whether the method is an explosion, a beam, or brute force like Goku and Beerus punch clashing and nearly reducing the universe to nothing. EE is part of the final result, but so is massive energy output.

So are we supposed to downgrade all complete dimensional destruction feats just because EE is involved? That doesn’t make sense. Even VS Battle Wiki says:

“Existence Erasure can be included in a character’s Attack Potency depending on the scope of the erasure and what is being erased.”

“Note, also, that Existence Erasure can be listed as conventional Attack Potency, as opposed to simple Environmental Destruction, if the character has demonstrated the ability to employ it in a fashion resembling regular attacks (E.g. Focusing it though energy beams and the like).”

And the TSO has been used this way:

• Golden Wheel Reincarnation Explosion – Split the moon
• Silver Wheel Reincarnation Explosion – Created a silvery typhoon that blew a hole through the moon
• Sword of Nunoboko – Meant to reshape or destroy the Earth’s surface
• Standard TSO blasts and explosions – Visibly function like chakra-based bombs

So, the ETSO doesn’t just carry the power to remake the dimension, it also contains the power to return it nothing and since the singular attack would be doing both we combine the energy required to completely destroy a Dimension with the creation/destruction feats that happen with the Earth at the center and the Sun at the far edge”.

 

[Samlex1234]

“creation/destruction feats that happen with the Earth at the center and the Sun at the far edge”.

Note: It never states that you have to be on Earth to create the dimension because at that point, there is no planet or star. This is a case of complete dimension creation, meaning it’s being formed out of nothingness.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm a bit mixed on if the 2x 4-C or the Kilofoe calc is the starting point, but using the 15 year timeframe I think is reasonable. I wouldn't mind a 5-B calculation that is a bit over 500 Zettatons being the lowest case scenerio.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm a bit mixed on if the 2x 4-C or the Kilofoe calc is the starting point, but using the 15 year timeframe I think is reasonable. I wouldn't mind a 5-B calculation that is a bit over 500 Zettatons being the lowest case scenerio.

Understood. I'll be posting an argument later about why I think the 15 year timeframe isn't a reasonable option; it's not ready yet but I'll notify staff who've commented on the thread when it's ready.

 

[Samlex1234]

I'm a bit mixed on if the 2x 4-C or the Kilofoe calc is the starting point, but using the 15 year timeframe I think is reasonable. I wouldn't mind a 5-B calculation that is a bit over 500 Zettatons being the lowest case scenerio.

We’re not using the 2x kilofoe calc as the starting point, but rather as the total energy required to destroy and recreate the entire dimension. The 15-year timeframe though I think it is too much of a lowball and doesn’t line up narratively, is just used to calculate how much energy Kaguya would need to feed into the TSO per second to hit that total energy, over 15 years.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Arc established the feat was gonna happen within less than around 2 hours and as a result of that is why we got the downscale , everyone unanimously agreed to it, why are we going back to the 15 year timeframe when we can just use the 2 hour one instead, that’s just backwards progression


Damage didn’t even make a single case against that he just said we can’t downscale to 4C and ran off with it thinking no one is gonna bring it up

 

[DavidTPPM]

Regardless of which calculation we use, I think instead of trying to completely remove the EPS just because the current timeframe doesn't work anymore, we/you should try come up with a new one instead.

For instance, we know the dimension would be inaccessible before Kakashis DMS timer runs out. We know it's virtually unheard of for a Shinobi battle to last even 1 hour and the longest confirmed battle was 3 days long.

Given how short Kakashi actually had the sharingan, I think these 2 are very solid and reasonable timeframes for ETSO.

So we have at least 3 different reasonable ways of estimating a timeframe rather than arbitrarily undoing dozens of CRTs without any actual arguments against what they proposed.

 

[Damage3245]

Damage didn’t even make a single case against that he just said we can’t downscale to 4C and ran off with it thinking no one is gonna bring it up

Don't assume anything nefarious here; I talked though my proposal with Arc before I posted it to make sure there weren't issues with what he brought up before, and it's possible both of us made a mistake.

For instance, we know the dimension would be inaccessible before Kakashis DMS timer runs out. We know it's virtually unheard of for a Shinobi battle to last even 1 hour and the longest confirmed battle was 3 days long.

