-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Kirby vs Mario
- Thread starter Minato_87
- Start date
- 665
- 53
Mario is galaxy.
Kirby is MSS.
This is a stomp...
Kirby is MSS.
This is a stomp...
- 4,652
- 1,330
Kirby is much faster though, and he's MSS approaching Galaxy.
- 4,652
- 1,330
His MSS feat took place within the supermassive black hole of a galaxy, and Dark nebula's omni-directional attack destroyed all of the celestial bodies until the only thing visible was a far away galaxy, meaning that the attack reached Galaxy's end at least.
Also, there are a couple factors that contribute to the feat being much higher than as depicted, such as:
-Kirby took the attack without flinching.
-The fight took place within the supermassive black hole, you know, the kind that holds the entire galaxy together. Kirby continued to fight Nebula within the black hole without any restraints whatsoever.
So yes, the feat IS approaching galaxy level.
Kirby's also galaxy-crossing MFTL, as he could keep up with NOVA, who could move from galaxy's end to Pop Star within short time frames. As far as I know, Mario only has MFTL reactions as a result of being able to fly across stellar distances.
Also, there are a couple factors that contribute to the feat being much higher than as depicted, such as:
-Kirby took the attack without flinching.
-The fight took place within the supermassive black hole, you know, the kind that holds the entire galaxy together. Kirby continued to fight Nebula within the black hole without any restraints whatsoever.
So yes, the feat IS approaching galaxy level.
Kirby's also galaxy-crossing MFTL, as he could keep up with NOVA, who could move from galaxy's end to Pop Star within short time frames. As far as I know, Mario only has MFTL reactions as a result of being able to fly across stellar distances.
- 4,652
- 1,330
Here is the map. See the last star with the picture of Dark Nebula on it? That's where Kirby fought Dark Nebula. That is at least right next to a supermassive black hole, if not inside it.
- 665
- 53
I didnt see that speed isnt equalized. In that case, Kirby can win via hax and superior speed.
- 2,129
- 226
Mario has MFTL+ Speed and reactions plus he is probably much faster since he can travel multiple galaxies in less than 10 seconds
- 5
- 0
With Paper Mario: Mario with difficulty
With Normal Mario: Kirby with ease.
With Normal Mario: Kirby with ease.
- 4,652
- 1,330
No. He does not travel across galaxies. He traverses large clusters of space debris and small black holes that the game calls a galaxy. Mario is MFTL+ in reactions over mid-stellar distances, and the MFTL+ flight speed only comes from the Launch Star. Meanwhile Kirby can react to NOVA, who can cross entire galaxies in short time frames, and combat opponents while flying on the warp star.NotAMarioFan(lol) said:
Even then, just because the two of them are both MFTL+ doesn't mean the difference in speed/reactions isn't astronomical. Note 2 on the Speed Scale clarifies this.
"Note 2: Kindly note that MFTL+ is a very broad category which starts from 1000x Speed of Light up to infinity. As such, MFTL+ characters need not be even remotely on a similar level of speed. In fact, the difference may be as great as the magnitude of difference between MFTL and regular human level. In conclusion, one MFTL+ character can speed blitz another MFTL+ character, and assuming otherwise without a logical reason is fallacious."
Huesito88: Isn't the black hole only twice the size of Pop-Star?
Yes, but there are two things you need to consider here:
-Planets in the Kirby universe were always depicted to be MASSIVE in size, so large that giant moons are in the stratosphere . They're even depicted as lightyears apart in distance, in both the anime and the games.
-Perspective and distance is a thing. Although I'm not entirely sure, it's likely that Pop Star is simply in the foreground.
And as for Sanic's comment:
"With Paper Mario: Mario with difficulty."
Umm... have you read Paper Mario's profile? Paper Mario is 5-B, and 2-B with the Pure Hearts. The former is a blatant stomp for Kirby and the latter is a horrible stomp for Mario. Either way Mario doesn't "Win with difficulty". The OP never even specified the use of Paper Mario. I'm on Kirby's side here, but why are you bringing Paper Mario into this?
- 4,652
- 1,330
I like Mario as much as the next guy, but even with Mario's superior AP and durability, it's meaningless if he cannot land a hit on Kirby. Kirby is just far too versatile and fast for Mario to deal with.
- 2,129
- 226
You should look at Mario's stats a little closely he has MFTL flight speed and reactions and as for galaxies have you not seen the maps of SMG 1 and 2 they are galaxy size which he flies to less than 10 seconds. Honestly this thread should be closed since this battle has been done multiple times
- 4,652
- 1,330
You should look at my comment a little closely. I already brought up the MFTL+ flight speed and reactions. The former will never come into play because as far as I know, Mario cannot spawn launch stars whenever he pleases, and the latter is not as high as you're making it out to be, as I'm about to cover. The Launch stars do launch him over galaxies (assuming that the galaxies in game actually are comparable to the size of our real-world galaxies like you're implying), but he's only shown reacting and dodging things mid flight over mid-stellar distances at best.
