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Logic Manipulation Addition Thread

Well... the thing is we "seperate" logic and it effect (i dont know what word is good to describe that), thats why making 1+1 equal 3 are just math manip to begin with, unless you affect the logic that "behind" it

In other word, verse must explicitly stated/mean to stated logic or it law, not just provide some contradiction feats
The reason we separate out mathematics is because 1+1=3 isn't a contradiction on its own. There are plenty of systems of mathematics out there where this is a perfectly consistent and true statement, we just don't care about those systems because they aren't helpful to us. You have to assume the axioms of mathematics that we use (ZFC) in order for this to be a contradiction. Therefore, if a character makes 1+1=3, we assume that they're doing this by manipulation the axioms of mathematics, rather than the laws of logic.

On the other hand, if a character just manifests a logical contradiction without further context, like "this rock is both in my hand and not in my hand", there's no wiggle room there, that's a blatant violation of deductive reasoning. We then have to assume that it's the laws of logic being manipulated.
 
The reason we separate out mathematics is because 1+1=3 isn't a contradiction on its own. There are plenty of systems of mathematics out there where this is a perfectly consistent and true statement, we just don't care about those systems because they aren't helpful to us. You have to assume the axioms of mathematics that we use (ZFC) in order for this to be a contradiction. Therefore, if a character makes 1+1=3, we assume that they're doing this by manipulation the axioms of mathematics, rather than the laws of logic.

On the other hand, if a character just manifests a logical contradiction without further context, like "this rock is both in my hand and not in my hand", there's no wiggle room there, that's a blatant violation of deductive reasoning. We then have to assume that it's the laws of logic being manipulated.
Yeah.. i mean based on what i see from DT's respond, i think our standard "seperate" logic and it effect, making it like CM 1
 
Kim Dokja: A square circle is one of the archetypical examples of a logical contradiction. There is the Mathematics Manipulation angle, but we have to consider author intent here too, and the author clearly intended for this to be Logic Manipulation. I say it qualifies.
I think this is just Mathematical with Spatial hax, of course you can stretch it to Logic hax, but at best you could only get a possibly Logic hax
Okay, so technically there are these things called "Banach Spaces", which can have norms defined on them that make circles into squares and vice versa, but I still don't see why we should assume such a thing by default. We wouldn't by default assume Mathematics Manipulation for a regular distortion of space time (which is a mathematical space, both in modern physics and in our Tiering System), so why should we assume it for this? Unless it's made clear that it was done through a manipulation of mathematics, we should assume Logic Manipulation instead.
 
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Okay, so technically there are these things called "Banach Spaces", which can have norms defined on them that make circles into squares and vice versa, but I still don't see why we should assume such a thing by default. We wouldn't by default assume Mathematics Manipulation for a distortion of space time (which is a mathematical space, both in modern physics and in our Tiering System), so why should we assume it for this? Unless it's made clear that it was done through a manipulation of mathematics, we should assume Logic Manipulation instead.
That just my thinking, i already said that you can assume it is Logic hax instead, kinda of a gray area
 
So what are we thinking? The original point of this thread was to find examples of Logic Manipulation in fiction, and I think we've found a fair amount. @DontTalkDT's approval is required of course, but I say we add all the proposals listed under "should qualify" in this comment. I'm also in favor of listing Beelzebub as "possibly Logic Manipulation", as well as Altair until @Vesxpura posts his CRT which will hopefully have additional context for us to make a definite verdict.
 
I'd be fine with possibly logic manipulation
Though I currently have 2 or 3 profiles in the making that use the same chaos as Beelzebub, so I'd assume if possibly allowed, so do the other 2-3, since chaos is basically part of their physiology and uses it as well
 
I'd be fine with possibly logic manipulation
Though I currently have 2 or 3 profiles in the making that use the same chaos as Beelzebub, so I'd assume if possibly allowed, so do the other 2-3, since chaos is basically part of their physiology and uses it as well
Yeah, that's probably fine, as long as DT accepts it, although he did say earlier that he was leaning towards that.
 
Where? Did I miss it?
What about this?

Pretty much Reason/Logic is prior and underlying causality and fate, which, of course, thing that manipulate it can cause time/causal paradox too
Here, it is also responsible for dimension that contains both existent dimension and nonexistent dimensions at the same time

There is more but currently i'm busy so.....
 
Here, it is also responsible for dimension that contains both existent dimension and nonexistent dimensions at the same time

There is more but currently i'm busy so.....
Well with what I can see right now, I'd probably also list it as possibly Logic Manipulation. You do say there's more context though, so I'll wait for that then.
 
