Local Bug Man Fights Some Spartans From Halo and Then Explodes (Oryx Revisions)

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Note: I don't expect this to be resolved until later. I'm just putting it out there now so I can get the general ideas down.

I have some major issues with Oryx's profile. A lot of it is lacking context or proper justification, which will be needed if a lot of stuff isn't to be changed or removed. I'll make a list telling if something is just straight up wrong or if it could be right but needs to be clarified.

Immortality: Type 2 is redundant, 7 and 8 aren't accurate, and 9 only applies to his material self. If his true self dies, that's it.

Regenerationn: Mid-Godly is completely false. Oryx's material form has Low-Godly based on his true essence existing in his Throne World, but it is not like he can come back immediately. His throne world self does not have Low-Godly regen (since said regen would be based on...himself), and if he dies there, he's gone. He only survives this by any means due to a fraction of his essence being connected to a weapon you can get.

Law Manipulation and Conceptual Manipulation: Only his true self has this in his throne world. His material self does not. It may also be more safe to just lump both under "Law Manipulation", which is more of what I remember him doing. Could be wrong on that last part, though.

Acausality: Again, pretty sure this only applies to his true self.

Death Manipulation: His death manipulation does not kill concepts or negate mid-godly. I have no idea where this is from.

Power Nullification: I don't remember his material self doing this, but I could be wrong. Help with this one would be appreciated.

Reactive Evolution and Reactive Power Level: Same as above. Don't remember this being showcased, but it could have been.

Nigh-Omnipresence: Never demonstrated, at all. He can be fought, dodged, and damaged normally. He's not some sort of nigh-omnipresent entity.

Abstract Existence: Only applies to his true self.

Summoning and Statistics Reduction: Accurate, but for some reason he has them listed twice.

Gravity Manipulation: Don't remember this, but could be wrong.

Pocket Reality Manipulation: Should apply only to his true self.

Non-Corporeal: Applies only to his true self. His material projection is...well, material.

Resistance Negation: I don't really know what this one is supposed to mean in context, as there's not really anything further than this.

Resistance to Reality Warping, Conceptual Manipulation, and Law Manipulation: One of the reasons given for these is that Oryx killed Akka. However, he did not resist anything, in this scenario. He killed Akka specifically because Sword Logic allowed him to do so, which is more an example of Oryx's own Law Manipulation. Oryx withstanding the power of his daughters is more an example of his Sword Logic > theirs, which would more likely just be resistance to Law Manipultion via countering it with his own.

Resistance to Existence Erasure: I don't recall him ever displaying this.

Resistance to Statistics Reduction: Or this.

Resistance to Power Nullification: Or this, either. On top of that, the reasons given are that he wasn't powernulled by the Guardians, who powernulled Atheon. I'm pretty sure that isn't remotely what happened, as Atheon was still perfectly capable of using its time powers during the battle. It seems that at best, one could argue that Oryx could use Sword Logic in his throne world to make himself resist powernull, but that would fall under his Law Manipulation.

Resistance to Light Manipulation: I'm assuming this refers to "The Light" in Destiny, in which case this is inaccurate, as the Light is what killed Oryx in his own realm.

Resistance to Void Manipulation: Also don't remember this, but I may be wrong.

Resistance to Absorption: Also don't remember this.

Resistance to Attack Reflection: I don't think this is a thing.

Resistance to Mind Manipulation: This is probably correct, but I'd need to be shown where.

Resistance to Spatial Manipulation and Time Manipulation: Pretty sure this is only demonstrated by his true self.

Resistance to Poison Manipulation: Again, listed twice.

Resistance to Nanotechnology: ...the hell?

Resistance to Matter Manipulation: Would need to see where this is demonstrated, as well. I'm pretty sure only his true self has it, and it would be "Immunity to Matter Manipulation", as he isn't made of matter.

Resistance to Vector Manipulation: Almost certain he never showed this.

Resistance to Probability Manipulation: Or this.


Now beyond powers, I'd also like to talk about his tier and speed.

Tier: His material form is mostly fine, but I'm pretty sure that without calcs, his "At least 5-B" should be "At least 5-C/Low 5-B". His true form is a bigger problem. He's listed as "At least Low 2-C" for creating his throne world, which has its own space-time and laws. The big issue here is that throne worlds are never shown to be universal in size. They're even referred to as "cyst universes", which likely described their relation in connection to the normal universe. For instance, this is Crota's throne world; a massive castle structure filled with mostly nothing beyond that, from what we can see. Oryx's throne world is merged with the Dreadnaught, which is his ship. I don't know what tier Oryx's true self should be, but Low 2-C is pushing it with the lack of evidence we have.

Speed: Material Oryx is listed as "Immeasurable" for being superior to the Vex, who move freely beyond linear time. Firstly, this is a part of the Vex's nature and does not apply to Oryx. Secondly, both Oryx and the Vex move at normal speeds when actually in the material universe, and can be fought and killed by beings moving at normal speeds. Nigh-Omnipresent is bunk for similar reasons. I don't think his true self is fully Omnipresent in his realm, either. Nigh-Omnipresent perhaps, but he did not show full Omnipresence when he was encountered there.


Like I said, some of these things I may simply not remember, but others are completely wrong and really have to go. Any help with this would be very much appreciated.

 

[Holyhotsauce]

His resistance to Law manip is because Akka, who could deny 'truths' (Laws) so they became false.

