King of Fighters and Samurai Showdown: High 6-A to Low 2-C overall upgrade + a possible 2-C feat.

[Bobsican]

I'm talking for an off-site user, so please be quite patient on the replies.

< 1.- In Samsho 2019, Shizuka Gozen who was corrupted by Ambriosia (who is not an "item, but a character of its own" as implied in Mizuki's profile) creates a curse in the form of a cloud storm that extends over the entire world (Proven by Charlotte, Wu-Ryuixian, Darli Dagger, Galford and Wanfu coming to the epicenter in Japan to solve it, causing "Chaos" and "Nature's balance to be disturbed" alongside wiping forests. High 6-A range for Shizuka regardless of AP.

2.- At the end of Samsho 2019, Shizuka is canonically defeated by Yashamaru Kurama in a realm called "Eternity - Sakura of Shizuka", created by Shizuka and destroyed with her death. (0:18 Haohmaru's ending states this is its own "Realm".) (This realm is shown to cover the entire world as seen in 24:33.)
This stage contains its own night sky as seen in the artbook at 4:19 , and since it is nighttime regardless of the time period of the last stage the character you played as fought at, it is reasonable to assume it has its time-space.) High 6-A to 4-A to Low 2-C.

3.- This is not an outlier. Nakoruru is shown to directly scale to Haohmaru and is the canonical heroine of Samsho 2 based on the KOF 14 defeat quote against Verse, who is stated to twist space-time from the past, present and future by its presence alone, Space time-manip to Low 2-C. 11:28

4.- Nakoruru also potentially helped defeat Kukri in SNK Heroines. first offf, SNK Heroines is NOT a dream as explained in the artbook (https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ke_qd7yJ...kCjZoACLcBGAs/s1600/snkh-64_44051779344_o.jpg) and in Nakoruru's ending (, which shows her intro and ending in KOF 14 alongside scenes from Heart and Mui Mui's original games.)
Kukri discovered a new power that let him trap the consciousness of people inside a pocket reality that contains a sun in this stage (https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-N1jVGoC0...1WWIxgCLcBGAs/s1600/snkh-80_30899730428_o.jpg) and a night sky on this one (https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Bp4-d-cL...tykNrwCLcBGAs/s1600/snkh-85_29833982857_o.jpg)
While fighting game rules might restrict the heroines from scaling to 4-C to 4-A, this power should be added to Kukri in its own key.

5.- This is also backed up by Mirror Orochi's death causing the Mirror World (a copy of the KOF universe made by the Yata Mirror) to collapse and be destroyed in KOF Sky Stage, Low 2-C for Kyo, Iori, Athena, Kula, Terry and Mai. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUIq5mc8j78 0:01 this game is considered canon by SNK and part of the KOF series at https://game.snk-corp.co.jp/official/kof-skystage/story/index.html, the translation here https://imgur.com/a/5R0Ew44 while rough, clearly references KOF 97 and the events of the NESTS saga.

6.-https://snk.fandom.com/wiki/Yuga_the_Destroyer In the story of Samsho 64 and Samsho 64 Warriors's rage Yuga merged the demon and human worlds together and planned to rule over them but was stopped by Haouhmaru the first time and Asura on the second. Just as DMC, this is legend and scales to everyone who is considered comparable to Haohmaru, such as Nakoruru and Genjuro. 2-C. >

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

This, I am interested in this even though I have zero knowledge here, the similarities to DMC you mentioned piqued my interest, I looked at it day before yesterday but couldn't comment due to time contraints.
Hopefully today I can after a reread.

 

[Zencha9]

Seems pretty good i agree

 

[Starbrand_Fan]

Makes sense to me, I agree

 

[SamanPatou]

i have little knowledge on Samsho, but it seems good.

However, I'm iffy on scaling Shizuka's creation to her overall AP, striking strength and especially other characters without proof that her creation feat scales to all of her attacks, physical or not.

Proving that it scales, through an Universal Energy Source or something else through actual proof and not just assumptions (also given that it's a huge tier jump) is also required by our creation feats rules.

Finally, I'd leave KoF scaling out of this, as it is its own universe, not related to the canon of the original verses from which each character comes from (Fatal Fury, Art of Fighting, Ikari Warriors, Samsho ec...)

 

[Bobsican]

"Nakoruru is cited to directly come from the Samurai Shodown series in the SNK Heroines artbook just like Athena is from Psycho Soldier, Yuri is from AoF and Terry is from Fatal Fury (until those verses diverge somewhat around Garou). In short, the Nakoruru we see in KOF 14 is the same character as in her original series and all feats she performs are comparable to the rest of the KOF cast. (This is also backed up in her SNK heroines ending showing her Samurai Shodown 2 ending, with her eventually returning back to the Samsho world after the KOF world is safe to become the maiden of light in Samsho 64.) Creation feats have always been considered viable forms of AP. Like with Saint Seiya's Hades. But it could be argued that part of it is amplified by Ambriosa and is not part of her usual powers even on her "corrupted" self."

