Looking back at Megaman Zero, revisions and debunking.

[Clyde_McReady]

S'up, guys. See, I've been playing Megaman Zero a lot lately, I'm currently at 4. They're good games, though they went somewhat downhill and the plot got weaker because of the poor continuity with the X games at parts. What I need to address here is some possible issues with the scaling and feats, for example, all the Guardians here were scaled to Zero, even though Zero not only defeated them multiple times but Copy X himself states that even if Fefnir, Leviathan and Harpuia were to team up on him, they would still be no match for him. I think they should be lower based on that but worry not because I'll bring up a good feat for them to make up for it. Another thing is, I see a lot of scaling from the X games. I think it's valid to a certain extent but the one issue I have with it is one theory that is accepted by most of my fellow fans that says that because of conflicts between developers, Zero saga was made following the events of X5 directly instead of later games, explaining why Zero is suspended there and brought back later for the first Zero game. Don't take it as a fact until I find contradictions between the Zero games and the last X games though.

Now, I plan to put the Guardians at at least planet level and FTL becuase they did damage to Omega and since he has the original Zero's body, he should have planet level durability at least. I'll leave them at the same speed for briefly blitzing Dark Elf though. Instead of scaling Omega just from fighting Zero, he should also get scaled from Dark Elf since he was empowered by her and she was a world threat with MFTL speeds.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Given the fact that Zero is well into Solar System level at a few dozen times baseline, and even if they couldn't beat him together, they could still wound him at the very least a little, their tiers wouldn't change.

 

[Clyde_McReady]

Wound is a powerful word. But yeah, what I was going to mention that time when they damaged Omega one at a time. I'd say they're still FTL+ with Planet to Star DC. I'm not very fond of using X8 feats for Zero saga since it was released after the first half of it and creative differences suggest Zero as a divergent timeline

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

My knowledge on the subject drops off after basic scaling and the feat. I don't know about chronological (not numerical, for obvious reasons) order of the games or the potential diverging timelines. You're better off asking our resident Mega Man expert Reppuza at this point.

 

[Reppuzan]

There's a reason why I scale Zero from the X Games.

In Mega Man Zero 3, Zero fights Omega, who is effectively Zero's body brought to its full potential. Despite his inferior Copy Body, he manages to bring said body to the point of incapacitation and eventually destroying it with one final blow.

I understand there's the whole issue of diverging timelines from Inafune's vision for the series. While the games were made before X8, they still take place in the X series' future. In addition, references to X series concepts, such as A-Trans, were found in the second sequel game, Mega Man ZX Advent.

It should be noted that even if the Guardians were not as powerful as Zero, they would still be well into the Solar System level range for actually being a threat to him and managing to fight with him for extended periods of time, with Zero actually being at risk of being killed when Hidden Phantom attempted to self-destruct.

Is it ideal? No. But this is the most logical solution I can come up with since the timelines blur due to the events of ZX and ZX Advent.

 

[Clyde_McReady]

Tell me about it. But the other issue is that some of Zero's greatest strengths weren't showcased all too well. I'm currently about to beat Weil and end the saga but even in there I found contradictory low showings. For example, Zero gets affected and can die from prolonged exposure to an artificial sun's heat when in X8 he tanked Lumine's star explosion. I also know MvC isn't "canon" but Zero's ending shows that the Megaman Zero earth and the original Zero's earth were separate earths. Questionable but they wouldn't put it if they didn't really know what they're doing. They did retcon Zero's appearance and they constantly commit the mistake of calling him a reploid when he's an original android so it's not so hard to believe that they split the timeline. But I feel ya, I'm willing to take feats from X4 since Eurasya is mentioned and X5 since the ending ties into Zero. Another thing though, is the solar system level from the squeeze bomb? Because even though Omega had original Zero's body he lacked the weapons so I advise that we just scale him to base Zero with saber. I also don't know what to think about Zero's death at the end, the explosion that killed him may have been star lvl but that means we can't put his Zero saga self at Solar System. Zero games always had less impressive showings. I'll begin the updates later.

 

[Reppuzan]

I didn't accept your changes, Clyde. I just gave my reasoning.

All of the major characters are currently scaled to Lumine's pocket dimension collapsing feat.

