Kingdom Hearts Tier 1 Hax Evaluations

[Bobsican]

So apparently I have to do a CRT on this.

Anyways, it has come to my attention that I basically have to prove that the hax of the characters is Low 1-C as it doesn't inherently scales from AP or the like (such Low 1-C AP/cosmology being accepted here), so...

- For Sora's fate manip we have the whole bond of Kairi reaching from the Realm of Light to the Realm of Darkness (with the Realm of Darkness being a parallel Low 1-C structure to the RoL, aka, the Ocean Between), and so it clearly has reached from a Low 1-C structure to another.

Sora and Riku are trapped in the Realm of Darkness, but the bond between them and Kairi opens the door to the light

- For KH heart powers (notably KH light and darkness) we have Vanitas merging with Ventus, and the X-Blade being forged by an "high dimensional" clash of light and darkness from them, heavily implying Low 1-C with the new context of the cosmology and its relation to true KH (true KH sustains it, and the X-Blade can fully control it). We already know that the power of a Keyblade comes from the user's strength of heart, and given that we already accept that hearts are what make up KH together, overall there's credibility to hearts being 5-D concepts, which in turn scale to their abilities and other stuff, the Kairi feat above further supports that too.

 

[TartaChocholate]

So, given that all hearts come from the Kingdom Hearts, which is 5D, all individual hearts, being essentially extensions of it, are 5D as well, correct?

What makes Kairi's bond 5-D is that it reaches through the realms, as in, the range makes it 5-D?

 

[Bobsican]

Yes to both questions, or at least that's what's meant to be proposed.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Well, I can kind of see, at least regarding hearts, why it's not apparent to people not familiar, at first until you get to know the way Hearts work in Kingdom Hearts, even if it does seem as pretty straighforward when you think about it.

 

[TartaChocholate]

So, uh another question for the porpuses of learning a bit more here. What makes the hearts a Type 1 Concept? And it's by having a heart that some people can channel its power and essentially "infuse" their abilities with Type 1 Concept Manip?

 

[Bobsican]

So, uh another question for the porpuses of learning a bit more here. What makes the hearts a Type 1 Concept? And it's by having a heart that some people can channel its power and essentially "infuse" their abilities with Type 1 Concept Manip?

See here for the explanation

Yes, having a heart is a requirement to use a Keyblade out of that, as it's a product coming directly from it, Roxas is the only exception as he technically got it from his bond with Sora.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Agree.

 

[Sniper670]

So apparently I have to do a CRT on this.

Anyways, it has come to my attention that I basically have to prove that the hax of the characters is Low 1-C as it doesn't inherently scales from AP or the like (such Low 1-C AP/cosmology being accepted here), so...

- For Sora's fate manip we have the whole bond of Kairi reaching from the Realm of Light to the Realm of Darkness (with the Realm of Darkness being a parallel Low 1-C structure to the RoL, aka, the Ocean Between), and so it clearly has reached from a Low 1-C structure to another.

This is range, not potency. Both Sora and Kairi are 3D characters

- For KH heart powers (notably KH light and darkness) we have Vanitas merging with Ventus, and the X-Blade being forged by an "high dimensional" clash of light and darkness from them, heavily implying Low 1-C with the new context of the cosmology and its relation to true KH (true KH sustains it, and the X-Blade can fully control it). We already know that the power of a Keyblade comes from the user's strength of heart, and given that we already accept that hearts are what make up KH together, overall there's credibility to hearts being 5-D concepts, which in turn scale to their abilities and other stuff, the Kairi feat above further supports that too.

True KH is the accumulation of all hearts if I'm getting it right and thus, will scale to the cosmology due to sheer size.
. What does it have to do with invidual Hearts? And why is every hax being scaled to low 1C because True KH is big

Can someone explain why Sora and others aren't physically 5D? Because heart is 5D right? And Heart makes up all of existence


NB: I don't know much about there verse, so I'll ask questions

 

[Bobsican]

This is range, not potency. Both Sora and Kairi are 3D characters

5D range (technically even across a 6D plane, as much as we default there being a 5D space between 4D universes) is inherently smurf on that scale, even one of the reasons hax on a certain scale is required to affect qualitatively superior beings in the first place is out of that, size.

