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KNY Speed (Redo)

Insert_creative_name_here_12

Insert_creative_name_here_12

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Currently the BoS characters are hypersonic with high hypersonic reactions due to this calc. The issue with this is the justification for using transonic speed for the swamp demon when it has no fte feats and other weaker demons like the temple demon are never portrayed as fte in the manga.

The stronger characters are at MHS due to scaling off Zou Hakuten who can produce electricity, but there are a couple anti feats that contradict this.

Kanroji who scales directly to him is hit with a sound attack before she can stop him
IMG-1690
IMG-1689




and is later stopped by Nakime's ability twice
IMG-1691
IMG-1692


Obanai is stopped by the same ability as well
IMG-1693
.
IMG-1694


Sanemi also attempts to use a gun on Kokushibo and expected it to work.
IMG-1695
There's a calc for Muichiro that produced MHS results. However when I consulted Dargoo Faust he said he disagreed and sees no reason for the slashes to be limited to a certain number of fish per slash and that the feat could be performed with far less slashes.
 
I'm unsure if I commented before but I disagree with hypersonic when you have those feats around. If there were more feats from the cast on that level it would be great but nadah.

I'd use the argument of Kuzan struggling to get away from the sun as an issue, but that can be attributed to attrition.
 
You can ask the following members to comment here:

Apex PredatorX

Dragonmasterxyz

Ciruno Fortes

DemonGodMitchAubin

Qliphoth Bacikal

IvoryAS

Arrogant Schmuck
 
I've already stated my stance on being supportive of the downgrade
 
For a few of the above and other reasons brought up in the previous thread
 
the swamp demon when it has no fte feats
He has by virtue of fighting Tanjiro and Nezuko and being somewhat comparable (despite being slower by an unspecified degree). By this logic, a characters who fights against MHS+ and FTL characters is actually below subsonic unless they are portrayed to move FTE for the audience.

and other weaker demons like the temple demon are never portrayed as fte in the manga.
The anime is secondary canon as it is overseen by the author (Gotōge-san is involved in checking over the scenarios, character designs, settings, and overall they are intimately involved in the anime adaptation process. I was in constant contact with Gotōge-san throughout production. They actually have a great deal of trust in ufotable, so it was less about requesting changes and more about giving them useful advice to make the best work possible. In my opinion, it was a great working relationship.). Also, weaker newly created demons are indeed portrayed to move FTE in the manga.

Kanroji who scales directly to him is hit with a sound attack before she can stop him
Then this is either a low outlier we can ignore, or it is something that can explained in-series by the character being caught off-guard by an invisible AoE attack. This can be explained by the later, therefore we shouldn't assume an outlier or that the scene is 'completely and irreconcilably inconsistent'; Mitsuri was unaware of Zou Hakuten's fullset of abilities, and was planning to behead him and retreat as soon as she lands on the ground; she beheaded him but an unexpected invisible AoE attack hit her before she lands on the ground.

and is later stopped by Nakime's ability twice
SFX are in-line with The Coconut Effect; we know Dragon Ball characters fight at FTL, but if they are portrayed to do so without sound effects it would annoying and immersion-breaking for the audience (regardless if it is unrealistic), so this does not constitute a serious argument. Nakime's ability for Spatial Manipulation is likened to someone moving their own body.

Sanemi also attempts to use a gun on Kokushibo and expected it to work.
By a Nichirin shotgun, which means that it can be enhanced for a variety of effects when combined with Breathing Techniques. Massively slower demons are able to react to a shot from stealth (and Tanjiro said that they allowed themselves to be hit and decapitated on purpose), and even block them. When Genya tried to snipe Kokushibo from stealth, Kokushibo casually blitzes him after he fires, even though Genya was able to blitz the demon who blocked the pellets. If Sanemi was expecting the Nichirin pellets to hit Kokushibo then he was he further enhancing their speed just like he enhanced the gun's durability to block Kokushibo's slash (he wasn't expecting them to kill, only distract him enough that he can free his sword)

There's a calc for Muichiro that produced MHS results. However when I consulted Dargoo Faust he said he disagreed and sees no reason for the slashes to be limited to one per fish and that the feat could be performed with far less slashes.
Um... One slash per fish is literally the highest possible end for the feat and it produces MHS+ results. The one that got accepted is slashing 10 fish on average per slash since Muichiro was only aiming directly downwards.