Given the abundance of cosmic-level feats in the series, I have to take Zero's death at the end of Zero 4 as an outlier rather than the other way around.

 

[Reppuzan]

Also, remember that Omega is using Zero's original body, meaning that it would in fact scale to the X Series since X and Zero have been gaining upgrades ever since then.

 

[Dark649]

X and Zero fought and defeated Omega here.

 

[Reppuzan]

I also want to bring up the idea that Omega doesn't have Zero's weapons is also false.

He explicitly uses the Ryuenjin, Messenkou, and Rekkoha throughout his fight with Zero as well as a technique similar to Hadangeki.

In the video Dark649 posted, X and Zero also used the Final Strike, which first appeared in Mega Man X: Command Mission.

 

[Clyde_McReady]

You didn't, and yeah, you did, but there's still issues with it. I recall the dimension breaking feat being calculated to be below solar system. Above star lvl but still below solar system. I'm talking weapons like squeeze bomb, which were the ones makinh them solar system level. The techniques Omega used were from what games exactly? And it wasn't just Zero's death, I mentioned there was also him being heavily damaged by an artificial sun.

Don't know if I can take the audio drama as a canon reference. Axl wasn't with them so it might be pre X7.

 

[Clyde_McReady]

And I already covered the Guardians being far weaker than base first game Zero even when together. I do not think they can be scaled to Lumine and X8 characters.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Clyde

It was recalculated.

We generally ignore things like the Sol Titanion stage since they're vastly below the energy output he and X put out.

Omega's techniques were from Zero 3. I wouldn't use a non-canon source like his boss fight in ZX.

The fact that they can even pose a credible threat to him in a first place grants them scaling. If they were that much weaker than Zero's copy body, then Zero could have flicked them to destroy them. This is on top of the fact that they temporarily incapacitated the Mother Elf and brought Omega to his knees after he was weakened by Zero.

 

[Clyde_McReady]

Good, remind me to throw that around for debates. I don't question the power of X8 Zero though, what I question is using it to scale Zero saga.

You shouldn't, Ciel makes it clear that could kill Zero. It could be PIS but still.

My question meant what games were the techniques from? I'm talking the attacks he used at the end of Zero 3, if they were pre-X7 I can't take that as evidence or even consider it.

I know because I have the game, you don't have to remind me but it's heavily implied that Zero just goes easy on them. He never did consider killing them, it's stupid because he killed many others but Zero 3 proves that he doesn't want them dead. They couldn't pose a threat to armored Omega who was less powerful than base Zero so there's your proof, Zero > Armored Omega >>> Guardians.

 

[Reppuzan]

Being superior doesn't warrant a tier downgrade. To put it in perspective, your edits would make Zero 10^20 times (that's 100,000,000,000,000,000,000 times stronger than the Guardians) and 200,000 times slower. Does that sound reasonable to you in the slightest?

I don't see why it would be PIS when all Four Guardians acknowledge Zero as a worthy opponent and them in turn. Yes, Zero would rather not kill them due to them being good-natured, but the fact of the matter is that even if he were to use a millionth of a milltionth of a millionth of his full power, he'd still one-shot them with ease if your edits go through, which is frankly ridiculous.

Ryuenjin - Mega Man X4

Kuuenzan - Mega Man X4

Messenkou - Mega Man X5

Rekkoha - Mega Man X6

Omega uses all of these attacks in the final phase of his fight with Zero.

These changes you're proposing aren't going through.

 

[Clyde_McReady]

What are you even suggesting? I don't follow. Look the point is, putting the Guardians at the same tier as Zero is contradicting and disregarding lore, they're like star level and MFTL for blitzing Omega faster than Dark Elf could react but that's it. By your logic Leviathan alone could have scratched armored Omega, yet both her and Fefnir were fodderized at the same time.

I never said PIS about the Guardians, I meant the Sol Titanion stage, you're misunderstanding my quotes. That doesn't make sense to me, characters with planet level stats can job or hold back hard enough to not kill humans. Would you actually give guys like Manchester Black planet level durability for surviving non lethal slaps from guys like Superman?

That only confirms my suspicions even further, X7 is completely out of the picture and Axl's absence proves it further. If you can find solar system feats before X7 then I'll let you be.

