• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Transduality type 1 for True Kingdom Hearts

ThatBoiRick

ThatBoiRick

61
13
The title is self-explanatory, we are here to possibly grant Type 1 tranduality for true Kingdom hearts.

Type 1 tranduality refers to a state of existence to where an entity transcends a specific dual concept, such as existence and Non-Existence, life and death, and good and evil. In order to explain type 1 for true KH we will be exploring tranduality over the concepts of Kingdom heart's (verse) light and darkness.

Light and darkness within the cosmology of Kingdom hearts are the universal energy sources that serve as the primordial forces that both predate and create the verse proper, even down to the conceptual levels in some instances. Their dual nature has always been a focal point of Kingdom hearts as it is stated the realm of darkness itself runs parallel to the realm of light, even to the point of it being referred to as the "reverse" side. It's also stated that light and darkness are half of everything that exists, and that light and darkness cannot exist without each other.

This is important for the subject, as Kingdom Hearts itself plays a significant role in regard to the existence of both light and darkness, namely, its ability to completely obliterate darkness while not suffering the consequences that would follow from the resulting imbalance, as it's been stated Xehanort could use its power to completely eradicate light and darkness. This means KH itself would be completely immune to the effects and existences of either force and should transcend them both altogether, as it was even implied that true darkness wouldn't be spared from its purge of the cosmology.

now that we have established light and darkness being opposite and parallel forces to each other, it's safe to say true KH, which transcends both, should qualify for type 1 TD.

Agree: 8 (@TheGreatJedi13 , @Bobsican , @FeebasExE , @ThanatosX , @Marshadow29 , @Starsprite53 , @Milly_Rocking_Bandit @BasedNecoScaler69 )

Neutral: 0

Disagree: 1 (@Georredannea15 )
 
Last edited:
TBH it seems more like type 2 given that the nature of light and darkness isn't a singular duality per-say, all that exists in the setting is made of those to do so (the act of existing) in the first place, and so it'd inherently be above all dualities as far it's concerned especially given it's shown to be unaffected by anything beyond the X-Blade, which coexists with it and is overall labeled as the exception.
 
Bobsican said:
TBH it seems more like type 2 given that the nature of light and darkness isn't a singular duality per-say, all that exists in the setting is made of those to do so (the act of existing) in the first place, and so it'd inherently be above all dualities as far it's concerned especially given it's shown to be unaffected by anything beyond the X-Blade, which coexists with it and is overall labeled as the exception.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I wanted to wait until type 1 gets accepted to push got type 2
 
Type 1 is understandable
But due to the nature of this duality basically being above almost everything in the verse. One who gets Transduality type 1 from being unbound by light and dark would in turn be unbound hy whatever within the constraints of light and dark. Though i do not think it would grant TD 2.

Though im not really familiar with KH there is still some key possible contradictions that need to be argued about.

Most notably will they be completely unbound to both in a way that light and dark no longer affects them.

For the case where one could erase darkness completely without suffering imbalance seems to imply something else. Since the light still exist in him and we are not shown if he did also transcend light by being no longer affected by darkness.

Transcending one part of duality isn't enough for TD 1 i believe if the other half still exist as something needed for them to exist. It could make them nondual but not transduality in terms of transcending it
 
Uh... "him" and "them"? Are you speaking in regards of characters using it, or True KH itself? True KH is more of an artifact than a character, so "it" pronouns would be more appropiate here, especially to minimize confusion, as far we currently know.

I guess I should clarify that nothing in the verse but True KH would be getting the transduality stuff, going by some implications in your post potentially having a misunderstanding as covered before.

TheGreatJedi13 said:
For the case where one could erase darkness completely without suffering imbalance seems to imply something else. Since the light still exist in him and we are not shown if he did also transcend light by being no longer affected by darkness.

Transcending one part of duality isn't enough for TD 1 i believe if the other half still exist as something needed for them to exist. It could make them nondual but not transduality in terms of transcending it
Click to expand...
Uh... light would also have been completely wiped out too.

Further proof, taken from the OP (namely this part):

"浄化　世界を元の状態にリセットするのだ = Purification. The World will be reset to its original state/condition."

