Majin Dante,Mundus and Sparda Upgrades

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

I request the following to be moved up into Multi Solar System for the following reasons.



Devil May Cry 1 HD Dante vs Mundus The Ending-0


Around the 2:50 mark we see Mundus create a dimension which manages to house collosal amounts of stars within them. Enough to grant Mundus a Multi Solar System level.

Now here are some questions running through your head at this moment in time.

Are you sure that the stars in the background are not illusionary and are actual legitimate creations?

Yes they are. Later on within the fight around the 5:50 minute mark we see both fighters travel onto a distant planets atmosphere. And two minutes later even begin to land on it causing great distruction within it. And due to this planet not being an illusion it adds to the legitimacy of the stars present throughout in the background.

We also see Mundus talk about him being able to create a infinite number of Trishes as well which implies he contains powers of great creation. However what nails the coffin is that he is capable of making monsters with very intricate designs. Such as monsters that are capable of travelling through rifts in the time/space fabric

Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening, Lesser Demons File — Gigapede: "Giant creature that made its way into the Human world through a rift in the time-space fabric. Relentlessly strikes down foes with a high voltage attack."

Did Mundus create the stars in the background or did Mundus simply just teleport Dante into space or a different dimention in the Underworld?

No he did not. Mundus throughout DMC lore has never been able to teleport his physical body anywhere before. And when he does teleport it mostly consists of an Avatar with 3 red glowing orbs. And it would be weird if all of a sudden Mundus happens to teleport Dante somewhere without the presence of his 3 red orbs. The exeption to this is when Mundus clawed his way into the human world which is seperated by the time space fabric.

If Dante is truly MSS then how would any enemies pose a threat to him?

During the fight Dante had a weapon called Sparda which gave him the strength of his father. It was with this weapon that Dante was able to cause any significant damage towards Mundus. Dante with his normal gear would be absolutely helpless without the. So Sparda gave him a huge upgrade. However Dante manages to trump his dad in DMC2 and in that game Dante manages to plow through everything with ease. Including Argosax a being that Sparda needed to help to even seal away, and Dante simply blitzes him in base form.

How is Majin form attained?

Dante must be close to death to attain his strongest form. To be exact he needs to have his soul almost obliterated for it to turn on. When MF activates it disposes of any threats and then turns itself of. This is shown in the DMC3 manga when Alice attempts to eat Dante's soul.

I hope this clears things up. There are many more details but I want the most important ones out the way first.

 

[Lina_Shields]

So, DMC2 Dante should be around 4-B, with 4-A as the Majin form right? What would his speed rating be?

 

[Jaften]

While I applaud your argument for its clarity and reasoning, I do have a few problems with it. The most notable being that this all takes place in the Demon World, which have been observed numerous times to obviously not follow the same natural physical laws as the "human" world. This throws a considerable amount of doubt and mystery onto anything involving this realm, especially feats, since the rules are different. For example, while you addressed the issue of the stars in Mundus' realm possibly being physical objects, we have absolutely no confirmation, and even if they are physically real, we can't assume they're the same as stars in the human world. They could be relatively tiny and very close for all we know. Since the laws of physics are completely different, the laws governing stellar nucleosynthesis could be completely different, allowing for tiny absurdly long-lived stars from our perspective. Point is, because the fundamental physical laws of the Demon World are different from our own in ways we cannot really predict or determine, we can't make many definite statements using things from that realm.

Sorry, I just can't advocate this proposal.