Well with what I can see right now, I'd probably also list it as possibly Logic Manipulation. You do say there's more context though, so I'll wait for that then.
Tbf, i think this is enough for solid logic hax, since Logic/Reason is ground for causal paradox, But well

OrderLaw & Logic are parts of「Time」 that transcends everything, rules all of time, governs reality and holds dominion over all of existence. thus Time Power is also both Law & Logic and has controls over these two metaphysical aspects that shapes & dictates the logical principles of the multiverse, with timelines are created over the smallest of things, every different choice splits histories into many others, time paradoxes are solved by branching the timeline into a new one to accommodate any changes in the "past" and keeping the "future" unchanged; these Law & Logic of「Time」also created different principle that applies on gods differently compare to that of mortal's logic which force time paradox which is logical contradiction to change timelines without them splitting unlike mortals which make timelines splitting with their action; and Time Power can applies both principles upon the timelines to alter them. The power can also control and even modify this rulelogic, making a new principle that histories couldn't branch anymore in any way. Can nullifies the effects of Time which includes its Law & Logic on anything, make them does not operate under any logical principle whatsoever, creates logical contradicting existences; such as despite taking hit that blasted the body away which logically the damage that done via the action hitting should remain, yet the body was restored and the damage was erased as if nothing ever happen, creating some sorts of pseudo-immortality. As Time Power can nullifies the effects of Time, its Law & Logic on existence, the power could also reverse the nullification, reapplies the effects of Time, the Law & Logic back onto existence, force everything operate under Law & Logic of Time again.

Here, more contexts
 
So I'm gonna make a list of all the current proposals on this thread (that haven't been fully addressed yet) and rank them by how much I think they qualify (and I wrote the defining logic section so I think I have a decent amount of authority here).

Should qualify:
  • Cosmic Imagination: This one's about as blatant as you can get. It literally says that "two opposite propositions are both proven to be true", and one of the ways of doing this is stated to be "altering physical laws" so you can't argue Mind Manipulation. If this doesn't qualify, I don't know what does.
  • Kim Dokja: A square circle is one of the archetypical examples of a logical contradiction. There is the Mathematics Manipulation angle, but we have to consider author intent here too, and the author clearly intended for this to be Logic Manipulation. I say it qualifies.
  • @RM97's Proposal: There's no reason why this shouldn't be Logic Manipulation. Context was provided, with the girl being able to control the world, so I think it's disingenuous to argue flowery language here. DT also argued quantum superposition, but that fundamentally misunderstands how superposition works. It's not a particle existing in multiple distinct states, but a single indeterminate state. The particle effectively doesn't exist at all until the wave function collapses, at which point it appears in a single, determinate state. Something existing in multiple distinct, determinate, and opposing states at once is a blatant logical contradiction, and thus blatant Logic Manipulation.
  • Sword Logic: A lot of the stuff presented is not good evidence, but I say Sword Logic qualifies primarily because of this. Taking a true statement and making it false seems like blatant Logic Manipulation to me, especially since there isn't additional context that would allow us to attribute this to, say, Law Manipulation for example. There is the Subjective Reality angle, but I don't think that's right considering the way it was described. Additionally, here's some supporting evidence, although I admit it wouldn't be enough to qualify on its own.
Unsure/Maybe:
  • @Vesxpura's Proposal: I need more context to reach a clear verdict here. Like, I see statements about a world "not allowing contradictory laws" and "forces that try to make things make sense" which sounds like Logic Manipulation on paper, but I'd need a feat of someone actually manipulating these "forces" in order to come to a decision.
  • Beelzebub: It's... really difficult to tell with this one. The two main feats are creating entities that are both biological and inorganic and making night and day exist simultaneously. The first thing could just be a cyborg, but the way it's talked about really doesn't feel like that's the case (Again, we have to consider author intent). The second thing specifically says that "the sun and the moon share the sky simultaneously", which obviously isn't a logical contradiction as that happens all the time in real life, but it goes on to say that it "blurs the line between night and day" which again, considering author intent, implies a logical contradiction. I can't really make a clear verdict here one way or the other. @TheGreatJedi13 if you can provide additional context please do so.
  • @Le'garde273's Proposal: You can argue for or against Logic Manipulation based on the context given here. A lot of the statements present "Reason" as the ground for laws, which, while a necessary condition for Logic Manipulation, is not a sufficient one. Are there any examples of characters actually interfering with deductive reasoning, such as manifesting logical contradictions or making true statements false or vice versa? If not, I'd probably just list it as high level Law Manipulation.
Probably not:
  • Xeno A: The scan presented seems to provide a single instance of Mathematics Manipulation, and two instances of Probability Manipulation. No Logic Manipulation to be found.
To ask about one thing regarding Xeno a, wouldn't "Gaining Type 1 immortality through setting cells aging probability to 0%" be something greater than Probability/Mathematics Manipulation alone?
 