To be fair, the counters aren't getting anywhere either. Look, I will leave the pages intact if that's what's eating you, just know that they can be taken apart in a debate.

 

[Executor_N0]

The connection to games after the Megaman X5 comes directly into the Megaman ZX Advent, the saga that continues the story of Megaman Zero. The games from X6 to X8 are still valid for the other games due to the presence of Model A that confirms Axl's existence in this story.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Clyde

You're acting like the Guardians never posed any threat to Zero. Yes, he proved their superior, but they are a legitimate threat to him throughout the series. Even if Zero is unwilling to kill them, the fact that he simply can't just incapacitate them in an instant and move on is indicative of the fact that they are relatively close to him.

There's a 10^20 times difference between Solar System level and Planet level. This sort of downgrade is utterly ridiculous given their story presence and the fact that they can even damage Zero's original body.

Again, the X and Zero series have better feats than tanking the effects of an artificial sun (which is actually only around Multi-City Block level).

The difference in the Manchester Black example is the fact that Superman was explicitly holding back to simply beat Black and not kill him. All of the Guardians are coming at Zero to kill and can cross swords with him. If he were that much stronger, even if he was holding back, he'd break them like toothpicks if we went by your statistics.

Again, the events of Mega Man ZX Advent show that A-Trans, an ability first developed through Axl, is present in the Zero timeline.

Fiction isn't 100% consistent. We already have Planet level and Star feats from other black hole type weapons. It's more than consistent enough to warrant this kind of scaling.

If the changes aren't accepted you are not allowed to make them. That counts as vandalism and is a banable offense.

 

[BruceTheBatman]

I feel like I'm e only one these days who thinks Zero survived :/

Also, like Reppu said, the Guardians aren't Zeros equal, but they are in the same league as they can keep up with and da,age him

 

[Clyde_McReady]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_84NGbHyWuE

Man, just read, 9:15. I'll make it easier for you "You're no match for him, leave."

That's all the evidence I need to break yours off. Copy X had their powers combined and Zero straight up called him weak.

Are you even paying attention? Zero didn't tank the artifical sun, he literally dies after seconds of exposure, lol. Zero characters were all objectively weaker than in X saga, Ciel said Zero could die from water pressure alone.

You're being paranoid, I already said I won't change anything unless I get votes in my favor that trump yours. So far I have a kudo so it's not enough. Though I will make a debate between Vile and the Guardians just to prove my point. The A trans is irrelevant unless Axl is used. By your logic BattleNetwork is canon since it brings the Cyber Space.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Do not quote large blocks of text.

 

[Clyde_McReady]

Okay then.

 

[Clyde_McReady]

I feel like I'm e only one these days who thinks Zero survived :/
Also, like Reppu said, the Guardians aren't Zeros equal, but they are in the same league as they can keep up with and da,age him

You and I both. Mostly because to me and most followers the series ended at X8. Or Zero 3 at most.

And while I get you, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhZiy_tsnd0

That's how hard Omega crapped on the guardians. 7:36 "The two of us fighting together, and not a scratch."

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

To be fair a 4-B can still stomp another 4-B. The 4-B gap is massive.

 

[Clyde_McReady]

^True that.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Clyde

As Dragon pointed out, Solar System levle is one of our widest tiers. It's entirely possible for a stronger 4-B character to easily defeat a weaker 4-B and be in the same tier.

It does not remotely resemble the kind of downgrade you are proposing though.

 

[Clyde_McReady]

Except that my argumemt is based on the timeline division, which you still haven't debunked. X7 and X8 are non factors until you show more solid evidence than a couple of attacks.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Clyde

Capcom never addressed the timeline division nor did it ever acknowledge the two as two separate timelines.

The fact that A-Trans exists in ZX Advent when it was never mentioned in Zero is proof of this.

We can't assume that they're two separate timelines if there's no official source indicating otherwise.

Capcom has only acknowledged two separate timelines: Classic-X-Zero-ZX-Legends and Battle Network-Starforce.

As such, we can only treat things as though Zero immediately follows the final X games rather than have an arbitrarily branched off timeline.

Capcom dictates things, not Inafune.