Also, care to specify what maps you're talking about?
If you're referring to the galaxies themselves, as in the levels, even the Mario Wiki seems to agree that the levels are massively smaller than actual galaxies, as they mostly consist of planetoid clusters, if even that, with the occasional galaxy in the background here and there.
If you're referring to the screens that the portals in the observatory lead you to, then the orbits that the "Galaxies" follow all seem to suggest that the map shown in the observatory portals are more like solar systems instead of galaxies, especially when you take my previous statement about the "Galaxies" into consideration.
If you're referring to SMG2's Grand Map, then it should be obvious. Mario is not doing any flying or reacting, you're simply piloting the ship. Even then, I still might even stick to the statement that these aren't real galaxies, as each world just contains several planets and planetoids.
So no. Mario is not galaxy-crossing MFTL+. He's MFTL+ over mid-stellar distances.
Meanwhile Kirby can react to NOVA, who can cross actual galaxies in short time frames. I'd even argue that Mario shouldn't even be Galaxy level, if you consider my statement about the galaxies once more. Even then, Kirby has fought an opponent who could destroy large portions of a galaxy, so even if Mario is Galaxy Level, Kirby's not that far off either. Mario cannot keep taking MSS attacks forever, especially from an opponent as fast and versatile as Kirby.
It doesn't matter if this matchup has been done before. You can have as many threads filled with Mario votes as you want; it doesn't make the outcome objective.
I vote Kirby with medium difficulty.
Also, care to specify what maps you're talking about?
If you're referring to the galaxies themselves, as in the levels, even the Mario Wiki seems to agree that the levels are massively smaller than actual galaxies, as they mostly consist of planetoid clusters, if even that, with the occasional galaxy in the background here and there.
If you're referring to the screens that the portals in the observatory lead you to, then the orbits that the "Galaxies" follow all seem to suggest that the map shown in the observatory portals are more like solar systems instead of galaxies, especially when you take my previous statement about the "Galaxies" into consideration.
If you're referring to SMG2's Grand Map, then it should be obvious. Mario is not doing any flying or reacting, you're simply piloting the ship. Even then, I still might even stick to the statement that these aren't real galaxies, as each world just contains several planets and planetoids.
So no. Mario is not galaxy-crossing MFTL+. He's MFTL+ over mid-stellar distances.
Meanwhile Kirby can react to NOVA, who can cross actual galaxies in short time frames. I'd even argue that Mario shouldn't even be Galaxy level, if you consider my statement about the galaxies once more. Even then, Kirby has fought an opponent who could destroy large portions of a galaxy, so even if Mario is Galaxy Level, Kirby's not that far off either. Mario cannot keep taking MSS attacks forever, especially from an opponent as fast and versatile as Kirby.
It doesn't matter if this matchup has been done before. You can have as many threads filled with Mario votes as you want; it doesn't make the outcome objective.
I vote Kirby with medium difficulty.
- 2,129
- 226
There are maps that are the size of actual galaxies. Staph downplaying the character
- 4,652
- 1,330
Again, do you mind showing me these galaxy sized maps? Do you even mind specifying which maps you're talking about? As long as you keep repeating yourself and ignoring my question, you can tell me that I'm downplaying all you want.
- 2,129
- 226
You do know that black hole feats dont qualify for wikia battles
Oh and the map
Also there is only one map thats like the solar system
And world 6 there where mario and Bowser fought in a black hole but since black hole arent qualified for battles it doesnt matter
Oh and the map
Also there is only one map thats like the solar system
And world 6 there where mario and Bowser fought in a black hole but since black hole arent qualified for battles it doesnt matter
- 4,652
- 1,330
Check my older comment for my rebuttal to Mario crossing these galaxies, which you would've been aware of if you read it. That's the ship transporting Mario across the galaxies, not Mario himself. He's not doing anything other than possibly piloting the ship, which doesn't necessarily account for reaction speed, as stated by this wiki's page on speed.
Also, black hole feats are usable if they're comparable to real-world black holes, as mentioned here. Kirby's black hole feat does seem comparable to an actual black hole, as it's at the center of a galaxy, so we can assume that it holds the entire galaxy together. But since the details regarding the black hole's properties are vague, you could have a point. Doesn't matter though; Kirby's at least 4-A regardless of how you invoke the black hole into the feat.
Also, black hole feats are usable if they're comparable to real-world black holes, as mentioned here. Kirby's black hole feat does seem comparable to an actual black hole, as it's at the center of a galaxy, so we can assume that it holds the entire galaxy together. But since the details regarding the black hole's properties are vague, you could have a point. Doesn't matter though; Kirby's at least 4-A regardless of how you invoke the black hole into the feat.