To ask about one thing regarding Xeno a, wouldn't "Gaining Type 1 immortality through setting cells aging probability to 0%" be something greater than Probability/Mathematics Manipulation alone?
No, it's just extreme Probability Manipulation. If you consider that almost everything in reality is governed by probability because of quantum mechanics (there's even a probability of the sun exploding right now, it's just so tiny it's basically nonexistent), then making it impossible for your cells to age is just another application of that, as long as it was stated or made clear through background context that it was done through manipulation of probability.
 
Will this count for Logic Manipulation for Altair?
Basically, the laws of the real world maintain reason and order as something that's rational and does not allow contradictions to exist. These contradictions are essentially illogical things that oppose the reason/logic of the real world, such as creations from the storyworlds. As such, the Laws of the Real World will be "P" while the Creations or Contradictions will be "not-P". If contradictions were to exist in the real world, the Restorative Power of the Real World would quickly try to "make sense" of them and nullify them to make them logical. This is especially shown when the Restorative Power of the Real World was able to instantly nullify Meteora at the end of the series when she was left alone as the only creation in the real world. However, if creations continue to arrive at such a rate that the Restorative Power of the Real World would fail to "make sense" of them, then everything would end as "P" and "not-P" would negate each other. Case in point, when Setsuna was revived as a creation, she wanted to die because if she didn't, then everything would end. Altair's ability, the 23rd Movement, is stated to make the reason of the world non-existent, and rebuilds it to allow this contradiction. In fact, the very kanji used here is "理", which means Reason, Principle, and/or Logic.
 
Will this count for Logic Manipulation for Altair?
Definitely a solid case to be made there, yeah. I think the reason I was kinda on the fence with Vesxpura was because he gave a bunch of scans without really explaining how they connect together. This context helps a lot though, so I'd say it qualifies.

The other creations would probably also get limited Paraconsistent Physiology, due to being in conflict with the world's logic.
 
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I'm was going to add this to the Star Gods and Path Unifier of YTSY Verse, would this qualify as Logic Manipulation?

An closed her eyes. She recalled the moment of her own birth. A black ocean contained infinite possibilities and logics, countless axioms and concepts.

She was a tree. An Axiom Tree that grew from the deep, infinite void. She came from choice, was born of logic, strong and immense, towering and robust.

And around her were countless, endless other Axiom Trees, just like her. They were weak, slender, unable to grow strong, only able to maintain a simple form of existence.

An couldn't help but think of an analogy: a planet as complex and robust as Terra, teeming with countless forms of life, versus a planet made entirely of pure water, composed only of hydrogen and oxygen.

Even if their mass were the same, and their atomic count identical to the universe, the possibilities they could gestate would be completely different. They might indeed originate from the same "node of choice," both initially being hydrogen and oxygen, but one formed Terra, and the other a giant water ball.

One gave rise to numerous elegant theorems from its axioms; the other was fragile and singular.

It was because she was such a complete Axiom Tree that she could be born.

And the difference between her and her parent body, the Great Swarm of a Thousand Stars, lay in...

She was based on a kind of [Incomplete Theorem].

An undecidable theorem, one whose full scope could not be deduced from an infinite set.

In this universe, there exist things that are "truly true," yet are beyond the reach of human logic, beyond any artificially constructed logical system to touch, attain, prove, or analyze.

Mathematics is such a logical system. As a man-made tool, mathematics is not some system inherent to the universe, yet behind it lies a "platonic universe of mathematics," a "prototypical universe" that transcends human logic and, indeed, all logic.

A kind of truth.

Humans are a race that cannot see the truth, cannot touch the Great Dao. Though they live in the universe, can see electromagnetic waves, touch collections of matter, hear the vibrations of waves, sense the activity and retreat of molecules, and smell the characteristics of specific molecular structures... it is too little, far too little.

To the universe, humanity is still blind.

Although mathematics is merely an artificially constructed logical system, it can serve as a blind person's cane, guiding humanity to explore aspects of this "world of ideas."

But precisely because it is an incomplete tool, human mathematics discovers that there exists a kind of mathematical truth with real meaning whose paradigm transcends any given formal system. Its very existence reveals the limitations of the logical tool itself—that is, one cannot simply start from axioms and use basic logical rules to construct proofs or decide all other propositions.