You'd have a point if Sora and Kairi were in the same universe at the time, or even in the same multiverse, but no, Sora is in a Low 1-C space, while Kairi is another, it can't be clearer than that, if it wasn't smurf the power just wouldn't reach either.

True KH is the accumulation of all hearts if I'm getting it right and thus, will scale to the cosmology due to sheer size.
. What does it have to do with invidual Hearts? And why is every hax being scaled to low 1C because True KH is big

True KH is made of all hearts there are, and lesser variants of KH have even been made in the series by just grouping some hearts, with the characters even stating that the power of hearts is underrated with this detail, and because basically all hax comes from what makes up a heart in the first place, light and darkness, more information on that here.

Can someone explain why Sora and others aren't physically 5D? Because heart is 5D right? And Heart makes up all of existence


NB: I don't know much about there verse, so I'll ask questions

Because the strength of heart of the characters and how much of it they can access of it vary. The smurf hax proposal only extends to those that have displayed the capability to disrupt true KH, and those relative to them out of how hearts work in the setting in relation to their powers.

 

[Sniper670]

5D range (technically even across a 6D plane, as much as we default there being a 5D space between 4D universes) is inherently smurf on that scale, even one of the reasons hax on a certain scale is required to affect qualitatively superior beings in the first place is out of that, size.

Here's the thing, it's not affecting a qualitatively superior being.

It's affecting a 3D being

You'd have a point if Sora and Kairi were in the same universe at the time, or even in the same multiverse, but no, Sora is in a Low 1-C space, while Kairi is another, it can't be clearer than that.

Explained above. It's affecting the fate of 3D characters, and not 5D

True KH is made of all hearts there are, and lesser variants of KH have even been made in the series by just grouping some hearts, with the characters even stating that the power of hearts is underrated with this detail, and because basically all hax comes from what makes up a heart in the first place, light and darkness, more information on that here.

Let me see

True KH is all hearts combined, yes?

If so then I'm unsure why each Heart would be low 1C here

True KH is scaling to the size of the cosmology. This is only AP and nothing else.

What does it have to do with getting everyone's hax scaling to low 1C, ignoring all anti feats and inconsistencies

All powers in Pokémon come from Arceus, but iirc, it was rejected by DT himself because there's simply no proof that the hax Pokémon do can affect a 5D structure (his realm).
Even if it did, only those hax would scale, and not everything else

Because the strength of heart of the characters and how much of it they can access of it vary. The smurf hax proposal only extends to those that have displayed the capability to disrupt true KH, and those relative to them out of how hearts work in the setting in relation to their powers.

So you scale those hax that can affect a low 1C structure to low 1C, and not everything else

Which are those?

 

[Everything12]

The likes of a metaphysical substance like hearts coming from a Low 1-C source does not guarantee they are Low 1-C as default, and require evidence to suggest so.

 

[Ego]

 

[theultimate5105]

Your hax having Smurf range does not mean it can effect higher D beings
Hate to need to bring up Arceus but all of its stuff can have 5-D range but is not 5-D so this is no different

 

[Ego]

Your hax having Smurf range does not mean it can effect higher D beings
Hate to need to bring up Arceus but all of its stuff can have 5-D range but is not 5-D so this is no different

What does it take for a hax to have higher dimensional potency or the same AP as the character?

 

[theultimate5105]

What does it take for a hax to have higher dimensional potency or the same AP as the character?

Effecting a higher D space or character directly (or effecting stuff like higher D powers)

 

[Bobsican]

Here's the thing, it's not affecting a qualitatively superior being.

It's affecting a 3D being

Explained above. It's affecting the fate of 3D characters, and not 5D

I'm going to concede after seeing the Arceus threads (it'd still have 5D range, however), although I'll bring up another argument for it instead:

“I just cast a magic spell on you. One day when you’re in trouble, the light within you will lead you to the light of another, someone to keep you safe,” Aqua explained.

“Thanks!” Kairi happily expressed

- BbS Novel

As we can see here, Aqua cast an spell on Kairi so she'd be leaded to someone that'd keep her safe, and that someone was Sora.