- 665
- 53
But Kirby has the speed advantge and he has more hax
- 665
- 53
Kirby has the invicibility candy and a lot of powers
- 4,652
- 1,330
It doesn't matter if Mario's got more AP and durability. The gap in speed and hax capability is massive and Kirby's not that far behind in Dura and AP, either. Mario cannot keep taking MSS hits forever, especially from an opponent as versatile and fast as Kirby.LTB2000 said:
Doesn't mario also have hax, with his invincibility star and could freeze kirby solid?.
Kirby's Super Abilities can break barriers placed up by Magolor, the same guy who can bend the fabric of the universe into a weapon. So theoretically, they have anti-reality warping properties, or at least reality warping properties beyond that of Magolor's. I'd be amazed if an invincibility powerup could cancel this out.
Mario's hax, AP, and Durability are all useless when you consider the fact that Kirby is immensely faster, and has enough hax to pull it off with aplomb. There's no way for Mario to win this unless you equalize speed.
I've changed my mind about Kirby winning with difficulty. This thread is an utter stomp for Kirby, and it should be closed.
- 2,129
- 226
Plus in SMG he didn't use nothing but the launch star travel galaxies in seconds and the same goes for SMG2 sure the ship Flies there but mario flies to each of the other galaxies in the game. Also black hole feats aren't qualified for wikia battles because him or her AP or durability would be Infinite which is a No No.
- 4,652
- 1,330
"He didn't use anything but the launch stars to travel galaxies in seconds"NotAMarioFan(lol) said:
Not sure how this is supposed to refute my point but okay.
And like I've said. The maps are not galaxies. And whenever they are actual galaxies, they're either in the background, or Mario isn't doing any reacting. Like I've said multiple times already; flight speed doesn't necessarily account for reaction speed. Trying to argue with that is arguing with the VS Battles Wiki itself. It even says so on the speed scale:
"High flight speed logically requires similar reaction speed in order to maneuver.
However, the problem with this supposition is that perceiving time at a proportionate rate to (for example) MFTL+ travel would also make it logically impossible to not go insane from any trip though the universe, as it would constantly feel like it took at least billions of years.
Building on this, it is much harder to write reasonable and entertaining stories and challenges for characters that perceive and can react to their surroundings at speeds that enormously transcend the speed of light. Any challenges and confrontations would logically be over in less than an instant."
Presumably, it's okay to disregard this if the characters are consistently shown with those reaction speeds (Otherwise Mario wouldn't have the Stellar MFTL+ speed), which Mario is not. He has only been shown with MFTL+ reactions over mid-stellar distances at best while Kirby has inter-galactic reaction speeds.
Like I have stated multiple times, the levels that Mario flies to are not the size of actual galaxies, as they mostly consist of small planetoids and debris rather than full-fledged celestial bodies and star systems. Stop ignoring that.
"Also black hole feats aren't qualified for wikia battles because infinite durability is a no no"
Seriously, are you even listening to me? I told you Kirby is at least 4-A and approaching galaxy level regardless of how you invoke the black hole into it. I was only bringing up the black hole to suggest the possibility that it could be higher, as the black hole was likely restricting the attack from reaching farther and destroying more celestial bodies than it actually did.
Stop cherrypicking at my arguments.
Bottom line: Kirby is far too versatile and fast for Mario to deal with, even with the advantage in AP and durability, and has the hax to pull it off, and there's no tap-dancing around that.
- 2,129
- 226
What I meant to say the starship stop to the nearest galaxies and mario flies to them
- 2,129
- 226
Actually most of the galaxies are actual size galaxie your probly looking at the planetoids in the game, but the background is the whole place we have been through this arguement multiple times of people saying his galaxies arent actual size (which they are).
- 4,652
- 1,330
Once again, I have already covered that multiple times.
Flight speed doesn't account for reaction speed unless the character is consistently shown to be able to react at those speeds, and Mario has not. He has flown over galactic distances with the assistance of the launch stars, but he's only been shown with MFTL+ reactions over stellar distances at best, if even that.
Please read my comment before responding. I'm getting a bit tired of your cherry-picking.
Flight speed doesn't account for reaction speed unless the character is consistently shown to be able to react at those speeds, and Mario has not. He has flown over galactic distances with the assistance of the launch stars, but he's only been shown with MFTL+ reactions over stellar distances at best, if even that.
Please read my comment before responding. I'm getting a bit tired of your cherry-picking.
- 2,129
- 226
Yet you keep saying "stellar" for some reason. And his reaction speed counts for reacting to for landing when he reaches the Galaxy at MFTL+ speeds.
My turn: Once again, we have done a arguement on whether or not they are galaxy-sized In SMG1 and 2. Which most of them are
My turn: Once again, we have done a arguement on whether or not they are galaxy-sized In SMG1 and 2. Which most of them are
- 4,652
- 1,330
They're stellar distances because that's the distances that he flies at best. The ship is practically already there on the "galaxy" when Mario is sent flying there. Your initial statement was "He crosses multiple galaxies", and that is what I'm refuting.