...Which is a shame, since I'm a big fan of the original DMC series, Dante in particular.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

While I applaud your argument for its clarity and reasoning, I do have a few problems with it. The most notable being that this all takes place in the Demon World, which have been observed numerous times to obviously not follow the same natural physical laws as the "human" world. This throws a considerable amount of doubt and mystery onto anything involving this realm, especially feats, since the rules are different. For example, while you addressed the issue of the stars in Mundus' realm possibly being physical objects, we have absolutely no confirmation, and even if they are physically real, we can't assume they're the same as stars in the human world. They could be relatively tiny and very close for all we know. Since the laws of physics are completely different, the laws governing stellar nucleosynthesis could be completely different, allowing for tiny absurdly long-lived stars from our perspective. Point is, because the fundamental physical laws of the Demon World are different from our own in ways we cannot really predict or determine, we can't make many definite statements using things from that realm.
Sorry, I just can't advocate this proposal.

...Which is a shame, since I'm a big fan of the original DMC series, Dante in particular.

From what it seems the main issue seems to stem from the fact that we cannot really judge Mundus's realm due to it being different from the Human World.

However the main point is that this feat was not teleportation. If Mundus did bring Dante into another plain of the demon world then your argument would make sense and the whole upgrades would begin to crumble also.

However because it is Mundus himself making a pocket dimension which is not connected to the Demon World at all. Even inside the dimension no laws are being broken whatsoever. Both beings are in space and even gravity still works the same when they land on a distant planet when they travelled.

And also Mundus has also managed to merge both Human and Demon worlds together. So being able to create a dimension which mimics the laws of the human world is plausible.

http://imgur.com/PmdfD7D&q4mNfEJ&IPfJv82&1UDHezc&laiyPLx

 

[Jaften]

However because it is Mundus himself making a pocket dimension which is not connected to the Demon World at all. Even inside the dimension no laws are being broken whatsoever. Both beings are in space and even gravity still works the same when they land on a distant planet when they travelled.

And also Mundus has also managed to merge both Human and Demon worlds together. So being able to create a dimension which mimics the laws of the human world is plausible.

http://imgur.com/PmdfD7D&q4mNfEJ&IPfJv82&1UDHezc&laiyPLx

However, the problem of the true scale of these feats being effectively unprovable is still a problem, though.

making a pocket dimension which is not connected to the Demon World at all.

If you can prove that this is true, that the dimension is not connected to the Demon World at all, you might have a case. But even then, that would not be enough to prove that this pocket dimension, created by a demon residing inside the demon world, would have all the exact same physical laws of the human world. I mean, we can't even prove that the ground they landed on was a "distant planet," because we don't actually see them flying through outer space approaching a planet. After all, Mundus created this entire pocket dimension and its rules are unknown to us, so that land could have been just a flat plane floating in a cloud of chaos for all we know. We have no idea how far away it was nor how fast they were going because we have nothing to use as a reference, and even if we did we couldn't assume it was exactly what we think it is because the rules are not known to us.

tl;dr We don't know and really can't know enough to make the conclusions you're making. Reality warpers are a pain to deal with.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Great points. They really are.

However give me until Friday and I will be able to make a case which should be able to prove most of the things I am saying. If you are available on that day then that will be fantastic.

I feel as if rushing to answer your arguments wont do any of us any good at all.

You are the first one who has absolutely put a halt to my plans xD. Anyways if you can bear with me that will be great.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

if this is the case the speed is vague but the lightning might be unnatural as Mundus maybe he warped to be MFTL+ to match Dante's speed i mean it does exist having unnatural lightning and the dimension is Mundus's own pocket dimension which means he has domain over all that he does there Dante will be at least 4-B or 4-A in dmc 2 because in base he can be agrosax who gave sparda more trouble as Sparda needed help to seal agrosax while with mundus he can solo

 

[Phantasys]

We've already had a thread demanding MFTL+ and it got shot down.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

i still wonder if that lightning was unnatural i mean mundus can manipulate the lightning to match the speed but still the dimension itself can't be ignored

 

[Jaften]

Great points. They really are.
However give me until Friday and I will be able to make a case which should be able to prove most of the things I am saying. If you are available on that day then that will be fantastic.

I feel as if rushing to answer your arguments wont do any of us any good at all.

You are the first one who has absolutely put a halt to my plans xD. Anyways if you can bear with me that will be great.