(Samsho 2 Nakoruru end 2:40) (SNK Heroines Nako ending references the samsho 2 end at 0:10) Nako's origin is directly stated to be "Samurai Shodown" on the book. https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-j0715cVy...8wEI_QCLcBGAs/s1600/snkh-36_44721171222_o.jpg

 

[SamanPatou]

The artbook naming the series from which each character comes from doesn't make KoF canon to all of them, how many crossovers characters in videogames are presented to come from their original series? And we can't just make cherry picking and ignore plot differences just because Nakoruru came from another world. SNK

Heroines is also a spin-off with a weird plot and its placement within the main KoF series is dubious, most likely it's not canon. Hell, you could eve argue Kukri's creation feat and it scaling in some way to everyone because in KoF14 he was an average character.

Creation feats have been revised overtime, just like a lot of other types of feats (Cold, heat, electricity, storms, pocket dimensions, stabilization...) and Creation feats, for a good reason, now require to prove why the power used to create a world would scale to every of their physical attacks, energy attacks, durability and so on.
Other verses should be left out, they may be outdated or have genuine reasons to scale.

 

[Bobsican]

Source: http://neogeonow.com/misc/exclusive...ut-snk-heroines-kof-manga-and-anime-and-more/

"The artbook explains that Kukri obtained a power that trapped the heroine's consciousness into the pocket dimension. It has also been stated to be fully canon to the KOF series and there is no evidence for it to be a "spin-off" anyways as it also shows Shermie returning as a direct result of Verse."


0:18 "In the cutscene showing the creation of the realm, it is shown it took no more than 15 seconda to create the major structure."

0:47 "The cutscene shows that "ETERNITY" (This should refer to the place they are fighting in as it is the case with every other stage.) covers all of japan and what can be seen of China in a second, potentually the rest of the world."

2:33 "Upon entering the second phase, it is shown to change in mere seconds, showing Shizuka has direct control over every aspect of it."


Jubei's ending ststes that no aspect of the "evil" aka, Shizuka Gozen's actions, remained upon her being defeated at 0:18, implying that the world and the curse upon the entire world dissapeared upon her death.

"Also Nakoruru's SNKH ending shows images from her KOF 14 ending. Which would not make sense if the game is some non canon spin off"

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I agree with both feats.

Warping space-time on universal scale past, present and future is textbook low2C case.
Most people would ask for "past, present and future" shenanigans as stringent requirement for low2C or else this would just be 3A.
I think this is as blatant as it gets.

I agree with the merging realms too, 2C it is. And it should since I feel we should consider Human realms in fiction as standard universe sized by default, since saying Human Realm smaller than 93 Billion LY years is an abnormal case especially if the modern Earth is anything to go by then that Humanity must already know size of the universe as we in real life do. The parallel demon realm would be automatically same size as human realm. Different day-night cycles gives different time streams.
2C merger it is.

As for scaling to physicality.
I don't know much about these games, but I do know they have concept of chi/ki/Qi. Drawing power from ground to do all those Energy Geyser attacks, ranged geysers etc, same for boosted phyiscals for attack and defense.
Even the Boss Fight of Haomaru with the demom lady, involves energy attacks on both sides.
Fire swords and Darkness Fans.
So problem solved , universal energy system. Voila.

So I agree with validity of feats and phsyical scaling.

As for canonicity and stuff, I am useless there, Zero knowledge.
But MrBobsican seems to provide convincing evidence on canonicity. So there's that.

So I agree.

 

[SamanPatou]

Ok then for Heroine being canon to KoF, those are actually good and useful sources.

I'm still kinda iffy on scaling even to energy attacks, physicals and durability despite ki attacks, as them and creation hax may not be related, but I don't have anything solid to counter it, so be it.

But KoF is still not canon to Samsho afaik just like it's not canon to all other series, as it's a "mashup verse", so High 6-A to Low 2-C Nakoruru shouldn't scale to any KoF character.

 

[Bobsican]

But KoF is still not canon to Samsho afaik just like it's not canon to all other series, as it's a "mashup verse", so High 6-A to Low 2-C Nakoruru shouldn't scale to any KoF character.

"Despite it being a verse composed of several "canons" (aka a "Mashup verse") , there is nothing that implies it does not scale just like other verses, specially since the artbook clearly states the "first appearance" of heroines from different SNK games.

The Another World Team KOF 14 ending has Nakoruru state that she overestimated her own power and could not kill Verse entirely in due time, needing Love's and Pui's help.


10:12 has the master stop Nako from fighting Verse, telling her that the Japan Team has the enough power to destroy something she herself had time killing in due time, making the scaling valid.

Kyo also lost to Goenitz in 96, the Hero Team in XI and maybe to Ikari team in XII. Also, the artbook implies Kula and Athena are the canon winning pair in SNKH alongside other many instances where other non-holy treasure characters are stated to be comparable to Kyo, such as Athena, Terry, K', etc.

In short, i think it is not that much of a stretch to assume many characters directly scale to Nakoruru's High 6-A to Low 2-C based on the evidence."

 

[SamanPatou]

Scaling aside, the artbook naming their series isn't an evidence, all crossovers do that.
It would be like scaling Terry to Smash characters and bosses because Sakurai confirmed he comes from Fatal Fury.

As long as the original stories don't chronologically match or are specifically stated to be canon, they shouldn't be considered such just through an artbook.

Fatal Fury/AoF surely don't match because of Mark of the Wolves and some other, I can't speak for others as Psycho Soldier, Ikari Warriors and so on, but I think they don't match for simple lack of evidences, differences in characters backgrounds and possibly even because of the entirely different setting, which in KoF was the same.