Within any set of mathematical theories, there must exist some undecidable proposition. A single system of mathematical logic can only prove a part of mathematical truth, while "complete mathematics" itself is inexhaustible.

And from this inexhaustible sequence of theories, by simply taking a part, one can generate a specific kind of "solution" to the truth.

Take the continuum hypothesis, for example.

Many sets are infinite. Between 0 and 1 lie numerous real numbers, scattered like stars in the sky.

The real numbers are uncountable; their set is larger than the set of integers. Does another infinite set exist between the set of real numbers and the set of integers?

This question is undecidable within a logically concise system like set theory; an additional assumption must be made.

And through such assumptions—these axioms that are "perhaps true, perhaps false"—one can derive many different versions of "mathematics."

—The universe is such a "solution."

Some universes, born from uncountable mathematics—like the "Tachyon Spacetime" adopted by the Thousand Stars fire-kindler—have the speed of light as a lower limit, with no upper speed limit, and cannot use motion to mark spatial distance and temporal evolution.

Other universes lack a conventional—conventional by human logic—spatiotemporal foundation; they are a transcendent whole, a super-structure of mutual inclusion.

Still other universes are static from the beginning, everything a predetermined process, as solid as bedrock.

And in others, everything is a still frame, a three-dimensional cross-section arranged in four dimensions.

And yet other universes, including their infinite parallel spacetimes, are a complete, unified whole, in which every event has a definite "value."

It has no past, present, or future, or rather, the reality of its past, present, and future are all equivalent.

There are even some universes that, from beginning to end, consist of only a single "monad." The consciousness of this monad is itself a loop, an infinite cycle.

The Star Gods, from the very beginning, from the source, constructed the most fundamental logic of being and non-being, and from this logic constructed countless universes, obtaining an infinite and uncountable number of solutions.

That is, the truly infinite universes, and their respective, independent, infinite parallel spacetimes.

And in all these universes, there is life.

Life utterly different from humans, yet life nonetheless.

This, reflected in the "Great Swarm of a Thousand Stars," is the "gestation of different offspring."

Within the Thousand Stars fire-kindler, there exists an incomplete catalog of meta-mathematical variants. By making choices and calculations from it, one can obtain countless different solutions through "undecidable hypotheses."

—Life is such a "solution."

A logical system cannot become complete simply by including enough simple arithmetic axioms. These axioms can always be used to construct statements that can neither be proven nor disproven. By taking these statements as additional axioms to enrich itself, one can obtain countless "solutions" that are "derived from itself, yet different from itself."

That is, an infinite variety of offspring.

Because all of this is incomplete, infinitely many different versions of mathematics will branch out like a "tree," extending its boughs. And every "Child of a Thousand Stars" is an "Axiom Tree" gestated from the Thousand Stars fire-kindler.

They are life forms that are compatible with this "Terra Aetheric Universe," absolutely capable of surviving and thriving within it—a life that has "already made its choice before it was born."

The Thousand Stars fire-kindler is just such a vast, self-iterating catalog of complete logical systems, using this screening method to gestate offspring that originate from itself yet are completely different.

The Beast of a Thousand Stars truly mimicked the way the Star Gods hatched universes to construct its own original form, that fire-kindler which hatches the Thousand Stars.

The universes are the children of the Star Gods. The Star Gods stand "outside the logical universe," upon the convergent armament known as the "Great Aetheric Gyre," enveloping all that is. They are the founders who reside outside of logic, the first movers.
 
Another day, another round of submissions.
I wanna check if Dragon Ball Heroes still has their logic npi qualified or not.
Idk, seems iffy to me. Like, sure, gods can force time paradoxes, but then there's this:
  • Alterations to logic should only be listed as Logic Manipulation if truly of a fundamentally logical nature. Changes such as making 1 + 1 = 3 should for instance be listed as Mathematics Manipulation instead, as that is only a logical contradiction if one assumes the axioms of mathematics to be valid. For similar reasons, time paradoxes get listed as Acausality or Causality Manipulation and are not fundamentally considered logical contradictions.
So it seems to me that Beerus is just overriding the laws of causality, not logic. It's not enough to go off of, sorry.
I'm was going to add this to the Star Gods and Path Unifier of YTSY Verse, would this qualify as Logic Manipulation?
Seems pretty obvious to me, yeah. The verse is pretty rigorously defining what they mean by logic here, and it lines up with the defining logic section. You could maybe argue that it's just Mathematics Manipulation, but the verse seems to just be using math as an analogy. It probably qualifies.
Can we neuter chinamen already

Bump for Kim Dokja. Is his stuff accepted or nah?
DT said no previously, but new arguments have been made, so maybe he'll change his mind. I'd personally argue that yeah, he qualifies.
 
