Kakashi's MHS feat

[Kepekley23]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U..._MHS_but_nobody_realized#WikiaArticleComments

Since the Naruto revisions are almost over, I decided to take Ant's suggestion at face-value and create a discussion.

Basically, Kakashi once cut a lightning bolt in half with his Raikiri. I calculated the speed you'd need to do this, and plenty of people agreed with scaling Part 1 jonins to it, but DontTalk and Antonio both disagreed due to the feat being vague.

I replied to their doubts, but Ant told me to create a thread, and since I'm editing some profiles right now, I'd like to sort this out. Thanks in advance.

 

[RinkakuKagune]

Agree 100%

 

[DontTalkDT]

As I already said, I disagree regarding assumptions of the scenario and movement. (see the blog if you only read this thread)


However there is even more, even if we accept that interpretation. Specifically the timeframe.


The calc assumes that the average lightning bolt lasts 10 microseconds.

However that is not quite true.

What appears to the human eye as a single lightning strike actually consists of the stepped ladder and then multiple return strokes and dart leaders.The lightning flash lasts about 0.1 seconds and the lightning itself 0.2 seconds.

So on this ground the timeframe is already 10000 times longer than assumed in the calc.


Furthermore the calc does another assumption in that it assumes that kakashi only moves once the lightning has reached the ground.

There is basically no reason to assume that. Aside from the fact that one notices that a lightning will hit oneself before the actual lightning, even if we say he only moved ones it left the cloud, kakashi would still have more time to move than assumed here.

Assuming 2000m cloud height and 440000 m/s lightning speed he would have an additional 0.0045 seconds to move before the lightning reaches him.

Even with just that timeframe the feat would only come out at 440 m/s.


As said, in my opinion the feat as way to vague to take anything reliable from it. We have more assumptions in this feat than actual information.

 

[RinkakuKagune]

As I already said, I disagree regarding assumptions of the scenario and movement. (see the blog if you only read this thread)

However there is even more, even if we accept that interpretation. Specifically the timeframe.


The calc assumes that the average lightning bolt lasts 10 microseconds.

However that is not quite true.

What appears to the human eye as a single lightning strike actually consists of the stepped ladder and then multiple return strokes and dart leaders.The lightning flash lasts about 0.1 seconds and the lightning itself 0.2 seconds.

So on this ground the timeframe is already 10000 times longer than assumed in the calc.


Furthermore the calc does another assumption in that it assumes that kakashi only moves once the lightning has reached the ground.

There is basically no reason to assume that. Aside from the fact that one notices that a lightning will hit oneself before the actual lightning, even if we say he only moved ones it left the cloud, kakashi would still have more time to move than assumed here.

Assuming 2000m cloud height and 440000 m/s lightning speed he would have an additional 0.0045 seconds to move before the lightning reaches him.

Even with just that timeframe the feat would only come out at 440 m/s.


As said, in my opinion the feat as way to vague to take anything reliable from it.

The average lightning bolt lasts 30 microseconds this is a fact; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt#Terawatt.

 

[Kepekley23]

The calc assumes that the average lightning bolt lasts 10 microseconds.

Because it does

 

[Kepekley23]

The calc assumes that the average lightning bolt lasts 10 microseconds

It does, as shown in the link I provided above.

Furthermore the calc does another assumption in that it assumes that kakashi only moves once the lightning has reached the ground.

What's the problem with it? Kakashi has only been shown to use Raikiri on the ground, so, in order to cut the lightning bolt, he'd need to wait for it to reach the ground.

There is basically no reason to assume that. Aside from the fact that one notices that a lightning will hit oneself before the actual lightning, even if we say he only moved ones it left the cloud, kakashi would still have more time to move than assumed here.

Actually, it's quite hard to predict that a lightning bolt will hit. The only signs are rain, thunder and quick flashes. None of which would actually help Kakashi pinpoint its location.

As I said, I believe the feat is enough to get a good, consistent value for Part 1 jonin characters.

 

[RinkakuKagune]

Besides if he was capable of noticing when the bolt would hit him then wouldn't he have MHS(+) reactions anyway.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Ok, so first that page says it lasts 10-50 and you deliberately took 10....

Not to mention that your page says that the lightning is made up of up to 4 of these strokes EACH lasting that long.

And that is only the strokes, not the time interval between them.

Also this is installer of lightning equipement that mentions it at the side vs a page by the georgia state university.

To that comes the 0.0045 seconds that result from the average lightning speed, we have well researched.


If you want more here the NOAA describes the timeframe between appearance of thestepped ladder and the return stroke as 1/50th of a second.