Just to be clear, I don't have any problem with the idea of Mundus, Sparda and Boosted DT Dante being Tier 4. I mean, non-canon Dante from Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne can eat pizza... multiversally. And I was more than just "okay" with that.

What I had problems with here is the method used to prove it, since the setting of the feats throws any evidence into the realm of complete uncertainty by default.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Great points. They really are.
However give me until Friday and I will be able to make a case which should be able to prove most of the things I am saying. If you are available on that day then that will be fantastic.

I feel as if rushing to answer your arguments wont do any of us any good at all.

You are the first one who has absolutely put a halt to my plans xD. Anyways if you can bear with me that will be great.

Just to be clear, I don't have any problem with the idea of Mundus, Sparda and Boosted DT Dante being Tier 4. I mean, non-canon Dante from Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne can eat pizza... multiversally. And I was more than just "okay" with that.
What I had problems with here is the method used to prove it, since the setting of the feats throws any evidence into the realm of complete uncertainty by default.

So you feel as if these upgrades are reasonable?

If the method makes you feel uneasy then I will try to change those thoughts on Friday. Just tell me the things you want answers/proof for and I will deliver.

 

[Yojimbo1989]

Great points. They really are.
However give me until Friday and I will be able to make a case which should be able to prove most of the things I am saying. If you are available on that day then that will be fantastic.

I feel as if rushing to answer your arguments wont do any of us any good at all.

You are the first one who has absolutely put a halt to my plans xD. Anyways if you can bear with me that will be great.

So, did you manage to get the evidence you needed?

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Nah far too busy atm. Wont be until a while until I can have the oupputunity to review DMC lore again.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Well instead of trying to prove Mundus being MSS with nothing but assumptions. I am going to prove Mundus is Multi Universal with concrete evidence instead.

Part 1: The Feat itself










This whole feat is based around these 3 scans. The context is that Mundus managed to merge both the Human and Demon worlds together. And due to both Human and Demon worlds having different space/time continums (Shown in pt 2 evidence) this would show Mundus as a low multiversal being due to him merging them together. Scales to Majin/Sparda Dante and Mundus.

Part 2: Proof

Proof of Demon and Human worlds housing different space/time continums.

Devil May Cry 3: Dante's Awakening, Lesser Demons File — Gigapede: "Giant creature that made its way into the Human world through a rift in the time-space fabric.

To be able to even enter the human/demon world one would have to travel through a rift in space/time which can lead into different space/time continums.

Proof that the Merge mentioned by Mundus was in fact successfull.

After Sparda is successful in being able to defeat Mundus scan no 3 mentions Sparda sealing away the demon world to prevent any crazies such as Mundus from being able to doom the human world even further. And so he manages to do this by using the Temen Ni Gru.

And that should clear things up. If you have any questions or counter arguments. I am right here.

 

[Antvasima]

Is the human world explicitly defined as the Universe or just planet Earth? Because the universe is mostly "comprised of" darkness, not light.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

universe ant from what i recall of the lore

 

[Antvasima]

We need some valid proof before such a massive upgrade though.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

http://devilmaycry.wikia.com/wiki/Demon_world here it says about the demon world and the human world is the same size

 

[Antvasima]

I am in a hurry, so I only browsed the beginning of the page, but where does it say that the Demon world is universe-sized? It simply seems to say that it is a place where the demons live (which logically does not have to be more than planet-sized).

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

"The Demon World is an extension of the original darkness that covered the universe before the coming of light" i citied a quote from the page, which shows at the begining part of the page

 

[Antvasima]

Extension does not remotely mean the entirety. The Earth is an extension/part of the universe, but not remotely all of it.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

though even so the demon world and human world have diiferent space-time continiumms merging means having the times synconized i think the manga did explain that the universe did split

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

http://devilmaycry.wikia.com/wiki/Human_World found it the human world is stated to be a universe "Earth is obviously referred to as the human world, although the universe itself could be referred to as the human world." this is the section that stated it

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

though even so the demon world and human world have diiferent space-time continiumms merging means having the times synconized i think the manga did explain that the universe did split

Yeah both worlds did split apart. And with the Manga telling us that the Demon world is an endless container of darkness it was definately implied to be its own Universe.