To gather low-level FTE and supersonic feats that scale to BoS Tanjiro and therefore superior characters:

  • Temari Demon and Arrow Demon moving FTE
  • To anticipate the objection of "why doesn't he rush the Drum Demon in a straight line if he is faster than sound" (which Tanjiro said he might have been able to do if he wasn't injured), this isn't an effective tactic since the Drum Demon is able to send both Tanjiro and Inosuke flying away with his Spatial Manipulation even if they are at sword's reach.
  • Inosuke blitzes the Horned Demon who was surprised that a human managed to dodge his attack, and who has managed to injure the Drum Demon even though he spams Spatial Manipulation and invisible sound attacks.
  • An injured Tanjiro moves FTE agai.
  • Rui shoots webs that slices the Greedy Demon Slayer before he can react.
  • Inosuke barely reacts to the transformed Spider Father even though he was previously blitzed
  • Nezuko exists the box and moves in front of Tanjiro before Rui's webs can reach him
  • Tanjiro dodges Rui with FTE movement
  • Nezuko dodges Kanao's attack
  • Mom Demon knocks the door and then breaks through it in front of Genya, slashes four of his siblings, jumps to the ceiling, and destroys the light bulb faster than Genya can perceive it. And for the previous objection, yes human can reach superhuman levels by our standards without Breathing techniques, so Genya reacting to the second attack is more than adequately explained by adrenaline.
 
Swamp Demon was continuously outpaced and repeatedly failed to dodge properly and has been percieved by a normal human twice.

Just because it is secondary canon it doesn't mean we take it over the primary canon.

If it's coconut effect, why does the author specifically place the sound before the ability casts? The difference between Kanroji and speed of sound is like a snail and a human even if she was off guard she should've been able to complete her attack and then some before the attack could travel to her.

What properties? We're never shown anything besides regen neg from red blades and generally stronger swords for all of them, are we just going to assume different properties for them? They can't affect gun powder plain and simple, unless you can prove they can.

All but two of the feats you provided are from people faster than the swamp demon. The temple demon never moved fte in the manga. We already discussed Genya's mother and how right after he can percieve her movements and Sanemi can intercept her physically. Sanemi himself doesn't even mention that he had superb physical ability at that time and entirely credits his marechi for killing demons.

Why is it limted to one per slash? The fish are densely packed together and he has extended range being able to cut multiple with a single slash isn't out of the question and is supported by Dargoo (a calc group member).
 
It would seem I made a mistake, the difference between Kanroji and the speed of sound is greater than the difference between a human and a snail in speed.
 
A lot of the manga panels you list being FTE aren't that, that's an author showing the speed and impact of movement. No one ever calls these faster than the eye, they're just fast.
 
The Swamp Demon being slower to an unknown degree is irrelevant; he still scales since hei somewhat comparable. A civilian shouting is either a low outlier that can be ignored, or is an example of Talking Is A Free Actio in order to convey to the audience that he is terrified.

Nothing cited contradicts the manga, and is compatible with it.

The SFX are used as an indication that the ability is being cast. The claim that Spatial Manipulation is at the speed of sound is your own headcanon; we know that it is comparable to Nakime's body movement.

For example, the ability to "draw gusts of wind from the sky, then send multiple blasts towards the ground", the ability to create mist, the ability to slash from afar; please explain to me how breathing oxygen does that and I'll explain to you the physics behind how the speed of the bullets got faster.

I am not compelled to argue for the highest end of the calculation; only the accepted end.

The rest has been addressed.
 
Would you stop specifying the civilian shouting? The issue isn't that, the issue is that the civilian reacted to this demon twice without issue.
 
