Magic Formulas are not IM 2

[Dark_Soul20189]

This one is a quick one.

Verse - Maou Gakuin
Page - Magic Physiology

Here is the thing that currently grants the entire verse IM 2

Magic & Information Manipulation (Type 2; At the core of every spell there is an existing theoretical and practical formula that allows it to function. A magical blueprint that determines the function of the magic. In addition, altering the spell formula changes the properties of the magic itself)

As we can see in the scans the entirety of the Type 2 comes from it being a magic formula, and that simply is not enough to qualify for Type 2.


From the Information manipulation page on Type 2

Summary​

Information Manipulation is the power to control, alter, and even destroy information itself. A vast variety of effects can be achieved using this ability, from gaining knowledge or altering what people know to warping reality itself. Note that Information Analysis and Data Manipulation are considered separate abilities.

Types​

1. Knowledge: These characters can manipulate information as the medium of knowledge as opposed to just manipulating what a specific person knows, which would be considered Mind Manipulation. Characters with this ability can, for example, destroy information on a subject and by that make it inherently unknowable. Other examples of uses would be to prevent information from leaving an area, making it so that those outside can't gain knowledge of what is happening inside, or altering information to change what people know about the subject into something else.
2. Fundamental: These characters can manipulate information that serves as a fundamental building block of reality. This information is shown to compose reality similar to how data underlies a video game world, code defines the rules of a simulation or in a fashion equally fundamental to these examples. This may allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality. The ability can come on many levels of potency. The possible uses range from being the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities to rewriting information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.

Click to expand...

We see no mention of any information in the scans presented for this, but only how each Magic Formula is a different spell... Yeah, that's literally how all magic works...

And if you wanna argue for it, you need much more evidence than this, with them at least mentioning "information," other than just different magical formulas having different results (Spells), since this is no different than every other magic from every other verse that uses chants or symbols for their own magic, where the different chats/symbols results in a different result (spell).

So yeah, to conclude, Magic formulas lack any correlation towards being fundamental information

TLTR - IM 2 will be removed since fundamental information does not indicate actually existing for magic since it's just a normal magic formula.


Votes
Agree - @DontTalkDT, @Ryu-Strongest-Fighter-in-Universe, @Mr. Bambu, @GrathOfLux (Agrees with DT and Bambu), @Voidnether, @Eseseso, @Theglassman12, @CloverDragon03 (Agrees with Bambu, Lux, and DT), @Ghostimuscrime, @FinePoint, @Damage3245,
Disagree -
Neutral - @Success0906 (agrees, but will wait for more knowledgeable members before voting),

Notes

• Talked about this with @DontTalkDT on Discord, and he agreed this was not enough to be IM 2. (Feel free to ping him to confirm)
• Related thread (Edit)

Please try to keep this thread civilized... Yes, this includes all sides, we don't want anyone toxic here, so try your best to keep unnecessary remarks away from the thread.

 

[Ryu-Strongest-Fighter-in-Universe]

Agree
Lol when this got accepted as type 2?

 

[Deleted member 40129]

Checks out. Will wait for knowledgeable members, though.

 

[Ryu-Strongest-Fighter-in-Universe]

Checks out. Will wait for knowledgeable members, though.

Sorry but this ain't even near to the explanation of the fundamental aspect of information. It just said the demon sword can cut through the spell formula. The speed formula has two types: theoretical and practical. The formula allows the magic to function
What part of it was about the informations that made reality or something else about fundamental aspect? Lol it isn't even near

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Sorry but this ain't even near to the explanation of the fundamental aspect of information. It just said the demon sword can cut through the spell formula. The speed formula has two types: theoretical and practical. The formula allows the magic to function
What part of it was about the informations that made reality or something else about fundamental aspect? Lol it isn't even near

Please don't be toxic, He meant that he agreed with the removal of IM 2, but is waiting for the supporters to see if they have anything to add that will make the Information type 2 stay. So, to summarize, he is waiting to see if the Supporters have any more evidence for IM 2 for magic.