Kirby has fought and godstomped Dark Nebula and Miracle Matter (who should both be leagues above the basic dark matter soldiers, the same ones who could pass multiple galaxies in seconds ) and Marx, who could fly from Kirby's home to NOVA's summoning point in short time frames, as well as Dark Mind, who was capable of keeping up with the warpstar even when severely injured. He's done all of thison foot. Kirby has actual scaling to support him having the same reactions as his warp star, which has inter-galactic speed, while Mario has nothing of the sort other than controlling his flight, and the speed scale on this very website states that the correlation between flight speed and reaction speed doesn't work that way.
Even if I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that Mario can cross galaxies in ten seconds, it pales in comparison to Kirby's. Note the gif I linked to you about the Dark Matter soldiers; they pass by three galaxies in far less than ten seconds, if even a whole second. Kirby's fodderized opponents who should be vastly superior to those soldiers, as well as ones who can keep up with the warpstar, and he's done it all on foot, so Kirby having the reaction speed of his warp star and feats of combatting the likes of the Lor Starcutter mid-flight (And that feat was while riding Landia, not the warp star, mind you, and he's fought Landia on foot as well) is well supported, if not surpassed, by his reactions. Combine that with Kirby's sheer hax and overwhelming versatility, and Mario's not coming out of this alive.
The difference between your rebuttals and mine is that I've quoted, linked and explained the evidence multiple times to the extent that I end up producing a whole page's worth of debate. What argument were we having about the galaxy's size exactly? All you've been saying is that they're galaxy sized without bringing up many points to support your claim (I'm not Strawman-ing you here, I know you've respectfully formed some valid rebuttals), but like I've said above, it doesn't matter; the entire argument was based on how fast Mario actually was, not whether or not it's superior to Kirby's (which it's blatantly not, as I've already explained). Sorry for exploding on you a bit.
Kirby has fought and godstomped Dark Nebula and Miracle Matter (who should both be leagues above the basic dark matter soldiers, the same ones who could pass multiple galaxies in seconds ) and Marx, who could fly from Kirby's home to NOVA's summoning point in short time frames, as well as Dark Mind, who was capable of keeping up with the warpstar even when severely injured. He's done all of thison foot. Kirby has actual scaling to support him having the same reactions as his warp star, which has inter-galactic speed, while Mario has nothing of the sort other than controlling his flight, and the speed scale on this very website states that the correlation between flight speed and reaction speed doesn't work that way.
Even if I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that Mario can cross galaxies in ten seconds, it pales in comparison to Kirby's. Note the gif I linked to you about the Dark Matter soldiers; they pass by three galaxies in far less than ten seconds, if even a whole second. Kirby's fodderized opponents who should be vastly superior to those soldiers, as well as ones who can keep up with the warpstar, and he's done it all on foot, so Kirby having the reaction speed of his warp star and feats of combatting the likes of the Lor Starcutter mid-flight (And that feat was while riding Landia, not the warp star, mind you, and he's fought Landia on foot as well) is well supported, if not surpassed, by his reactions. Combine that with Kirby's sheer hax and overwhelming versatility, and Mario's not coming out of this alive.
The difference between your rebuttals and mine is that I've quoted, linked and explained the evidence multiple times to the extent that I end up producing a whole page's worth of debate. What argument were we having about the galaxy's size exactly? All you've been saying is that they're galaxy sized without bringing up many points to support your claim (I'm not Strawman-ing you here, I know you've respectfully formed some valid rebuttals), but like I've said above, it doesn't matter; the entire argument was based on how fast Mario actually was, not whether or not it's superior to Kirby's (which it's blatantly not, as I've already explained). Sorry for exploding on you a bit.
- 43
- 0
Kirby is more powerful because he can absorb Mario's attack!
- 445
- 50
Okay, sorry for being late to the fun! Regardless, there's very clear things going on here that need to be addressed.
Mario's speed: OP states "Mario." And never really limits him to the main series woth of games, therefore, I should be allowed to use Mario Party 6, where Mario escapes a moderately-sized black hole, making him very clearly FTL in travel speed, MFTL+ in reaction speed.
Mario's reaction speed VS Kirby's: Mario's wins, and I'll explain in a few seconds. The game always refers to the galaxies in Mario being "Galaxies." Whether you wanna judge them just by visual size or not, that doesn't change the game saying their galaxies. And that's that. Hell, the Mario series scales things down PLENTY of times, Super Mario World being my most notable example. And in Galaxy 1, Polari even states that the Comet Observatory reflects galaxies, & the Power Stars extend their sight to other further galaxies. There are a total of 70 Galaxies in Super Mario Galaxy, and the nearest Galaxy to us is called the Small Magellanic Cloud, which is 210,000 lightyears away.(There's proof)
Using that as average distance, let's multiply it's distance by 70, going to the furthest Galaxy in Mario Galaxy. 210,000 x 70 = 14,700,000. 14,700,000 lightyears. Let's use the screen as, well, the most popular answer. Ten seconds.