Now, why am I reminding stuff that was already accepted in a past CRT? Well...

“You’ll return to the past again, but you won’t be able to rewrite it this time. No matter what happens, you have to accept it and move on.”

Sora found himself standing in the Keyblade Graveyard back when all nine of them had just arrived, right before Ventus spotted Terra.

Chirithy’s advice continued to run through his mind: “The heart you have now—it already existed during that time. It went back into that past earlier. Nothing can change that fact. The place where you’ll return is the tear in the fabric of that time that was created when you changed your destiny, then changed it once again. In order to not stray too far from the true power of waking, you’ll enter and pass through the hearts of the guardians until you reach Kairi’s heart.”

- KHIII Part 3 Novel

For context, after the main events of KHIII, Sora time traveled a bit back in the past to retrieve parts of Kairi's heart to revive her (As Xehanort killed her a while ago before the time travel).

Now, it may seem like an anti-feat for the fate manip to not prevent Kairi from dying and whatever, but this is one of the reasons the fate manip is currently accepted to prevent permanent death/incap for either Sora or Kairi.

Xehanort looked out over the city.
“Unfortunately, you’re a little too late.”
“Oh no…”
“It appears you have failed to retrieve Kairi in the time to come. So here you are, once again, in times already passed. However, now that the other ‘you’ has arrived, you’re doomed to repeat the same fate.” Master Xehanort laughed at the worry on Sora’s face. “Whatever can you do? You are nearly out of time.”
Sora watched his other self approach the city. His only option here was to merge with his past version again and fight. And merge with himself he did, holding his Keyblade.

Now, leaving at a side the currently accepted stuff of before, Xehanort confirms a while later that Sora was a bit too late to revive Kairi, and so his destiny was already laid out to repeat like before, with Chirithy himself (who told Sora this whole plan to try to revive Kairi) also thinking that he'd be unable to change events in the past this time as mentioned in the first contextual paragraph (bolded in green).

“It ends here and now!” he bellowed, then soared even higher with the great moon at his back. Kingdom Hearts took on a dark hue, and the beam from the χ-Blade fired straight for Sora.
Sora managed to get his Keyblade up in time, but the force of the impact sent him flying backward into the very depths of darkness.
Sora floated in the abyss for a time.

Am I…falling into the darkness…? I… I… No. I can’t give up now. Not when I have my friends here with me. I’ve still got to protect everyone.

Sora was on the verge of succumbing to the darkness when two lights approached: one blue and one green.
It was Donald and Goofy—the other two half-pints making the whole.
Sora opened his eyes to see that Donald and Goofy had joined him in holding up his Keyblade against Xehanort’s beam.
Three lights shone forth from the Keyblade, merging into a radiant beam that utterly destroyed Xehanort’s own and sent the fallen master toppling from the sky.

And now we're back to the original "present" before the time travel where Sora battles Xehanort, as we may all know from the current reasonings for tier 1 stats (not hax), Xehanort wanted to use true KH to erase the cosmology and make a new one in his image, and so this'd be a force that'd shut down any future attempt to time travel back out of the "original" timeline where Kairi died to begin with never existing, most notably to revive Kairi as said before, and so that combined with Sora's statement on how he was the only force defending the cosmology from true KH at the time, that leads to the overall conclusion that not only was the fate manip involved, it would've had to affect true KH to have allowed Sora to overcome it, especially considering that his original destiny was already deemed to be the contrary otherwise as explained before.

Let me see

True KH is all hearts combined, yes?

If so then I'm unsure why each Heart would be low 1C here

True KH is scaling to the size of the cosmology. This is only AP and nothing else.

What does it have to do with getting everyone's hax scaling to low 1C, ignoring all anti feats and inconsistencies

Yes.

Because their components (light and darkness) are of the same existencial nature as true KH, even if not in an infinite scale individually, it's part of why hearts are type 1 concepts in general.

Complementative information to support my claims.

All powers in Pokémon come from Arceus, but iirc, it was rejected by DT himself because there's simply no proof that the hax Pokémon do can affect a 5D structure (his realm).
Even if it did, only those hax would scale, and not everything else

So you scale those hax that can affect a low 1C structure to low 1C, and not everything else

Which are those?