 

[Ryu-Strongest-Fighter-in-Universe]

Checks out. Will wait for knowledgeable members, though.

Sorry dude. Please accept my apologies

 

[Deleted member 40129]

Sorry dude. Please accept my apologies

What happened? Why are you apologizing? We should not be derailing the thread, btw. Sorry for responding so poorly to your apology. Whatever it is you are apologizing for, it's alright.

 

[Ryu-Strongest-Fighter-in-Universe]

What happened? Why are you apologizing? We should not be derailing the thread, btw. Sorry for responding so poorly to your apology. Whatever it is you are apologizing for, it's alright.

Damn bro you're kind. Let's appreciate it

 

[Robo432343]

but magic in the verse is a fundamental building block of reality

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

but magic in the verse is a fundamental building block of reality

And where is the proof that it is "information"?

 

[Dog3352]

And where is the proof that it is "information"?

Literal formulas that are fundamental to the existence/use of spells, I do not think this falls into anything other than information.

Whether it's type 2 or not, I can't say.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

They are literally formulas, I don't think it fits something other than information.

The problem is not that they don't fit something else, but It doesn't fit Type 2 information in the first place, it doesn't even mention information.

 

[Dog3352]

The problem is not that they don't fit something else, but It doesn't fit Type 2 information in the first place, it doesn't even mention information.

Is there any criterion that says that to be info it needs something to be said to be information?

An example is the sources of spirits, they are info because they fit info, not because the word "info" is said.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Is there any criterion that says that to be info it needs something to be said to be information?

That is the first thing on the page.

Information Manipulation is the power to control, alter, and even destroy information itself.

We can not prove or confirm that Magic Formula's is "information", only that they are required to exist for spells, just like in every other magic verse.

 

[Dog3352]

That is the first thing on the page.


We can not prove or confirm that Magic Formula's is "information", only that they are required to exist for spells, just like in every other magic verse.

He says he destroy/create/alter a information, not that it is necessary to be called information to be information, many things fall into info without being called info.

MG spirits are an example, it is not about what it is called, but of fitting. Something like "literal formulas essential for the existence/use of spells" is definitely something that fits as information.

One of the "Possibles uses" is literally a description of what magic formulas are:

The possible uses range from being the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities to rewriting information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

He says he destroy/create/alter a information, not that it is necessary to be called information to be information, many things fall into info without being called info.

MG spirits are an example, it is not about what it is called, but of fitting.

Many things have been rejected just for not mentioning "information", also you are arguing that all verses that have a Chant/symbol or formula will be IM 2? So all magic will be given IM 2, since I have yet to see anything special about the Magic from Maou Gakuin.

Already had that talk with DT... Seems like we have to make this even clearer...

If it's just "fitting" that gives Spirits Information, then I may need to take a look at it afterward. But that is something to discuss at a later date...


Just so you know, We don't give out abilities just since they seem "fitting", but instead need proof of actually existing within the verse for that specific ability and actually be accurate and meet the abilities requirement, which this does not, to make things worse is that Type 2 information, is considered a metaphysical aspect. Something that shares a lot of similarities and similar properties with the other abilities in this class? So why is this considered just as information?

 

[Dog3352]

Many things have been rejected just for not mentioning "information", also you are arguing that all verses that have a Chant/symbol or formula will be IM 2? So all magic will be given IM 2, since I have yet to see anything special about the Magic from Maou Gakuin.

Already had that talk with DT... Seems like we have to make this even clearer...

If it's just "fitting" that gives Spirits Information, then I may need to take a look at it afterward. But that is something to discuss at a later date...


Just so you know, We don't give out abilities just since they seem "fitting", but instead need proof of actually existing within the verse for that specific ability and actually be accurate and meet the abilities requirement, which this does not, to make things worse is that Type 2 information, is considered a metaphysical aspect. Something that shares a lot of similarities and similar properties with the other abilities in this class? So why is this considered just as information?