 

[BruceTheBatman]

@Reppuzan

There's technically at least 3, since Apollo Flame kills everyone in a different reality where everything else happens the same until Le Mu kills Geo/Omega-Xis

 

[Reppuzan]

@Bruce

Fair enough. But still, as far as we know, Zero follows the X series until Capcom says otherwise.

 

[BruceTheBatman]

Of course, just pointing that out.

The Zero series is like 100 years past Command Misison which is an unknown period of time after X8 (Likely a long time since no one assumes Sigma or even Lumine), btw, Clyde.

 

[Clyde_McReady]

So A trans being brought back counts as evidence? By that logic I could say the cyber space in Battle Network is the same as in Zero and proves that Battle Network is a sequel, with Zero. EXE being a mind wiped ghost version of the real thing. At least they dropped his name, while Axl's is not and Model A was probably based on Albert himself. Does that work for you?

 

[BruceTheBatman]

... Wut?

Well, actually, that's a pretty good theory, so pat yourself on the back.


But it is not official, this is derailing the thread. Please stop.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Clyde

Don't take things out of context.

Zero and Zero.EXE are two fundamentally different beings. Zero was a robot built by the Classic verison of Dr. Wily while Zero.EXE was designed by The Professor as a virus.

Spewing nonsense like that is not making your point stronger.

Even if the Model was named "Model Albert" the fact that A-Trans exists is an uncanny reference to the X Timeline.

Like I said, Inafune does not dictate the timeline, Capcom does. Using Inafune's vision for the series when Capcom has not accepted it does not mean that your argument is canon.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Clyde

I also need to point out that Battle Network is an entirely different timeline since Dr. Light developed the Internet and the Cyber World instead of focusing on robotics. Heck, it wasn't even Doctor Light, it was Tadashi Hikari.

So your example is moot.

 

[BruceTheBatman]

Honestly @Reppu, I don't get why people in general say these things regarding the Mega Man Series. I've personally never found the series hard to follow :/

The Zero series has tons of callbacks to the X series and even some for the Classic series, which always made it easier for me to follow.

But anyway, @clyde, this is not Fanfiction.Net, Battle Network isn't a branching timeline, it's a reboot of MM.

 

[Clyde_McReady]

... Wut?
Well, actually, that's a pretty good theory, so pat yourself on the back.


But it is not official, this is derailing the thread. Please stop.

Why stop? Reppuzan saying that Inafune isn't in charge is fallacy because he was the only consistent developer. He does realize the rest of Capcom don't give a damn about the series or it's canon, right? And he also knows that Capcom isn't a man reading the stories but rather a coalition of greedy guys who disrespect their own mascots, right? And no, Zero had only three callbacks to X: X and Zero themselves, Maverick wars and Eurasya. Notice a pattern? NONE OF IT PROVES X7 AND X8 HAPPENED THERE!

 

[Clyde_McReady]

@Clyde
Don't take things out of context.

Zero and Zero.EXE are two fundamentally different beings. Zero was a robot built by the Classic verison of Dr. Wily while Zero.EXE was designed by The Professor as a virus.

Spewing nonsense like that is not making your point stronger.

Even if the Model was named "Model Albert" the fact that A-Trans exists is an uncanny reference to the X Timeline.

Like I said, Inafune does not dictate the timeline, Capcom does. Using Inafune's vision for the series when Capcom has not accepted it does not mean that your argument is canon.

Doesn't help you either since Capcom killed off Megaman. The absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence, you're just speaking for them so I don't have to debunk your precious profiles. It's not working since there's still Zero (see what I did there?) proof of X7 and X8 being canon to Zero.

 

[Reppuzan]

@Clyde

But Capcom owns the character, not Inafune. They dictate how the series works, not the other way around.

Zero would obviously not have any references to Axl because of the fact that it was developed and released before X7 and X8. You're arguing things that happen because of developmental cycles rather than actual contradictions in canon.

 

[Clyde_McReady]

But you know, I am getting off rail. This is about the guardians. Actual canon disproves the Guardians being Solar System level. (Sigh) Omega's explosion pretty much disintegrated them. Was Omega's death explosion Solar System level? NO. Why? Because in the underground in which they fought, any sort of Kilofoe level of destruction would have at least shaken earth, if not blown it up. The Guardians didn't tank that, they died, so let them rest in peace. I concede, you can keep your pages and we can agree to disagree. Thread