 

[Limbless_Athena]

Source: http://neogeonow.com/misc/exclusive...ut-snk-heroines-kof-manga-and-anime-and-more/

"The artbook explains that Kukri obtained a power that trapped the heroine's consciousness into the pocket dimension. It has also been stated to be fully canon to the KOF series and there is no evidence for it to be a "spin-off" anyways as it also shows Shermie returning as a direct result of Verse."


0:18 "In the cutscene showing the creation of the realm, it is shown it took no more than 15 seconda to create the major structure."

0:47 "The cutscene shows that "ETERNITY" (This should refer to the place they are fighting in as it is the case with every other stage.) covers all of japan and what can be seen of China in a second, potentually the rest of the world."

2:33 "Upon entering the second phase, it is shown to change in mere seconds, showing Shizuka has direct control over every aspect of it."


Jubei's ending ststes that no aspect of the "evil" aka, Shizuka Gozen's actions, remained upon her being defeated at 0:18, implying that the world and the curse upon the entire world dissapeared upon her death.

"Also Nakoruru's SNKH ending shows images from her KOF 14 ending. Which would not make sense if the game is some non canon spin off"

this is a reach. SNK heroines is stated to be canon to KOF, not Samurai Showdown. Nakoruru being in this game doesn't mean it's the same exact character from SS and that feats from SS should scale, just like Akuma being in Tekken doesn't mean he's the same Akuma from Street Fighter and that the Tekken and Street Fighter top tiers suddenly scale to each other.

 

[Bobsican]

this is a reach. SNK heroines is stated to be canon to KOF, not Samurai Showdown. Nakoruru being in this game doesn't mean it's the same exact character from SS and that feats from SS should scale, just like Akuma being in Tekken doesn't mean he's the same Akuma from Street Fighter and that the Tekken and Street Fighter top tiers suddenly scale to each other.

"Is isn't a reach.

Not only it is stated in the artbook that Nakoruru comes from Samsho directly and states an in-verse reasom for her to be there, you have ignored the fact that her Heroines ending shows her Samsho 2 ending, alongside her defeat quote against Verse is directly lifted from Mizuki from the original samsho world.

Since this scales to everyone in the verse that is from another game, Terry's ending in SNKH referenes Fatal Fury 2 + Garou , Yuri's ending references Art of Fighting and Ryo appears in Fatal Fury special and several other fatal fury games as a canon part of the global chronology despite being from another "series". , Athena's KOF 94 intro references her outfit from Psycho Soldier and calls herself that several times in the series. The Ikari Warriors also reference their war efforts several times in the series.

The only two SNK properties not linked in canon with KOF are Metal Slug and Last Blade, but that is besides the point. Nakoruru has a canon explanation for being in KOF for both her KOF14 and SNKH endings, the artbook and in-game appearance. And every other "verse" in the artbook is considered canon to KOF regardless of personal opinion, so the same should apply to Samsho regardless."

 

[SamanPatou]

None of those is an evidence that everything is canon to KoF.

Nakoruru coming from another world isn't anything special, tens of crossover characters are summoned into another world via space-time shenanigans, this doesn't make their crossover appearances canon to their original series. She comes from a medieval franchise, which probably is the reason she wasn't in KoF from the beginning just like all other characters.

And KoF having references to each game isn't proof of canonicity either, these characters are still supposed to live their lives and referencing the original material is still another very common trope in crossover games, where characters come, do their stuff and then return to their old world/life, doing what they were doing.

Ralf and Clark talk about wars because they are soldiers, that's their characterization.

And still, the artbook mentioning Nakoruru's original series isn't proof of canonicity either, I've already talked about this.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

This stage contains its own night sky as seen in the artbook at 4:19

I can't read anything in this video

 

[BlackDarkness679]

First of all SNK doesnt count all their properties appearing in KOF as entirely canon, FF series excludes stuff like Geese death in his series in KOF

Also iirc Nakoruru doesnt come from that point in time with all these supposed high 6-A to tier 2 levels, she comes from earlier points of samsho, also Team Japan wouldnt scale to Verse individually, so trying to have Kyo allow others scaling to this is faulty

 

[Bobsican]

"It is unreasonable to expect a decade old series to reference the events of KOF 14 or SNK Heroines. The facts are that the artbook clearly refers to Nakoruru's first appearance and game of origin to be Samurai Shodown just like Athena is from Psycho Soldier and Yuri is from Art of Fighting, which were separate continuities until being placed in KOF.

This is no different than Donkey Kong becoming canon to the Mario series or Dragon FighterZ being a continuation of the Dragon Ball Super Anime despite being its separate timeline on this wiki based on references and statements from the game itself and never stated to have happened in the DB Super anime.

In short, her SNKH Ending shows her end from Samsho2, the boss loss quote against Verse in KOF 14 is lifted from Samsho2, her ending in KOF 14 and the artbook backstory reference her original world and the reason why she came to the KOF universe.

-----

Regardless, before we discuss any further, is it reasonable for her profile to be changed to reflect the new tierings in a new "Samurai Shodown" key?

Also some special abilities that should be added are: Fire Manipulation (Mamahaha can turn into a fire projectile,
1:25), resistance to transmutation (all fighters that get turned into pigs by Mizuki return to normal shortly after 2:12), limited flight (with Mamahaha) materialization and multiple personalities (Rera can manifest herself outside of Nakoruru's body and act on her own.), possible omnipresence as a "Spirit of Nature" and additional help from Shikuru (Rera's and Nakoruru's companion wolf, which they can mount for additonal speed)"

"edit. Some extra things.

