King Sombra saves Equestria (part 1)

[MrKerf]

What? How is it headcanon? In both instances only the "active" magic was able to come through magic negating shards. Combine that with Chrysi's words and you'll get what you'll get.

Well, to me it's clearly the same as when she was opening the entrance downstairs.

Cadence's special trait is love, she is in the tier of her own with emotions. She is an exception. Just as Starlight.

Don't see your point about Luna though.

 

[MrKerf]

You know what, perhaps we should ask someone for a second opinion.

 

[Lightbuster30]

I only recall one instance where magic shattered the shards. Wait, do you mean Starlight? She's weaker than Chrysalis or any of the three vilains. Close in power, but beneath them nonetheless. That was pure PIS. She's not strong enough to break them normally, or use her magic on them.

Uh, no...? The first time she does it after remembering what Celestia said about hatred and fear. The first time we see her grimace and strain. The second time she is audibly getting frustrated by the door. It's impossible not to notice she's getting angry. There's a very clear difference between the first and second times.

Cadance is not a changeling. She can't absorb love for herself from others, all she's been shown to do is make people fall in love. That's it. She and Shining armor empowered themselves because of their love for each other.

Luna said that she lost "dark powers" she had as Nightmare Moon after getting purified by the Elements. But according to Jim Miller, Nightmare Moon is nothing more than an alter ego created by Luna.

 

[MrKerf]

Yes, she wasn't shattered the shard. She destroed only Chrysi's webs. But her magic did came through the anti-magic field.

I would argue that it is still the strain face, just a bit different.

Of course she isn't. But she is the "alicorn of love", per say, so it's not that surprising, that she was able to use the power of love.

Still, I don't see your point. I mean, fine, I guess, but..?

 

[Lightbuster30]

I understand that, hence why I called it PIS. It's an omnidirectional wave of magic and somehow didn;t get negged. This is despite the fact that the wave even bypassed crystals at the edge of it, where the waves power would be weakest.

She was straining because she was getting pissed off and because she's having a hard time catching the door. The first time was strain from effort trying to cast dark magic. The second was from anger. It's not "a bit different" it's a lotta different.

Doesn't mean she can empower herself or other people with it for the reasons you think she can.

If Nightmare Moon was born out of resentment towards her sister, then where did those powers come from? She's an angry alter ego. There's no sensible explaination for where she got those extra powers. Based on my preconceptions of magic, it makes sense for emotions causing her to use dark magic.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Oh and for the record, Celestia wasn't completely showing Twilight what happens when a tyrant rules. She literally means that magic is influenced by emotions. She's showing what happens to both the Empire and magic when hatred and fear takes hold, not one or the other. hence why her magic turns dark as soon as she mentions it. Virtually every instance of Dark Magic being cast has the user strain a make a face that is visibly angry, Twilight and the door being the most cut and dry examples.

 

[MrKerf]

You calling it a pis because you don't even trying to consider my words. If we are assuming, that shards block only the magic of living, not an energy projected from somewhere else, than it all makes perfect sense. And both blasts, and Chrysi's words make sense.

I'm watching this scene again and again and I'm failing to see it. But even if it is an anger, I still would argue that she just realised that dark magic is a key. Plus, let's be real, this is not the first or last time Twi is angry. And it's not even her angriest form.

Why not? She is the only pony with the talent of "Love". You can't say what she can and what she can't do.You're saying this from the perspective that your point of view is already right.

Oh, that's what you meant. I summon the power of plot. I mean, even if the emotions thing is true, it still would hardly explain how she got new abilities.

Disagree. She is literally saying that any emotional events that are happening in the crystal empire reflects on all of Equestria (I would assume, it's because of crystal heart).

 

[Lightbuster30]

I call it PIS because thats what it is. How do you think blast waves work? They get weaker as they travel farther, and were cast by someone already weaker than the trio. Oh, and for the record, the throne can negate active spells. RIP Discord's flying pigs. I still haven't seen a counter to the fact that one of the components of magic is the users life force.