Akka tried to 'deny' the truth (law) that Oryx was stronger than him and couldn't.

Most of his resistances come from the fact that none of the Guardians gear can actually harm or affect him.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

His resistance to Law manip is because Akka, who could deny 'truths' (Laws) so they became false.
Akka tried to 'deny' the truth (law) that Oryx was stronger than him and couldn't.

Most of his resistances come from the fact that none of the Guardians gear can actually harm or affect him.

This is specifically because of Oryx's own Sword Logic, though. Which, as mentioned above, both only applies to his true form and is more an example of his own Law Manipulation being used as a counter, since he kills Akka due to Sword Logic (as well as the new powers he'd gained).

"none of the Guardians gear can actually harm or affect him"

They could, though. They're the ones who kill him. Unless you're referring to his true self, in which case most of this is irrelevant, since he's an abstract spirit and, as mentioned, most should be under his second key.

 

[Holyhotsauce]

His resistance to Law manip is because Akka, who could deny 'truths' (Laws) so they became false.
Akka tried to 'deny' the truth (law) that Oryx was stronger than him and couldn't.

Most of his resistances come from the fact that none of the Guardians gear can actually harm or affect him.

This is specifically because of Oryx's own Sword Logic, though. Which, as mentioned above, both only applies to his true form and is more an example of his own Law Manipulation being used as a counter, since he kills Akka due to Sword Logic (as well as the new powers he'd gained).
"none of the Guardians gear can actually harm or affect him"

They could, though. They're the ones who kill him. Unless you're referring to his true self, in which case most of this is irrelevant, since he's an abstract spirit and, as mentioned, most should be under his second key.

I was referring to his second key about the last bit yes.

Sword Logic isn't active tho, it's passive and it's on all the time.

Why wouldn't that be a resistance?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes, that's what I mean. It's part of his own Law Manipulation, which does grant resistance to Law Manipulation if he can override someone else's influence, but it should only apply to his true self.

Do you mean for his physical or true self? It's not resistance for his physical self because he's killed in combat with the Guardian. His true self is already abstract and not fully corporeal, so it's not like every attack of the Guardians is actually landing on him or able to directly affect him in the first place. It's not so much resistance as much as they can't actually hurt him conventionally (except after they detonate Light Ogres and he becomes vulnerable).

 

[Holyhotsauce]

Yes, that's what I mean. It's part of his own Law Manipulation, which does grant resistance to Law Manipulation if he can override someone else's influence, but it should only apply to his true self.
Do you mean for his physical or true self? It's not resistance for his physical self because he's killed in combat with the Guardian. His true self is already abstract and not fully corporeal, so it's not like every attack of the Guardians is actually landing on him or able to directly affect him in the first place. It's not so much resistance as much as they can't actually hurt him conventionally (except after they detonate Light Ogres and he becomes vulnerable).

Then we agree that resistance to Law Manip is for his true self only.

Resistance to most of the Guardian's abilities is because whenever you try and damage him with anything that isn't corrupted light 'Immune' pops up instead of a damage number (this would also only be for his true self).

About Type 9: Hive Gods can return from true deaths via people doing what their concepts embody. (Xivu is brought back through war because she is war, Savath├╗n is brought back through trickery because she is trickery, etc, etc. It's not combat applicable tho).

Also....isn't Atheon not bringing a bunch of his clones through time just PIS and not the Guardians Pnulling him?

Also #2, the Vex not curbstomping the Taken in VoG was because Atheon, Templar, Gorgons and Oracles were all dead at that point.

Also #3, isn't creating an entirely separate Space-Time with its own Laws Low 2-C regardless of size?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Agreed.

Again, not sure if that's actual resistance or just something that doesn't apply to him because he's an abstract being. Obviously a gun that has unnatural effects on matter, for instance, would not only have no effect, but not even really have the chance of doing anything to him, in the first place. Stuff like that seems superfluous due to it kind of being in his very nature already to not be hurt by such things. The stuff I'm questioning if he actually does resist is mainly stuff I don't recall him ever being hit by, such as flat out Existence Erasure.

I was under the impression that Oryx specifically wished to revive his sisters, and that it is something only he is capable of, as he was the source of the Hive's main power. I don't recall this being a natural thing, especially with how stressed it is that death in the ascendant realm is otherwise permanent, though I could be mistaken.

Atheon not clone spamming does reek of PIS, yes. The same way Panoptes was apparently able to delete the Guardian on a whim, but only resorts to this just before Osiris is able to show up and hold it off.

2: That makes sense. Basic Vex aren't as "seemingly unbeatable" as some of the leaders.

3: No. Daemon Princes (and any sufficiently powerful daemon) in 40k can all create daemon worlds in the Warp. Daemon worlds are self-contained universes, all with their own laws and space-time, shaped only by the will of the daemon who made it. We do not consider this a Low 2-C feat, or consider anyone who fights Daemon Princes in the Warp to be Low 2-C, as the these realms are often only planet-sized. It's just Tier 5 with Space-Time, Law, and Concept Manipulation.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Also #2, the Vex not curbstomping the Taken in VoG was because Atheon, Templar, Gorgons and Oracles were all dead at that point.

wouldn't that imply that, if they weren't already dead, that they wouldn't have either lost or been taken? even with the gorgons exist erase spamming and atheon clone spamming across time, that just gives oryx for forces to work with (more atheons to take and he'll probably have already at least tried to take the gorgons, and we have no reason to believe he couldn't just keep taking the atheons and gorgons as they come)

what i'm saying is that even with the full force of the VoG, the vex still have basically no real chance against the taken alone, and likel much less oryx himself (unless i'm missing something here)

also, isn't creating your own ST pocket dimension manip or something along those lines?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes, "Pocket Dimension Manipulation" is more accurate than rating the feat as Low 2-C, and inside said pocket dimension, his power skyrockets.