Mainly everything here and probably Sealing and Sealing Negation from Keyblades, as not only have there been displays of Keyblades significantly contributing to the sealing's capabilities of the X-Blade to seal true KH, Sora and Mickey could seal the Door to Darkness, which was a gateway between the Realm of Darkness (which parallels the Ocean Between) and the Realm of Light (main area of the Ocean Between). One could also argue for the Regen Negation as it worked on Sora's Heartless, who was threatening to absorb the Datascape.

 

[KLOL506]

@Planck69 @Theglassman12 @Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Elizhaa @Everything12 What are your thoughts on this?

 

[ThanatosX]

Isn't this CRT kind of outdated? If I remember correctly, it was made even before the 6-D upgrade, and I believe there are many more arguments being made about the haxes scaling to such dimensionality, especially regarding the nature of Light and Darkness.

 

[KLOL506]

Would y'all be kind enough to link to the most recent CRT on this topic then?

 

[ThanatosX]

Would y'all be kind enough to link to the most recent CRT on this topic then?

Regarding the scaling of the haxes, I think this was the only one made, or at least that I knew of. But it was made before the 6-D upgrades, hence the usage of 5-D in the OP, and I think that some stuff about the haxes was discussed there too, but I don't remember.
I wanted to make a CRT about this for the longest time but never found the time, so I suppose that this can be continued, thought I think that, other than the OP, this comment from Bob should also be taken into consideration, at least imo:

I'm going to concede after seeing the Arceus threads (it'd still have 5D range, however), although I'll bring up another argument for it instead:


- BbS Novel

As we can see here, Aqua cast an spell on Kairi so she'd be leaded to someone that'd keep her safe, and that someone was Sora.

Now, why am I reminding stuff that was already accepted in a past CRT? Well...


- KHIII Part 3 Novel

For context, after the main events of KHIII, Sora time traveled a bit back in the past to retrieve parts of Kairi's heart to revive her (As Xehanort killed her a while ago before the time travel).

Now, it may seem like an anti-feat for the fate manip to not prevent Kairi from dying and whatever, but this is one of the reasons the fate manip is currently accepted to prevent permanent death/incap for either Sora or Kairi.



Now, leaving at a side the currently accepted stuff of before, Xehanort confirms a while later that Sora was a bit too late to revive Kairi, and so his destiny was already laid out to repeat like before, with Chirithy himself (who told Sora this whole plan to try to revive Kairi) also thinking that he'd be unable to change events in the past this time as mentioned in the first contextual paragraph (bolded in green).



And now we're back to the original "present" before the time travel where Sora battles Xehanort, as we may all know from the current reasonings for tier 1 stats (not hax), Xehanort wanted to use true KH to erase the cosmology and make a new one in his image, and so this'd be a force that'd shut down any future attempt to time travel back out of the "original" timeline where Kairi died to begin with never existing, most notably to revive Kairi as said before, and so that combined with Sora's statement on how he was the only force defending the cosmology from true KH at the time, that leads to the overall conclusion that not only was the fate manip involved, it would've had to affect true KH to have allowed Sora to overcome it, especially considering that his original destiny was already deemed to be the contrary otherwise as explained before.



Yes.

Because their components (light and darkness) are of the same existencial nature as true KH, even if not in an infinite scale individually, it's part of why hearts are type 1 concepts in general.

Complementative information to support my claims.



Mainly everything here and probably Sealing and Sealing Negation from Keyblades, as not only have there been displays of Keyblades significantly contributing to the sealing's capabilities of the X-Blade to seal true KH, Sora and Mickey could seal the Door to Darkness, which was a gateway between the Realm of Darkness (which parallels the Ocean Between) and the Realm of Light (main area of the Ocean Between). One could also argue for the Regen Negation as it worked on Sora's Heartless, who was threatening to absorb the Datascape.

 

[Eseseso]

If this isn't outdated it looks fine to me.

 

[Bobsican]

BTW, sorry for the necro, but this was rebranded into an higher quality thread here, namely to just settle it as a UES.