Li Shuwen stats

[Yamatohime]

I created Li Shuwen's profile but got into bit of trouble because of his AP and Durability. I assumed that his Martial Arts skill (A+++) is added to his rankless Noble Phantasm which are essentialy the top techniques of his Bajiquan style. But it can be otherwise so... What others think?

 

[Promestein]

"At least 7-C, likely higher", as I said before, is probably the best choice, I think.

 

[Reppuzan]

I'm just a little apprehensive about the "likely Island level" rating with his martial arts rating since it implies that his physical blows are stronger than a fully charged Excalibur... which is quite frankly ridiculous.

 

[Yamatohime]

Li Shuwen is all around ridiculous. He is modern day Heroic Spirit (who didn't sell his soul to Alaya unlike someone we all know) with crazy skill level... Martial Arts (A+++)... Or outright crazy skill like Sphere Boundary.

Add here is that Nasuverse Martial Arts are not simple kicking some asses without weapon. It's actualy an immitation of magecraft natural to divine spirits.


Breathing and Walking (Õæ╝ÕÉ©Òâ╗µ¡®µ│ò, Kokyü Hohō?) is a key concept in Magecraft and Martial Arts. Though mainly affects one's physical fitness, it also plays a role in the strength of nature interference. The absorption of outer energy (breath of life) to connect your inner world to the outer world. The acts of inspiring, expiring and everything in between are part of a process that allows one to take in or release the gods. The Magi use incanted spells to cause a specific phenomenon to occur, but those whose breathing, movement, body and very existence can cause nature interference are beyond that. An example would be the Shinto practice of banishing evil spirits and other unnatural forces by just clapping. However, this particular skill is something that takes a lifetime to learn. Not valued by Western magi, but among the teachings of the east, the techniques of breathing and walking are high-level secrets that can't just be imitated or easily learned. Therefore, Eastern schools always search for at least one individual capable of mastering them in a generation.
Sometimes however, there are those who are simply born with the "proper way of breathing and walking". As a result, their own body acts as one pure, natural Circuit. Those humans can reproduce greater mysteries than the magi without knowing anything about Thaumaturgy. When found while still on their childhood, they are treated as holy children or prodigies and usually take in by those who follow the supernatural path. Still, there are cases of those who grow up without learning about their true nature.

 

[Gemmysaur]

I'm a bit iffy with the whole Island Level fisticuffs. Where did that come from? Did he have some sort of explicit multiplier to raise him above the standard Town Level servant stat?

If none, maybe we could leave it as "Likely Higher".

 

[Yamatohime]

His Martial Arts are multiplier but very vague. It boosts attack power via Prana but not similar to Prana Burst or Reinforcement magecraft (since a little Prana needed to power it). All is known about Chinese Martial Arts is that is an immitation of True Breathing and Walking. Marble Phantasm is the highest example of B&W.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Yeah, the Island Level stats looks iffy. Perhaps like Gemmy said it could be changed to "Likely Higher"?

 

[Yamatohime]

Well, actualy I more concerned about his durability since his No Second Strike / God Spear - No Second Strike just ignore conventional durability (told a long tale that he can kill with light touch).

 

[Gemmysaur]

BnW sounds awfully like Naruto's Sage Mode now that I read about it.

Regardless, both are of concern methinks. You said its a power amp, but at the same time ignores conventional durability.

If its a stat multiplier, let's probably go with "Likely Higher".

If it ignores conventional durability, we state so in his AP that he has a haxx technique that does so.

Regarding durability, what is the best thing he tanked with it? If none quantifiable, we probably should still go with "Likely Higher".

 

[Yamatohime]

He has two techniques: No Second Strike (Skill over Brute Force) and Fierce Tiger (Brute Force over Skill). The first blast enemy internal organs and distrupt mana circulation. The second is just series of brute force attacks, skillful but still brute force.

Additonaly his Sphere Boundary was developed from his Martial Arts (basicaly it shows how close he is to BnW).

In-game wise the best he managed to survive is UBW. But it's a game mechanics probably.

 

[Gemmysaur]

What I got from your post are;

• No Second Strike : Ignores conventional durability

• Town Level (I assume he is roughly on par with the other servants at base), Likely higher with Fierce Tiger

• Sphere Boundary doesn't tell much

• Surviving UBW, I'd peg it as "Atleast City Level" though since Caladbolg will likely be flying in there, maybe "Atleast City Level+" or "Atleast Large City Level"? UBW is very much variable instead of the flat base damage of flying Gae Bolg so its damage is something I can't really comment on.