 

[Wokistan]

I'll respond to this a little later, let me compile stuff for a bit.


I also just realized that some of the powers got screwed up, his material form isn't supposed to be the exact same in terms of powers as his ascendant. That I'm in agreement with. Some of the other stuff however, I do not.

 

[Wokistan]

I'll provide quotes on request, but that may take a bit of time.

Regenerationn: As for 2, I'm not sure about that Regenerationn in general. Seems like it would be redundant for literally everyone who has it. It's fine to take off, but its a weird description. Oryx's oversoul would make him a lich, which is undead, type 8 based on the oversoul and TOM is explicit, and his sisters regenned from their own specific concept so it wouldn't make sense for him to not be able to. ofc the writers forgot but

Immortality: His sisters were described as having been sent even deeper into their throne worlds then before when Oryx killed them in their throne worlds, which would ordinarily be a final death as it results in the destruction of their oversoul. I'm fairly sure the implication with him staying in the ascendant realm was more that he was just going to gain power for a while, rather than an inability to leave especially considering how he and his siblings killed each other's corporeal forms all the time in their youth, and how shades and stuff were still being freely made. If material form better fits low godly+type 9, then you probably know that better than I do, but Ascendant should still have mid godly. Whether or not its useful in combat is another issue.


Law and Concept manip: You're half right here. He can take in both forms, and taking involves using those abilities. He's never used them independent of taking when material though. Perhaps clarification that material only has them with the ability to take. He's definitely done concept stuff, quotes avalible on request.

Acausality: Probably, but not totally sure given how he fought Quria outside of his throne. Likely safer to relegate it to ascendant.

Death Manipulation: His far weaker daughter kills concepts, ostensibly through the deathsongs. The deathsong also permakilled Xivu Arath's court, much to her annoyance, though using low godly as a low end should be a safe lower end if you don't like that.

Power Null: Presence of Oryx: With his presence alone, Oryx stops healing effects from working on his enemies. This includes passive regenerative abilities. Grasp of the King: Oryx drains light from a guardian, disabling all abilities. If he isn't staggered immediately, this triggers a second ability.

Those are when you fight him in regicide, ergo material. All taken also disable healing and double jumps at a certain range.

Reactive things: Mainly through Sword Logic. The most clear cut thing I can think of is when Xivu Arath blew up a moon on one of his projections, then he wouldn't die from moon busting anymore. His raid attacks also do more damage the more hurt he is, though that could be game mechanics.


Nigh Omnipresence: This is the temporal one. I feel like I remember something about him being omnipresent in his realm, but I'm less confident about that one compared to others. You can remove that and I'll just make a thread or something if I find it.


Abstract Existence: Yes.

Resistances: Minus the ability to take, while he was alive his sisters had his abilities, and they constantly fought. He'd have to have some degree of resistance to not just get destroyed by their stuff constantly. As for the taking abilities, he basically has to have resists to that stuff to even be able to use it. Being Taken is basically being contorted into the perfect shape by the darkness, and darkness corrupts everything it gets into really well. Oryx also got sealed in the darkness itself by his sisters before, and managed to get out somehow anyways. Considering how the Darkness agrees with the Hive's view of love and war being the same, and how he's described as fighting his way out, saying that the Darkness didn't try to do anything to him would be really weird. Some resists are from being > the vex and how he was to always win against the Vex until the Guardians killed him. Other powerful beings of light, like the traveler, also did not show up on the precogs of people like Callus, so it seems more like the Light just doesn't get precogged or predicted for some reason. Guardian light can't normally damage him in the raid, only those balls that also kill guardians outside of the aura of immortality. Resistances can be in degrees, he's immune to guardians himself but not the orbs that he makes. As for the ones that you state are only by true Oryx, that's cast into doubt by how Quria wasn't fought in the ascendant realm, and his siblings wouldn't be fighting against his true form with their projections, it'd be done with their own. Also, I don't really see the issue with really strong Law manip giving people resists. Regardless of the method, of which he still has normal ones, its still a way of resisting, and at the very least would function just about the same. For Quantum in particular, there's both the vex and how his sisters weapons should have similar properties to Willbreaker, which splits quarks and tears open reality. Even regular cleavers can do that part provided that their wielder is sufficiently strong.

Resistance Issues: You did catch some things that I did not though. Like the double abilities, which is due to a mix of computer issues and blue text on a blue background kinda glossing over in my mind when I read for a while. Sorry about that. Nanotech is from outbreak prime and other SIVA weapons, but as Rise of Iron is after TTK it's probably a game mechanics thing as he's already invincible minus the balls. If attack reflect resist isn't a thing, guess it isn't. Vector manip isn't supposed to be there, forgot that that's not offensively used by guardians. Same goes for probability manip.


AP: I've heard that blowing up moons is 5B due to how GBE works, could be wrong though. I've requested a calc that's probably higher than 5B anyways, so this may or may not remain relevant. Oryx's ascendant realm isn't just in the dreadnaught, he put a lot of it though, but I haven't found much concrete info on sizes and from the analogy you gave me with why not all Daemons are low 2C getting rid of that and replacing it with an "At least whatever, likely higher" seems good.

