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Large Size and Lifting Strength

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GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
So we gonna separately mention LS for the legs of fictional large sized bodies ??
Especially when specific body part strengths aren't eveb differentiable in fictiom for supernaturally strong characters.
Click to expand...
HammerStrikes219 said:
It is true that the Legs may or may not necessarily have stronger LS than the arms, but last I checked Jump involved using the legs to propel itself into the air and when I mean that, I do mean that.
Otherwise, jumping from the arms doesn’t sound feasible enough as the legs in the case of a human is what being needed to jump upwards.
Click to expand...
Does the Armorchompy jump good model apply? Like instead of a human-sized monster it is a giant monster - of course its weight known and its jumping height known.

Or we should remove the Armorchompy jump good model altogether?
 
Jasonsith said:
Does the Armorchompy jump good model apply? Like instead of a human-sized monster it is a giant monster - of course its weight known and its jumping height known.

Or we should remove the Armorchompy jump good model altogether
Click to expand...
After thinking about it, we can probably accept it as LS as jumping does involve the entire body weight being lifted in the air, but as of now, I can not think a lot of examples except for perhaps Godzilla.
 
Jasonsith said:
Does the Armorchompy jump good model apply? Like instead of a human-sized monster it is a giant monster - of course its weight known and its jumping height known.

Or we should remove the Armorchompy jump good model altogether?
Click to expand...
bro
 
Jumping isn't quite the same thing, from what I'm aware back in track pre-covid. Jumpers don't train to have huge legs, they're actually trying to cut mass down more than everyone else including the distance runners. Someone like me who was a thrower would tend to have better squat/deadlift/legpress maxes than a jumper, yet I would definitely not be able to jump like they do.
 
Wokistan said:
Jumping isn't quite the same thing, from what I'm aware back in track pre-covid. Jumpers don't train to have huge legs, they're actually trying to cut mass down more than everyone else including the distance runners. Someone like me who was a thrower would tend to have better squat/deadlift/legpress maxes than a jumper, yet I would definitely not be able to jump like they do.
Click to expand...
So do I have to omit Class 5 from Indoraptor’s lifting strength?
 
Wokistan said:
Jumping isn't quite the same thing, from what I'm aware back in track pre-covid. Jumpers don't train to have huge legs, they're actually trying to cut mass down more than everyone else including the distance runners. Someone like me who was a thrower would tend to have better squat/deadlift/legpress maxes than a jumper, yet I would definitely not be able to jump like they do.
Click to expand...
Ong.ruixiang said:
So do I have to omit Class 5 from Indoraptor’s lifting strength?
Click to expand...
Maybe @Wokistan needs to talk with @Armorchompy as I believe Armor has a lot to talk about on his jump good model.
 
Brother, you lost that debate, stop bringing it up on every occasion, this is the definition of derailing and inciting.
 
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Wokistan said:
Jumping isn't quite the same thing, from what I'm aware back in track pre-covid. Jumpers don't train to have huge legs, they're actually trying to cut mass down more than everyone else including the distance runners. Someone like me who was a thrower would tend to have better squat/deadlift/legpress maxes than a jumper, yet I would definitely not be able to jump like they do.
Click to expand...
This is for real life athletes sure. But do fictional characters sort of equate pulling strength, pushing strength, squeezing strength and leg pressing strength as one lifting strength?
And given giant monsters are more times than not jumping around and slamming other monsters at around their sizes (esp. those suit actor in rubber suis and foam armor), they are essentially behaving as if they are scaled up suit actors themselves. Therefore stats for a scaled up normal human should actually apply to giant monsters as well. Just... This coincides with the jump good model where monsters can lift themselves above ground level by jumping.

And I am always on topic: on the topic of how LS can be derived from giant characters by virtue of size alone.

Wokistan is the one bringing up the challenge for whether a model which is used by other feats by other characters already should be applicable to giant characters. Whose arguments may have a chain effect on the applicability of a model currently used.
 
Wokistan said:
Jumping isn't quite the same thing, from what I'm aware back in track pre-covid. Jumpers don't train to have huge legs, they're actually trying to cut mass down more than everyone else including the distance runners. Someone like me who was a thrower would tend to have better squat/deadlift/legpress maxes than a jumper, yet I would definitely not be able to jump like they do.
Click to expand...
For the record while this is true it doesn't mean strength isn't needed to jump, it just means that obviously if you're lighter you need less strength to jump high enough. I feel like if someone were to calculate the "LS" of someone who's trained their leg strength more it might end up higher than that of one performed by a jumper since weight is part of the formula, or at least it would if they had similar training in the subject. And obviously a 10000 ton monster isn't exactly gonna focus on slimming down.
 
DontTalkDT said:
If the character demonstrates doing something like a push up (i.e. pushing much of its weight up with just its hands) or flying by wings (I.e. non-supernatural means of lifting their weight into the air) then that's a callable lifting strength feat. However, those things should actually need to happen. Just being large and moving around fast doesn't prove this stuff.
Click to expand...
Antvasima said:
Okay. Thank you for the evaluations.