1.- The high 6-A to Low 2-C feat comes from Samsho 2019 by Shizuka, who is empowered by the same evil demon the bosses from samsho 1 and samsho 2.

The canon winner of the Samsho 2 game is Nakoruru based on the defeat quote against verse in KOF 14, which is Mizuki from samsho 2.(https://snk.fandom.com/wiki/Verse/Quotes)
The SNKH artbook and her ending there also show her as the canon winner of samsho 2, who defeated someone comparable to Mizuki while also being comparable to Haohmaru, who is comparable to the hero of Samsho 2019.

2.- If you cannot see the video well, the night sky can also be seen in this higher res picture from the artbook.

3.- First off, Nakoruru has been in every single Samurai Shodown game, and the feat comes from Samsho 2019, which is the second in the timeline, so "Nakoruru doesnt come from that point in time with all these supposed high 6-A to tier 2 levels, she comes from earlier points of samsho" is not correct.
And scaling Low 2-C to Team Japan/Hero/Special Invitation/Another world is due to Nakoruru not being able to kill Verse as soon as she intended to.
Also, we do give tierings to group efforts, such is the same case with Sephiroth in FF7 giving Cloud/Tifa/Barret 4-A. ("Multi-Solar System level (Was instrumental to Sephiroth's defeat at the Planet's Core."), and that was by at least 6 people fighting at once.

KOF Sky Stage also backs this up with the Low 2-C mirror universe feat."

 

[Limbless_Athena]

"It is unreasonable to expect a decade old series to reference the events of KOF 14 or SNK Heroines. The facts are that the artbook clearly refers to Nakoruru's first appearance and game of origin to be Samurai Shodown just like Athena is from Psycho Soldier and Yuri is from Art of Fighting, which were separate continuities until being placed in KOF.

This is no different than Donkey Kong becoming canon to the Mario series or Dragon FighterZ being a continuation of the Dragon Ball Super Anime despite being its separate timeline on this wiki based on references and statements from the game itself and never stated to have happened in the DB Super anime.

In short, her SNKH Ending shows her end from Samsho2, the boss loss quote against Verse in KOF 14 is lifted from Samsho2, her ending in KOF 14 and the artbook backstory reference her original world and the reason why she came to the KOF universe.

-----

Regardless, before we discuss any further, is it reasonable for her profile to be changed to reflect the new tierings in a new "Samurai Shodown" key?

Also some special abilities that should be added are: Fire Manipulation (Mamahaha can turn into a fire projectile,
1:25), resistance to transmutation (all fighters that get turned into pigs by Mizuki return to normal shortly after 2:12), limited flight (with Mamahaha) materialization and multiple personalities (Rera can manifest herself outside of Nakoruru's body and act on her own.), possible omnipresence as a "Spirit of Nature" and additional help from Shikuru (Rera's and Nakoruru's companion wolf, which they can mount for additonal speed)"

"edit. Some extra things.

1.- The high 6-A to Low 2-C feat comes from Samsho 2019 by Shizuka, who is empowered by the same evil demon the bosses from samsho 1 and samsho 2.

The canon winner of the Samsho 2 game is Nakoruru based on the defeat quote against verse in KOF 14, which is Mizuki from samsho 2.(https://snk.fandom.com/wiki/Verse/Quotes)
The SNKH artbook and her ending there also show her as the canon winner of samsho 2, who defeated someone comparable to Mizuki while also being comparable to Haohmaru, who is comparable to the hero of Samsho 2019.

2.- If you cannot see the video well, the night sky can also be seen in this higher res picture from the artbook.

3.- First off, Nakoruru has been in every single Samurai Shodown game, and the feat comes from Samsho 2019, which is the second in the timeline, so "Nakoruru doesnt come from that point in time with all these supposed high 6-A to tier 2 levels, she comes from earlier points of samsho" is not correct.
And scaling Low 2-C to Team Japan/Hero/Special Invitation/Another world is due to Nakoruru not being able to kill Verse as soon as she intended to.
Also, we do give tierings to group efforts, such is the same case with Sephiroth in FF7 giving Cloud/Tifa/Barret 4-A. ("Multi-Solar System level (Was instrumental to Sephiroth's defeat at the Planet's Core."), and that was by at least 6 people fighting at once.

KOF Sky Stage also backs this up with the Low 2-C mirror universe feat."

you're just repeating and rewording things you've already said now.

 

[Bobsican]

you're just repeating and rewording things you've already said now.

"Sorry about that, if i have repeated some argument, it either has not been addressed accordingly or i have not seen a proper rebuttal for it to be dismissed."
"Could you please be more specific?"

 

[BlackDarkness679]

"It is unreasonable to expect a decade old series to reference the events of KOF 14 or SNK Heroines. The facts are that the artbook clearly refers to Nakoruru's first appearance and game of origin to be Samurai Shodown just like Athena is from Psycho Soldier and Yuri is from Art of Fighting, which were separate continuities until being placed in KOF.

This is no different than Donkey Kong becoming canon to the Mario series or Dragon FighterZ being a continuation of the Dragon Ball Super Anime despite being its separate timeline on this wiki based on references and statements from the game itself and never stated to have happened in the DB Super anime.

