Major Lord of Mysteries Revisions (Part 1.5: Original Creator Abilities; Nonduality, Acausality, NEP)

[SuperNova55555]

Greetings again, it has been only a day or so since this CRT for Lord of Mysteries. This CRT now is about the hax and abilities of the Original Creator and the Primordial Chaos.

I would like to talk about some potential interpretational issues with the scaling I’ve discovered since the last CRT, but if you don’t care about that then you can just immediately go to the abilities section.

Spoiler: Notes

Now, the last CRT concluded that the Primordial Chaos is some form of singularity by which OC’s cyclical nature emerges and dies in, but now, I have discovered a few issues with this view:

As Lumian clenched one of the arms on his right side, the void before him collapsed entirely, meeting its apocalypse. It formed a vortex of chaos that contained all colors and possibilities.

Just as an Apocalypse was an ascendant form of Catastrophe, Chaos was an ascendant form of Apocalypse.

Catastrophe led to the collapse of an entire system. Apocalypse deepened that collapse into a total explosion of contradictions, entangling all into one. Chaos represented the singularity in a convergence, the conclusion after the total explosion.

Thus, the Chaos of the Chaos Demoness could not be applied directly to a stable and balanced target. A catastrophic collapse must first be created in the designated area, followed by the total explosion of contradictions to form a substantial vortex of chaos. Only then could it spread outward to affect the target.

As soon as the vortex containing all colors appeared, it began spreading toward the malevolent dragon. (Circle of Inevitability 1154)

This was a manifestation of one of the Demoness's authorities.

Honorific titles like "The Female Body of the Primordial God Almighty," "The mirrored Original Creator-the Oldest One," and "The True Successor of the Original Creator" were labels that Cheek Herself had added after merging with the Blood Emperor Alista Tudor, discovering and utilizing the hidden features of the Catastrophe pathway. However, the Sequence 0 Demoness of the Witch pathway being named "Primordial Demoness" or "Chaos Demoness," predated Her deification and was recorded on the Second Blasphemy Slate.

This referred both to the feminine aspect of a Demoness as an extension of the Primordial God Almighty and to one of the Demoness's authorities: the authority over the return of all things to chaos and the primordial state. This was a branch of the symbolism of destruction and endings, distinct from death, eternal darkness, decay, ruin, slaughter, or fragmentation as methods of finality.

It, along with authorities like "femininity," "charm," "the mirror world," and "dark magic," was a core authority of the Demoness and an elevated concept encompassing "apocalypse" and "catastrophe."

Thus, the Demoness was a demoness who wielded chaos. (Circle of Inevitability 1132)

The body with Aurore's and Jenna's face clenched its right hand.

They caused all contradictions in the area to erupt instantly, transforming the apocalypse into a vortex of chaos that swallowed nearby asteroids, along with time, space, and fate.

This chaos vortex rapidly expanded toward the Circle of Inevitability, targeting not His body but a fixed tributary within the mercury-colored River of Fate.

It sought to drag this tributary into the apoca-lypse, returning it to chaos, thereby breaking the Circle of Inevitability's Destined powers.

The Circle of Inevitability's three bodies began spinning around a single point.

He attempted to trigger a Loop not yet affected by the chaos vortex, resetting the state of the battlefield.

At this moment, Amanises suddenly abandoned applying symbolic influence on the Monarch of Decay. Instead, using the team's connection, She unleashed deep darkness like a river from the void near Lumian, pulling time and space into Herself and merging them swiftly.

Eternal Darkness was also Space-Time-in-One!

Although this symbolism was incomplete, it managed to halt the Circle of Inevitability's spinning, suspending Him like an insect trapped in amber.

Origins of Disaster Lumian seized the oppor-tunity, allowing the chaos vortex to spread over, engulfing the fixed tributary of fate and the pre-set Loop node.

Then, the chaos vortex, embodying all colors and possibilities, consumed the three-bodied Circle of Inevitability, causing Him to collapse into chaos in an instant.

Neither Lumian nor Amanises paused to confirm their victory, as the Monarch of Decay made the Fog of War advance to its end and applied the symbolism of Certain Death to them.

A second later, at the dissipating chaos vortex's center, the dark body of the Circle of Inevitability reappeared. He had reunited with His mercury-colored and redemptive light-formed bodies, resuming His hand signs.

Past symbolism!

What was not lost in the past could not be destroyed in the present!

Lumian instantly realized one thing: only by using the kind of power associated with the Fourth Pillar-erasing the very concept of the Circle of Inevitability's existence and His past history-could He be truly wounded or killed

Of course, the King of Space-Time, who held the symbolism of History, might not be able to kill the Circle of Inevitability but could certainly inflict suffering worse than death. (Circle of Inevitability 1170)

Essentially, what Chaos is, is simply the merging of contradictions (or Yin-Yang, as mentioned elsewhere in the novel) that leads to a singularity of non-existence where things are dissolved or unrealized in. This “singularity” then acts as a sort of “black hole” or “vortex” in which more and more of these contradictions dissolve into nothingness.

