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Lord of the Rings revisions

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Tyranno223 said:
Regarding Eru and his "thoughts"/the Ainur

Wording wise, they are offspring of Eru's thought, thus Eru's thoughts given life. They can do nothing that Eru himself does not permit, not even Melkor, with Eru saying "‘Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite."

"There was Eru, the One, who in Arda is called Ilúvatar; and he made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made." - The Silmarillion: AINULINDALË

"In the beginning Eru, the One, who in the Elvish tongue is named Ilúvatar, made the Ainur of his thought..." - The Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA

"Manwë and Melkor were brethren in the thought of Ilúvatar." - The Silmarillion: VALAQUENTA

Note: This quote is just a literal example of the Ainur as offspring of Eru's thought. As Eru thought the two as siblings, they thus are.

Moreover, other writings imply that, while the Ainur are "independent beings" with a free will, they are in many ways also extensions of Eru's mind. However, this is less certain.

"But it is also used more vaguely of things arising in the mind or entering the mind (sanar) which the Eldar regarded as sometimes the result of deep reflection (often proceeding in sleep) and sometimes of actual messages or influences on the mind – from other minds, including the greater minds of the Valar and so indirectly from Eru." - Nature of Middle-Earth: Notes on Órë


That's pretty much what I was trying to make clear. The universe Eru created in Low 2-C, and said universe is sustained in his thoughts. Hence a 4d creation is sustained/created as thought
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Tyranno223 said:
On a sidenote, Tolkien's conception of Eru as author seems to go a step further than I realised.

He wrote this in Letter 153
"We differ entirely about the nature of the relation of sub-creation to Creation. I should have said that liberation "from the channels the creator is known to have used already" is the fundamental function of "sub-creation", a tribute to the infinity of His potential variety [...] I am not a metaphysician; but I should have thought it a curious metaphysics — there is not one but many, indeed potentially innumerable ones — that declared the channels known (in such a finite corner as we have any inkling of) to have been used, are the only possible ones, or efficacious, or possibly acceptable to and by Him!" - Letter 153

In response to a comment from Peter Hastings regarding the reincarnation of Tolkien's Elves
"God has not used that device in any of the creations of which we have knowledge, and it seems to me to be stepping beyond the position of a sub-creator to produce it as an actual working thing, because a sub-creator, when dealing with the relations between creator and created, should use those channels which he knows the creator to have used already"

Essentially, Tolkien defends his non-orthodox (Catholic) writing (thus the world of the Legendarium) as an exploration of the infinite potential of his conception of the Christian God.

His letters also repeatedly equate Eru with the Christian God.

"So God and the 'angelic' gods..."

"The Valar had no real answer to this monstrous rebellion — for the Children of God were not under their ultimate jurisdiction: they were not allowed to destroy them, or coerce them with any 'divine' display of the powers they held over the physical world. They appealed to God"

"So while God (Eru) was a datum of good*"
- Letter 156

Now, while I'm not going to get too far into this debate (as a Christian myself, I know delving too deep into this for a vs board is just asking for trouble). It is possible that Thedent had a point with a potentially 2-A conception of Eru.

I am NOT asserting this claim yet (moreover, it's unnecessary if Low 1-C goes through, although it might add weight), but I will look further into this, as this is an angle I have not considered before.
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@Ultima_Reality @KingPin0422 @DontTalkDT @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Andytrenom @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz

I personally think that Low 1-C seems warranted for Eru Illuvatar here, based on a qualitative reality > fiction difference, and Elizhaa and Pain_to12 agree with me, but Qawsedf234 appears to disagree so far, and he is usually also very sensible, so I would appreciate further help with properly evaluating this. Thanks in advance for any help.
 
Tyranno223 said:
My opinion won't matter too much given I'm not a knowledgeable member on anything above tier 2, but I'm pretty convinced by tier Low 1-C

Again, I'm against the presented arguments for 2-A, although I'm looking into it myself.
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Does Eru's profile need to be upgraded now?
 
I want to ask. Does eru also include getting beyond dimensional existence logically though he transced space time continuum as a whole and he also surpasses all of creation.
 
I do not think that author status automatically overlaps with higher dimensions.
 
No. Our staff and knowledgeable members get to evaluate it.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Ontological just means that A relies on B to exist. That doesn't have anything to do with being Low 1-C. A higher level of Tier 2 can accommodate a bunch of High 3-As or Low 2-Cs.
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This is a different case
The entire universe is a musical note to the Ainur while the Ainur are parts of Ea thoughts.
That’s R>F
 
Being sustained by thoughts is not the same as R>F. Ontology still is ultimately defined that things rely on other things to exist and the only 2-A statement is about Eru.

I'm not seeing more than 2A for it. Low 1-C just seems like a highball.
 
Not just sustained by thoughts, actually being fictional thoughts within the mind of a god.
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Being sustained by thoughts is not the same as R>F. Ontology still is ultimately defined that things rely on other things to exist and the only 2-A statement is about Eru.

I'm not seeing more than 2A for it. Low 1-C just seems like a highball.
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It's not just sustained by thought, the wording implies that the world is very much within his mind.

The Ainur being mere extensions of his thought (albeit ones with personality and will).
 
Qawsedf234 said:
Ontology and the wording implies existence spring from its mind, but I don't see it as them existing solely within it.
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(Eä, “the World that Is”) “coheres” (< Latin co-haerere, literally ‘stick together’) in Eru’s thought
+
The statement that Eru "holds the whole of Eä in thought (by which it coheres).”