Very sad that they have been refused by the lack of a word, but MGK fulfills all other requirements for Info 2 according to the description of the info manipulation page itself. And no, I do not plan to give any cosmology with magic circles or something info 2, simply magic formulas meet all requirements, whether others meet or not, this is a problem with themselves.

And this literally goes against what is in the Wiki description, VBW itself literally has one of the "possible uses" a description of what magical formulas are:

Fundamental: These characters can manipulate information that serves as a fundamental building block of reality. This information is shown to compose reality similar to how data underlies a video game world, code defines the rules of a simulation or in a fashion equally fundamental to these examples. This may allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality. The ability can come on many levels of potency. The possible uses range from being the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities to rewriting information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.

Magic formulas are formulas that change them will change the spell, destroying them will make the spell not used (exist), is a fundamental/essencel part to use magic, a part that exists in the "center" of each spell (a more "fundamental" part), which is exactly what info 2 asks in the description.

VBW does not refuse to give cm, info or any skill just because cosmology does not use the word of skill (such as cm and "concept", info and "information", etc.), since the important thing is to meet the criteria to be such ability.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Very sad that they have been refused by the lack of a word, but MGK fulfills all other requirements for Info 2 according to the description of the info manipulation page itself. And no, I do not plan to give any cosmology with magic circles or something info 2, simply magic formulas meet all requirements, whether others meet or not, this is a problem with themselves.

So you are arguing that it meets all the requirements for "information manipulation Type 2" but actually proving it's information?

And this literally goes against what is in the Wiki description, VBW itself literally has one of the "possible uses" a description of what magical formulas are:

Fundamental: These characters can manipulate information that serves as a fundamental building block of reality. This information is shown to compose reality similar to how data underlies a video game world, code defines the rules of a simulation or in a fashion equally fundamental to these examples. This may allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality. The ability can come on many levels of potency. The possible uses range from being the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities to rewriting information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.

Magic formulas are formulas that change them will change the spell, destroying them will make the spell not used (exist), is a fundamental/essencel part to use magic, a part that exists in the "center" of each spell (a more "fundamental" part), which is exactly what info 2 asks in the description.

.

This is literally what I just talked with DT about, Please read this

Thread 'Minor Information Manip. formulation improvement'

Jan 30, 2025

@Dark_Soul20189 brought up to me that there apparently is a common problem with the understanding of the Type 2 Info formulation going around.

I have not looked too deep into any of the example cases, but I figured we may as well make it more clear.

Basically, the problem is supposed to be that the line "For some it might just be the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities" is taken to mean that things like programmable spells are considered Type 2 Info, without considering that "These characters can manipulate information, which serves as fundamental building block of...

• DontTalkDT
• information manipulation
• Replies: 6
• Forum: Staff Discussion

• 

Also
Legit all magic stops working if you destroy what is casting it... This is true for literally all verses. So should this grant IM 2 for all magic and everything that is capable of destroying magic circles?

The answer is no, ALL MAGIC SPELLS FROM EVERY VERSE, REQUIRE SOME FORM OF MAGIC "SOURCE" AND IN 95% OF CASES THIS IS THE FORM OF AN CHANT OR SYMBOLS... and if you are capable of destroying this source it will stop the spell from working, this is true for all magic verses...

This would be considered "Power Nullification", not IM 2.

 

[Dog3352]

So you are arguing that it meets all the requirements for "information manipulation Type 2" but actually proving it's information?





This is literally what I just talked with DT about, Please read this

Thread 'Minor Information Manip. formulation improvement'

Jan 30, 2025

@Dark_Soul20189 brought up to me that there apparently is a common problem with the understanding of the Type 2 Info formulation going around.

I have not looked too deep into any of the example cases, but I figured we may as well make it more clear.