Would you be willing to adjust our Lifting Strength page explanations regarding these issues, so what you described above is properly clarified there please?
Click to expand...
@DontTalkDT

I would still appreciate your help with this.
 
I assume this is more about amending the page of large size calculations than the page of lifting strength.

vsbattles.fandom.com

Large Size Calculations

In fiction, there are many characters of Large Size. When it comes to tiering them their size alone can be an indicator of their statistics. This page explains which statistics can and can't be calculated from size alone. The physical attack potency, and with it the durability, can be estimated...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Draft change should turn from

Lifting Strength should not be calculated from size. While characters have to lift more bodyweight, lifting strength is the weight they can lift in addition to that. There is no way of telling how much more that is.

To

Lifting Strength could be calculated from size with clearly defined assumptions. While characters have to lift more bodyweight, lifting strength is the weight they can lift in addition to that. Given giant characters more times than not have to push around other giant characters at around their same sizes, it is only reasonable these characters can lift an extra weight equal to their own weight on top of their own weights. Therefore, if the character demonstrates doing something like a push up (i.e. pushing much of its weight up with just its hands), wrestling with other monsters at around the same size, or flying by wings (or any non-supernatural means of lifting their weight into the air) then that should be an acceptable lifting strength feat.

If there are evidence the reference figures these giant characters scale up from can lift way more than their own weight (e.g. a centipede can lift up to 15 times its own weight), such consideration should be taken into account.

I am making this change during weekend if no one objects and no one applies such change.
 
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I thought that we would use something like this:
DontTalkDT said:
If the character demonstrates doing something like a push up (i.e. pushing much of its weight up with just its hands) or flying by wings (I.e. non-supernatural means of lifting their weight into the air) then that's a callable lifting strength feat. However, those things should actually need to happen. Just being large and moving around fast doesn't prove this stuff.
Click to expand...
 
Some notes:
Jasonsith said:
Given giant characters more times than not have to push around other giant characters at around their same sizes, it is only reasonable these characters can lift an extra weight equal to their own weight on top of their own weights.
Click to expand...
This doesn't need to be there, and is misleading imo. The agreement is that we don't make assumptions, feats are what's needed to scale.
Jasonsith said:
Therefore, if the character demonstrates doing something like a push up (i.e. pushing much of its weight up with just its hands), wrestling with other monsters at around the same size, or flying by wings (or any non-supernatural means of lifting their weight into the air) then that should be an acceptable lifting strength feat.
Click to expand...
I feel "if" should be emphasized here, to ensure people understand.
Jasonsith said:
If there are evidence the reference figures these giant characters scale up from can lift way more than their own weight (e.g. a centipede can lift up to 15 times its own weight), such consideration should be taken into account.
Click to expand...
I don't believe this was accepted either.
 
Jasonsith said:
Revised my wording.
Click to expand...
Thank you. It looks better now, but preferably needs to be revised a bit for better word flow. There are several repetitions of the word "weight" in the same sentence, for example.
Jasonsith said:
What about a monster who can use telekinesis to fly? (Well that should qualify as a lifting strength with telekinesis right?)
Click to expand...
Probably, yes, if it is able to apply the telekinesis to other objects as well.
 
KieranH10 said:
Some notes:

This doesn't need to be there, and is misleading imo. The agreement is that we don't make assumptions, feats are what's needed to scale.
Click to expand...
What assumptions? Pushing around giants of comparable size should absolutely count as a lifting strength feat.
 
The sentence makes it sound as if we're saying "If character is big, then we can assume that they're able to push others of their size" when in reality we would need a feat to allow that.
 
Jasonsith said:
I assume this is more about amending the page of large size calculations than the page of lifting strength.

vsbattles.fandom.com

Large Size Calculations

In fiction, there are many characters of Large Size. When it comes to tiering them their size alone can be an indicator of their statistics. This page explains which statistics can and can't be calculated from size alone. The physical attack potency, and with it the durability, can be estimated...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Draft change should turn from

Lifting Strength should not be calculated from size. While characters have to lift more bodyweight, lifting strength is the weight they can lift in addition to that. There is no way of telling how much more that is.

To

Lifting Strength could be calculated from size with clearly defined assumptions. While characters have to lift more bodyweight, lifting strength is the weight they can lift in addition to that. Given giant characters more times than not have to push around other giant characters at around their same sizes, it is only reasonable these characters can lift an extra weight equal to their own weight on top of their own weights. Therefore, if the character demonstrates doing something like a push up (i.e. pushing much of its weight up with just its hands), wrestling with other monsters at around the same size, or flying by wings (or any non-supernatural means of lifting their weight into the air) then that should be an acceptable lifting strength feat.

If there are evidence the reference figures these giant characters scale up from can lift way more than their own weight (e.g. a centipede can lift up to 15 times its own weight), such consideration should be taken into account.