In short, her SNKH Ending shows her end from Samsho2, the boss loss quote against Verse in KOF 14 is lifted from Samsho2, her ending in KOF 14 and the artbook backstory reference her original world and the reason why she came to the KOF universe.

-----

Regardless, before we discuss any further, is it reasonable for her profile to be changed to reflect the new tierings in a new "Samurai Shodown" key?

Also some special abilities that should be added are: Fire Manipulation (Mamahaha can turn into a fire projectile,
1:25), resistance to transmutation (all fighters that get turned into pigs by Mizuki return to normal shortly after 2:12), limited flight (with Mamahaha) materialization and multiple personalities (Rera can manifest herself outside of Nakoruru's body and act on her own.), possible omnipresence as a "Spirit of Nature" and additional help from Shikuru (Rera's and Nakoruru's companion wolf, which they can mount for additonal speed)"

"edit. Some extra things.

1.- The high 6-A to Low 2-C feat comes from Samsho 2019 by Shizuka, who is empowered by the same evil demon the bosses from samsho 1 and samsho 2.

The canon winner of the Samsho 2 game is Nakoruru based on the defeat quote against verse in KOF 14, which is Mizuki from samsho 2.(https://snk.fandom.com/wiki/Verse/Quotes)
The SNKH artbook and her ending there also show her as the canon winner of samsho 2, who defeated someone comparable to Mizuki while also being comparable to Haohmaru, who is comparable to the hero of Samsho 2019.

2.- If you cannot see the video well, the night sky can also be seen in this higher res picture from the artbook.

3.- First off, Nakoruru has been in every single Samurai Shodown game, and the feat comes from Samsho 2019, which is the second in the timeline, so "Nakoruru doesnt come from that point in time with all these supposed high 6-A to tier 2 levels, she comes from earlier points of samsho" is not correct.
And scaling Low 2-C to Team Japan/Hero/Special Invitation/Another world is due to Nakoruru not being able to kill Verse as soon as she intended to.
Also, we do give tierings to group efforts, such is the same case with Sephiroth in FF7 giving Cloud/Tifa/Barret 4-A. ("Multi-Solar System level (Was instrumental to Sephiroth's defeat at the Planet's Core."), and that was by at least 6 people fighting at once.

KOF Sky Stage also backs this up with the Low 2-C mirror universe feat."

Yeah no, you just start to find excuses to wank it to your liking

Nothing shows she comes from that point besides baseless assumptions

And no, you dont scale like that, if all Teams were individually as strong as her or Verse, there would be no need for tag teaming then, its one low 2-C vs three low 2-C, you dont scale them to the AP individually and neither durability, it causes scaling issues and FF example is just as bad too if thats the case

 

[SamanPatou]

The artbook referencing the origin of each character doesn't make all of them canon anyway, like, all crossover characters are always presented as "X person from Y series".

The examples brought up don't work, we still don't scale anime DBS to FighterZ, as it's an alternate continiuity, and the same is for DK and Wario, who retained keys for their own series.
But again, all crossover characters pop up in another game with their past accounted, either if they come from another dimension or are native of the game in which they appear.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Also someone i know who looked into the SNK stuff adressed the samsho crosscaling and sky temple thing, imma just quote his stuff

"The most infamous is scaling the King of Fighters cast to Samurai Shodown due to Nakoruru’s appearance. And at first glance, this seems plausible, Nakoruru gets isekai’d into King of Fighters. She should bring her powers and feats with her. However, consider the fact that Nakoruru is in King of Fighters after her ascension to a spirit of Nature. This would place her right after Mizuki Rashojin’s defeat in Samurai Shodown II….


You know the game where she sacrifices herself. It’s retconned for her to have actually lived in later entries but she does relatively nothing against the battle for Yuga. Her endings for that matter aren’t really all that informative. When she’s approached to become the next successor of mother nature in later installments, she all but rejects it. She’s more of a protector that is in tune with the spirits of nature than an entire goddess. Not to mention that scaling to Yuga’s “Small Country storms” requires an assumption that the storm was planetary in size. Nakoruru doesn’t fully scale to Yuga in Samurai Shodown proper, so why would she scale in King of Fighters?


Nakoruru has had a very small role in King of Fighters so far. She’s only been there to fight alongside some people and warn others about Verse. For this matter, I think it’s best to treat Nakoruru the same way people treat Akuma in Tekken. The only reason we say “Tekken!Akuma” is because his appearance is far removed from the series. But nothing actually implies this is a new Akuma altogether. It’s just weird and we don’t like it.


They may be the same character, but it’s a different version and they shouldn’t bring their native series’ feats with them"


"First of all, the canonicity of Sky Stage within King of Fighters is debatable. The game combines elements of the Orochi and NESTS Sagas to tell an alternative story of Kagura giving them a mission to stop Orochi. This isn’t at all how it went down. Basically, the game is ‘96-’97 but we need a reason for them to fly. Speaking of which, Chizuru Kagura grants the fighters the power of flight and the ability to fight demons and wraiths. Normally, the extent of their powers is not this ludicrous. Third of all, the most we get is that Orochi is defeated and then an orb collapses. Is that orb planet-sized? Is the dimensional prison orb-shaped? No indication that it’s the former besides vague statements. So you need positive interpretations of the game to argue this. Other than that, the fact the story isn’t original should be enough to discount it. Very flimsy, at best."