Speed: The issue is, taken stomping the VOG would indicate that material would have to be comparable, as the ascendant realm isn't the VOG. I'll try to find the quote for true omnipresence, nigh omnipresence is temporally.


I think I addressed all of what you typed in the OP. If I missed one of your points, feel free to bring it up. Also thanks for this, I kinda felt like I may have been exaggerating some things and actually having to defend the stuff I made is a good way of determining what should be there.

 

[Wokistan]

Also, I'd assume that we shouldn't do Oryx matches for now.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Immortality: 99% sure you mixed this and regen up, so I'll answer them like this. Type 2 is immortality without physical Regenerationn. As in, if someone chopped a character to pieces and said character was unable to die, yet did not have the ability to simply pull back together. Through the mere fact that he has Type 3, he does not have Type 2, as Type 2 is now entirely unnecessary. As for Type 8, I'm pretty sure the specific wording is "you have conjured me back with war" and "you have conjured me back with trickery", with importance placed on the fact that this is something Oryx did. I'm pretty sure the reason Oryx hasn't just been instantly brought back is due to the fact other Hive Gods, his sisters, do not really seem to want him back, while Oryx was explicitly said to be glad to have revived his sisters, as he loved them. This would more imply Hive Gods can be in some way revived from the death of their true selves, but that this is not done under their own power or will.

Regenerationn: See above. I do agree Oryx's material form should have Low-Godly, but it is not combat applicable. He could not just instantly recreate a new physical body once the Guardian slew his material form. Based on what I said above, I believe giving his true self mid-godly is extremely uncertain, and that it should likely have "Regenerationn (Unknown)".

Law + Concept Manipulation: His true form having these is fine, but why is Taking treated as Law + Concept Manip? Is it not just the act of throwing the being into another realm where the Darkness takes possession of it? I recall Taken being stated to have broken laws of physics, but not to have been altered on some conceptual level.

Acausality: Agreed.

Death Manipulation: "His far weaker daughter kills concepts" Where, though?

Power Null: Nullifying healing/regen seems good. Grasp of the King is more absorption though, as the abilities are disabled specifically because he's draining light from the guardians.

Reactive Things: Some degree of Reactive Evolution seems fine, then. Reactive power level seems more like game mechanics/not true reactive power level, though.

Nigh Omnipresence: Alright, I will do so when we wrap this up.

Abstract Existence: Double yes.

Resistances: Yes, resistances come in degrees. That's part of the point. Without anything being clarified, it's extremely confusing to what degree he resists these things. I agree we should remove resistances to nanotech, attack reflection, vector manipulation, and probability manipulation. Below are a few things I still think we need to clarify.

• Resistance to Reality Warping: No real degree hinted at or specified, and being one of our only Destiny pages, there's no way to currently gauge what this means in a fight. This should receive clarification.

• Resistance to Existence Erasure: Like I said before, I don't believe he ever displayed this.

• Resistance to Power Nullification: I also don't think this was displayed by either his material or true form.

• Resistance to Absorption: I don't believe anything ever tried to absorb him.

• Resistance to Mind Manipulation: I feel this might be true, but I still need to know where it actually comes from.

AP: No, overwhelming the GBE of the moon is Moon level. Overwhelming the GBE of Earth is close to base Planet level, and that is significantly larger than our moon. Moonbusting can often be above moon level due to the sheer size and speed of the explosion, but a calculation is needed. Otherwise, it is Moon level/sometimes Small Planet level if significantly stronger/done to multiple moons. For his Ascendant self, I guess we should just go with "At least [material form's tier], likely higher".

Speed: The issue is that the Vex do not have Immeasurable speed in the Vault of Glass, either. Their combat speed is never Immeasurable. Every time we see them in combat, they are always able to be fought by opponents with normal speeds. If you find quotes for his true self, that would also be useful.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Also, I'd assume that we shouldn't do Oryx matches for now.

Once we get this fixed, he's good to go.

 

[Wokistan]

Immortality: (yeah these were reversed) Ok, thanks for the clarification on type 2 then. I'd think that Oryx not being back, for reasons that aren't just "The writers forgot" is due to how since he made TOM a thing, he doesn't really need that yet, as well as how both his sisters aren't exactly in the system anymore. Also, the Worm gods tell the proto hive trio this:

Take into your bodies our children, our newborn larvae. From them you shall obtain eternal life. From them you shall gain power over your own fragile flesh: the power to make of it as you will. And should you find an imperfection in the world, an injustice or an inconvenience — you will have the power to repair it. Let no mere law bind you. We ask one thing in exchange, oh Princes. You must obey your nature forever. In your immortality, Aurash, you may never cease to explore and inquire, for the sake of your children. In your immortality, Xi Ro, you may never cease to test your strength. In your immortality, Sathona, you may never abandon cunning.

Also, the revivals don't seem as intentional from what I can tell. Xivu Arath rises from the corpses of the race that Oryx just exterminated, and Savathun shows up because Oryx was really cunning. It's stated that he was happy with that outcome after the fact, which doesn't really imply that he was trying to rez them so much as something of his power acting so much on their concept empowered them enough to return.