Basically, the problem is supposed to be that the line "For some it might just be the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities" is taken to mean that things like programmable spells are considered Type 2 Info, without considering that "These characters can manipulate information, which serves as fundamental building block of...

• DontTalkDT
• information manipulation
• Replies: 6
• Forum: Staff Discussion

• 

Also
Legit all magic stops working if you destroy what is casting it... This is true for literally all verses. So should this grant IM 2 for all magic and everything that is capable of destroying magic circles?

The answer is no, ALL MAGIC SPELLS FROM EVERY VERSE, REQUIRE SOME FORM OF MAGIC "SOURCE" AND IN 95% OF CASES THIS IS THE FORM OF AN CHANT OR SYMBOLS... and if you are capable of destroying this source it will stop the spell from working, this is true for all magic verses...

This would be considered "Power Nullification", not IM 2.

Basically, the problem is supposed to be that the line "For some it might just be the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities" is taken to mean that things like programmable spells are considered Type 2 Info, without considering that "These characters can manipulate information, which serves as fundamental building block of reality" is a non-optional prerequisite that requires evidence, which would not come from program-like spells being a thing alone.

Literally nothing that DT says in this CRT is something like magic formulas.

Magic formulas are fundamental aspects of spells, are literal formulas that exist in the center of each spell, modifying these formulas alters the spell, destroying the formula destroys the spell.

It's not any kind of "programmable spells", they are not even spells to start conversation.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Literally nothing that DT says in this CRT is something like magic formulas.

Magic formulas are fundamental aspects of spells, are literal formulas that exist in the center of each spell, modifying these formulas alters the spell, destroying the formula destroys the spell, are different things from the spell itself or even the magic circle itself.

It's not any kind of "programmable spells", they are not even spells to start conversation.

What you are doing is the exact thing that was supposed to prevent. I will quote what he said

They don't. You can't isolate one sentence of the definition as qualifying criteria while ignoring the rest of the definition.

This is exactly what you are doing right now.

 

[Dog3352]

What you are doing is the exact thing that was supposed to prevent. I will quote what he said

This is exactly what you are doing right now.

Fundamental: These characters can manipulate information that serves as a fundamental building block of reality. This information is shown to compose reality similar to how data underlies a video game world, code defines the rules of a simulation or in a fashion equally fundamental to these examples. This may allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality. The ability can come on many levels of potency. The possible uses range from being the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities to rewriting information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.

I think you are not reading properly.

Requirement 1: Being a "fundamental construction block of reality (or skill)"

Magic formulas meet this criterion, as they are fundamental formulas for the existence/use of the spell, existing in the center of each spell.

Requirement 2: As well as rewriting the data of a game would modify the game (Game Rules), modifying this information would make things for which information is essential/fundamental to modified.

Magic formulas also meet this criterion, since magic formulas are fundamental formulas that if they are modified would modify the spell itself.

Magic formulas follow exactly what info 2 asks.

 

[Arkenis]

Magic formulas meet this criterion, as they are fundamental formulas for the existence/use of the spell, existing in the center of each spell.

How does that mean its for reality and not just for the spell?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

This seems to be just straight up normal, bog standard magic jargon. I have no idea how this was accepted as Information Manipulation. Count me as an agree.

 

[Dog3352]

How does that mean its for reality and not just for the spell?

The "reality" is if info 2 is fundamental to all reality, in the case of a skill (such as magic), it is necessary that information is essential/fundamental to the ability (magic) itself, to which it is a criterion that the magic formula follows.

That's why this exists in the description of info 2:

The possible uses range from being the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities

 

[Mr. Bambu]

There's nothing manipulating information, though. It's like calling chemistry information manipulation, because chemistry follows the exact same premise- if you change the formula, you get a different result. This is a nothingburger of a justification, it is strictly expose on how the magic works.

 

[Dog3352]

There's nothing manipulating information, though. It's like calling chemistry information manipulation, because chemistry follows the exact same premise- if you change the formula, you get a different result. This is a nothingburger of a justification, it is strictly expose on how the magic works.