It is relevant cause it proves he doesn't scale to them and is in fact inferior to them as shown by several pages of him getting mutilated before he can react, failing to properly dodge and stating Nezuko is so fast he can't sink into the ground.

How is that talking is free action? He's even turning towards it while it's attacking. Other scan is him literally seeing it mid attack so no it isn't fte.
IMG-1705
Irregardless we shouldn't place secondary canon above the original source.

You've yet to answer the question. Why would the author have the sound effect before the move is even cast? The same exact scene would've played out if it occured at the same time as the ability but yet Goutoge consistently places the sound before the ability casts and even then this isn't the first time an ability like this has appeared in the series.

All those things you mentioned are due to their breathing forms and simple slashes, the mist generation and extended range has nothing to do with enhancing gun powder.

10 per slash is an assumption that you've yet to properly explain the reasoning for. Why does the angle limit the slashes so heavily?
 
@Spino

Thank you for helping out.
 
@Insert creative name here 12

Nobody is disputing that the Swamp Demon is outpaced, so reiterating this point is pointless. Him dodging multiple attacks and Tanjiro struggling to get a direct hit makes him somewhat comparable to Tanjiro and Nezuko (regardless to being slower to an unspecified degree).

That is a very mild example of Talking Is A Free Action, and if you insist you can consider it a minor outlier that can be ignored in the presence of superior feats. Acknowledging that Tanjiro is faster than sound and that the Swamp Demon is much superior to FTE low level demons, but insisting that the fight is below subsonic is beyond ridiculous.

I have already answered; the SFX indicates the ability is cast and is therefore simulentaneous just like your typical SFX; they are plenty of panels where the ability and SFX are shown together by the way.

Variable speeds for the gun is already proven. If we can't explain how breathing oxygen causes the other abilities, then we'll have to settle that breathing oxygen just does this ability.

You insisted that the gun being made from Nichirin is an unwaranted assumption, even though it had been pointed out that Tanjiro explicitly states that the gun smells like a Nichirin weapon, so I am afraid I don't trust your judgement on what constitutes an unwarranted assumption.

@Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan

Thank you for the input. Can you elaborate on what makes it invalid, and are there any suggestions to fix it?

MHS+ feats are included at the end of the calc, so it wouldn't be an outlier.
 
If he's continuously failing to properly evade attacks, getting attacked before he can react and stating Nezuko is too fast for him to even use his ability then he shouldn't scale to them.

Strawman. Never said anything about Tanjirou's speed. Swamp demon is what is being disputed and he was percieved on two occasions by a normal human. What do you consider talking is a free action to be? The scan I posted doesn't even have talking.

Yet more often than not the strum occurs before the attack is cast, heck the only time it occurs with the ability is when Nakime is off screen and distanced from her targets.

When did you prove that? Ah no we won't. We already know the cause of the extended range and mist generation is breathing technique forms and none of those forms have anything to do with gun powder.

I find it funny how you're saying that when you just attempted to link properties of the breathing forms to enhancing gun powder, but it's fine you're very much welcome to not trust me Shadow.

Majority of what was at the end of that calc aren't MHS feats. It's just Kaigaku's questionable lightning, a calc based on it, a statement that means nothing and Kanroji cutting Zou Hakuten's attacks which are being called into question cause Kanroji keeps getting hit with speed of sound abilities.
 
My 2 cents: Temple Demon is Subsonic/FTE for blitzing Tanjiro (it is explicitly FTE in the anime) Swamp Demon is likely slower than Kyogai's speed-of-sound attacks. (since this fight comes before Kyogai, who is the first mention of speed of sound attacks) Kyogai is speed of sound using his drum, and Tanjiro is Transonic to Hypersonic for dodging. Perhaps a calc is needed here.

Characters do get faster as the series progresses, but I personally do not see them reaching MHS. Perhaps calculations could be made to bring them to Hypersonic but with many MHS feats in dispute, and the plethora of anti-feats it seems they are not meant to be viewed as fast as literal lightning let alone beyond that.
 