Oryx made war on the Ecumene for a hundred years. At the end of those hundred years he killed the Ecumene Council on the Fractal Wreath, and from their blood rose Xivu Arath, saying, "I am war, and you have conjured me back with war." Oryx was glad, for he loved Xivu Arath. The Ecumene wailed in grief. Then Oryx and Xivu Arath made war on the Ecumene for forty years. At the end of those forty years Oryx said to the Dakaua Nest, listen, I am jealous of my sibling Xivu Arath, help me kill her. And in desperation they agreed. But he drove the Dakaua Nest into a trap, and they were made extinct. From their ashes rose cunning Savath├╗n, saying, "I am trickery, and you have conjured me back with trickery." Oryx was glad, for he loved Savath├╗n. The Ecumene fled into the void.

While they are pretty much stuck in the throne far more permenantly than they usually would be, their opponent could still accidentally revive them depending on their character, especially with the incredibly broad concepts of understanding and curiosity being the Geas of Oryx. Type 6 would be more likely to come into effect though. Type 9 goes on his material and not his ascendant.


Regenerationn: I mean, Oryx spawns a ton of Echoes after regicide. Unlike Crota, who had to be summoned, Oryx seems to be able to project his will into the material world just fine. It seems that Oryx more doesn't want to, since he already lost to a guardian, albeit an especially strong one, and instead wants to goad them into fighting him where he's strongest. Also, here's a supporting quote for both mid godly ascendant and conceptual type 8.

OBLIGATIONS. Once, I permitted Oryx to kill me so that he could gain the sword logic and overcome Akka our God. This left me trapped deep in my throne. But Oryx my brother made war upon the Ecumene and in that war he described me, for I too am war. Thus I was resurrected.

RESURRECTION. Savath├╗n and I conspired to strand Oryx on his expedition. But I secretly believe that I will be stronger with Oryx to war against. Thus I describe him.

Oryx got out of the darkness due to Xivu Arath invoking his type 8, and Xivu Arath quite clearly states that she just got trapped really deep in her throne.

Law+Concept: Taking is described as altering the shape of things, which fits into that. I'll get you Grimoire links in a second, but I'd like to finish typing the other parts of my response first.

Death manip: Ir Anuk does this:

Behind The Unraveler comes Ir An├╗k, The Weaver. She takes in hand the threads of her sister's work, weaves them into the tapestry of Oryx's realm. Listen, An├╗k An├╗k, who favors bitter things Of the eleven axioms, choose one Of the chosen, spare none Upon Eir's attendance, say Come, Eir, look This truth is dead

Already you are grown, my daughter, already you are a wizard. Have I been away so long? Now you are Ir An├╗k, and Savath├╗n cackles and rages at your brilliance. You have written eleven axioms describing the ascendant places, our throne world. You have announced that you will kill one of these axioms, as Akka would kill the truth, and in mantling Akka you will become a God, as I am. If you try it I may kill you, or I may applaud. Well done. I brought you this bitter acid for your celebrations.

Note the direct comparison between what Anuk will do and what Akka did. Also, Halak has this:

And you, Ir Halak, you are a wizard too, as is the way of twins. I have been with Xivu Arath, who complains that you have made a song, and sung it in her throne world, and killed everyone who listened, quite irrevocably. Will we have songs instead of swords and boomers? What have you made for me? It is a tooth shaped like death! I will keep it in my mouth. What have you written for me? It is the course of the Nicha Thought-ship! I will track it down.

Remember that all ascendant hive should have low or mid godly, depending on what's agreed on. They weren't in their own thrown realms, just in Xivu Arath's court, and yet were still permakilled. Xivu Arath is too strong and resists, but of course.

Resists: Oryx's resists are either on the level of Vex abilities, the level of his own abilities due to his sisters having most of them, or the level of the darkness. Reality warping is used by Vex all the time, Quria, a vex strong enough to adapt to sword logic and even stalemate Oryx's kids firing everything it had at Oryx while Oryx was observing the simulation of young Oryx did nothing to him. Oryx also has this himself, and separate from taking. His sisters should too. EE is the same story. He also has to be able to resist the effects of taking to properly use the ability by necessity. Everyone else who tried to do it is either the darkness, Savathun, or ended up being taken due to it, and Savathun is implied to be using Quria for that. Powernull is both due to siblings and also the guardian effects such as suppression grenades not doing anything despite working on stuff like Vex. Absorption is from when he got stuck in the darkness, as well as general taken abilities, since absorption is the bread and butter of the darkness. There's also how one of his immortalities revolves around being absorbed intentionally to make the victor into him a la Lucius. Minxhax is Siblings, Taken, and Darkness. He uses mindhax independent of the ability to take to constantly control his entire brood of hive and later the taken, so his sisters also have a degree of mindhax at least comparable to hive broods. He's also stated to have an infinite number of warriors, each one under his will. Taking and the Darkness have already been explained. This should become clearer as more destiny profiles get made.


AP: Happen to know what the AP of him making his projection really big and destroying the reef fleet is? Apparently the blast radius scaled to be a radius of about 15k km, so more than 2X earth's size. It's not been calced, but do you think that'd be 5B or 5A?