I don't see how you can't. I suppose, so, but it's not the first time her emotional state messed with her magic. She couldn't even stop herself from auto-teleporting in the Season 4 finale and was flinging the Sun and Moon around uncontrollably, then is able to teleport just fine after getting angry at Tirek. Then you have her firing much bigger magic blasts than normal against the Roc when it is trying to kidnap Rarity.

I'm saying what she can or can't do based on what we've seen her do. Scenes like sharing her love with Shining Armor to boost his magic and vice versa an episode later can be interpreted either way if you ask for my take on things.

If the dark magic thing is true, then it would explain how she got new abilities. Sombra ain't the only one who can turn intangible.

Which doesn't counter my point that most instances of dark magic have it being cast with the caster showing a face of anger, an emotion Celestia brought up in her demonstartion.

 

[Iisdude1]

I voted for Sombra but due to experience, since cozy is just a filly and though she is very smart, she's still not a very good fighter, he also might be a better planner then chrysalis, though he only conquered canterlot so quickly because the princesses went there. He can still distract them with their fears, and then it would be easier for getting up close to fear hax them.

And when does Sombra need a projectile to use his illusions, it seens like when twilight opens the door it just, sort of happened.he also didn't use it against Celestia and Luna because his defeat was almost instant, chrysalis and cozy don't have sealing like the alicorns used to seal away sombras soul in ice.

 

[Lightbuster30]

I voted for Sombra but due to experienced.

He can still distract them with their fears, and then it would be easier for getting up close to fear hax them.

And when does Sombra need a projectile to use his illusions,

it seens like when twilight opens the door it just, sort of happened.

he also didn't use it against Celestia and Luna because his defeat was almost instant, chrysalis and cozy don't have sealing like the alicorns that they used to seal away sombras soul in ice.

You'd have to explain why experience is a good enough thing to let him win. Simply saying "more experienced" doesn't tell me how he's going to win.

How does that even work? He distracts them with fears, then gets up close and personal to hit them with more fears?

Since every time he's cast a fear spell he's done it by sending out slow moving energy eyes? That's literally the only way we've seen him cast it. Well, that and his helmets.

The door reacted to Twilight trying to magic it. It avoided her until she cornered it by hitting the crystal on it's arc, and the door responded with an illusion. Doesn't mean Sombra can do the same thing. If he could he would've done so.

You have no clue how long the fight went on for or how it went down. All that was shown was the end of the fight. Not how it started or the middle parts.

 

[Iisdude1]

He might have an experience advantage, I then pointed out that the alicorns were gone, which could have something to do with him taking it over so quickly.

Chrysalis and cozy will have their guard down

He uses the eyes for mind control, besides if they are in an illusion they won't be able to see the helmets.

He did do so, he used twilights feats against her besides he was basically locked out of the crystal empire.

 

[MrKerf]

No, it's not. Chrysi's web can be destroyed even by low-tier magic (like Twi did back at the wedding). So yeah, blast gets weaker, but it still enough to destroy her webs. And yes, the throne indeed can negate active spells, but shards can't. They are much weaker in their capacity.

She started to use teleport properly before she was angry at Tirek. She was just lacking focus and control. Don't remeber who Roc is.

Another stalemate.

Again, even if she got an alter ego via emotions, the fact that this ego gain some new magic powers is just weird on a pis level.

I mean, not really in most. Twi was using it a fair amount of times and was more just struggling. And Sombra, arguably, was very rarely angry.

 

[MrKerf]

Also I'm late with my answer, due to rewatching some scenes.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Feels wierd that her webs and cocoons couldn't be broken by Celestia then. Both in her first and future versions. Weaker yes, but that doesn;t mean they lose the capacity to negate active magic. As you said, they are simply weaker. Oh, and for the record, the could block active spells such as teleportation even when fragmented.

Exactly my point. Her anger gave her more focus and control. The Roc is a giant bird the size of a truck. Attacked because Spike was molting and took Rarity. Twilight glares at the thing after Spike tells her what happened and starts firing magic blasts much bigger than normal at the thing.

Fair enough I suppose.

Celestia was visibly angry and not straining. That was clear cut anger and not strain.

 

[Iisdude1]

He might have an experience advantage, I then pointed out that the alicorns were gone, which could have something to do with him taking it over so quickly.