 

[Antvasima]

http://devilmaycry.wikia.com/wiki/Human_World found it the human world is stated to be a universe "Earth is obviously referred to as the human world, although the universe itself could be referred to as the human world." this is the section that stated it

That is not concrete proof, but rather a sign that the people who wrote that wiki page do not know themselves.

We need more concrete evidence.

Simply transporting an Earth-sized realm to another spacetime does not remotely constitute 2-C, or Kaguya in Naruto would have been rated that high.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

http://devilmaycry.wikia.com/wiki/Human_World found it the human world is stated to be a universe "Earth is obviously referred to as the human world, although the universe itself could be referred to as the human world." this is the section that stated it

That is not concrete proof, but rather a sign that the people who wrote that wiki page do not know themselves.
We need more concrete evidence.

Simply transporting an Earth-sized realm to another spacetime does not remotely constitute 2-C, or Kaguya in Naruto would have been rated that high.

Neither world is the size of a planet at all.

The Demon world is shown to be a universe filled to the brim with darkness and incredibly surreal dimensions as shown in the series.

The Human World is simply our universe.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

http://devilmaycry.wikia.com/wiki/Human_World found it the human world is stated to be a universe "Earth is obviously referred to as the human world, although the universe itself could be referred to as the human world." this is the section that stated it

That is not concrete proof, but rather a sign that the people who wrote that wiki page do not know themselves.
We need more concrete evidence.

Simply transporting an Earth-sized realm to another spacetime does not remotely constitute 2-C, or Kaguya in Naruto would have been rated that high.

sorry i should have made it more clear about what i meant

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. Maybe. Maybe not. I will ask for input.

 

[Lina_Shields]

Well, Mundus did create some sort of space, and during the battle with Dante, he landed on an another planet to continue the battle. This means that Mundus is able to create at least a different area, or even more. With all the statements about the demon and human world fusing as well as Mundus' ability to casually create an entire plane full of stars at will, It is not all that far-fetched when Mundus refers to universes as "worlds".

However, Mundus only becomes 2-C if he actually had succesfully merged the demon and human world; since he did not, he can only be Low 2-C at best.

This upgrade would not have made sense if Mundus had not created that entire place full of stars during that final battle. Seeing that feat, and seeing Mundus land on a random planet in this own area, I am leaning towards worlds being way, way more than just a single planet in this case.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Well, Mundus did create some sort of space, and during the battle with Dante, he landed on an another planet to continue the battle. This means that Mundus is able to create at least a different area, or even more. With all the statements about the demon and human world fusing as well as Mundus' ability to casually create an entire plane full of stars at will, It is not all that far-fetched when Mundus refers to universes as "worlds".
However, Mundus only becomes 2-C if he actually had succesfully merged the demon and human world; since he did not, he can only be Low 2-C at best.

This upgrade would not have made sense if Mundus had not created that entire place full of stars during that final battle. Seeing that feat, and seeing Mundus land on a random planet in this own area, I am leaning towards worlds being way, way more than just a single planet in this case.

I think from what i remembered he did succed but the thing was sparda beat him and forcefully seperated them again

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Well, Mundus did create some sort of space, and during the battle with Dante, he landed on an another planet to continue the battle. This means that Mundus is able to create at least a different area, or even more. With all the statements about the demon and human world fusing as well as Mundus' ability to casually create an entire plane full of stars at will, It is not all that far-fetched when Mundus refers to universes as "worlds".
However, Mundus only becomes 2-C if he actually had succesfully merged the demon and human world; since he did not, he can only be Low 2-C at best.

