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Kirby vs. Joker (Ren Amamiya)

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The real cal howard said:
Don't look at me. You think I'd risk my position to create socks for a measly vs debate?
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Considering you have a position, I doubt anyone would've accused you for it, dude. It's probably just someone or several people trolling to up Kirby's votes.
 
Anyways, I'm going to take a break, this is particularly taxing and I'd like to clear my mind. I'll come back later, and I'd like to apologize it I offended or misinterpreted any arguments.
 
With that logic interacting with concepts wouldn't be conceptual manipulation.If I can attack and interact with a soul it would be non physical interaction and soul manipulation since it would fall under both categories of powers since a soul is non physical and is also a well...soul.
 
Infiniverse of Oblivion said:
With that logic interacting with concepts wouldn't be conceptual manipulation.If I can attack and interact with a soul it would be non physical interaction and soul manipulation since it would fall under both categories of powers.
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Getting soul manipulation via hitting exposed souls was rejected
 
"It should be noted that the ability to interact with souls and other non-corporeal entities directly as if they were physical objects is usually considered Non-Physical Interaction and does not grant the user the ability to manipulate souls in other contexts."

Literally on the soul manipulation page.
 
Milly Rocking Bandit said:
I'm gonna make a CRT on hitting exposed souls, because I do not agree with that line of logic in the slightest.
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Agreed.Said line of logic is very flawed imo.

Anyway what are the votes (not counting socks) are at?
 
Infiniverse of Oblivion said:
Milly Rocking Bandit said:
I'm gonna make a CRT on hitting exposed souls, because I do not agree with that line of logic in the slightest.
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Agreed.Said line of logic is very flawed imo.
Anyway what are the votes (not counting socks) are at?
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To be honest, this match (yet another) should be put on hold if this CRT is to be made. Because this revision won't just affect Persona, it'll affect Kirby, and dozens of other verses.
 
The real cal howard said:
You know how many rpg characters get the "We don't know what they'd start off with so we don't assume they start with X?" All of them. Unless they have tie in media or cutscene feats, literally all of them. What makes Joker special? I've played quite a few RPGs in my day. If I'm playing Final Fantasy, if I'm not hurting an enemy, I'll assume they're weak to magic or summon or a different type of weapon before I cast freaking Doom.
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Why are you hyping up death spells so much? In Persona, they're just another form of spell, no more inherently substantial than a fireball or an ailment spell. It's not any more expensive to use than any other spell (if anything, it's cheaper than most of Joker's arsenal) and it has no drawbacks. So you tell me, why in the world would Joker have any reason NOT to use it as soon as he needs to? Your perspective on the magnitude of Persona's death spells is severely throwing off your idea of how this will go down.

See first paragraph in response to your third. If anything, guns means even more dead, because guns aren't doing anything here.

Guns means he keeps his distance. They have the same range as his spells, and are stronger than his standard melee attacks. If he notices that they're not working, there's absolutely no way he's going to approach. Worst case scenario, he either uses a spell to make sure it's not Kirby specifically nullifying gunfire, or use Almighty to bypass an assumed invulnerability; after which he'd realize that Kirby's just that durable. At which point, he ABSOLUTELY goes for Hama/Mudo spells.

First off, I made a CRT already. You responded to it. Heck, you even gave minor agreement.

That CRT was on mindhax, not the scale of his defensive hax. I already agreed that pre-Yaldy, there are no mindhax feats in terms of pure numerical value.

Second, show me where it says on Joker's profile "all of his abilities are higher dimensional even in his weakest keys." Because if not, I can totally refute this without even needing a CRT, because it wouldn't be on the profile. Finally, I'm not done calling out the obvious double standard even if that were legit. I can promise you zero characters with tiers that increase while the game goes on, and there's a lot of them, they aren't assumed to have their abilities be the same in the early tier as they are in the final tier.

There, it's on the profile. As for double-standards, I have no experience to speak on behalf of other verses, but in Persona's case, it makes perfect sense. Defensive hax is defensive hax. You can't assign an arbitrary limit to it when none have been displayed. Tetrakarn is Tetrakarn regardless of the point in the story it's used. Hax only goes as far up as it's been shown to work on, yes, but take into account that said hax is the exact same spell from the time it first appears against a Tier 7 and the last time it appears against a Tier 2. The upper limit for said hax is Low 2-C, it doesn't matter when it first appeared, because it never changed.