Chemistry is a physical mixture, not something abstract/metaphysical as pure formulas, you cannot compare me by mixing ethanol + hydrogen with someone creating a fundamental/essential formula for the existence of something.

In fact, they are completely different things.

 

[Arkenis]

The "reality" is if info 2 is fundamental to all reality, in the case of a skill (such as magic), it is necessary that information is essential/fundamental to the ability (magic) itself, to which it is a criterion that the magic formula follows.

I'm pretty sure reality on page refers to the reality of the universe in verse. And you're right, it is necessary, but that information can just be knowledge, doesn't have to be the building blocks of reality.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Chemistry is a physical mixture, not something abstract/metaphysical as pure formulas, you cannot compare me by mixing ethanol + hydrogen with someone creating a fundamental/essential formula for the existence of something.

It's not about what it's manipulating, though. The magic itself isn't information or analogous to it- or if it is, you've been wasting time arguing about the presence of the formulae being the justification for information manip. So whatever magic is, changing the formula of it doesn't render it information manipulation. No information is in fact manipulated. Just the means of creating the magic is, thus yielding a different result. That's just like. How things tend to work. In real life, and in this fictional verse.

 

[Digital_Franz]

And this literally goes against what is in the Wiki description, VBW itself literally has one of the "possible uses" a description of what magical formulas are:

You are missing something:

This information is shown to compose reality similar to how data underlies a video game world, code defines the rules of a simulation or in a fashion equally fundamental to these examples.

Magic formulas are formulas that change them will change the spell, destroying them will make the spell not used (exist), is a fundamental/essencel part to use magic, a part that exists in the "center" of each spell (a more "fundamental" part), which is exactly what info 2 asks in the description.

It changes the spell, it is information but does it make up reality? No.

 

[Dog3352]

It's not about what it's manipulating, though. The magic itself isn't information or analogous to it- or if it is, you've been wasting time arguing about the presence of the formulae being the justification for information manip. So whatever magic is, changing the formula of it doesn't render it information manipulation. No information is in fact manipulated. Just the means of creating the magic is, thus yielding a different result. That's just like. How things tend to work. In real life, and in this fictional verse.

The magic itself is not Info 2, the magic formulas they are.

Magic formulas are things that form the spell, magic formulas are abstract and fundamental, changing them would change the spell itself, just like Info 2 page itself asks.

Fundamental: These characters can manipulate information that serves as a fundamental building block of reality. This information is shown to compose reality similar to how data underlies a video game world, code defines the rules of a simulation or in a fashion equally fundamental to these examples. This may allow characters to rewrite the world to their whims, often by programming it much like they would a virtual reality. The ability can come on many levels of potency. The possible uses range from being the mechanism behind mundane magical abilities to rewriting information to change reality, causality or the laws of nature.

Fundamental building block of "reality":

Magic formulas meet this criterion, as they are fundamental formulas for the existence/use of the spell, existing in the center of each spell.

Just as the data of a game form the game itself, and modifying the data would modify the game itself:

Magic formulas also meet this criterion, since magic formulas are fundamental formulas that if they are modified would modify the spell itself.

Magic formulas are: fundamental, make up the "reality" (skill/magic), abstract, altering them would change their own "reality" (skill/magic itself).

All the description itself is there.

 

[Dog3352]

You are missing something:


It changes the spell, it is information but does it make up reality? No.

The "reality" is if info 2 is fundamental to all reality, in the case of a skill (such as magic), it is necessary that information is essential/fundamental to the ability (magic) itself, to which it is a criterion that the magic formula follows.

That's why this exists in the description of info 2:

 

[DontTalkDT]

I didn't really comment on this verse in particular on discord, but from what I see in the debate this should be removed, yes.