This upgrade would not have made sense if Mundus had not created that entire place full of stars during that final battle. Seeing that feat, and seeing Mundus land on a random planet in this own area, I am leaning towards worlds being way, way more than just a single planet in this case.

I think from what i remembered he did succed but the thing was sparda beat him and forcefully seperated them again

Yea thats what happned.

Sparda seperated both Human and Demon worlds with the use of Hellgates and Temen Ni Gru.

 

[LordAizenSama]

From the scale of the things happening and what the characters can do I think its likely that Worlds=Universes here

I'm unsure about the upgrades in the OP due to the arguments Jaften noted though.

about the 2-C lore upgrade though I'm not convinced that it had combined 2 universes based off what you wrote, did you have any other proof?

 

[Sheoth]

Okay, can someone link something outright stating that both the human and demon realms are full sized universes?

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

Okay, can someone link something outright stating that both the human and demon realms are full sized universes?

I don't believe there are any outright comments from a game rep saying that. But from what the games and manga have shown us there is enough proof to tell us they are in fact full sized universes.

The Human world is self explanatory. World in this context is not just refering to only Earth and applies to the rest of our normal universe.

The Demon World is slightly more complicated. This universe is quite large because there are so many different dimensions shown inside it. One would have to bend space/time to even be able to travel through the demon world effectively.

And when you factor in Mundus's space creating feat. The action of him merging two space/time continums does not seem very far fetched.

 

[Sheoth]

I see. Well personally I am kind of split on this one. What ant said could be true, about how this may be taken out of context. However, you also make good points.

We should have some more staff offer input.

 

[Austrian-Man-Meat]

I see. Well personally I am kind of split on this one. What ant said could be true, about how this may be taken out of context. However, you also make good points.
We should have some more staff offer input.

Yeah I also agree on that.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

if dante is 2-C by this end we should put at least 2-C because he is stronger than sparda in base why? well despair embodiment actually gave sparda much more difficulty than when he did with mundus and his legion as sparda beat mundus and his entire army single-handily but needed help from humans to seal despair embodiment while Dante can beat and seal him singel-handily so yeah we have to rescale despair embodiment

 

[ThePerpetual]

Well, the problem here is that, from what I'm able to tell, the "Human World", as it is referred to in DMC, tends to simply refer to the Planet itself, even by the wikis definition, with only the possibility of anything more than that. Seeing as we have no way to confirming that and that it's rather inconcsistent from the looks of things even within the series, what we seem to be looking at is simply a small human world being merged into a vastly larger demon world. This much, too, is supported by the very text you have supplied us with:

"Endless darkness a container of chaos But even in such a world there was a line of light And the world ended up separated into two. Darkness is the demon world and light is the human world. Together, both worlds have continued to coexist for a long long time."

What with the darkness being described as endless, and the light as a "line" within it.

...that being said, it's still merging an entire planet with an alternate reality of existence, so I'd wager you're still looking at Planet level Mundus and the like.

 

[LordAizenSama]

I do think there is too much speculation here to warrant a upgrade here though.

 

[ThePerpetual]

As far as speed goes... hmm. Not entirely sure where to go with that, to be honest.

Also, again, do we have proof that Mundus created this pocket dimension on the spot? Or did he just take Dante to some place in the Demon World or, alternatively, just space? You point out that Dante normally needs space-time manipulation to travel through the demon realm, yet that was in Devil May Cry 3, which A: is in-verse chronologically before Devil May Cry 1, in which Dante fights Mundus, and B: is in-real life after Devil May Cry 1, during which time, IIRC, different people were involved in its production and development as a series. Things easily could've changed in between then and now, so to speak, meaning its not impossible that Mundus transporting them to some other place in the Demon World doesn't seem like an impossibility.

Though, also to be fair, hasn't he reacted to light and lasers and such with some amount of frequency? If so, would that fall under the not natural light/aim-dodging category, or no? Would that actually change his speed at all?