Lucifer (DC Comics) vs. Perpetua

[Catalyst75]

Less an official battle between them and more a topic of discussion.

While I have a personal interpretation that the Presence and his sons were the ones responsible for reshaping the DC Multiverse from Perpetua's iteration, it has been on my mind a while how Perpetua might scale. Does she scale to Lucifer, or is he to be considered superior to her?

While Lucifer is more powerful than the Endless, we know the one crucial weakness is his power is that it is based around manipulation, shaping Michael's Power into Suns while Gabriel imposes form and pattern. On the other hand, Perpetua is depicted as creating the DC Multiverse, the Monitors Three, and all the Forces within the Multiverse.

NOTE: It is an interesting contrast when you think about it, but not the topic of discussion.

 

[Luck100]

With the new cosmology of DC multiverse the Sixth Dimension is the top tier of DC cosmology. With that logic and Hell and Heaven been inside of Perpetua multiverse.

Perpetua should win, even her sons could.

 

[Lord_of_Apokolips]

Perpetua wins She created GEB, so superior to Lucifer.

Note: GEB is part of a race called the "otherkinds", present in a sphere of the dark multiverse, it is no longer the darkness that precedes the creation .

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I've been under the impression that The Presence/The Archangels' creation is the wider Omniverse admnistered by the Judges of the Source when reading that storyline. That's just me though.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

I've been under the impression that The Presence/The Archangels' creation is the wider Omniverse admnistered by the Judges of the Source when reading that storyline. That's just me though.

You can argue that Lucifer>The Source because when he went to the edge of everything near The Source, he straight up ignored it

 

[AndrewBennet]

Perpetua got owned by the judges of the source . At her peak lvl she would be around Spectres lvl . Lucifer is only second to god .

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Perpetua got sealed by Lex Luthor and Brainiac

 

[Catalyst75]

Perpetua got owned by the judges of the source . At her peak lvl she would be around Spectres lvl . Lucifer is only second to god .

You're making the assumption that particular representative of the Judges of the Source is "equal" to the Spectre, rather than something vastly superior. Spectre is bound to the DC Multiverse; the Judges oversee an "omniverse" of Multiverses.

 

[LordUrien935]

Lucifer along with Michael was stated to be second only to The Presence. Lucifer should definitely be far above Perpetua.

 

[Luck100]

Im starting to thinking that lucifer is no more second in the multiverse below presence. Their realms are in the map of the multiversity in the sphere of the gods whose are below the 6 dimension of DC multiversity.

We have only to wait the end of the saga and see the downgrade.

 

[AndrewBennet]

Perpetua got owned by the judges of the source . At her peak lvl she would be around Spectres lvl . Lucifer is only second to god .

You're making the assumption that particular representative of the Judges of the Source is "equal" to the Spectre, rather than something vastly superior. Spectre is bound to the DC Multiverse; the Judges oversee an "omniverse" of Multiverses.

I'm referring to 1A key for the Spectre . Lucifer also scales above Night and Time who predates all of the Omniverse

 

[Catalyst75]

I think we should wait before we make any big assumptions like all that. Just the concept of an official 'greater omniverse' has big implications and, beforehand, the Presence and his sons were always assumed to have been the creators of the DC Cosmology. So, I think the Presence and his sons being the ones who reshaped the DC Multiverse after Perpetua was imprisoned is more likely.

Moreover, the Lucifer run talks about other Creations, other Makers. If we take both Perpetua and the Presence to be Makers, the two could roughly be equal to one another, even if there is reasonable doubt, given the Source was stated to be, well, the "source" of Perpetua's power.

 

[DarkHunter89]

Im starting to thinking that lucifer is no more second in the multiverse below presence. Their realms are in the map of the multiversity in the sphere of the gods whose are below the 6 dimension of DC multiversity.
We have only to wait the end of the saga and see the downgrade.

Yeah same.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Lucifer literally goes on to create his own equivalent of creation. So I don't know why you're implying he's weak because he was an angel from heaven whilst The Sixth Dimension transcends that. Lucifer also transcends the Godsphere and has travelled around beyond the Sixth Dimension into the Monitor Mind.

 

[DarkHunter89]

Lucifer literally goes on to create his own equivalent of creation. So I don't know why you're implying he's weak because he was an angel from heaven whilst The Sixth Dimension transcends that. Lucifer also transcends the Godsphere and has travelled around beyond the Sixth Dimension into the Monitor Mind.

Lucifer created a universe not a multiverse. It has been called a universe more often than it has been called a multiverse, also can we update his article? It's not that Death "has no claim" over him, it's that he wasn't dead yet, that she couldn't take him away.