No, it's that they can hit Information. This is the same argument everyone shuts down when it comes to killing ghosts. Being able to kill ghosts doesn't mean that you OHKO with soulhax. I'll add that into the CRT.

They can't hit information if there's a physical body in the way. I don't know who's arguing that point, but no, that's not how it works. It's never been how it worked since even before it was accepted. Regardless, that's not part of Joker's wincon here.
 
It's because the defensive spells he's using aren't shown to have a certain limit in game, the hax used against him early in the game is the exact same as the hax used against him by Low 2-Cs. Bottom line is that the potency doesn't change throughout the game. Sol also explained that above, so you probably should have read that too.
 
I disgaree with attack reflection working on Low 2-C's, that's a blatant game mechanic. Otherwise get ready for some sweet sweet Pokémon upgrades.
 
DatOneWeeb said:
I disgaree with attack reflection working on Low 2-C's, that's a blatant game mechanic. Otherwise get ready for some sweet sweet Pokémon upgrades.
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Do you not know how Game Mechanics work? Game Mechanics are considered non-canon only if they contradict concepts established by the actual story. Pokemon's Protect working against Arceus in-game is a game mechanic because the anime has displayed on multiple occasions that Protect can be broken by sufficient power. That is not the case for any of Persona's defensive hax, so thus, we use the default standard for hax, which cares nothing about the tier of its user, but the highest potency the specific ability has displayed.
 
Schnee One said:
I didn't misunderstand you trying to paint these moves as Gameplay mechanics, in fact your post confirms this further.

Hax works regardless of strength. Unless there's an in universe weakness for it or higher D shenanigans. Like we've accepted always.
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Just saw this and I see the problem. I'm not talking about purely durabity-ignoring hax like Death Manip, I'm talking about those that need to be shown to work with strong enough things to be claimed to do so, like Power Null and Attack Reflection. Things like this I'm not ok with, I'll make a CRT on it later.
 
Solacis said:
Do you not know how Game Mechanics work? Game Mechanics are considered non-canon only if they contradict concepts established by the actual story. Pokemon's Protect working against Arceus in-game is a game mechanic because the anime has displayed on multiple occasions that Protect can be broken by sufficient power. That is not the case for any of Persona's defensive hax, so thus, we use the default standard for hax, which cares nothing about the tier of its user, but the highest potency the specific ability has displayed.
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It literally contradicts the power of Joker. These characters canonically get stronger as they go on, with having stronger Personas as the game and Igor expect you to gain stronger Personas. The Personas are in fact, one of the main reasons as to why Joker is even so strong in the first place. I mean stronger Personas have a better strength stat after all, along with Satanael proving this even more. So yes, this does in-fact contradict things. Joker canonically gets stronger, with having stronger Personas as the game expects. To say an early game Personas ability scales to late game Persona's is downright false. Sure we can allow hama skills, sleep skills, etc since they bypass durability. However things such as physical skills, gun skills, attack reflection, and others fall under the tier Joker is only.
 
That's a complete false equivalence.

The only things that change between gaining new Personas is their stats and their affinities. They may get stronger skills, such as Agi becoming Agilao, but that's literally it. Personas getting stronger is based entirely on their stats. Their affinities that nullify/reflect/absorb attacks, as well as defensive spells such as Tetrakarn and Makarakarn DO NOT change, neither did they ever scale to a Persona's stats or levels in any form.

Hax does not care about tier. What part of this do you not understand? It's the exact same spell that has shown zero indication of ever having limits at any point in the game, working equally well against everything up to Yaldabaoth. There is literally zero evidence to support the idea that these invulnerabilities/reflections/absorptions scale to the strength of their users in any Persona media.
 
Joker has 8 votes to Kirby's none, yeah. All of Kirby's FRAs aren't counted since the reasons have all been debunked. The 7th vote happened over a day ago, so afaik this should be closed and added already.
 
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