Here is another page if you want more.

 

[RinkakuKagune]

Ok, so first that page says it lasts 10-50 and you deliberately took 10....
Not to mention that your page says that the lightning is made up of up to 4 of these strokes EACH lasting that long.

And that is only the strokes, not the time interval between them.

Also this is installer of lightning equipement that mentions it at the side vs a page by the georgia state university.

To that comes the 0.0045 seconds that result from the average lightning speed, we have well researched.


If you want more here the NOAA describes the timeframe between appearance of thestepped ladder and the return stroke as 1/50th of a second.

Here is another page if you want more.

I don't think Kep is talking about the Time Interval but rather how long it lasts. And you just used ad hominem when you decided to attack the creditbility of the page he posted.

 

[DontTalkDT]

What's the problem with it? Kakashi has only been shown to use Raikiri on the ground, so, in order to cut the lightning bolt, he'd need to wait for it to reach the ground.

That is like saying "why should a baseball player swing the bat once the ball is thrown, if he can only hit it once it is 1 meter away from him. He should only swing it once the distance is down to 1 meter."

If something is comming towards you, you start the movement to defend yourself the moment you see it comming. You don't wait with starting to move until it is in front of you.


And it is pretty easy to know a lightning bolt hits you. The electrical fields make you hairs stand up and give you the feeling of being electrically charged, some time before the lightning strike.

 

[Kepekley23]

I didn't deliberately take 10 microseconds. The initial current actually lasts TWO microseconds, and then it increases to five, which increases to ten, which then increases to 50 and so on. So I'm pretty much just taking the middle value here.

You're also confusing the time intervals between each stroke with how much each one lasts.

 

[Kepekley23]

And yes, 10 microseconds IS the safe assumptio

 

[RinkakuKagune]

^So I was right. Yay.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Your article says one stroke lasts 10 to 50 seconds.

"Each lightning stroke typically lasts only last 10 to 50 microseconds "

And as said, my source is way more reliable.


And who said he has to split the first stroke? If you are already assuming he moves only after the lightning hits the ground then he could have split any of the lightnings 4 to 5 strokes.

Nothing says the first one.

 

[Kepekley23]

Look at the NGO I posted above, which is dedicated to lightning bolts, and it states 10 microseconds is the average duration of a lightning bolt.

And several other sources reinforce that 2 microseconds is the initial value, which soon increases to 5 and then 10. I'm taking an average value, and not deliberately going with the high-end.

And you're reaching right now. My assumptions are the standard ones and are backed up by Occam's Razor. If my blog has 2-3 assumptions, you have 4-6.

 

[RinkakuKagune]

Saying your source is "more reliable" is once again ad hominem - instaed of actually adressing the flaws of the calc (don't get me wrong you have in this case) you are attacking the credibility of his source.


Question: does it matter if it's the stroke/leader ect as long as it lasts the same amount of time.

 

[DontTalkDT]

And yes, 10 microseconds IS the safe assumptio

Where does that page say something about 10 microseconds.

The only 10 microseconds I see are "Light from lightning travels at the speed of 186,000 miles per second (300,000 km/second), arriving at the observer in about 10 microseconds when the strike point is 1.85 miles (3 km) away."

which has nothing to do with the duration.

 

[Kepekley23]

If we're going by the logic that Kakashi is actually striking the lightning bolt as it arrives, you just pretty much confirmed my calculation.

Also, several sources state 1, 2-5, 10, 30 and 50 miliseconds for the duration of a stroke. I'm not in any way taking an overblown value, just the middle one. Even an average of all of these would barely change the value.

 

[DontTalkDT]

And you're reaching right now. My assumptions are the standard ones and are backed up by Occam's Razor. If my blog has 2-3 assumptions, you have 4-6.

Not how orcams razor works. Not even remotely.

I am not doing any assumptions. I look at all possible scenarios and take the lowest reasonable scenario. 0 assumptions involved, because I don't defend that it has to have happened that way, but that you can not claim that it has not happened that way.

Showing that it could have happened that way is sufficient for the result of it not being a legitimate estimation.

 

[Gemmysaur]

I would just like to remind everyone to stay chill and not double post. Thanks.

On another note, we're gonna need a standard for lightning duration in the future, maybe.

 

[Kepekley23]

The discussion is perfectly chill. Double posts are necessary when you find something new to add.

The way I see it, Kakashi struck the lightning bolt in 10 microseconds (average duration of lightning). I'm also not taking into account the distance he would need to cover, meaning this is a lowball.