14,700,000 / 10 = 1,470,000. So, every second, Mario was traveling 1,470,000 lightyears, reacting perfectly fine. I.e. him moving, or, adjusting aim, & preparing for landing. Heck, he could even stop his speed in an instant, which is how he doesn't harm himself or the planet.
@Arbitrary: The most notable feat you brought up is Kirby traveling 3 galaxies in less than a second. Let's say he traveled six, shall we?
Using the same numbers for fairness reasons, 210,000 x 6 = 1,260,000 lightyears every second.
Mario reaction speed: 1,470,000 lightyears per second.
Kirby reaction speed: 1,260,000 lightyears per second.
Who's faster? Mario, clearly. Nice try, Kirby.
Mario VS Kirby: My vote's going for Mario, and here's why.
So, let's start with AP & durability. Kirby's Multi-Solar System Level, approaching Galaxy Level, right? Mario's superior to a Galaxy Level. But, well, that's not all. Mario's fought enemies that put him too far above Kirby. Even the whole verse!
Dreamy Bowser: "Oh man, I have so much power, I can do whatever I want! This island, this world, all of it... MINE! And you guys are... COOKED!"
Culex: "I can see the past. I can see the future. I am matter. I am antimatter. I consume time, & I'll consume you!"
Chakron: "With the power of Earth & Space, I can do anything."
"I am above, & all around. I am all that is you."
"There is nothing that Space knows not."
Dreamy Bowser, Culex & Chakron are the reasons Mario should win this. Possibly even King Boo & Dark Bowser, who I'll get to afterwards.
Those are quotes from Dreamy Bowser, Culex & Chakron. The last three being seperate quotes from Chakron. Dreamy Bowser can destroy the world. Sounds planetary, until you find that Mario language states that a world is a Universe.
Luigi even states that the world your in in Super Mario Galaxy 2 is "the Universe." Super Dimentio backs up that claim, & Miyamoto saying everything in Mario is just Mario, no "canon" or "non-canon," I think it's clear that with how frequently worlds are called Universes in Mario, it can be taken as fact.
So, Dreamy Bowser's Universal at least & has power to practically do anything, same with Chakron, who also clearly shows he's Omnipresent & Omniscient at the least. Being able to have enough power to do anything sure sounds like Omnipotence, but I'll leave that term alone, since it always has been vague. Culex is Universal, possibly Multi-Universal, very clearly extremely powerful. King Boo created a dimension, Universal, & Dark Bowser destroying the world PLUS Bowser's power, at least Universal, Mario's just far too powerful.
So, my vote? Mario, with ease.
Mario's speed: OP states "Mario." And never really limits him to the main series woth of games, therefore, I should be allowed to use Mario Party 6, where Mario escapes a moderately-sized black hole, making him very clearly FTL in travel speed, MFTL+ in reaction speed.
Mario's reaction speed VS Kirby's: Mario's wins, and I'll explain in a few seconds. The game always refers to the galaxies in Mario being "Galaxies." Whether you wanna judge them just by visual size or not, that doesn't change the game saying their galaxies. And that's that. Hell, the Mario series scales things down PLENTY of times, Super Mario World being my most notable example. And in Galaxy 1, Polari even states that the Comet Observatory reflects galaxies, & the Power Stars extend their sight to other further galaxies. There are a total of 70 Galaxies in Super Mario Galaxy, and the nearest Galaxy to us is called the Small Magellanic Cloud, which is 210,000 lightyears away.(There's proof)
Using that as average distance, let's multiply it's distance by 70, going to the furthest Galaxy in Mario Galaxy. 210,000 x 70 = 14,700,000. 14,700,000 lightyears. Let's use the screen as, well, the most popular answer. Ten seconds.
14,700,000 / 10 = 1,470,000. So, every second, Mario was traveling 1,470,000 lightyears, reacting perfectly fine. I.e. him moving, or, adjusting aim, & preparing for landing. Heck, he could even stop his speed in an instant, which is how he doesn't harm himself or the planet.
@Arbitrary: The most notable feat you brought up is Kirby traveling 3 galaxies in less than a second. Let's say he traveled six, shall we?
Using the same numbers for fairness reasons, 210,000 x 6 = 1,260,000 lightyears every second.
Mario reaction speed: 1,470,000 lightyears per second.
Kirby reaction speed: 1,260,000 lightyears per second.
Who's faster? Mario, clearly. Nice try, Kirby.
Mario VS Kirby: My vote's going for Mario, and here's why.
So, let's start with AP & durability. Kirby's Multi-Solar System Level, approaching Galaxy Level, right? Mario's superior to a Galaxy Level. But, well, that's not all. Mario's fought enemies that put him too far above Kirby. Even the whole verse!
Dreamy Bowser: "Oh man, I have so much power, I can do whatever I want! This island, this world, all of it... MINE! And you guys are... COOKED!"
Culex: "I can see the past. I can see the future. I am matter. I am antimatter. I consume time, & I'll consume you!"
Chakron: "With the power of Earth & Space, I can do anything."