Chrysalis and cozy will have their guard down

He uses the eyes for mind control, besides if they are in an illusion they won't be able to see the helmets.

He did do so, he used twilights feats against her besides he was basically locked out of the crystal empire.

 

[Lightbuster30]

It's difficult reponding to multiple arguments at a time you know.

 

[Iisdude1]

Sorry, I thought you might have accidentally went over it.

 

[MrKerf]

Cocoons are the plot helpers, I would say. They're really weird. I mean, what was with Starlight not using magic when Chrysi captured her? Maybe they can't be broken frome inside only? I meant, weaker, to the point when they won't negate "active" magic. Also, teleport is not an active magic. At least, not by my definition. Something like energy beam coming from outside of the shard null zone - active. Something like teacup thingy - not (since it uses the object directly).

Again, after meeting Tirek but before becoming angry - she was already focused and was able to teleport to her house and out of it without problems. The presence of enemy changed her to focused, not anger. Also, she wasn't blasting Roc before she knew about Rarity, so we can't really say, how she would've try to blast the giant bird usually. Anyway, I would've called it determination, not anger.

Actually, she was struggling for a second there. And afterwards, yeah, pretty scary face. But I would say it is her serious face, not angry. She was doing the same face many times (even a few seconds afterwards) and wasn't using dark magic then.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Cocoons are the plot helpers, I would say. They're really weird. I mean, what was with Starlight not using magic when Chrysi captured her?

Maybe they can't be broken frome inside only? I meant, weaker, to the point when they won't negate "active" magic. Also, teleport is not an active magic. At least, not by my definition. Something like energy beam coming from outside of the shard null zone - active. Something like teacup thingy - not (since it uses the object directly).

Again, after meeting Tirek but before becoming angry - she was already focused and was able to teleport to her house and out of it without problems. The presence of enemy changed her to focused, not anger. Also, she wasn't blasting Roc before she knew about Rarity, so we can't really say, how she would've try to blast the giant bird usually. Anyway, I would've called it determination, not anger.

Actually, she was struggling for a second there. And afterwards, yeah, pretty scary face. But I would say it is her serious face, not angry. She was doing the same face many times (even a few seconds afterwards) and wasn't using dark magic then.

My answer to everything else I percieve as inconsistent: PIS.

They're made of the same material Chrysalis uses to make her webbing. Why would they be weaker on the inside? Teleportation is active magic. It may not be a projectile, but it's still an active form of magic that needs to be cast.

Ok then, that still helps support my point. Being focused vs unfocused is still two different states of emotion. Or at the very least states of mind. @Bold Elaborate. Also, determination is still an emotion. My entire point is that their emotions and state of mind influences their magic. It doesn't have to be anger. I mean, really, if Twilight's mind wasn't influencing her magic, then it's a wonder she hasn't crushed anyone/anything into juice when she picks it up with telekinesis. What? Am I expected to believe her telekinesis somehow "knows" not to crush things it could break?

She's not struggling. The face looks more angry than struggling. And Celestia usually doesn't make her "serious face" unless ticked off in general. As Discord, Chrysalis, and other threats can attest to,

 

[MrKerf]

Hell if I know. But the facts are: her webs aren't that strong against magic. Teleport isn't an active magic in this case. I'm calling active the magic that was set in motion outside of shard's zone. The "passive" magic by that deffinition - the magic inside the zone.

What? Of course mind affects magic. Mind affects everything. If you deciding to punch something, you do it with your mind. But being focused is not an emotion.

She is shaking for a second there and struggling. And still, the situation when she shows dark magic to her student calls for a serious face. Here. You can watch it slowly. She closes her eyes, shakes a bit, clunches her teeth, and then makes a serious face.

 

[Lightbuster30]

You really can't prove they're weak against magic. Especially not when Starlight had small bags under her eyes and a tired expression on her face after freeing everyone; Something she wouldn't have if those webs were Unicorn Twilight level. No, given that top tiers are completely unable to break free, combined with her tired expression, it makes no sense to call them weak.

Yes teleport is active. Why on earth would it not be? What on earth does that line even mean? How is teleportation not acting outside of the shard zone like a laser would?

First off: Yet again that is my whole point. Secondly: Focus is influenced by your emotional state. You think someone in a blind panic is going to have good focus?