I have to agree with Insert here, the calc seems to have too many assumptions and the there are a lot of anti-feats, I would disagree on the gun argument tho, guns in anime and manga (especially demon possessed ones) don't tend to follow the rules of reality

But overall I have to say that Insert has the better argument
 
@Demon thanks for the input.

@Antvasima how many people are required to agree with this? I don't think anyone wants this to drag on to 300 comments like the last one.
 
I agree with the downgrade here since it makes more sense and was fairly simple. Tanjiro would have absolutely no trouble to dodge some Sonic booms if he was Hypersonic-Hypersonic or MHS obviously. Him getting tagged should be be taken into account and that's what Insert pointed out. Overall I agree with his arguments as they are much accurate.
 
People seems to ignore the context of why Tanjirou couldn't dodge the sonic attack. I agree with Shadow here
 
RageComment said:
My 2 cents: Temple Demon is Subsonic/FTE for blitzing Tanjiro (it is explicitly FTE in the anime) Swamp Demon is likely slower than Kyogai's speed-of-sound attacks. (since this fight comes before Kyogai, who is the first mention of speed of sound attacks) Kyogai is speed of sound using his drum, and Tanjiro is Transonic to Hypersonic for dodging. Perhaps a calc is needed here.

Characters do get faster as the series progresses, but I personally do not see them reaching MHS. Perhaps calculations could be made to bring them to Hypersonic but with many MHS feats in dispute, and the plethora of anti-feats it seems they are not meant to be viewed as fast as literal lightning let alone beyond that.
Click to expand...
The Swamp Demon is somewhat comparable to Tanjiro and Nezuko as they struggle to get a clean hit, and has even managed to dodge multiple attacks from Tanjiro in a row. Tanjiro and Nezuko are faster than sound as shown above. The Swamp Demon also scales higher than the Tongue and Horned demons who fought a sonic attack spammer, and those two got blitzed by Zenitsu and Inosuke. Therefore transonic is more reasonable.

Anyone who gave Avatar: The Last Airbender's main characters a good fight would get a MHS combat speed, regardless if they appeared before or after the introduction/mention of lightning bending and lightning dodging/blocking feats. So the Swamp Demon appearing before the introduction of sonic attacks is no evidence that he is slower than sound, especially since Tanjiro got no trainng since and in fact got weaker and slower due to injury.

Avatar: The Last Airbender manipulating water/wind/rocks/fire at MHS speed and moving at that speed is counter-intuitive, but it is the logical conclusion of lightning feats. So feeling weird is not a good argument. KnY is significantly less counter-intuitive, since we have stuff like Character A gets casually blitzed by Character B, and Character B gets casually blitzed by Character C, and Character C gets casually blitzed by Character D, and Character D gets casually blitzed by Character E, etc. The existance of massive speed gaps between characters is very well established, so lightning speed isn't weird at all.

Claim of anti-feats adressed below.

You said that there are "many" assumptions. Can you name some of them?

As explained, sound effects and being caught off-guard by invisible AoE sonic attacks while unaware of opponent's abilities do not constitute subsonic anti-feats, as they are common narrative tropes or consistent with the characters. And even if we say they are anti-feats for the sake of argument (which we shouldn't as they are perfectly reconcilable with characters being massively faster than sound), the alleged anti-feats would constitute nothing but outliers, and therefore are to be rejected.

As demonstrated, it is clear from manga and anime that low-level characters are faster than sound and can even blitz demons who can fight sonic attack spammers. So if you claim that characters whose speed are in an other dimension compared to sound attacks scale subsonic based on an anti-feat then this is an outlier that gets rejected; there are clear-cut subsonic anti-feats in Dragon Ball and they get rejected.
 
M3X said:
People seems to ignore the context of why Tanjirou couldn't dodge the sonic attack. I agree with Shadow here
Click to expand...
There are other anti feats like how Knaroji keeps getting hit by speed of sound abilities.

@Shadow he never dodged multiple attacks. That is anime only and the secondary canon doesn't take precedence over the primary.