"I am above, & all around. I am all that is you."
"There is nothing that Space knows not."
Dreamy Bowser, Culex & Chakron are the reasons Mario should win this. Possibly even King Boo & Dark Bowser, who I'll get to afterwards.
Those are quotes from Dreamy Bowser, Culex & Chakron. The last three being seperate quotes from Chakron. Dreamy Bowser can destroy the world. Sounds planetary, until you find that Mario language states that a world is a Universe.
Luigi even states that the world your in in Super Mario Galaxy 2 is "the Universe." Super Dimentio backs up that claim, & Miyamoto saying everything in Mario is just Mario, no "canon" or "non-canon," I think it's clear that with how frequently worlds are called Universes in Mario, it can be taken as fact.
So, Dreamy Bowser's Universal at least & has power to practically do anything, same with Chakron, who also clearly shows he's Omnipresent & Omniscient at the least. Being able to have enough power to do anything sure sounds like Omnipotence, but I'll leave that term alone, since it always has been vague. Culex is Universal, possibly Multi-Universal, very clearly extremely powerful. King Boo created a dimension, Universal, & Dark Bowser destroying the world PLUS Bowser's power, at least Universal, Mario's just far too powerful.
So, my vote? Mario, with ease.
- 4,652
- 1,330
No problem. Despite being mildly irritated, I was worried this would be yet another thread doomed to die off and have its results unaccounted for.
Since the OP never specified which Mario we're using, then by Standard Battle Assumptions, we have to use the strongest form of the character, meaning the one with the highest tier. So in Mario's case, the strongest one on his profile (The one that is linked to in this thread) is him as depicted in Super Mario Galaxy. He's generally shown to be on a completely different level than in most of his other games, hence why the profile segregates it from the rest. As for the wiki and it's tendency to segregate different verses like Paper Mario and Super Mario RPG , I have nothing, as I never followed the Mario verse on this site, so I don't know what the community's reason for that is. I'm sure there's a reason, though.
But like I've said multiple times about Mario having reaction speeds that come from his flight speed, the speed scale on this very wiki states that this isn't how the correlation between flight speed and reaction speed works. Read the section of the page on flight speed. It says that it would logically require reaction speed in order to maneuver it, but it clearly addresses the problem with that assumption when fiction is involved.
"High flight speed logically requires similar reaction speed in order to manoeuvre.
However, the problem with this supposition is that perceiving time at a proportionate rate to (for example) MFTL+ travel would also make it logically impossible to not go insane from any trip though the universe, as it would constantly feel like it took at least billions of years.
Building on this, it is much harder to write reasonable and entertaining stories and challenges for characters that perceive and can react to their surroundings at speeds that enormously transcend the speed of light. Any challenges and confrontations would logically be over in less than an instant."
I'm sure Landing the flight is no exception to that, since in order to land, you'd need to maneuver it.
Kirby has tons of scaling to support him having the same reaction speed as his warp star, so he has evidence to support him having MFTL+ reaction speeds outside of flight itself, while Mario does not. The most significant thing I brought up was Kirby defeating Landia, who could later keep up with the Lor Starcutter (After being split up into four mini-dragons IIRC).
As for the galaxies themselves, I wasn't judging them entirely by their visual size; I was judging them by what they contain, as well as their size. They don't contain star systems or significant celestial bodies that one would expect them to contain. It's not just about how scaled down they are. The tower in SMW is clearly a scaled down version of an actual castle;,and it contains death traps, soldiers, lava, etc, just like what you'd expect from a castle, and it's far bigger on the inside than it is on the outside. However, when we're talking about galaxies, it's a completely different story; A galaxy is defined as a system of millions or billions of stars, gas, and dust, all held together by gravitation. You cannot compare that to a group of planetoids and debris. In fact, the observatory maps in Super Mario Galaxy 1 more resemble solar systems to me.
All of that being said, I do think you crunched your numbers correctly. I have no rebuttals regarding your calc on its own.
As for Dreamy Bowser, Culex, and Chakron; by Standard Battle Assumptions, we're using Galaxy Mario, so everything you've mentioned about those three is irrelevant. And like I've said, there's probably a reason as to why those feats were not accounted for on Mario's profile. Likely because they're huge outliers compared to what Mario has usually been shown, just like how Kirby isn't scaled to Magolor because he goes from trading blows with a Universal reality warping demigod without using Super Abilities to having immense trouble defeating a planetary enemy one game later.
King Boo and Dark Bowser are still irrelevant because we're using SMG Mario, but I'll give you a response in that area anyways.
As for King Boo, he materialized a mansion with pocket dimensions, not full-fledged universes. He's universal via creating portals that caused paranormality that would destroy the universe if the portal wasn't closed. That's something that King Boo does by opening portals, not with his physical strength, and he lacks the Universal durability, so the Mario Bros. wouldn't scale to him.