Speed: I dunno. Places like the Black Garden and VOG are explicitly beyond time, and I'm not exactly sure how one would portray immeasurable speed in an FPS like you seem to wish. Of those that have gotten into VOG, Guardians have their light, Skolas did it using Vex tech, and the Hive is what's being discussed here. I'm not too confident on finding the true omnipresent quote, considering I've forgotten where it came from and Control+Fing on the blog I made with a bunch of grimoire stuff doesn't come up with anything. You can remove that and if I find it, I'll just make a CRT. Nigh stays though. If you feel that I may be confusing this with his acausality, then so be it, change the speed to unknown until someone comes up with a speed feat (can't think of anything off the top of my head rn), but I feel like Ascendant should definitely remain like that. Maybe material, maybe not, unknown for now is probably safer.

 

[Wokistan]

Also, who do you think is a good match for Oryx? If his ascendant is 5C-4B, he seems like he's going to be one of those really annoying overpowered characters in that range. This isn't as important as sorting out his stuff, I just wanted recommendations.

 

[Wokistan]

Also, matter manip resist should be macro quantum as that's what cleavers have shown. Idk why I put molecular.

 

[Wokistan]

Bump

 

[Wokistan]

Also, the grimoire card of Atheon seems to imply immeasurable vex in the VOG.

Atheon waits in the Vault of Glass. Just as Atheon sidesteps 'past' and 'future', it is impossible to say whether Atheon created the Vault or the Vault created Atheon. Causal pathways converge on Atheon from every axis in the space-time bulk.

 

[DMB_1]

Actually, a guy can gave both type 2 and type 3 immortality at the same time if he can still live after is regen has been negged.

The man himselfs confirms it.

 

[Penguinkingpin]

Hey, figured I'd through my hat in hear. I've played both D1 and D2 as well as read through most if not all of the grimoire readings. First, I'd like to throw out some feats and stats for the high end characters, I.e, the Vex, The Worm Gods and Oryx, The Guardian (not many guardians, the special one we play.), The Traveler (in it's prime), and The Darkness. First feat I have is from the grimoire of "Crota, Son of Oryx." which emphasizes how they live in a universe seperate of the one we play in Destiny 1 and the close knit relation between the Worm Gods and the Vex Minds. "He hides in the dark below: the monster of Luna, the titanic god-Knight who walked the regolith beneath a sky of green fire and butchered the greatest army of Guardians ever assembled. We abandoned the Moon rather than face him.

Whispered lore and fragmentary theories suggest that Crota represents a distinct class of Hive entities, not resident in our material world. My latest synthesis of this scattered esoterica suggests that Crota's 'home' is a universe created or remade by his power and occupied by Hive organisms of immense age. Any Guardian formidable enough to return with information on this dark reality might help us understand the Hive's goals for our own world—and, more pressingly, such an expedition might provide the key to Crota's defeat. The epithet Son of Oryx is an ambiguous translation, often disputed. At this time, no direct action by Hive entities of more expansive power has ever been observed. Those who trade in Hive lore bicker over the exact positioning of Crota—is his world the apex of Hive power, or is it the youngest and most accessible of a string of netherworlds, each host to a more terrible Hive archentity? The nature and possible interrelationship of the Vex gate system with Hive netherworlds remains unexplored."

Now, to discuss what was mentioned earlier as the Hive Throne World's being "cyst universes." This comes from the Book of Sorrows Grimoire, Chapter XVII. "Your body is gone, but you have endured. Safe in the cyst universe created by your own might — your throne world. From this day forward, Auryx, you and your sisters will each survive death — so long as you aren't killed in your own throne. Even as your sisters press the attack against the Ammonites, the God-Wave devastates Fundament. Trillions will die. But the survivors will never forget... and their descendants will always be ready for another syzygy. When you return to the material universe, use this lesson to complete your work. Taox wasn't on the dry moon. She must be laughing at you." It is true these universes are called "cyst" universes, in the same grimoire, it states that they return to the material universe, a physical universe. This is an indication of the Throne Worlds being Temporal Universes, 4th dimensional structures that sit above 3rd dimensional realms.

Now for another mention of Hive Power, the grimoire of Ir Halak, the Deathsinger, Daughter of Oryx. "She who stands ahead at the prow of the ship of Oryx, her father. She is Ir Halak, The Unraveler.
She plies her blades upon the fabric of space, cuts the seams, pulls apart the cloth, leaves worlds in tatter"

Now for the biggest piece of evidence I can provide that proves the Worm Gods and Oryx in their true forms are Tier 2 at least. The origin of the Vex's Powers and how they gained them from using the Sword Logic of the Hive. The evidence lies within the Book of Sorrows, verse 4:8 and verse 4:9.

Verse 4:8 "One day Oryx decided to grow new wings. While he wrestled with his worm, he came upon his twin daughters dying in a wound between places. "What are you doing, my daughters?" he asked. He was afraid that Ir Halak and Ir An├╗k were trying to go into the Deep, where only the Tablets of Ruin allowed Oryx to go. "We are dying, father," they said. "As many times as we can manage." "That's adorably precocious." Oryx shook out his new wings. "But why?" "We propose a method by which Ascendant souls can be detached and integrated into a tautological and autonomous thanatosphere, which we tentatively term an oversoul. Oversouls can be stored in a throne world as a mechanism of enhanced death resilience. As a side effect, new refinements to our Deathsong may be achieved, moving us closer to a generally effective paracausal death impulse." Oryx brandished his sword. "Speak the Royal Tongue, or I'll pin you up for Eir to eat." "If we can separate our deaths from ourselves, and hide them, we will be hard to kill." Oryx went to his son, Crota. "Go keep an eye on your sisters," he said. "'You can learn cunning from them." But while Oryx traveled to observe the Deep destroy an ancient fortress world, Crota conspired with his sisters to learn their secrets. "I too will experiment with a wound," he said. With his sword Crota cut open a new wound, into a new space. In here he thought he might obtain a secret power. Out of this wound came machines called Vex. They invaded Oryx's throne world."