 

[Yamatohime]

• Surviving UBW, I'd peg it as "Atleast City Level" though since Caladbolg will likely be flying in there, maybe "Atleast City Level+" or "Atleast Large City Level"? UBW is very much variable instead of the flat base damage of flying Gae Bolg so its damage is something I can't really comment on.

It has even Excalibur that can be probably used as Broken Phantasm but I doubt that Archer can hit Li Shuwen with majority of weapons from UBW. And like I said it was more like game mechanics... Kind of... Since you need to kill this one Servant twice...

 

[Gemmysaur]

Can Archer even use Excaliblast? Can he even use Excalibur itself? Or will he just shoot it as a missile?

So if Li can deflect and evade the weapons in UBW, then his durability doesn't scale all that high.

 

[Yamatohime]

Moon Cell allow to create inferior Excalibur (and Archer can Excaliblast with it) but since its disappear after one strike it's probably Broken Phantasmed (or just game mechanics - which is probalby more plausible).

Yeah, Li has superior speed and could probably deflect projectiles (as long as they do not explode right into his face like Caladbolg II usualy do). He is Martial Artist of the highest degree after all.

P.S.: I believe that finding his durability can be led to his AP, since he use Martial Arts both for offense and defence.

 

[Reppuzan]

I think City level is more appropriate than anything, considering the fact that Nero and Archer can clash with Gawain (who is Arthur's peer) in close combat. Going straight to Island level is rather ridiculous when the fact that the strongest Holy Sword tops out at Small Island level and Berserker tops out at Mountain level at the very most via author statements with his A+ strength, and Li Shuwen is magnitudes lower.

 

[Yamatohime]

So casual Town, City with Tiger and probably higher since we do not know exact mechanism between his MA and NP? What about durability?

 

[Reppuzan]

Town level with regular strikes, and At least Small City level with Fierce Tiger (considering the fact that he showed the traits of C Rank or B Rank Mad Enhancement at the time he used it).

I'd say At least Town level durability via scaling from Archer and Nero.

 

[Yamatohime]

I will try to look for discussion where someone suggested that MA rank is just replacement for strenght stat. Maybe there was more info...

 

[Reppuzan]

Town level with regular strikes, and At least Small City level with Fierce Tiger (considering the fact that he showed the traits of C Rank or B Rank Mad Enhancement at the time he used it).

I'd say At least Town level durability via scaling from Archer and Nero.

These are the most reasonable in my eyes.

 

[Yamatohime]

Li Shuwen didn't have ME at all. It's just his Master got Berserker's CS. Because his Matrix doesn't have this skill even when he turns Berserker.

Additionaly, since we are talking about his stats I want to ask about his abilities. Are these ones OK?

Superhuman strength, speed, durability and agility, Martial Arts (Master of Masters), Durability Negation (with No Second Strike), Invisibility (with Sphere Boundary), Enhanced Awareness of Surroundings (with Sphere Boundary), partial Mind Manipulation Resistance (with Sphere Boundary), some degree of Conceptual Manipulation Resistance (managed to avoid erasure).

 

[Reppuzan]

Fair enough then.

The abilities look fine (though I think the Martial Arts could be left as Martial Arts Master with his Master of Masters title being noted as part of his intelligence rating) and the circumstances of his Durability Negation should be noted (he uses a pulse of ki to shut down his opponent's organs, disrupt the flow of life energy in their body, and stop the heart instantly).

 

[Yamatohime]

Stats updated.

 

[Yamatohime]

I started to wonder if Li Shuwen's Invisibility is actualy intangibility (since under his inivisibility he can't be detected even by enhenced senses)?

 

[Reppuzan]

It's very good invisibility, but I doubt it's intangibility since that would imply that he is able to hit targets despite being intangible, which goes against the very concept of a Servant's Spirit Form.

 

[Yamatohime]

Well, I mean as long as he do not take offensive action he is...

a practitioner of the Sphere Boundary remains wholly indiscernible even on physical contact.

 

[Reppuzan]

I would like to present a similar case:

This girl's power allows her to erase herself from the perceptions of everyone around her (similarly to Sphere Boundary), making it difficult to track her. Someone will notice if she bumped into them, but otherwise she's unperceptible unless she other runs out of stamina or if they use cameras, which bypass the ability due to being mechanical in nature instead of relying on the human brain or senses.

 

[LazyHunter]

Reading the ability's description, to me that means that he's so good at erasing his presence by becoming one with the environment/universe, that as long as he's not preparing to attack or attacking you will not notice him even if you're right next to him touching him. This could probably be because you won't feel as if you are touching anything but air, you can't perceive him with your physical senses.