As for Dark Bowser, it's true that he did plan to destroy the world. However, "World" does not always necessarily mean "Universe". It has tons of different definitions to it, so "World" is always vague unless specified. It's likely Country Level to Planet Level, because that's how Dark Bowser is ranked on this wiki. Bowser himself is only Universe Level with black holes, and that's ranked exclusively to SMG Bowser with a Grand Star. Base form Bowser, outside of SMG, is Country Level to Large Planet Level, so Dark Bowser likely scales to him.
Overall, I'm keeping my vote on Kirby. Thanks for the full-fledged response, though.
Since the OP never specified which Mario we're using, then by Standard Battle Assumptions, we have to use the strongest form of the character, meaning the one with the highest tier. So in Mario's case, the strongest one on his profile (The one that is linked to in this thread) is him as depicted in Super Mario Galaxy. He's generally shown to be on a completely different level than in most of his other games, hence why the profile segregates it from the rest. As for the wiki and it's tendency to segregate different verses like Paper Mario and Super Mario RPG , I have nothing, as I never followed the Mario verse on this site, so I don't know what the community's reason for that is. I'm sure there's a reason, though.
But like I've said multiple times about Mario having reaction speeds that come from his flight speed, the speed scale on this very wiki states that this isn't how the correlation between flight speed and reaction speed works. Read the section of the page on flight speed. It says that it would logically require reaction speed in order to maneuver it, but it clearly addresses the problem with that assumption when fiction is involved.
"High flight speed logically requires similar reaction speed in order to manoeuvre.
However, the problem with this supposition is that perceiving time at a proportionate rate to (for example) MFTL+ travel would also make it logically impossible to not go insane from any trip though the universe, as it would constantly feel like it took at least billions of years.
Building on this, it is much harder to write reasonable and entertaining stories and challenges for characters that perceive and can react to their surroundings at speeds that enormously transcend the speed of light. Any challenges and confrontations would logically be over in less than an instant."
I'm sure Landing the flight is no exception to that, since in order to land, you'd need to maneuver it.
Kirby has tons of scaling to support him having the same reaction speed as his warp star, so he has evidence to support him having MFTL+ reaction speeds outside of flight itself, while Mario does not. The most significant thing I brought up was Kirby defeating Landia, who could later keep up with the Lor Starcutter (After being split up into four mini-dragons IIRC).
As for the galaxies themselves, I wasn't judging them entirely by their visual size; I was judging them by what they contain, as well as their size. They don't contain star systems or significant celestial bodies that one would expect them to contain. It's not just about how scaled down they are. The tower in SMW is clearly a scaled down version of an actual castle;,and it contains death traps, soldiers, lava, etc, just like what you'd expect from a castle, and it's far bigger on the inside than it is on the outside. However, when we're talking about galaxies, it's a completely different story; A galaxy is defined as a system of millions or billions of stars, gas, and dust, all held together by gravitation. You cannot compare that to a group of planetoids and debris. In fact, the observatory maps in Super Mario Galaxy 1 more resemble solar systems to me.
All of that being said, I do think you crunched your numbers correctly. I have no rebuttals regarding your calc on its own.
As for Dreamy Bowser, Culex, and Chakron; by Standard Battle Assumptions, we're using Galaxy Mario, so everything you've mentioned about those three is irrelevant. And like I've said, there's probably a reason as to why those feats were not accounted for on Mario's profile. Likely because they're huge outliers compared to what Mario has usually been shown, just like how Kirby isn't scaled to Magolor because he goes from trading blows with a Universal reality warping demigod without using Super Abilities to having immense trouble defeating a planetary enemy one game later.
King Boo and Dark Bowser are still irrelevant because we're using SMG Mario, but I'll give you a response in that area anyways.
As for King Boo, he materialized a mansion with pocket dimensions, not full-fledged universes. He's universal via creating portals that caused paranormality that would destroy the universe if the portal wasn't closed. That's something that King Boo does by opening portals, not with his physical strength, and he lacks the Universal durability, so the Mario Bros. wouldn't scale to him.
As for Dark Bowser, it's true that he did plan to destroy the world. However, "World" does not always necessarily mean "Universe". It has tons of different definitions to it, so "World" is always vague unless specified. It's likely Country Level to Planet Level, because that's how Dark Bowser is ranked on this wiki. Bowser himself is only Universe Level with black holes, and that's ranked exclusively to SMG Bowser with a Grand Star. Base form Bowser, outside of SMG, is Country Level to Large Planet Level, so Dark Bowser likely scales to him.
Overall, I'm keeping my vote on Kirby. Thanks for the full-fledged response, though.
- 4,652
- 1,330
I was never trying to say that Mario Galaxy didn't have actual galaxies. I was just saying that the levels they refer to are just called Galaxies. I can accept that the ones in the background like in world 5 are legitimate galaxies as opposed to the levels, who are simply smaller collections of planetoids.
- 445
- 50
Well, maybe that don't count, so I'll go with Galaxy feats, where Mario still should win. So, in the first Super Mario Galaxy, Mario tanks that Supernova, right? Well, the name of the mission is "The Fate of theUniverse."