What DMS timer? There is no known time limit for Kakashi or Obito remaining in the Kamui dimension after transporting themselves there. And Kakashi's statement of the danger of the ETSO doesn't mean encompassing the entire dimension but encompassing the area where they're physically at.

 

[Samlex1234]

Regardless of which calculation we use, I think instead of trying to completely remove the EPS just because the current timeframe doesn't work anymore, we/you should try come up with a new one instead.

For instance, we know the dimension would be inaccessible before Kakashis DMS timer runs out. We know it's virtually unheard of for a Shinobi battle to last even 1 hour and the longest confirmed battle was 3 days long.

Given how short Kakashi actually had the sharingan, I think these 2 are very solid and reasonable timeframes for ETSO.

So we have at least 3 different reasonable ways of estimating a timeframe rather than arbitrarily undoing dozens of CRTs without any actual arguments against what they proposed.

I actually don’t think this is even necessary. The last thread already gave a solid argument for using the 2-hour timeframe based on cinematic timing, which is an accepted standard on the wiki. That reasoning was backed by four thread mods/admins, as well as two other notable staff members, @Shadowbokunohero (Content Mod) and @KLOL506 (Calc Member). The OP hasn’t presented any valid reason to overturn that.

Don't assume anything nefarious here; I talked though my proposal with Arc before I posted it to make sure there weren't issues with what he brought up before, and it's possible both of us made a mistake.

Regardless of any discussions you and Arc may have had, that argument still needs to be properly addressed and debunked. You’re free to create a separate CRT or include it in this one. Also, it’s not just Arc’s argument, people like @Ghostimuscrime also contributed to that reasoning and were even planning to make a CRT to change the 15-year timeframe, especially after @KLOL506 pointed out how unreasonable it was.

 

[Damage3245]

I actually don’t think this is even necessary. The last thread already gave a solid argument for using the 2-hour timeframe based on cinematic timing, which is an accepted standard on the wiki. That reasoning was backed by four thread mods/admins, as well as two other notable staff members, @Shadowbokunohero (Content Mod) and @KLOL506 (Calc Member). The OP hasn’t presented any valid reason to overturn that.



Regardless of any discussions you and Arc may have had, that argument still needs to be properly addressed and debunked. You’re free to create a separate CRT or include it in this one. Also, it’s not just Arc’s argument, people like @Ghostimuscrime also contributed to that reasoning and were even planning to make a CRT to change the 15-year timeframe, especially after @KLOL506 pointed out how unreasonable it was.

From my understanding the two hour timeframe was based primarily on the calc value being 5000x baseline, but I'll go back over it and take another look.

 

[DavidTPPM]

What DMS timer? There is no known time limit for Kakashi or Obito remaining in the Kamui dimension after transporting themselves there.

Obito tells Kakashi that DMS has a fixed time limit, and we see Kakashi loses it right after they get back to earth.

And Kakashi's statement of the danger of the ETSO doesn't mean encompassing the entire dimension but encompassing the area where they're physically at.

Kakashi states "we won't be able to return to this place". Whether that refers to the planet or the dimension is a topic for a separate discussion but even then it would still make the ETSO fill up the dimension in just around 1.5 years (assuming a 1 hour timeframe for the planet).

But generally given that even unconscious children are fine on the surface of the moon, Kakashis statement should 99% be referring to the dimension rather than just the planet.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

From my understanding the two hour timeframe was based primarily on the calc value being 5000x baseline, but I'll go back over it and take another look.

Dudes gonna do anything but tackle the argument


a downscale was proposed because 2 hours was close to the value that would help reach 4B, I know this because arc discussed it with me and we spoke about how 1 hour is enough to get 4B EPS so it’s best to downscale, the 5000x above baseline thing was just a support argument

 

[Damage3245]

Dudes gonna do anything but tackle the argument

I'm out and about on my phone right now; not a fantastic time for me to get into a huge argument...

 

[Damage3245]

Since multiple people have pointed out that I've seemingly overlooked multiple arguments that need addressing, the current OP is insufficient for the proposal I have in mind so I will close the thread and re-attempt the revision with a more thorough opening post so nobody will feel like I'm just ignoring arguments.