 

[Yamatohime]

I would like to present a similar case:
This girl's power allows her to erase herself from the perceptions of everyone around her (similarly to Sphere Boundary), making it difficult to track her. Someone will notice if she bumped into them, but otherwise she's unperceptible unless she other runs out of stamina or if they use cameras, which bypass the ability due to being mechanical in nature instead of relying on the human brain or senses.

Well, he can't be detected even by mechanical means - perfect invisilbility except for some minor weaknesses.

Reading the ability's description, to me that means that he's so good at erasing his presence by becoming one with the environment/universe, that as long as he's not preparing to attack or attacking you will not notice him even if you're right next to him touching him. This could probably be because you won't feel as if you are touching anything but air, you can't perceive him with your physical senses.

It's is even hinted that Clairvoyance is useless as long as he do not take offensive.

 

[Reppuzan]

Since he can still strike while being stealthed, I still find it highly doubtful that it's intangibility, since logically his fist would pass right through them.

 

[Yamatohime]

Since he can still strike while being stealthed, I still find it highly doubtful that it's intangibility, since logically his fist would pass right through them.

Hm, magic attacks can hurt ghosts and other intagibility users in Nasuverse. Some even specialized versus such beings like Exorcism Ritual. Maybe he induce Qi in his attacks - it should partialy remove his Qi cloak after all.

 

[Reppuzan]

But Qi is Chinese Od, logically coming out of intangibility for even a brief moment to charge his fist with Od for the killing blow will alert a Servant. It might not be that much, but it wouldn't be "imperceptible"

 

[Yamatohime]

Doesn't SB work like this? I mean he is undetectable by five senses and even enhanced senses while doing anything except offensive. When he is going offensive he can't be detected by five senses but can be detected by Instinct, Fake Eye of the Mind and other danger-sense or Clairvoyance and alike?

 

[LazyHunter]

Well, yeah, the skill mentions that unlike other types of invisibility Li Shuwen is practically undetectable when not attacking. But not being detected if you are touched doesn't mean you are intangible, just like Miho (the character Reppuzan mentioned), is not invisible despite humans not being able to see her or perceive her.

Also, looking at the Type Moon wiki it seems part of the line talking about what happens when he attacks is missing. Shouldn't it be "If the user initiates an attack or poises for an offensive the elimination of presence drops in efficiency -- even though invisibility is still effectively maintained."?

 

[Yamatohime]

So it's just crazy level of presence erasure, isn't it?

Also, looking at the Type Moon wiki it seems part of the line talking about what happens when he attacks is missing. Shouldn't it be "If the user initiates an attack or poises for an offensive the elimination of presence drops in efficiency -- even though invisibility is still effectively maintained."?

Wow, truly is... =_=

 

[LazyHunter]

Yeah, Li Shuwen erases his presence so well that to natural and supernatural senses it looks like there's nothing there, but he is totally there, waiting for the right moment to strike. That + OHKO, funny that a martial artist seems to be one of the better Assassins.

 

[Reppuzan]

I mean, it's not totally farfetched, considering the fact that a reinforced Kuzuki stomped Saber in their first encounter.

 

[Yamatohime]

Ok, so Almost Perfect Invisibility was right one.

Another question that got my attention was... Can Li Shuwen actualy hit some types of intagibility users, like ghosts or Servants in Spiritual Forms?

I mean, it's not totally farfetched, considering the fact that a reinforced Kuzuki stomped Saber in their first encounter.

Doesn't Kuzuki possesed some degree of Breathing and Walking and was Martial Artist at least of A degree?

 

[Reppuzan]

I'm not sure, he hasn't demonstrated the ability to do so, but Od charged fists might do the trick (however, it should be noted that even Servants with Noble Phantasms can't hit other Servants in Spirit Form with few exceptions). I've also been meaning to ask this about Sakura Saber's Three-Stage Thrust, which is described as "surpassing the simple destruction of physical things"

Yeah, Kuzuki has Breathing and Walking along with his unusual Martial Arts that would even allow him to beat Bazett in hand-to-hand combat.

 

[Yamatohime]

Chinese legends depict Martial Artist to be able fight ghost and alike but Nasuverse never showed examples of such proficiency. That's why question rised.

There are actually two problems in one: 1 - can Li Shuwen percieve intangibility user (he doesn't have any types of Mystic Eyes), 2 - does his Qi fists posses enough mystery to inflict damage on such beings.

 

[Reppuzan]

I'm afraid I'm not very familiar with Chinese legends, so I can't really say anything to that.

Intangibility users are not necessarily invisible. For example, Shadowcat is famous for her ability to phase through solid matter but is still wholly visible. Spirits are another matter entirely.

I'm not sure if Mystery alone is enough to hit an intangible being/spirit since no Servant has shown the ability to hit another Servant while in their Spirit Form.