"だから　はじまりの光ー キングダムハーツによって　世界を元からはじめればいい = So, the first lightー by (using) Kingdom Hearts, (we) should start the World from the beginning."

"何もない　真っ白な世界からー = Nothing/empty… from a pure/blank Worldー"
Click to expand...

It also seems the Bayonetta verse got type 2 TD for this kind of stuff.
 
Well, the TD page doesn't require at least two dualities for TD type 2 per-say, but rather meeting the same criteria as TD 1 but to all dual systems regarding the reality in question, and given light and darkness are clearly a extremely broad duality that makes up all that exists in the verse, it seems plausible to consider at least.

In other words, yes, it's the only duality AFAIK, hence the above argument.
 
Bobsican said:
Well, the TD page doesn't require at least two dualities for TD type 2 per-say, but rather meeting the same criteria as TD 1 but to all dual systems regarding the reality in question, and given light and darkness are clearly a extremely broad duality that makes up all that exists in the verse, it seems plausible to consider at least.

In other words, yes, it's the only duality AFAIK, hence the above argument.
Click to expand...
tbh i find that dumb cause if there is only 1 duality
then there is no difference between TD2 and TD1 in that verse
but yeah since it basically achieves the same thing i don't mind either
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
and at the very least it has 2 dualities which makes it enough for TD2
Click to expand...
Ehh who told you that??? I just will quote what the page say
As it stands, Type 1 corresponds to being beyond certain kinds of dual systems, but not all duality. Type 2 refers to characters whose existence is described as either being in both states of a duality at once or in neither state. Type 3 refers to characters whose existence belongs to alternate logical states which can't be described just by saying that they exist in both or neither state of a duality, but instead in a unique third state.
Click to expand...

So it not matter if you have just a kind or one dual system or have many kinds or plural and varies dual system, if you not transcend all dual system it still TD 1
 
Fixxed said:
Ehh who told you that??? I just will quote what the page say


So it not matter if you have just a kind or one dual system or have many kinds or plural and varies dual system, if you not transcend all dual system it still TD 1
Click to expand...
Type 1 (Specific Transduality): Characters that exist in a nondual state regarding one specific dual system and qualitatively superior or immune to effects caused within it.

Type 2 (General Transduality): Characters that exist in a nondual state regarding all dual systems within the scope of an entire level of reality and qualitatively superior or immune to the effects caused within it. Furthermore, characters with this type can be accurately described as being in either both or neither state of the dualities.

what you showed is guidelines
this is the requirements

also don't argue semantics too much
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
Type 1 (Specific Transduality): Characters that exist in a nondual state regarding one specific dual system and qualitatively superior or immune to effects caused within it.

Type 2 (General Transduality): Characters that exist in a nondual state regarding all dual systems within the scope of an entire level of reality and qualitatively superior or immune to the effects caused within it. Furthermore, characters with this type can be accurately described as being in either both or neither state of the dualities.

what you showed is guidelines
this is the requirements

also don't argue semantics too much
Click to expand...
All of that is explanation bruh
I think you that argue too sematic in here, just because it say "all dual systems within the scope of reality" it doesnt mean just some duality that exist in that scope of reality, it must all duality

We even have a discussion about this, any duality is needed for TD 2
Even @Qawsedf234 say TD 2 must have every duality per its definition, he disagree even if the character is already transcend some kinds of duality
 
Fixxed said:
All of that is explanation bruh
I think you that argue too sematic in here, just because it say "all dual systems within the scope of reality" it doesnt mean just some duality that exist in that scope of reality, it must all duality

We even have a discussion about this, any duality is needed for TD 2
Even @Qawsedf234 say TD 2 must have every duality per its definition, he disagree even if the character is already transcend some kinds of duality
Click to expand...
you're not making any sense to me
i never argued any of what you just brought up
cut it off you're derailing
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
you're not making any sense to me
i never argued any of what you just brought up
cut it off you're derailing
Click to expand...
Bruh.. you literally say 2 dual system is enough for TD 2, i say no, i even brought what the page and staff say about it, and you say you never argued about it??? You forget what you say???
 