Not only this, but later, Rosalina resets the Universe. Here's the final cutscene, for reference. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1BvKt4pRWmE
So, it sounds mostly like a Universal explosion. If this were true, then Mario is immune to Universal Supernovas.
Hey, you not buying it? Yhat's okay. Bowser states, after his defeat & before the Star exploded, that his galaxy was collapsing. So this means Mario's immune to Galaxy Level crap, meanwhile Kirby is Multi-Solar System Level, approaching Galaxy Level. Basically, what I'm trying to get at is that Mario won't be effected by any of Kirby's attacks. Long story short, Mario VS Kirby is like Human VS Fly.
The fly can fly around the human for days, but he ain't gonna so much as dent Mario. Meanwhile, Mario's dilemma is hitting Kirby, which he could likely do. Kirby doesn't have infinite stamina, and on foot is slower than the Warp Star. All Mario has to do is hit him once, and Kirby will be sent packing. If he has that much trouble, he could just blow up the Galaxy. Kirby wouldn't survive, and if he did, it'd be barely. Also, remember, Kirby hasn't fully matured, despite his age. He is naive, and Kirby wouldn't just run or take a cautious approach, since he has no prior knowledge on Mario.
So, I say Mario wins with mid-difficulty. He's gonna probably have to work hard to hit Kirby. But, once he does, Kirby's done.
Not only this, but later, Rosalina resets the Universe. Here's the final cutscene, for reference. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1BvKt4pRWmE
So, it sounds mostly like a Universal explosion. If this were true, then Mario is immune to Universal Supernovas.
Hey, you not buying it? Yhat's okay. Bowser states, after his defeat & before the Star exploded, that his galaxy was collapsing. So this means Mario's immune to Galaxy Level crap, meanwhile Kirby is Multi-Solar System Level, approaching Galaxy Level. Basically, what I'm trying to get at is that Mario won't be effected by any of Kirby's attacks. Long story short, Mario VS Kirby is like Human VS Fly.
The fly can fly around the human for days, but he ain't gonna so much as dent Mario. Meanwhile, Mario's dilemma is hitting Kirby, which he could likely do. Kirby doesn't have infinite stamina, and on foot is slower than the Warp Star. All Mario has to do is hit him once, and Kirby will be sent packing. If he has that much trouble, he could just blow up the Galaxy. Kirby wouldn't survive, and if he did, it'd be barely. Also, remember, Kirby hasn't fully matured, despite his age. He is naive, and Kirby wouldn't just run or take a cautious approach, since he has no prior knowledge on Mario.
So, I say Mario wins with mid-difficulty. He's gonna probably have to work hard to hit Kirby. But, once he does, Kirby's done.
- 4,652
- 1,330
Mario never tanked the explosion. The Supernova occured, and the Universe was reset. We don't see what happens to Mario in between, so there's nothing suggesting that he survived it, ESPECIALLY since Rosalina reset the universe. Rosalina explaining the cycle of life to him is after the Universe is reset, just before he wakes up at Peach's castle in the newborn universe. There's a reason that Mario's durability isn't Universe Level, not to mention it's a HUGE outlier, even after we take all of SMG Mario's other feats into account and assume that he even survived the explosion in the first place.
So no, he's not Universe Level. He's "at least Galaxy Level", which still doesn't justify him being able to tank "at least Multi Solar System Level+" attacks forever.
"Kirby, on foot, is slower than the Warp Star".
No, he's really not. I mentioned earlier that he defeated opponents who were capable of holding their own against the Warp Star and the Lor Starcutter alike, and in weakened/lesser states. Dark Mind was severely wounded, and Landia was split up into four mini-dragons.
"Kirby is naive".
Doesn't really close the gap in speed, especially since Kirby would likely be able to surpass his durability through consecutive hits before he could blink.
Not to mention that Kirby has tons of different abilities that allow him to make a plethora of different approaches to Mario, while SMG Mario is arguably lacking in that category.
So no, Kirby wins this with low difficulty. The only thing helping Mario in this fight is his advantage in durability and AP.
So no, he's not Universe Level. He's "at least Galaxy Level", which still doesn't justify him being able to tank "at least Multi Solar System Level+" attacks forever.
"Kirby, on foot, is slower than the Warp Star".
No, he's really not. I mentioned earlier that he defeated opponents who were capable of holding their own against the Warp Star and the Lor Starcutter alike, and in weakened/lesser states. Dark Mind was severely wounded, and Landia was split up into four mini-dragons.
"Kirby is naive".
Doesn't really close the gap in speed, especially since Kirby would likely be able to surpass his durability through consecutive hits before he could blink.
Not to mention that Kirby has tons of different abilities that allow him to make a plethora of different approaches to Mario, while SMG Mario is arguably lacking in that category.
So no, Kirby wins this with low difficulty. The only thing helping Mario in this fight is his advantage in durability and AP.
Similar threads