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Also crosscaling should be allowed or possibility only if both agree their franchises are canon to each other

Like how MK and Injustice are cuz both of them acknowledge the other, let alone their crossover, let alone confirmation with WoG

Or SF with rival schools and final fight, with them acknowledging they live in the series and so on

Samsho with KOF just doesnt work and already said earlier, many of these properties get retconned to fit KOF lore, unless you wanna tell me Geese somehow returned from death when that was meant as his end in fatal fury

 

[Limbless_Athena]

Nakoruru has had a very small role in King of Fighters so far. She’s only been there to fight alongside some people and warn others about Verse. For this matter, I think it’s best to treat Nakoruru the same way people treat Akuma in Tekken. The only reason we say “Tekken!Akuma” is because his appearance is far removed from the series. But nothing actually implies this is a new Akuma altogether. It’s just weird and we don’t like it.


They may be the same character, but it’s a different version and they shouldn’t bring their native series’ feats with them"

Thank you!

 

[Bobsican]

1.-You are misinformed. Nakoru does return in later entries such as Warrior's Rage and Samsho 64, but her role in 64 was completely irrelevant to the plot at hand (Yuga wanting to take Haohmaru's and Shiki's bodies to rule the two merged worlds.) and she becomes a "Maiden of Light" (she is made unable to have a physical form by magical spell cast by Jigen Taishi in Ritenkyo and ends up like this https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/s...-spirit.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20080317004631) and asks the now old Haohmaru to free Rimururu from her crystal prison.

In short, KOF does not contradict anything. She is just no longer as important as she was in Samsho 1 and 2.

Yuga's major feat is merging the human and demon worlds, which is 2-C as seen with Sparda in DMC. I have no idea where you got that he made a country level storm from.
(https://snk.fandom.com/wiki/Yuga_the_Destroyer)

2.-You have made a mistake using that manga scan about Nakoruru warning people of verse since the manga is a separate continuity.

The manga's ending contradicts the plot of KOF 14 and Heroines since Love and Mui Mui are NOT present in any way, Nakoruru goes back to her world in the end instead of staying like in SNKH, (CHAPTER 64 page 9.) the cast kills the shadows that emerge from verse and whats worse, the cast of SAMURAI SHODOWN literally comes back and assists the KOF cast fight the shadows. So the manga actually shows them all to be even more comparable. (CHAPTER 61 page 1 and CHAPTER 62 page 15 onwards.)

So please do not use the manga for the game's continuity.

3.- The Tag Team mechanic is an in-lore requirement for teams in the KOF series as shown with the intro to KOF 94, so using it as a requirement the characters themselves chose for themselves is wrong.



4.- The reason Android 21 is 3-A is because she is compared to the Anime version of Super Saiyan Blue Goku from the resurrection F Saga, as indicated on her profile. "(Comparable to Super Saiyan Goku after the events of Resurrection of F)"
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Android_21

5.- The same goes for FF7. We DID scale Cloud and the rest to Sephiroth by being able to injure him. The difference in numbers makes no difference in scaling one character to another. "(Was instrumental to Sephiroth's defeat at the Planet's Core"
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Cloud_Strife_(Final_Fantasy)

6.- Sky Stage is still considered to have taken place after the NESTS saga and there is nothing that contradicts that. The Orochi they fight is NOT the same orochi they fight in KOF 97, but a Mirror parallel. (This is also not the first time SNK has used Orochi clones as seen in NEO GEO BATTLE COLOSSEUM.)

6.1 - The reason behind Kagura's powers is irrelevant since we can see her create illusions, clone herself and levitate in some occasions even during combat, also her power are literally stated to be to seal Orochi away.

Athena also wasn’t brought into the plan and decided to fight against Mirror Orochi on her own anyways since she can already fly. (As shown in Psycho soldier)

6.2 - the reason for the mirror world to be collapsing is stated to be Mirror Orochi's death as seen in most endings.



(27:34 and 28:49, if you want me to look for more endings, let me know. But i think this point has been proven.)

7.- Rival Schools scaling to Street Fighter should not be valid in that case since there has not been a new rival schools that references the events of SFV. (Sakura is no proof of this since she is in the game as a secret character and does not participate on the battle between the schools at all)

In any case, Samsho 1 does feature a cameo of Mai Shiranui from Fatal Fury in Haohmaru's and green monster guy's ending. But i thought we agreed that references and easter eggs were not enough to cross scale a verse.

( 0:49 and 7:19)

8.- The only difference between Fatal Fury and KOF's timelines is that Geese survived and reappeared in KOF14.
Geese's death in the KOFverse is based on the Real bout remakes of the Fatal fury games too (As shown in Terry's SNKH ending) so you should prove that those are not a new continuity that fits a lot nicer with KOF for your argument to be reasonable.

You have also not adressed that Garou did happen in the KOF timeline as shown in KOF XI and Terrys SNKH ending.

--- IMPORTANT NOTE ---

PLEASE address all points, as it took me a lot of effort to look for all of this. Out of respect i beg you to not just ignore parts that might hurt your argument.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Yuga's major feat is merging the human and demon worlds, which is 2-C as seen with Sparda in DMC. I have no idea where you got that he made a country level storm from.
(https://snk.fandom.com/wiki/Yuga_the_Destroyer)

Just a tiny slight correction, all the merging feats are solely attributed to Mundus and his alternate version, and Argosax.
Sparda and Pluto are the ones who separate.
But yeah in spirit both are same kind of feats.