That's why I said he's a consultant.

He wasn't given permission to officially approve
I'm aware of this. That's why I've been mostly saying stuff like "it probably qualifies" or "I'd say it qualifies", because I don't want to act like I have actual authority to approve these things. I'm mostly just determining what I think should qualify, and I can argue with DT if he disputes it, but the final authority falls on him, of course.
 
Another day, another round of submissions.

Idk, seems iffy to me. Like, sure, gods can force time paradoxes, but then there's this:

So it seems to me that Beerus is just overriding the laws of causality, not logic. It's not enough to go off of, sorry.

Seems pretty obvious to me, yeah. The verse is pretty rigorously defining what they mean by logic here, and it lines up with the defining logic section. You could maybe argue that it's just Mathematics Manipulation, but the verse seems to just be using math as an analogy. It probably qualifies.

DT said no previously, but new arguments have been made, so maybe he'll change his mind. I'd personally argue that yeah, he qualifies.
Not sure if you'd be interested in evaluating my proposal, though it is kinda lengthy, and you might have already read it, who knows. But it felt as if DT just swept it under the rug thinking it was something he'd already went over simply because I used a few similar scans another user on this site used, while I went to great lengths explaining why it simply isn't something akin to absurdity. I'll probably make a CRT either way but I'm open for any outside opinions
 
Not sure if you'd be interested in evaluating my proposal, though it is kinda lengthy, and you might have already read it, who knows. But it felt as if DT just swept it under the rug thinking it was something he'd already went over simply because I used a few similar scans another user on this site used, while I went to great lengths explaining why it simply isn't something akin to absurdity. I'll probably make a CRT either way but I'm open for any outside opinions
I'll get to it later at some point. I'm pretty busy with college and stuff right now.
 
Since I never really brought this up in detail, I believe it is just Paraconsistent Physiology. But it is more than just existence, seeing what it can do
Basically, Pandemonium has the power over captivity and Power over Rebirth
Exercised it over Fallen Angels
Said Fallen Angel does not possess any form of Death nor Rebirth, as they are created without it.
Causing a Paradox
(It was also stated that when Astrals and Primal Beast were created, everything up to their end is created, and they remain unchanging. even stated multiple times as immutable, and the normal course for them is stagnation if progress is being forced upon them.)
Those who can resist Rebirth through their own powers were unaffected because they resisted it
But those who weren't became Highly Paradoxical energy called Precipein Entity
But this said energy is capable of slaying God, and is volatile because it is unknown what it would and can do
So they have to lock it, but require something equivalent, which is Olivia, whose True Body is among those that became Paradoxical Energy
So much so that even Indestructibility is something that wouldn't remain unaffectedif exposed to it
because the logic of his indestructibility only applies to the power of the Sky and the Astral Realm
which is proven true because Chaos, who erodes Providence, which includes divinely crafted logic, can indeed harm him
And coming into contact with them in large amounts would also cause you to become one with them
And as expected, Chaos (the same thing Beelzebub uses and has) is among the few that could directly interfere or affect them without being overwhelmed by it.

In this case we have chaos whom in argued earlier if possible to have logic manip
then precipien entity which is completely different from Chaos but also something that exist outside the logic that works for Astral and Sky powers
 
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Is this logic manipulation? Seems like the law of identity/law of noncontradiction is being violated
But there are also other Curses as well, other Blessings, and so many of these contradict. For if the will of the Demiurge is near absolute, and if a Curse is an insertion of a phrase, a declaration for your soul, then what happens when a paradox follows?

A schism. A War of Canon. For just as there is only One True Faith for the One-In-All, there can only be one true commandment branded upon a soul. One thing cannot be itself and another. For such a fate to greet a faith will end in schism, and such an act to scar a soul will result in the dissolution of the warring taints, and then freedom thereafter…

—The Blessed and the Damned by Legend-Hexweaver Passi Falls-Like-Leaves

Paradoxes are also described as this
Paradox: The clashing of two absolutes, creating an impossibility. Example: A Heaven of Indestructibility clashes against a Heaven of Destruction or one that dissolves matter. The resulting collision between two counter-simulated realities projected from clashing Souls–regardless of thaumic mass or design–results in both spiking with Rend and the need to vent their Hells.
 
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I'll get to it later at some point. I'm pretty busy with college and stuff right now.
Oh yeah, we were told to make a crt for opinions so made one. Since you're giving yours, ig will also show the sandbox here for you for whenever. Focused on logic manip section (similar to what he said but ig a bit more explained and/or summarized in some areas)
 
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