Verse 4:9 "The Vex clattered around, constructing large problems. At first their constructions were deranged, because they didn't understand the sword logic, which defined all rules in Oryx's throne world. The geometry perplexed them. "I'll cut them apart," Crota said. But just then, the Vex ritual-of-better-thoughts manifested a Mind called Quria, Blade Transform. Quria deduced the sword logic. I have to kill everything, Quria resolved. Then I will be powerful. Crota's gate began to emit warrior Vex, huge and brassy. He leapt forward to fight them, but they blinked away. After they fled from Crota, they killed two thousand of Oryx's Acolytes and ten thousand of his Thrall. Soon they had established themselves as powers in this world, by right of slaughter."Come forth, sister wizards," called Ir Halak. "We need you." Ir An├╗k pulled a sword star out of the sky. Together the wizards charged it with killing power and made an annihilator totem, which they used to smash the Vex. "Close the wound, brother Crota," An├╗k ordered. "We will find a cunning way to destroy them, but only after they stop constructing problems on us." But Quria had instanced itself to the other side of the gate, and built a holdfast to keep the way open. Quria's objective was to exploit the paracausal physics of Oryx's throne to become divine. It organized a series of test invasions. For a hundred years of local time the siblings fought the Vex. When the Vex came into the sword world, they were inevitably annihilated, but when the Hive went into the Vex world, they lost too much of their power to win "Father's going to eat our souls," Halak sighed. Quria captured some worm larvae and began experimenting with them. Soon Quria, Blade Transform manifested religious tactics. By directing worship at the worms, Quria learned it could alter reality with mild ontopathogenic effects. Being an efficient machine, Quria manufactured a priesthood and ordered all its subminds to believe in worship. Then it set about abducting and killing dangerous organisms so it could bootstrap itself to Hive godhood. For some Vex reason, Quria never attempted to introduce worm larvae into its mind fluid. Savath├╗n was laughing, because she had tricked Crota into cutting that place. This drew the attention of the Worm our God. ORYX, called Eir. SET YOUR HOUSE IN ORDER"

To save time and energy, I'll summarize what happened afterwards. Oryx returned to his Throne, slayed the Vex, and killed Quira.

Now to the Vex, there are two majors constructs that signify the tier 2 status of the Vex. The first is the Vault of Glass, which is a temporal departure from the main universe, seeing as time flows differently inside the Vault of Glass. Atheon is in charge of manipulating space-time inside the Vault and uses this to fight against the Guardians. Though the Guardian's eventually overcome this. Then there's the Garden World from the Curse of Osiris DLC. The Garden World is a Vex Constructed Reality which is used to create simulations of realities in which the Vex attain their ideal reality with only themselves existing. The major thing to note is that it is said that there are infinite realities within the Garden, however, this should be disregarded as it is a major outlier when compared to the Low Tier 2-C feats and statements we've seen, so for consistencies sake, we'll say it's a number of infinite 3-D universes on a 4-D space.


And that's all I have, Guardians when using their full power are equal to Atheon and the Worm Gods, however, when they aren't, they're likely equal to Oryx's physical form.

 

[Wokistan]

The Vex actually didn't gain all their power upon the discovery of the hive, but their discovery of the hive and later the black heart would prove to shape the course of their research. The quote calling it a cyst universe implies being too small for low 2C according to Azzy, and with the best estimate of distance I can find being how Toland describes flying between several green suns, I'd be inclined to agree. The Ascendant realm proper is doubtless a separate universe, maybe even a higher dimension from how it's described, but all that's shown here is some really crazy spacetime stuff combined with acausality. The vex sims were rejected for the purpose of scaling, as Panoptes never demonstrated tier 2 power within them. While the stronger Vex and ascendant hive exist unbound by the flow of time, it's not necessarily a low 2C feat. I personally kinda feel like Oryx should be, but if the same justifications were to be applied elsewhere random daemons from 40K would be tier 2 in the warp, rather than just having their feats being considered good spacetime manip and pocket dimension creation.

 

[Penguinkingpin]

"The quote calling it a cyst universe implies being too small for low 2C according to Azzy." The term cyst here is being used to describe the repulsive nature of the throne worlds. And if you read my previous post, I address in the same paragrah of that line, it states that they return to the physical universe from their own universe. Stating that they return to the physical universe provides a contrast that indicates that the Throne Worlds are somehow different than the physican universe, this coupled with Ikora's quote of the Hive Gods not being present in the material universe is fairly solid evidence of the Throne Worlds existing as Temporal Dimensions.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Throne Worlds are very clearly separate from the physical universe the same way something inside an actual cyst is in its own bubble. This doesn't suggest Low 2-C, though. I'll respond to the earlier stuff when I get my computer back.

 

[Wokistan]

I also found something indicative of hive precog of some sort in the meantime.

https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-warlock-2#wei-ning


Basically, Eris and Eriana-3 are torturing a hive wizard to try to get info on Crota, and it shares with them a vision of future events that would come to pass.