My thoughts after reading the Transduality page and trying to properly articulate what @Fixxed said.

Let's use "bag" as a concept.

Scenario 1
KH verse exists inside a bag called light and darkness. This bag governs the concept of existence and nonexistence (just an example) and that's why everything even exists. But everything within that bag isn't being governed by their own individual bags ie. Their own dualities but rather the bag puts a piece of itself in everything, allowing them to exist or nonexist. In this case this is type 1. Anyone standing outside the bag is type 1 transdual on an nep 2 level. Existing ungoverned by existence or nonexistence. Light and Dark cannot define this existence. Specific to this duality.


Scenario 2
KH verse exists inside a bag called Yin and Yang. Within this bag, everything in it exists inside their own bags which is the dualistic essence that underpins and divides all things. Yin and Yang is the authority that defines this system and anything within that bag will be defined.
And then there's a being within the verse who isn't within a bag, Yin and Yang cannot divide it, cannot define it, cannot understand this being that lies outside of it. His body, mind, soul, is standing outside the bags that define and divide body, mind and soul, and every aspect of his being and nature etc.

That being is type 2. Conceptually beyond "Duality" as an authority.


It's NLF to expand Light and Dark to grant immunity to everything else when light and dark is basically some sort of life force that allows them to live/exist. Once again, very specific
 
Fixxed said:
Bruh.. you literally say 2 dual system is enough for TD 2, i say no, i even brought what the page and staff say about it, and you say you never argued about it??? You forget what you say???
Click to expand...
you're missing context and I hate how you brought this up out of nowhere and then proceeded to derail this CRT when you clearly misunderstood what I said and what I meant when I mentioned that 2 dual system is enough when there is only 2 dual system present in the verse in its entirety.
I'm not gonna argue this with you so cut it off or I'll ask staff to moderate this derailment
 
ThatBoiRick said:
A CRT about T2TD would be quite easy is T1TD gets accepted given the nature of light and darkness within KH.

@Bobsican @TheGreatJedi13

Do you both agree for T1TD?
Click to expand...
I'd agree with Type 1. Type 2 is much more complicated but i do agree that Light and Dark is indeed a duality and thus qualifies to grant TD1 for True Kingdom Hearts

but as for it being enough for Type 2 since it alone is a single duality instead of multiple I cannot say much. Fixxed despite derailing also brought up the argument in ergenverse and qawsedf (the 2nd link) which applies to this as well.
 
FeebasExE said:
It's NLF to expand Light and Dark to grant immunity to everything else when light and dark is basically some sort of life force that allows them to live/exist. Once again, very specific
Click to expand...
It's not a life force, it's not limited to things that are alive or even sentient, stuff like rivers and universes themselves have a heart.
See from the 5th reference to the 8th one for more information on this, basically it's rather explicit it applies to all that exists in the verse.
 
Its type 1 as it is a specific duality and not Yin and Yang (example) as an authority that defines all opposites within the verse...

Transcending the former is type 1, transcending the latter is type 2
 
There's no type 2 condition here. However, I don't see any expression of "transcendence" towards light and darkness. Based on my previous experience, being unaffected by the effects of a duality system doesn't give you TD because it can be a kind of resistance. Therefore a statement or evidence of transcendence is required.
 
Georredannea15 said:
There's no type 2 condition here. However, I don't see any expression of "transcendence" towards light and darkness. Based on my previous experience, being unaffected by the effects of a duality system doesn't give you TD because it can be a kind of resistance. Therefore a statement or evidence of transcendence is required.
Click to expand...
there's no statement where its stated the characters transcend light and darkness from the OP but there are feats which imply they do
thats where im getting at
 
Last edited:
Robo432343 said:
there's no statement where its stated the characters transcend light and darkness but there are feats which imply they do
thats where im getting at
Click to expand...
These feats give you only resistance unless they are supported up by any statement of transcendence. So...
 