Swamp demon has no fte feats and is visible to the naked eye of a human mid attack so he isn't speed of sound. He also says Nezuko is too fast for him to use his ability and is attacked before he can even react more than once.

If the sound of an instrument occurs before Nakime's ability casts and apperently MHS+ Kanroji fails to complete her attack in time then it is an anti feat. The attack is so slow to Kanroji that she could've diced Zou Hakuten's head to small chunks before it even touched her. MHS characters have no business being hit or repelled by things over 1000 times slower than them.

I believe you mean clear cut anti feats in DBS a series known for having terrible power scaling and being wildly inconsistent. If you wish to make a crt to downgrade it be my guest.

The anti feats hold because they barely have backing for MHS. Kanroji scales to Zou Hakuten but gets tagged by speed of sound attacks regularly. You still haven't explained why you're assuming 10 slashes for your calc and a calc group memeber and even then if the fish all have uniform cross sections why do they have slashes on differeing body parts for example some are cut at the tails while others are cut at the gills.
 
Insert creative name here 12 said:
@Antvasima how many people are required to agree with this? I don't think anyone wants this to drag on to 300 comments like the last one.
Click to expand...
Can you remind me of what is being argued here with an easy to understand summary, and list the members who agree and disagree please?
 
@Antvasima I'm attempting to downgrade the speed of the verse due to several outliers and lack of evidence to support the current rating. The MHS rating is supported by a character with electricity and a calc made by ShadowWhoWalks.

The character with electrical powers scales directly to another character who is repeatedly hit or repelled by abilites that are the speed of sound.

The calc made by Shadow assumes a value that produces MHS ratings and when I asked Dargoo Faust he said there was no reason to assume that value and disagreed with the calculation's results.

Lower level characters are hypersonic due to a calc M3X made that relied on evidence not shown in the series.

Those in agreement with the downgrade:

Ciruno Fortes

Duedate8898

RageComment (agrees with MHS speed being wrong)

Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan (he disagrees with Shadow's calc but is unsure of other points)

DemonGodMitchAubin

Torein

Apex PredatorX

Those who disagree with it:

ShadowWhoWalks

M3X
 
Insert creative name here 12 said:
There are other anti feats like how Knaroji keeps getting hit by speed of sound abilities.
Click to expand...
She was hit only once when caught off-guard by an unexpected invisible AoE attack. No evidence is given that Spatial Manipulation which is described to be as easy as moving limbs is at or slower than the speed of sound, nor is there evidence or counter-argument given that mid-tiers cannot casually blitz sound.

Insert creative name here 12 said:
@Shadow he never dodged multiple attacks. That is anime only and the secondary canon doesn't take precedence over the primary.
Click to expand...
Downplay/misinformation: The manga shows that the Swamp Demon mostly dodged Water Wheel followed by a vertical slash and then a horizontal slash, which means that he dodged three attacks in succession. The anime which has been overseen by the author only affirms this fact.

Insert creative name here 12 said:
Swamp demon has no fte feats and is visible to the naked eye of a human mid attack so he isn't speed of sound. He also says Nezuko is too fast for him to use his ability and is attacked before he can even react more than once.
Click to expand...
Downplay/misinformation: Speed is more often assigned via. scaling, and since the Swamp Demon scales at transonic or higher, he by default has FTE feats. The civilian is either a mild example of the common Talking is a Free Action troupe or outlier; either way it is irrelevant.

Insert creative name here 12 said:
If the sound of an instrument occurs before Nakime's ability casts and apperently MHS+ Kanroji fails to complete her attack in time then it is an anti feat. The attack is so slow to Kanroji that she could've diced Zou Hakuten's head to small chunks before it even touched her. MHS characters have no business being hit or repelled by things over 1000 times slower than them.
Click to expand...
Downplay/misinformation: SFX is simultaneous with the ability for the audience and does not behave like real sounds as typical of battle shonen. No evidence is given that Spatial Manipulation which is described to be as easy as moving limbs is at or slower than the speed of sound, nor is there evidence or counter-argument given that mid-tiers cannot casually blitz sound. Mitsuri did not assume that Zou Houken is at the speed of sound to recklessly keep attacking him; she just went to behead him and was going to immediately retreat when she figured out beheading is a waste of time.