And this literally goes against what is in the Wiki description, VBW itself literally has one of the "possible uses" a description of what magical formulas are:

Something being a possible use of an ability does not mean that having that grants the ability. E.g. a possible use of plot manipulation is altering concepts, but that does not mean that you get plot manipulation just by altering concepts. You actually have to meet all the requirements for plot manipulation independently of that feat.
It's basically confusing cause and effect. The same effect can be achieved by many causes.

Magic formulas are things that form the spell, magic formulas are abstract and fundamental, changing them would change the spell itself, just like Info 2 page itself asks.

Unless it's like Kawakami-verse and all of reality is composed of magic formulas that doesn't work. From what I see magic formulas here are just the thing giving magic structure, not things that define the fundamental nature of matter and energy as a whole. (i.e. not fundamental building blocks of reality)

 

[Huesito88]

Unless it's like Kawakami-verse and all of reality is composed of magic formulas that doesn't work.

Wait what's that verse? (I'm not finding it)

 

[wwereymy235]

I didn't really comment on this verse in particular on discord, but from what I see in the debate this should be removed, yes.

Something being a possible use of an ability does not mean that having that grants the ability. E.g. a possible use of plot manipulation is altering concepts, but that does not mean that you get plot manipulation just by altering concepts. You actually have to meet all the requirements for plot manipulation independently of that feat.
It's basically confusing cause and effect. The same effect can be achieved by many causes.


Unless it's like Kawakami-verse and all of reality is composed of magic formulas that doesn't work. From what I see magic formulas here are just the thing giving magic structure, not things that define the fundamental nature of matter and energy as a whole. (i.e. not fundamental building blocks of reality)

What is your discord?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Wait what's that verse? (I'm not finding it)

See here. Basically, a collection of various connected works, from which we have profiles for some.

What is your discord?

DontTalk#9951 (I'm not online much)
Or donttalk_ by modern notation.

 

[Glis]

Nuetral on disqualifying it as information, more on agreeing to have it's type 2 removed. To give more context, magic formulas are complicated patterns of certain runes, gates, and letters that are manifested through magic. The two forms it comes with, theoretical and practical formulae, could be summed up as the expected magical result and the actual result, which depends on the user casting it. So while it lacks any direct mentions of being information, the series does consistently indicate that magic formulae provides and acts as the core information(like efficiency, time duration, class, appropriate wavelength, and desired effect) of a spell. Being a fundamental aspect of reality is an entirely different matter though.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

All the scans say at the end of the day is that "if you change how you do it, you get a different effect; we have documented how to get certain effects, and if you do it differently, you will not get the same result". Info Manip is straight up not here man.

 

[Godsatoshi23]

Unless it's like Kawakami-verse and all of reality is composed of magic formulas that doesn't work. From what I see magic formulas here are just the thing giving magic structure, not things that define the fundamental nature of matter and energy as a whole. (i.e. not fundamental building blocks of reality)

Magic operates based on spell formulas, which are theoretical and practical blueprints that determine the properties and function of a spell. Changing a formula changes how magic behaves. This means the formula acts as an informational construct that determines the spell’s nature. If the formula is erased or rewritten, the spell ceases to function or takes on new properties. This suggests that magic does not exist independently but is entirely dependent on the underlying information in the formula.

What do you think of giving Limited or possible Info type 2? Ultima said it's good enough to give limited info 2 for spells.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Magic operates based on spell formulas, which are theoretical and practical blueprints that determine the properties and function of a spell. Changing a formula changes how magic behaves. This means the formula acts as an informational construct that determines the spell’s nature. If the formula is erased or rewritten, the spell ceases to function or takes on new properties. This suggests that magic does not exist independently but is entirely dependent on the underlying information in the formula.

These arguments have already been debunked and debated in this thread.

What do you think of giving Limited or possible Info type 2? Ultima said it's good enough to give limited info 2

It can't be limited or possible if it doesn't meet the requirements in the first place.

 

[Godsatoshi23]

It can't be limited or possible if it doesn't meet the requirements in the first place.

But Ultima said it's fine for limited. Or else It would be fine to wait for him to make comment.