The Page clarified transcendence as a form of immunity due to being unaffected by whatever is within the duality.
so as long as immunity is shown and implied from being above it, I don't see any reason to require further transcendence proof
which IMO the fact that they are no longer affected by consequences of both spectrums of the duality is sufficient and its more of their nature than actual resistance
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
The Page clarified transcendence as a form of immunity due to being unaffected by whatever is within the duality.
so as long as immunity is shown and implied from being above it, I don't see any reason to require further transcendence proof
which IMO the fact that they are no longer affected by consequences of both spectrums of the duality is sufficient and its more of their nature than actual resistance
Click to expand...
Having a feat that you are unaffected to the effects of a duality system(dual-concepts) is not necessarily immunity. Primarily this is assumed as a resistance. In order for it to be an immunity(and TD), you have to have an existential transcendence or a non-duality. In short, you need a few more things.
 
Georredannea15 said:
But it can also be a resistance, and in this case the standards assume resistance
Click to expand...
I'm not understanding. Deleting light or darkness from KH (verse) even individually would have negative consequences on the verse proper, as it's stated they cannot exist without eachother. There is no damage overtime to even consider a "resistance" everything would be destroyed, gone in an instant.

I'd assume being able to purge light and darkness and reducing them to a void especially if, as stated in the thread, even the true embodiments of darkness would be annihilated would count as immunity. The only thing within the entire verse that has been shown to have an effect on KH is the X-blade, which has been proven to be the only exception, ad the X-blade is how one manages to summon/use Kingdom Hearts in the first place.

Xehanort was going to use KH to not only purge the entire cosomology of light and darkness but recreate them. L/D themselves are universal energy sources as accepted, this means KH is an absolute force that would inherently be immune anything within the KH cosmology.
 
Last edited:
ThatBoiRick said:
I'm not understanding. Deleting light or darkness from KH (verse) even individually would have negative consequences on the verse proper, as it's stated they cannot exist without eachother. There is no damage overtime to even consider a "resistance" everything would be destroyed, gone in an instant.

I'd assume being able to purge light and darkness and reducing them to a void especially if, as stated in the thread, even the true embodiments of darkness would be annihilated would count as immunity. The only thing within the entire verse that has been shown to have an effect on KH is the X-blade, which has been proven to be the only exception, ad the X-blade is how one manages to summon/use Kingdom Hearts in the first place.

Xehanort was going to use KH to not only purge the entire cosomology of light and darkness but recreate them. L/D themselves are universal energy sources as accepted, this means KH is an absolute force that would inherently be immune anything within the KH cosmology.
Click to expand...
Not to be affected by the effects of a duality system subject to a universal energy system does not count as immunity. And anyway, in order for it to be a duality, it must be spread over a whole plane of reality. So the UES doesn't provide much support here.
 
Georredannea15 said:
Not to be affected by the effects of a duality system subject to a universal energy system does not count as immunity. And anyway, in order for it to be a duality, it must be spread over a whole plane of reality. So the UES doesn't provide much support here.
Click to expand...
you're acting like the UES is the only evidence they have lol
and you didn't explain why it doesn't provide support
 
FeebasExE said:
Type 1. It's still just one duality
Click to expand...
Please, stop derailing. No one is talking about Type 2 anymore and the OP clearly talks about Type 1. Stay in topic.

Georredannea15 said:
Not to be affected by the effects of a duality system subject to a universal energy system does not count as immunity. And anyway, in order for it to be a duality, it must be spread over a whole plane of reality. So the UES doesn't provide much support here.
Click to expand...
The point is that True Kingdom Hearts existed before the duality of Light and Darkness even existed in the first place, and even the complete destruction of said duality would not affect it despite this destruction being capable of erasing the entire cosmology, making the True Kingdom Hearts not only above, but completely detached from this duality that define existence.
And as already accepted, the duality of Light and Darkness is what makes up everything in the cosmology, so it is indeed something that is spread across an entire plane of reality.

Given everything, I agree with Transduality Type 1 for the True Kingdom Hearts.
 