Insert creative name here 12 said:
I believe you mean clear cut anti feats in DBS a series known for having terrible power scaling and being wildly inconsistent. If you wish to make a crt to downgrade it be my guest.
Click to expand...
If you consider sound effects subsonic anti-feats, that is throughout Dragon Ball. The thing is that unlike you here, neither I nor do people generally take outliers seriously.

Insert creative name here 12 said:
The anti feats hold because they barely have backing for MHS. Kanroji scales to Zou Hakuten but gets tagged by speed of sound attacks regularly. You still haven't explained why you're assuming 10 slashes for your calc and a calc group memeber and even then if the fish all have uniform cross sections why do they have slashes on differeing body parts for example some are cut at the tails while others are cut at the gills.
Click to expand...
Downplay/misinformation: If the alleged anti-feats are indeed anti-feats then they are outliers that should get ignored by default, as we know the characters in question can casually blitz characters who can casually blitz speed of sound characters. Only one backing is needed if it is consistent with the verse, as most speed status gets assigned via. scaling; it is consistent with the verse and there are multiple backings. The explanation was already given to a calc member who have read the calc which is why the calc was accepted; Dargoo and Spino disputed however you provided a false mischaracterization of the calc as you stated in the OP ("no reason for the slashes to be limited to one per fish") so you led them to find a strawman invalid. The positioning ofthe cuts are irrelevant regardless if they are slightly before or after the gill; the cutting angle is what is relevant, and as indicated by the cross-section the cutting direction is directly below Muichiro, which means that Muichiro is only able to aim at a fraction of the incoming fish.
 
Again even if the attack was invisible she's over 1000 times faster than said attack and could've diced his head before the attack even touched her. Nakime's attacks occur after the sound of her instrument even if it's instant, the fact Kanroji could'nt complete her attack before the sound was released or that Obanai got intercepted by it are anti feats.

He failed to dodge correctly and only dodged one attack properly which would be reaction speed. Even if the author oversaw the anime that still doesn't change what the original source said and that's that he only dodged one attack. You're also ignoring the various times he was outpaced or when he stated Nezuko is too fast for him to use his ability.

How does he scale? Because he had a blood demon art? Nezuko didn't even know what her's was or how to activate it and was beating him down in their fight. He doesn't scale to Tanjirou or Nezuko period. If he did he'd have been properly dodging them and wouldn't have had to rely on learning Nezuko's simple moves and his regen to hit her once and right after Tanjirou attacks faster than he can.

Then I ask you again why did the author omn several occasions place the sound before the ability was cast? The only time Gotouge has portrayed a sound before an attack is cast was with Kyogai's ability. I've posted several scans of Nakime's ability up top that show the strum occur before ability is cast and as I've said, only time it appears along side her power is when she's off screen and away from her targets.

Dragon Ball's punch sounds don't occur before their punches or kicks land. Dragon Ball also has a blatant relativistic statement for namek saga Goku, Gotenks cirlces the plaet multiple times in a short time frame and Buu is a threat to the universe. Those are all proper feats or statements. All Kanroji has is dodging lightning that isn't confirmed to be as fast as irl lightning in the series and your calc that you still can;t explain your reasoning for and two calc group memebers have disagreed with.

MHS isn't consistent with the verse since there's no proper feats on that level. What multiple backings? Zenitsu's statement that is equivalent to 'be as strong as an ox'? Kaigaku's questionable lightning and the calc done on it? The cross section of the fish isn't identical as we've seen some cut at the tail rather than the gills and some cut down the middle. Even then we don't see all the fish and we don't know how every single one was cut. Dargoo even said that the fish are so close together a very small amount of slashes coul've still hit them and he flat out disagreed that the cross sections were uniform.
 
Since it seems like the majority agree with this, it should probably be applied.
 
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