I am making this change during weekend if no one objects and no one applies such change.
Click to expand...
Oh no my home desktop broke down and I am not allowed to use my work laptop to do private things...

But never mind I will redraft:

"Lifting Strength could be calculated from size with clearly defined assumptions. While characters have to lift more bodyweight, lifting strength is the weight they can lift in addition to that. Given giant characters more times than not have to push around other giant characters at around their same sizes, it is only reasonable these characters can lift an extra weight equal to their own weight on top of their own weights. Meanwhile, like any other characters, a lifting strength level has to be shown or at least reasonably deduced to be considered valid. Therefore, the character should demonstrate itself to be capable of doing something like a push up (i.e. pushing much of its weight up with just its hands), wrestling with other monsters at around the same size, or flying by wings (or any non-supernatural means of lifting their weight into the air) or other acceptable lifting strength feat to have the lifting strength tiered to the yield of such feat.

If there are evidence the reference figures these giant characters scale up from can lift way more than their own weight (e.g. a centipede can lift up to 15 times its own weight), such consideration should be taken into account."






I am making this change during weekend if no one objects and no one applies such change.
 
I am sorry to hear about your computer. I hope that you had your important information backed up.

Anyway, thank you for helping out. However, the draft text needs to be improved for better language structure/flow before it can be applied to an official instructions page. Help in this regard would be appreciated.
 
Jasonsith said:
Oh no my home desktop broke down and I am not allowed to use my work laptop to do private things...

But never mind I will redraft:

"Lifting Strength could be calculated from size with clearly defined assumptions. While characters have to lift more bodyweight, lifting strength is the weight they can lift in addition to that. Given giant characters more times than not have to push around other giant characters at around their same sizes, it is only reasonable these characters can lift an extra weight equal to their own weight on top of their own weights. Meanwhile, like any other characters, a lifting strength level has to be shown or at least reasonably deduced to be considered valid. Therefore, the character should demonstrate itself to be capable of doing something like a push up (i.e. pushing much of its weight up with just its hands), wrestling with other monsters at around the same size, or flying by wings (or any non-supernatural means of lifting their weight into the air) or other acceptable lifting strength feat to have the lifting strength tiered to the yield of such feat.

If there are evidence the reference figures these giant characters scale up from can lift way more than their own weight (e.g. a centipede can lift up to 15 times its own weight), such consideration should be taken into account."

I am making this change during weekend if no one objects and no one applies such change.
Click to expand...
@DontTalkDT

Do you have the time to take a look at rewording this in an appropriate manner, or are you too busy?
 
Is somebody experienced willing to improve on the wording in Jason's draft text above?
 
Mr._Bambu said:
The question this thread poses is simple: do we scale large sized characters to their own weight? It has been brought up increasingly of late, and I believe it warrants discussion.

For my own opinion: I believe they should scale, with some requirements. For example, a character unable to move shouldn't be assumed able to support their own weight. For another, I believe this should only be done in the void of other lifting strength feats. If we do come to the conclusion that large sized characters should scale to their mass, we must:
  • Establish what, if any, requirements must be had to qualify
  • Alter our Large Size and Lifting Strength pages accordingly, as well as any others that may be potentially impacted
  • Adjust profiles that would benefit from this change
So, please, discuss.
Click to expand...
They should, because... well, if they can move around, that means they're moving their weight, doesn't it?
 
Jasonsith said:
Oh no my home desktop broke down and I am not allowed to use my work laptop to do private things...

But never mind I will redraft:

"Lifting Strength could be calculated from size with clearly defined assumptions. While characters have to lift more bodyweight, lifting strength is the weight they can lift in addition to that. Given giant characters more times than not have to push around other giant characters at around their same sizes, it is only reasonable these characters can lift an extra weight equal to their own weight on top of their own weights. Meanwhile, like any other characters, a lifting strength level has to be shown or at least reasonably deduced to be considered valid. Therefore, the character should demonstrate itself to be capable of doing something like a push up (i.e. pushing much of its weight up with just its hands), wrestling with other monsters at around the same size, or flying by wings (or any non-supernatural means of lifting their weight into the air) or other acceptable lifting strength feat to have the lifting strength tiered to the yield of such feat.

If there are evidence the reference figures these giant characters scale up from can lift way more than their own weight (e.g. a centipede can lift up to 15 times its own weight), such consideration should be taken into account."
Click to expand...
Antvasima said:
I am sorry to hear about your computer. I hope that you had your important information backed up.

Anyway, thank you for helping out. However, the draft text needs to be improved for better language structure/flow before it can be applied to an official instructions page. Help in this regard would be appreciated.
Click to expand...
Antvasima said:
@DontTalkDT

Do you have the time to take a look at rewording this in an appropriate manner, or are you too busy?
Click to expand...
Antvasima said:
Is somebody experienced willing to improve on the wording in Jason's draft text above?
Click to expand...
Antvasima said:
@DontTalkDT

Would you be willing to help us out here please? We seem to be stuck and not going anywhere.
Click to expand...
@DontTalkDT
 
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