Literally watched each individual frame and centisecond and saw nothing. Idk where the heck you're getting the idea that she shakes a little bit, but whatever you're seeing, I'm not. And she definitely isn't biting her teeth or anything. And she definitely isn't struggling. At best she's making a face that looks anwhere from stern to angry. That ain't struggling. At all.

 

[MrKerf]

We don't know how powerful and straining this blast was, so we can't say for sure. And not the unicorn Twi level perhaps, considering the fact that Chrysi became stronger, but still. The webs were difficult to break by force, but almost instantly destroyed by magic.

Teleportation would get you into the zone, I assume, but then you wouldn't be able to cast magic.

No. It doesn't matter by which things her focus state is influenced. Her power comes from control of them, not from emotions.

It's in the moment when she is saying "hatred and fear".

 

[Lightbuster30]

Straining enough that she was visibly tired from doing. AKA: Not a casual blast. If you strain yourself to the point of developing even small bags under your eyes after a single action, then it pretty obviously took a metric ton out of you. Long story short: It's very very not casual. I'd easily assume the webbing in it's current state is at least > or = to Starlight since she couldn't just casually blast it away with an standard beam like usual. If it were, she wouldn't have strained so hard afterwords. Definitely in her range of power at the very least.

Um, no? The throne was supposed to keep teleporters out in the first place. Kinda a big reason why Twilight didn't just plop her flank in there with one? Not to mention, that is headcanon in the first place.

Yes. As I said, her ability to focus; like all sapient creatures, is influenced by the state of our emotions. Even if we discard the idea of emotions influencing magic directly, that doesn't change the fact that her emotions will influence her ability to focus on casting magic. Which in turn influences her effectiveness with it.

You missed the part where I said: Watched every single frame. I'm not asking you where you saw it. I'm telling you that I'm not seeing what you are.

 

[MrKerf]

Well, I guess it is correct.

Yeah, the throne. Not shards. Anyway, let's leave the hypothetic spells and talk about the energy beam of Tirek and energy wave from Starlight.

Of course. But that's with all actions. Trambling hands and stuff are real, after all. But emotions aren't influencing magic's power. With the usual energy beam there are no amount of skill needed.

That's a 1:1 I guess.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Uh, no? The shards were ebeing used to keep magic users from getting IN with magic. And my answer to the energy wave from Starlight hasn't changed: PIS.

No again? This isn't limited to physical action. Spells very very clearly require you to focus depending on your level of skill. Serioiusly, if not their minds, then what the hell else is controlling their magic?

 

[MrKerf]

We've already established that this crystals are much weaker, that energy was able to influense the stuff inside the anti-magic zone not once, but two times. I think it's good enough to not be a pis.

I already said that I agree with the fact that mind controlls all of the actions we make, including spells. And focusing your thoughts helped Twi to control Alicorn's magic. Therefore, she was able to perform her magic better. But the mind is not an emotion. If you're sad, but focused on one task, than you won't be performing worse than usual.

 

[Lightbuster30]

We've already established that this crystals are much weaker, that energy was able to influense the stuff inside the anti-magic zone not once, but two times. I think it's good enough to not be a pis.
I already said that I agree with the fact that mind controlls all of the actions we make, including spells. And focusing your thoughts helped Twi to control Alicorn's magic. Therefore, she was able to perform her magic better. But the mind is not an emotion. If you're sad, but focused on one task, than you won't be performing worse than usual.

Not weak enough to not block Starlight and Twilight level opponents from plopping themselves in. Nope, sorry. Starlight bypassinfg the shards with energy is PIS. She's weaker than Tirek and those webs took a metric ton out of her. By comparison, Tirek shattered the crystal with the equivalent of a "shut up" blast. Starlight's energy bypassing the webs is PIS.

And how are you going to be fully focused when emotionally distraught?

 

[MrKerf]

They are weak to the outside sources. They block the magic from "appearing", but can do nothing against the outside sources. Yeah, Starlight was exausted, but did it. What's your point?