And Yuga is surprisingly similar case, just that DMC villains can just merge on a whim not needing these elaborate plans to gain power first.

5.- The same goes for FF7. We DID scale Cloud and the rest to Sephiroth by being able to injure him. The difference in numbers makes no difference in scaling one character to another. "(Was instrumental to Sephiroth's defeat at the Planet's Core"
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Cloud_Strife_(Final_Fantasy)

Yeah in group fights against single villain, individuals still end up scaling to main baddie cuz they can still hurt them one on one in some capacity, besides you don't divide AP and stuff between individuals of a group without direct evidence of such, one of the reasons Beerus and Champa are not "Half 2C" anymore.
So individuals will downscale very slightly in my opinions but still same tier. Especially in low2C tier.

6.2 - the reason for the mirror world to be collapsing is stated to be Mirror Orochi's death as seen in most endings.

A sustenance feat, since this is in a short timeframes(minutes as far as I see) and structure is low2C. It will fit our recent standards imo.

--------------------------------
Rest still flies over my head, I have never dealt with these crossover/canonicity issues to be of any use here.
But as far as my small brain can understand, SNK verse and SS verse are like 2 parallel timelimes where the cast interact and fight with each other enough that relevant chracters can scale. We do allow scaling for direct interactions after all even if they are across timelines. So I see no problem in this.

 

[SamanPatou]

About FighterZ, 21 scales to the anime but not the other way around, it's a one way non-canon crossover.

About Rival Schools, it does indeed scale, Akira is coming to SFV and Capcom's team directly stated during the summer update that the universe is the same. (we also have other sources as profiles from the Shadaloo CRI, but we are derailing).
It's totally different from KoF, in which all series are merged into a new reality that features part of each story, but it's not the same as Rival Schools and Final Fight in Street Fighter.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

1) Sparda and DMC as a whole is at these levels cuz the worlds are stated to be universes in size and supported as such, you dont give anything called realm or world a universe without proof, else MK and DAL would be at tier 3/2 levels at this moment

2) doesnt change the fact she came only cuz of Verse in KOF not anything else

3) and how is that helping your case?

4) dragon ball has legitimate alternate timelines and universes, branching from a point in canon or such, heroes anime branches from the super anime, the z movies follow from the anime, GT is a sequel to Z separate from Super, not a good example from you, dragon ball can scale from canon cuz they are a branch from the main one and a multiverse in the series exists, KOF doesnt at least bring better examples

5) except it does, if each one scales to the one they fight, that means alone they could win on their own, teams of characters on the same league as the one they fight would mean the team should stop or win rather easy and again just cuz Final Fantasy does it, that wont mean you apply it to each verse now to get everyone and their mothers at same rating, difference in power exists even between those in same tier

6) says you? You didnt adress this at all just wank it, you need concrete proof on that and there aint as far as it gies now, your other points are also irrelevant

7) cameos/easter eggs =/= character appearing in most games of that other series and having nods to each other, you dont know anything if you claim such a stupid thing

8) you realize KOF didnt explain how Geese survived from FF if you count his death canon? The burden of proof is on you, also not all endings of a game are canon, whats your reason to use terry ending to begin with and even if it happened it contradicts the canon for the reason Geese died yet it still around with no canon evidence, unless Geese is just a what if character in all these abd is still dead, yet thats not the case either

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Also Nakoruru appeared now in the most recent games only, 2 atm and one of them just cuz of Verse, meanwhile Sakura, Cody, Poison etc have appeared more times and are a staple

And more in the tier 2 shenanigans, to get such a tier you need on a universal scale to affect these to be an argument, you dont see any verse with space-time abilities get that, Naruto and DAL would get these by your logic and they have more stuff to suggest, yet are still rejected after countless arguments, why KOF should be special?

 

[N-nani]

The feats have enough evidence on their own (though I don't know how I feel about cross scaling everything in KOF) so I'll agree to the Samsho upgrade for sure.
KOF has 15 still coming out and I honestly think we'll get alot of information from that just by watching the trailers.
This thread also further proves the messiness of fighting game lore

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Hunterzillas]

Bump?

 

[The_Smashor]

Bump.

 

[The_Smashor]

Alright, I'm gonna put my ten cents in for each point in the original post.

1.- In Samsho 2019, Shizuka Gozen who was corrupted by Ambriosia (who is not an "item, but a character of its own" as implied in Mizuki's profile) creates a curse in the form of a cloud storm that extends over the entire world (Proven by Charlotte, Wu-Ryuixian, Darli Dagger, Galford and Wanfu coming to the epicenter in Japan to solve it, causing "Chaos" and "Nature's balance to be disturbed" alongside wiping forests. High 6-A range for Shizuka regardless of AP.

Makes sense.

2.- At the end of Samsho 2019, Shizuka is canonically defeated by Yashamaru Kurama in a realm called "Eternity - Sakura of Shizuka", created by Shizuka and destroyed with her death. (0:18 Haohmaru's ending states this is its own "Realm".) (This realm is shown to cover the entire world as seen in 24:33.)
This stage contains its own night sky as seen in the artbook at 4:19 , and since it is nighttime regardless of the time period of the last stage the character you played as fought at, it is reasonable to assume it has its time-space.) High 6-A to 4-A to Low 2-C.