 

[DarkHunter89]

Also while he burned a few pages of Destinys book, he was still bound to Destiny. He even knew what would happen after he burned the pages;

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D-hfiJ0WsAE0ZDD?format=jpg&name=large

 

[DarkHunter89]

Lucifer literally goes on to create his own equivalent of creation. So I don't know why you're implying he's weak because he was an angel from heaven whilst The Sixth Dimension transcends that. Lucifer also transcends the Godsphere and has travelled around beyond the Sixth Dimension into the Monitor Mind.

Do you have any scan for that? Just asking.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

He created a multiverse. It doesn't matter of it's called universe. It's called his creation and it has multiple realms including a heaven. So clearly it isn't a sole universe, that's just one way of saying his creation. It's the same where it's stated Destiny has "the universe" in his book when he actualy has all creation.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6aFq7WFA1Yk/VkILXwVPNJI/AAAAAAAAO54/9L4ifaAIrFU/s0-Ic42/006.jpg

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

It doesn't matter if he's bound by destiny thats only because hes part of the Presence's plan not because Destiny is more powerful. Lucifer is constantly stayed in vertigo to be second only to God and possibly Michael.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Also the Overvoid is beyond the Sixth Dimension. So Lucifer went beyond it retroactively.

 

[DarkHunter89]

It doesn't matter if he's bound by destiny thats only because hes part of the Presence's plan not because Destiny is more powerful. Lucifer is constantly stayed in vertigo to be second only to God and possibly Michael.

Where am I saying that Destiny is more powerful? All I'm saying is that the page should be updated, he's not "beyond" destiny when there are showings that directly disprove that.

 

[DarkHunter89]

He created a multiverse. It doesn't matter of it's called universe. It's called his creation and it has multiple realms including a heaven. So clearly it isn't a sole universe, that's just one way of saying his creation. It's the same where it's stated Destiny has "the universe" in his book when he actualy has all creation.
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6aFq7WFA1Yk/VkILXwVPNJI/AAAAAAAAO54/9L4ifaAIrFU/s0-Ic42/006.jpg

Expect heaven isn't a different universe, it's like you said a realm and not an entire universe. And while the creation is called "a universe" it has been proven that the DCU is a multiverse, now the only thing that even implies that Lucifer made a universe, is that there are different realms.

And having different realms isn't the definition of a multiverse.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

I mean going out of creation into the Overvoid is away from the influence of Destiny because the Basanos get power from Destiny abd when thry went into Lucifers creation they had no power.

 

[DarkHunter89]

Also the Overvoid is beyond the Sixth Dimension. So Lucifer went beyond it retroactively.

The problem is that while he did that, he also only did it after he talked with his dad and because the Presence basically always made it so that he could one day go into the Overvoid. It doesn't mean that he's above that, it means that he's able to travel beyond the sixth dimension.

Tell me if Superman is able to travel beyond the universe, doesn't it make him above it?

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Heaven is a realm within his creation. His "universe". Which already debunks it being a universe. His creation is not a sole universe.

He's stated to have created a multiverse and his own creation. The term "universe" refers to his creation. It's been used to refer to Gods own creation multiple times. Lucifer himself has called his creation "world" or "realm" before. So there shouldn't be any doubt.

 

[DarkHunter89]

Heaven is a realm within his creation. His "universe". Which already debunks ot being a universe. His creation is not a sole universe.
He's stated to have created a multiverse and his own creation. The term "universe" refers to his creation. It's been used to refer to Gods own creation multiple times. Lucifer himself has called his creation "world" or "realm" before. So there shouldn't be any doubt.

Realm is the same as a dimension, according to you having a universe with a bunch of dimensions means that it's a multiverse, which I don't agree with. Because for me a multiverse is a bunch, or even infinitely many universes rolled up together. Which isn't really what his universe is, unless you consider a realm an entire seperate universe.

But even then, he created a multiverse that contains three universes. How is that impressive for a being that is supposed to be the second most powerful in existence?

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

No having a creation being called his own version and being called a multiverse multiple times is akin to Gods own creation where various terms are used to refer to it. It being called a universe doesn't mean it's one universe floating around in the void. Again refer to Destiny example.

A universe, a realm whatever. If each are at least universe-sized realms and there are many then it's a multiverse. Assuming he created a sole universe when its called and said to be a creation and multiverse by Lucifer himself doesn't make sense.

Also its his equivalent of creation not a few realms.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/36657/1174994-lucifermultiverse.jpg

and The Presence taught him how

https://m.imgur.com/NOyEdDY

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

The Presence created him to be that powerful. That's why he could go there. He thought going there would completely free him of the influence of the Presence. The Sixth Dimension is the highest realm of existence and the Overvoid is beyond that.

 

[DarkHunter89]

No having a creation being called his own version and being called a multiverse multiple times is akin to Gods own creation where various terms are used to refer to it. It being called a universe doesn't mean it's one universe floating around in the void. Again refer to Destiny example.
A universe, a realm whatever. If each are at least universe-sized realms and there are many then it's a multiverse. Assuming he created a sole universe when its called and said to be a creation and multiverse by Lucifer himself doesn't make sense.