It's...fairly easy, actually. You just need a single objective/target before you, that's all.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Which, yet again, is headcanon. Starlight is not an example but the exception. She's weaker than the other villains who actaully have feats of breaking the crystal. If she were closer to them in strength I'd be fine with keeping her as an example, but she's not. My "point" is that it's not something she can do on the spot.

Tell you what; When you can perfectly focus immediately after a hugely catastrophic event happens, then I'll take your word on that.

 

[MrKerf]

But she is not breaking the crystal, only bypassing it, she is breaking the webs. And she is closer to Chrysi's strength than Tirek's, for example.

Wow, because clearly I can counter this argument, no doubt, yeeeeah. And again, if you trapped in a crystals and tries to escape, by blasting this crystals, I would say you are pretty focused on it.

 

[Lollipop_The_King]

Well, this thread isn't going anywhere.

 

[MrKerf]

Yep, that's for sure. Bump.

 

[Lightbuster30]

But she is not breaking the crystal, only bypassing it, she is breaking the webs.

And she is closer to Chrysi's strength than Tirek's, for example.

Wow, because clearly I can counter this argument, no doubt, yeeeeah. And again, if you trapped in a crystals and tries to escape, by blasting this crystals, I would say you are pretty focused on it.

Look, logically speaking, if it can break webbing strong enough to hold top tiers in place, then it being unable to break the crystals; or hell even damage the dirt around herself; or the powerless ponies behind cages. then it seems like plot induced stupidity. Perhaps not that far, but certainly something similar to it. There's honestly a lot of wonky powerscaling and pis going on in the finale.

Ok, no, Tirek is not the strongest of the trio here. They all got more or less equal shares, and Chrysalis was already strong enough to force Tirek to back off from absorbing her magic as opposed to continue eating it against her will. So if anything, I'd argue Chrysalis is the strongest of the trio. And don't even try arguing that Tirek had Starswirl's magic stacked on top of his. The plot didn't treat him as getting signifigantly stronger compared to his cohorts, so neither will I.

Being able to use your magic Ôëá being able to use it at full power. Being under extreme emotional distress doesn't paralyze you into being unable to do anything. But that also doesn't mean you can still operate at full power.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Bump. I want this settled '''now''' not '''later'''.

 

[MrKerf]

Light, come on. I've already told you that I'll create a crt after I'll done with another upgrade. If you want to settle it now, create it yourself. But let's not discuss it here, it is not a place.

I'll answer your points later.

 

[Lightbuster30]

This absolutely is the place. People challenge thrle inner workings of powers mid thread all the time. This isn't derailing, this is continuing the debate.

 

[Lightbuster30]

And I just realized: Starlight not shattering the crystals still proves their nullification can be overpowered by superior magic. She may not have broken them, but her magic still passed through them without getting nulled. That's still evidence of my assertion. Starlight bypassing; but not breaking them, shows the ability to overpower their nullification, even if not on the level of Tirek's. But that's fair since Starlight is slightly below him amd his cohorts.

 

[MrKerf]

No, it's not. It would be if we were talking about their powers. Not when we're deciding, how magic of the entire verse works. And our arguments aren't helping too. It can work either your way, or my way. Without any suppporting evidence it is a stalemate (example with a Starlight or, again, willpower based magic). We need more people with a fresh look.

And the fact that I at this point don't remember half of all the stuff I wrote clearly doesn't help.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Yeah it is. The only argument you have as an explaination for why brute force worked amounts to nothing but pure headcanon. Not to mention the fact that Tirek actually has to "level grind" so to speak if he wants to absorb certain types of magic. His absorption is literally limited by his strength. It's almost as if having more powerful magic lets you resist magic absorption and nullification. Sombra's mind control? Immune to Twilight's attempts at undoing it based on nothing but a strength difference between the two. Not some unique property only he has, just strength difference.

 

[MrKerf]

Right, because Starlight's magic dosn't pass through shards once, but then works because it is superior magic, yes, but actually no. The magic passes through because it can, if it started not in the shard's zone, It was shown multiple times. And yes, both of our opinions are headcanons, since we don't have any real proof.

And no, I'm not continuing the discussion. Nope, not now. I already told you, we need a crt about willpowered magic, Sombra's crystals, Chrisi's throne and it's shards and so on. And it shouldn't be discussed here.