Covering the entire would would be High 6-A. 4-A and Low 2-C needs more stuff to support it however, due to recent standards changes for starry skies.

3.- This is not an outlier. Nakoruru is shown to directly scale to Haohmaru and is the canonical heroine of Samsho 2 based on the KOF 14 defeat quote against Verse, who is stated to twist space-time from the past, present and future by its presence alone, Space time-manip to Low 2-C.

IDK if twisting Space-Time is Low 2-C.

4.- Nakoruru also potentially helped defeat Kukri in SNK Heroines. first offf, SNK Heroines is NOT a dream as explained in the artbook (https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ke_qd7yJ...kCjZoACLcBGAs/s1600/snkh-64_44051779344_o.jpg) and in Nakoruru's ending (, which shows her intro and ending in KOF 14 alongside scenes from Heart and Mui Mui's original games.)
Kukri discovered a new power that let him trap the consciousness of people inside a pocket reality that contains a sun in this stage (https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-N1jVGoC0...1WWIxgCLcBGAs/s1600/snkh-80_30899730428_o.jpg) and a night sky on this one (https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Bp4-d-cL...tykNrwCLcBGAs/s1600/snkh-85_29833982857_o.jpg)
While fighting game rules might restrict the heroines from scaling to 4-C to 4-A, this power should be added to Kukri in its own key.

The Night Sky dosn't appear to have any stars, unfortunately, so the 4-A's probably a bust.

5.- This is also backed up by Mirror Orochi's death causing the Mirror World (a copy of the KOF universe made by the Yata Mirror) to collapse and be destroyed in KOF Sky Stage, Low 2-C for Kyo, Iori, Athena, Kula, Terry and Mai. 0:01 this game is considered canon by SNK and part of the KOF series at https://game.snk-corp.co.jp/official/kof-skystage/story/index.html, the translation here while rough, clearly references KOF 97 and the events of the NESTS saga.

Do you have a scan that proves that the Mirror World is a copy of the entire KOF universe? (Sorry if you already posted it). Also, weren't characters buffed by Chizuru at the time? Kyo and Iori might still get it thanks to scaling to her directly, but the others are a bit iffy.

6.-https://snk.fandom.com/wiki/Yuga_the_Destroyer In the story of Samsho 64 and Samsho 64 Warriors's rage Yuga merged the demon and human worlds together and planned to rule over them but was stopped by Haouhmaru the first time and Asura on the second. Just as DMC, this is legend and scales to everyone who is considered comparable to Haohmaru, such as Nakoruru and Genjuro. 2-C. >

Seems legit enough.

 

[Bobsican]

1.-Glad to agree on range regardless of AP. It is also backed up by the pre-battle cutscene here



20:55, where the realm "Eternity" covers the entire screen.

2.- Shizuka's realm will always be at "night" regardless of the last stage before facing her, since it is a separate realm based on Haohmaru's ending.



I'd say it is Low 2-C. it is also destroyed upon her death in Junbei's ending. "Leaving no trace upon its retreat."



I'd say that it is "At least High 6-A, possibly Low 2-C" since i can understand there is some doubt about it having its own time-space.

3.- Verse and those that defeated him being Low 2-C is backed up by Nakoruru if she is considered Low 2-C in Samsho and KOF Sky Stage, but, that is still in discussion in this thread.

4.- Since my last reply, i found new evidence for Kukri's realm to be 4-A



Upon defeating him, the realm collapses upon itself and at 2:30 a starry sky filled with stars is clearly visible.

5.- I do not know why it shouldn't be a complete copy of the realm, but i will look into it. Most characters were indeed empowered by Chizuru, but only implied to have been given the power of flight except for Athena, who could already fly on her own and was not part of the plan as shown in her story mode. (the Mirror World creates a copy Athena that tells her only three treasure users should try to fight Mirror Orochi



2:48)

6.- Then Haohmaru and the protagonist of Samsho 64/warriors rage should have a "possibly 2-C" on a "end of series" key. "Was able to defeat Yuga the Destroyer, who was planning to merge the demon and human realms together." I will also look into this game's plot since it is quite obscure. (like the rest of the series.)

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Why this wasnt left dead...

 

[Hunterzillas]

Bump.

Should this just stay dead? Low 2-C looks weak, but there appeared to be some points for High 6-A.

 

[Bobsican]

Here are the changes being proposed.
1- This Samsho 2019 feat would make anyone that scales to a user of the power of the evil god Ambriosa. (Shizuka, Mizuki, Amakusa, etc.) High 6-A (based on the size of "eternity") to Low 2-C. (based on the fact it has its own time-space.)

This would include Haohmaru (Who has defeated Amakusa), Shiki (who is considered Haohmaru's female comparable by Yuga the Destroyer.) and Nakoruru (based on her SNK Heroines ending showing that she defeated Mizuki and became a nature spirit like in her Samsho 2 ending).

If this applies to the KOF cast by being comparable to Nakoruru is up if the staff considers KOF Nakoruru and Samsho Nakoruru to be the same character as stated in the SNK heroines Artbook.

2.- Kukri's dimension creation feat is 4-A creation feat (as shown above).
This tiering would only apply to him due to fighting game final boss rules on a exclusive key.

3.- KOF Sky Stage would make all featured KOF characters low 2-C by triggering and suriving the Mirror World's destruction but its canonicity is in doubt.