Also its his equivalent of creation not a few realms.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/3/36657/1174994-lucifermultiverse.jpg

You whip out one scan that shows Lucifer saying that he has made a multiverse. While in this scans;

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11132/111321350/6014010-4728175-scan0043ds2.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/square_avatar/11132/111321350/6014011-4728176-scan0045mu4.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11132/111321350/6014012-4728177-scan0047qx4.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/square_avatar/11132/111321350/6014013-4728178-scan0048bx8.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/square_avatar/11132/111321350/6014014-4728179-picture004dt7.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11132/111321350/6014015-4728180-scan0038ox1.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/square_avatar/11132/111321350/6014016-4728181-scan0039nv1.jpg

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/square_avatar/11132/111321350/6014017-4728182-scan0042xt1.jpg

It's called a universe and not a multiverse. Also according to the writer;

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/u...321350/5915239-Безымянныsadasdsadйsssssss.png

for him a multiverse isn't the core definition of what a multiverse is. A multiverse is a collection of different, entire build universes. It's not one universe with a bunch of different realms for most writers.

And again even if you're 100 percent right it's still nothing compared to what other 1-A beings have done.

 

[DarkHunter89]

Also the statement that "death has no claim over him" should be removed from his page. And that he is "outside of destiny" should also be removed.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Again look at the Destiny example and even as I tap on the first example it directly implies that it's a creation. "a new universe" with "himself incharge". A new universe refers to him creating his own creation outside of core creation and "himself in charge" makes him a creator.

Even that writer he's talking about creation but uses the term universe. Universes don't have layers to existence normally they make up a layer to existence. Either way what he says has no jurisdiction because the actual story>WoG.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

So clearly they don't mean universe in the conventional sense

 

[DarkHunter89]

If we want to go even further, he also didn't create the universe with Michael, he merely shaped it and even that is very vague because the Presence doesn't say "you will create the universe together". What it did say was following:

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11114/111149763/5590350-4132241615-Lucif.jpg

So Michael is the one that releases the stuff creation is made from (aka matter), Lucifer weaves it into suns and or other stars and then Gabriel "imposes a pattern". So if anything Gabriel was the one that is implied to have created the laws of existence.

Add to that, that there's a panel that even talks about how Lucifer has never made a universe before. So no, he didn't create shit in the DCU, all he did was make a bunch of stars and also shaped some matter, all while Michael provided the source for it and Gabriel imposed patterns upon the world.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

He cannot create that's the only reason why he needed to kill Michael. That only means he can't output his means for creation. He can only shape from what exists. As for the laws that was Lucifer. https://m.imgur.com/rfc8GOA

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Death exists throughout the Overvoid I think theres Death for every creation. I think there needs to be a proper thread on Death's nature. Lucifer himself says everythings dies in the end. So I'm inclinee to agree on that.

 

[DarkHunter89]

Again look at the Destiny example and even as I tap on the first example it directly implies that it's a creation. "a new universe" with "himself incharge". A nee universe refers to him creating his own creation outside of core creation and "himself in charge" makes him a creator.
Even that writer he's talking about creation but uses the term universe. Universes don't have layers to existence normally they make up a layer to existence. Either way what he says has no jurisdiction because the actual story>WoG.

But a universe does actually have different dimensions. And where does this "different layers" come from? You first talked about how realms can be universes, although the definition of a realm is a region that is ruled by someone or at best another word for domain.

Like I said, even if you're right, my original points stand. There are things that should be removed from his page because they are simply wrong and or taken out of context.

 

[DarkHunter89]

Death exists throughout the Overvoid I think theres Death for every creation. I think there needs to be a proper thread on Death's nature. Lucifer himself says everythings dies in the end. So I'm inclinee to agree on that.

Hey, I'm glad if we can agree on something . Although I think it's less that there's a death for every creation and more that there's only one Death. So Death within the DCU is everywhere where something dies. And everything will die at one point. I guess the only thing that'll never die is the supreme being of the DCU which would be the Writer.

 

[The_Unknown_Warrior1]

I can see Destiny bounding even Lucifer, since it is implied that the book (which has no seperate existence from Destiny) is the script of The Presence's plan which is something Lucifer is bounded by, not even Michael could forcefully take away the book

 

[DarkHunter89]

I can see Destiny bounding even Lucifer, since it is implied that the book (which has no seperate existence from Destiny) is the script of The Presence's plan which is something Lucifer is bounded by, not even Michael could forcefully take away the book

Yes, so someone should remove the "is not bound by destiny" that is written on his page.

 

[DarkHunter89]

And Lucifer himself said that Destiny is a side-effect of the Presence and not of his doing.