You're making more assumptions than necessary, and no, the fact you're showing it could have happened another way isn't enough to dismiss it. Or else we'd need to validate conspiracy theories because it could have happened that way.

And yes, you are making assumptions. Your response to one of my posts was "it could've been the fourth of fifth strike", and you also assumed he already had his arms up to cut it, etc.

 

[DontTalkDT]

@Kepekley: You are ignoring the argument.

a) There is no evidence for kakashi only moving once the lightning reaches the ground.

Assuming that he does is not a legitimate assumtion and if we do not assume it the feat already only turns out 400 m/s. (because the stepped ladder only comes down at 440k m/s)

b) One single strike of the many strikes that make up the lightning only lasts something in the tens of microseconds, yeah (60 according to my source).

But if we do not go with the assumption that kakashi split lightning comming down (the end that returns only a 400 m/s result from a) then there is nothing justifying that kakashi split the first return stroke. Instead he would have a timeframe of 0.1 to 0.2 seconds to split the lightning between the first and the last stroke it consists of.

You can not justify any of these strokes to be more likely be the one he split than the other. Because, again, the feat doesn't have any information about what actually happened, at all. He would not only perform movement during the stroke he splits.


In other words neither assumption actually justifies the result you have. And when it comes to it you would have to proof that both assumptions return a result at least as large as you calculated.

 

[Rocker1189]

This all boils down to that we go off what the author was trying to say there, that Kakshi split a lighning bolt in half. Simple, there is nothing esle to it, the author never researched anything about which bolt he split or anything. Kkashi simply split a lightning bolt the moment it came down(or up in reality).

 

[DontTalkDT]

And yes, you are making assumptions. Your response to one of my posts was "it could've been the fourth of fifth strike", and you also assumed he already had his arms up to cut it, etc.

These are counter examples illustrating the most extreme conter cases.

I don't claim it was that specifically.

He could also have moved his hand 1mm or 1cm or 1d dm or 5 cm or 5000km.

What a counter example is supposed to do is illustrate that you are ignoring possible cases, which would fit the given information, but turn out a different result.


And yes, showing that something could have happened differently, within reasonable probability, is enough to dismiss it.

This is literally how every proof by counterexample in the history of mathand physics worked.

 

[Kepekley23]

a) There is no evidence for kakashi only moving one the lightning reaches the ground.

Explain how Kakashi would be able to pinpoint the exact location a lightning bolt would fall in. Because that's what he'd need to do for your scenario to be pausible.

If he moved before that, the result would be higher, actually, since we'd need to compensate for the distance he ran. Which would easily be tens of meters.

b) One single strike of the many strikes that make up the lightning only lasts something in the tens of microseconds, yeah (60 according to my source).

50 at least. 30 normally. 2, 5, and then 10 according to two sources I found.

If anything, "Possibly MHS" should be listed at the very least.

 

[Rocker1189]

And yes, showing that something could have happened differently, within reasonable probability, is enough to dismiss it.

This is literally how every proof by counterexample in the history of mathand physics worked.

That would be true, if this was meant to be a scientific experiment, but it is not. This is a manga written by an author with the intent of what he has written. Giving different scenarios as opposed to what the author is trying to show makes no sense.

 

[DontTalkDT]

a) There is no evidence for kakashi only moving one the lightning reaches the ground.Explain how Kakashi would be able to pinpoint the exact location a lightning bolt would fall in. Because that's what he'd need to do for your scenario to be pausible.
If he moved before that, the result would be higher, actually, since we'd need to compensate for the distance he ran. Which would easily be tens of meters.

From where do you take the information that kakashi had to ran to the lightning?

Why would he even do that, just for fun?

As I see it the reason that kakashi even bothered to perform the feat was most likely, because the lightning was going to hit him.

So he didn't have to greatly pinpoint where it stikes, because the lightning comes to him.


Also Kakashi has a sharigan, which gives some amount of predictive ability.


to b) So basically you have no argument why it should be the first one, yes?

 

[DontTalkDT]

That would be true, if this was meant to be a scientific experiment, but it is not. This is a manga written by an author with the intent of what he has written. Giving different scenarios as opposed to what the author is trying to show makes no sense.

Appeal to author intent is a moot point for calcs. It is ignored in all cases.

(Also try to proof that from "he split a lightning ones" the author intended the scenario the calc assumes.)

Edit: I added the phrase "within reasonable probability" exactly because this is fiction btw.

 

[Kepekley23]

Well, since Kakashi is going to receive MHS backwards scaling anyway, I think I don't even need to discuss this. So, I guess you won.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Hooray. Then I can finally go do my stochastics exercises <.<