 

[Wokistan]

Also, about the regen negation. Xivu Arath was specifically the one to complain about her court getting permakilled by Oryx's daughter, and she's one of the very few hive who would actually know about the mid godly thing. If it were just some random hive that likely doesn't know about how even the throne world death just sent the hive god trio even deeper into their throne world, then capping it at low godly would be sensible, but due to it being from one of those individuals aware of that capacity for Regenerationn, negging mid godly should be fine.

 

[Wokistan]

I noticed earlier that the power nullification was called into question via being done with sword logic. While its now established that he's both done that and mundane power null/absorption, why exactly does noping powers through the sword logic not count as power null? It may work different mechanically, but its still nullifying powers. His sword logic power null is probably better anyways. I can understand wanting it to be under law manip since its done via law manip, but would it not be better to list that specific application so we don't run into the issue of him using one power for something that he can't do according to his profile? As stated before, he can do both ways, so nothing would change, but just wondering what your rationale for that was.

 

[Wokistan]

Gonna leave yet another question to be answered when you get back.


Oryx can BFR guardians to the darkness dimension, a pocket dimension inside a pocket dimension, and among other things can collapse it on you which causes death that can't be revived from. I doubt this works like that, but would that require high godly regen? The description of high godly matches up with that, but it seems weird. This wouldn't actually give anyone in destiny high godly to the best of my knowledge, except possibly toland, but I just kinda wanted to know.

 

[Holyhotsauce]

High-Godly requires a character to be able to regenerate from the complete destruction of the entire cosmology of the Verse they are from.

I think

 

[Penguinkingpin]

That is true, High Godly requires to complete destruction of your reality as well as your being, mind, body, and soul. The highest regen we could assign to the Destinyverse is Mid Godly which is high as we can go without having the universe of Destiny destroyed.

 

[Wokistan]

The Darkness dimension is a separate reality that they get BFRed to. I didn't expect that to require high godly, but I just thought "Hey wouldn't that technically need high godly? Doesn't sound right but I'll ask anyways". I've heard of high godly on a specific dimensional scale, for instance, though that was with a correct usage of dimension to refer to the directional axis stuff rather than a pocket universe like here.

 

[DMB_1]

No, regenerating from the destruction of a pocket dimension doesn't require high-godly. To have gained high-godly you'd have to regen from the destruction that is at least one spatial or temporal dimension above you.

Example: a 3D being regenerating from the complete destruction of a 4th dimensional or higher construct.

 

[Wokistan]

High-Godly: The ability to regenerate even after the totality of your existence is erased, alongside with the reality you are within.

Nothing indicates that the reality you're in needs to be dimensionally superior to you, though that would be a sensible requirement, as to differentiate from just good mid-godly. Question's been answered then, and Oryx has other ways around mid godly as is so its not that big a deal.

 

[DMB_1]

That's how we've always treated High-Godly.

 

[Kaltias]

High-Godly is when everything on your dimensional level is nuked alongside you.

SMT demons regenerating after the collapse of the multiverse, for example

 

[Wokistan]

not back when it was surviving nonexistence erasure

Its probably just a general assumption that you're spatially inferior to your reality then, and in 1-A that doesn't matter anymore as they get their own regen. It makes sense, its just kinda unclear on the page.

 

[Wokistan]

bump?

 

[Holyhotsauce]

No human being in the Ishtar Academy has ever crossed the safety cordon and walked the ancient stone under the Citadel, the Vex construct that stabs up out of the world to injure space and time. It's not safe. The cellular Vex elements are infectious, hallucinogenic, entheogenic. The informational Vex elements are more dangerous yet— and there could be semiotic hazards beyond them, aggressive ideas, Vex who exist without a substrate. Even now, operating remote bodies by neural link, the team's thoughts are relayed through the Warmind who saved them, sandboxed and scrubbed for hazards. Their real bodies are safe in the Academy, protected by distance and neural firewall.
	~ https://db.destinytracker.com/d1/grimoire/enemies/vex/ghost-fragment-vex-4​

This is what people in the Golden Age had to do just to get close to the Citadel.
No wonder normal people aren't allowed in the Tower.

 

[Wokistan]

It's simulating us. Vividly. Elaborately. It's running a spectacularly high-fidelity model of a Collective research team studying a captive Vex entity. -Ghost fragment: Vex

But they walk together in proxy, pressed close, huddled in awe. Blue-green light, light the color of an ancient sea, washes over them. Each of their explorer bodies carries a slim computer. Inside, two hundred twenty-seven of copies of their own minds wait, patient and paused, for dispersal. -Ghost fragment: Vex 5

Irrefutable proof of 2-C basic Goblins, and you can't change my mind

In all serious, the Osiris comic does seem to suggest that vex simulations can have a real and dangerous effect on humanity if left unchecked.

 

[Holyhotsauce]

It's simulating us. Vividly. Elaborately. It's running a spectacularly high-fidelity model of a Collective research team studying a captive Vex entity. -Ghost fragment: Vex
But they walk together in proxy, pressed close, huddled in awe. Blue-green light, light the color of an ancient sea, washes over them. Each of their explorer bodies carries a slim computer. Inside, two hundred twenty-seven of copies of their own minds wait, patient and paused, for dispersal. -Ghost fragment: Vex 5

Irrefutable proof of 2-C basic Goblins, and you can't change my mind

In all serious, the Osiris comic does seem to suggest that vex simulations can have a real and dangerous effect on humanity if left unchecked.

It also states that the VoG exists in many alternate realities.