Robo432343 said:
you're acting like the UES is the only evidence they have lol
and you didn't explain why it doesn't provide support
Click to expand...
I explained what they need. If you don't understand, it's not my problem.
ThanatosX said:
The point is that True Kingdom Hearts existed before the duality of Light and Darkness even existed in the first place, and even the complete destruction of said duality would not affect it despite this destruction being capable of erasing the entire cosmology, making the True Kingdom Hearts not only above, but completely detached from this duality that define existence.
And as already accepted, the duality of Light and Darkness is what makes up everything in the cosmology, so it is indeed something that is spread across an entire plane of reality.

Given everything, I agree with Transduality Type 1 for the True Kingdom Hearts.
Click to expand...
So... Existing before dualities not a support for TD. And being unaffected by their destruction gives you at most resistance without more statement.

There is still nothing necessarily given to TD. The key points for Transduality, such as transcendence and non-duality, are not found here. And even non-duality alone is not enough for TD.
 
Georredannea15 said:
So... Existing before dualities not a support for TD. And being unaffected by their destruction gives you at most resistance without more statement.

There is still nothing necessarily given to TD. The key points for Transduality, such as transcendence and non-duality, are not found here. And even non-duality alone is not enough for TD.
Click to expand...
Based on what you are saying there would be nothing that can have Transduality.
To quote the Transduality page for Type 1: Characters that exist in a nondual state regarding one specific dual system and qualitatively superior or immune to effects caused within it.
Kingdom Hearts should easily qualify considering that it is immune to the effects caused withing the Light and Darkness duality, with the fat that it created the duality in the first place and existed before the duality existed being big supporting evidence.
If you disagree that's fine, but to me this meets the requirements easily.
 
ThanatosX said:
Based on what you are saying there would be nothing that can have Transduality.
To quote the Transduality page for Type 1: Characters that exist in a nondual state regarding one specific dual system and qualitatively superior or immune to effects caused within it.
Kingdom Hearts should easily qualify considering that it is immune to the effects caused withing the Light and Darkness duality, with the fat that it created the duality in the first place and existed before the duality existed being big supporting evidence.
If you disagree that's fine, but to me this meets the requirements easily.
Click to expand...
Not only immunity is on the page. It clearly states that it also wants a transcendence or non-duality requirement. If it doesn't have that, it's simply resistance, but anyway.
 
Why would an entity that can purge the entire cosomology and reduce it to a void while simultaneously existing outside of it not count and transcendence? Nothing within the cosomology could effect KH, not even light and darkness, which are the foundations the entire cosomology is built from.

The point in bringing up L/D being UES is to prove that they do indeed scale to the entire cosmology. Yet even light and darkness would be eradicated. If KH can cause this much destruction on a cosmological scale its safe to say its fully transcendent over Light and Darkness, which themselves comprise the hearts of everything in existence. Hearts themselves being abstract concepts.

In what way does KH not transcend the cosmology?
 
ThatBoiRick said:
Why would an entity that can purge the entire cosomology and reduce it to a void while simultaneously existing outside of it not count and transcendence? Nothing within the cosomology could effect KH, not even light and darkness, which are the foundations the entire cosomology is built from.

The point in bringing up L/D being UES is to prove that they do indeed scale to the entire cosmology. Yet even light and darkness would be eradicated. If KH can cause this much destruction on a cosmological scale its safe to say its fully transcendent over Light and Darkness, which themselves comprise the hearts of everything in existence. Hearts themselves being abstract concepts.

In what way does KH not transcend the cosmology?
Click to expand...
Because be lack something or before exist something =/= being transcend.

In such a case, it will be a resistance because would be unaffected. You need more for TD.

You need a transcendence and immunity with a "non-duality" as the page says.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Ayewale
  • Locked
2-B KH is a bit bad
2
Replies
63
Views
6K
LephyrTheRevanchist
LephyrTheRevanchist
ThanatosX
Kingdom Hearts: Light and Darkness CRT
Replies
15
Views
2K
ThanatosX
ThanatosX
Bobsican
Kingdom Hearts Tier 1 Hax Evaluations
Replies
21
Views
3K
Bobsican
Bobsican
PrinceStories
Added ability for The Great Darkness
Replies
30
Views
2K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Bobsican
Kingdom Hearts Low 1-C Ocean Between Re:Evaluation
2
Replies
79
Views
6K
Eseseso
Eseseso
Back
Top