Quite plainly assert the Eä and creation is within the mind of Eru, which thereby allows it to remain in existence. The entire universe is held within his thought and thus mind.
 
This are the literal meaning of the quotes
1. They are offspring of his thought
2. Made the Ainur of his thoughts
3. They are all brothers in his thoughts.

So I guess it can mean they spring from his thoughts not that they exists within it.
Tyranno223 said:
(Eä, “the World that Is”) “coheres” (< Latin co-haerere, literally ‘stick together’) in Eru’s thought
+
The statement that Eru "holds the whole of Eä in thought (by which it coheres).”

Quite plainly assert the Eä and creation is within the mind of Eru, which thereby allows it to remain in existence. The entire universe is held within his thought and thus mind.
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Can you send the contexts of this quote?
 
Pain_to12 said:
This are the literal meaning of the quotes
1. They are offspring of his thought
2. Made the Ainur of his thoughts
3. They are all brothers in his thoughts.
Click to expand...
They are born of his mind, but the wording of "brothers in his thoughts" implies they are still within his mind + there is another line which posits that understanding the mind of the Ainur thereby leads to understanding of Eru, hinting at a continued link
Pain_to12 said:
Can you send the contexts of this quote?
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He is outside Eä but holds the whole of Eä in thought (by which it coheres)." - Nature of Middle-Earth: The Primal Impulse.

"“He [Eru] is outside Eä but holds the whole of Eä in thought (by which it coheres).”" - Nature of Middle-Earth: METAPHYSICAL AND THEOLOGICAL THEMES

Tolkien’s particular statement here, that the whole of material and temporal existence (Eä, “the World that Is”) “coheres” (< Latin co-haerere, literally ‘stick together’) in Eru’s thought, also clearly echoes Scripture, in particular Col. 1:17: “He [Christ] is before all things, and in Him all things hold together”.

Eru holds all of Eä, the material universe, within his mind and thought. There isn't much more context.

Edit: the brothers line is in past tense, so I'll concede there. I'll check over this point when I get back home.
 
For the time being I'll concede on the Ainur point, but I've found further support for Eru being above reality

"...that when the Creator
made it real (that is, gave it the secondary reality, subordinate to his own, which we call primary
reality, and so in that hierarchy on the same plane with themselves) they desired to enter into it,
from the beginning of its 'realization'." - Letter 200

Eru's reality is above Eä, which supports Eru's status as transcendent to the universe.

Edit: Just to make it clear, the universe is a 4d structure, with time and space repeatedly being mentioned in reference to it.

"on a brief episode in History, and on a small part of our Middle-earth, surrounded by the glimmer of
limitless extensions in time and space." - Letter 328
 
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On a side note, I've found a lot of stuff for the Ainur once this is done, with it appearing that the LOTR universe may indeed by infinite in size, or at least potentially infinite.
 
Dread said:
Low 1-C seems fine as long as r>f is proven to be qualitatively superior to low 2-C (or, as you call it, 2-A if it is proven to be infinite)
Click to expand...
So far these are the main things.

Multiple lines state that Eru holds the universe in his mind, or thought.

The universe is said to be on a lower hierarchy to the state of reality Eru resides in.

Eru is referred to as the (seemingly literal) author of the world of the Legendarium.
 
Dread said:
Seems fine, but what are the opposing arguments? Is it because the “mind” or his “thought” is not literal?
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The main point of contention is that.

One point that has been refuted for now is that the Ainur (beings who have a 4-d nature) were part of Eru's thought. After looking further they're rather born from his thoughts, rather than literally being them.

The main contention now is whether Eä is literally within the mind of Eru.
 
Tyranno223 said:
Poin utama pertengkaran adalah itu.

Satu hal yang telah dibantah untuk saat ini adalah bahwa Ainur (makhluk yang memiliki sifat 4 dimensi) adalah bagian dari pemikiran Eru. Setelah melihat lebih jauh, mereka agak lahir dari pikirannya, daripada secara harfiah menjadi mereka.

Perdebatan utama sekarang adalah apakah Eä secara harfiah ada di dalam pikiran Eru.
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I think the most important thing is that Eru has surpassed all of creation even Existence Eru is 5-D in R>F.
 
Antvasima said:
@Ultima_Reality @KingPin0422 @DontTalkDT @SomebodyData @Celestial_Pegasus @Wokistan @Andytrenom @ByAsura @Sir_Ovens @Starter_Pack @Abstractions @LordGriffin1000 @Colonel_Krukov @SamanPatou @GyroNutz

I personally think that Low 1-C seems warranted for Eru Illuvatar here, based on a qualitative reality > fiction difference, and Elizhaa and Pain_to12 agree with me, but Qawsedf234 appears to disagree so far, and he is usually also very sensible, so I would appreciate further help with properly evaluating this. Thanks in advance for any help.
Click to expand...
Sorry but this is beyond me, I have no knowledge on the series and I doubt my opinion would be worth much as a whole.
 
Listing which members that support a Low 1-C upgrade, and which ones that do not.
 
Antvasima said:
Listing which members that support a Low 1-C upgrade, and which ones that do not.
Click to expand...
Hi, Antvasima, you are going on vacation, we should do a vote, if you don't have one, maybe some of the members here will be bothered and you don't have enough support, how about that? although members here experienced?
 
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