And the Primordial Chaos now, is just when all dualities fully merge into one, or when the Original Creator (that is all contradictions) becomes fully erased or “unmanifested” considering that he comes back in the next cycles. The Fourth Pillar then (the way in which OC terminates into non-existence), is simply a “black hole” that dissolves all dualities fully.

The cycle of the LOTM verse essentially becomes this:

Complete Nonduality (Primordial Chaos/0) -> Complete Transduality (Awakening of Original Creator/1) -> All Yin and Yang bringing about all things (Contradictions within OC/2) -> Everything (3) -> Convergence (Merging of Yin and Yang) -> Complete Nonduality (Primordial Chaos/0)

Only reason I bring this up is so that it is accepted here in advance so it causes no issues later on. But, there is maybe a problem in the fact characters can locally affect contradictions (Yin-Yang basically).

As seen in the above scans, by forcefully entangling contradictions together, they can create Chaos itself. Now, they cannot directly create Chaos in any way (so that’s not a problem), but it is a side-effect of opposites colliding with each other, which can be instantiated by any character in any level of reality.

Now it should be mentioned, as seen in the last scan above, there are limits to what sort of contradictions characters can interact with. Normal beings only do with contradictions, but only the Fourth Pillar (who is on the level of OC) is capable of fully erasing GOOs (which means affecting the previously accepted 1-A Symbols).

Now, a slight issue might emerge—both contradictions being affected leads to the (supposedly) same Chaos, which might cause a qualitative issue. I feel though, this is not a problem, since Chaos is just non-existence which is the same in any layer (since it’s the lack of qualities). And obviously, no character can actively actualize it, as it happens only by a process of the very cosmology itself which is furthermore, most likely actualized by OC (the Godhead) of the verse.

As, OC’s Symbol, probably transcends the cycle of Chaos itself.

“Everything in this world originates from the Original Creator. All living beings, all Beyonder characteristics, the way events unfold, and the miraculous turns of fate—all of it.

"What does this mean? It means separation leads to convergence. Something good will inevitably carry bad aspects, and vice versa.

"This is the essence of the world, the fundamental symbol that governs all things. Even existences as powerful as the Great Mother can't completely avoid it. They can only mitigate its influence." (Circle of Inevitability 1118)

We know it’s probably beyond it because the Symbol still seems to exist even though OC is already split up. And obviously, only OC’s body takes part in this cycle, and we know embodiments of Symbols are just their manifestation.

Proof for the body thingy:

“They believe that all objects are numeric. Every number has a spirituality and in ritualistic magic, 0 represents the unknown or Chaos. It symbolizes the state of the universe before it was born. 1 represents a beginning, the first Creator. 2 represents the world and various divinities that were produced from His body. 3 represents contact between divinities and material objects to create all things. Here, using two candles represents the Goddess while the third candle is for you.

“Which two candles and which two symbols to have depend on the intended effects the of ritualistic magic.”

Three begets all things 1 ? All things stem from three? Klein could not help but recall certain things from his previous life.”
(Lord of Mysteries 51)

Also, OC can manipulate other Sefirot (things constructed from Symbols) but his Symbol remains untouched, as said above:

“At this point, Mr. Fool lightly tapped the edge of the bronze long table and added, "Normally, like Uniquenesses, sefirot cannot be divided, copied, or destroyed. Only one situation can cause them to be torn apart—encountering the Original Creator.

"He is the 'Exception', the 'Inconceivable', the 'Incomprehensible', the 'Indescribable'. All things that shouldn't happen might happen when encountering Him—unknowable, undiscussable, unnameable.” (Circle of Inevitability 1089)

He has the same relationship Great Old Ones have with their Symbols (in how they embody them) as OC does with the fact he is the embodiment of the universe:

“That Lord of the Mysteries and God Almighty of ancient times were unable to restrain themselves from converging together, becoming the embodiment of the entire Universe, which is also the innate instinct of the original Creator.”
(Lord of Mysteries 1369)

Also this scan basically just implies Chaos itself is derived from a Symbol:

“Meanwhile, Anthony noticed a strange change in the surrounding scenery: one side reflected the real world—sunlight, stars, green trees, the sea, humans—chaotically jumbled together. The other side resembled a frozen, lifeless universe. Above, brilliant explosions of light continued to erupt, casting out vast amounts of matter, while below, deep, dark abysses consumed everything, compressing it toward a final singular point…

These were still illusions, mere reflections of the mirror world.

Yet even a demigod like Anthony felt an indescribable fear rooted deep in his soul and flesh.

Despite Jenna still being at Sequence 3, without higher-level Beyonder characteristics, her presence was nearly as terrifying as the terror emanating from the depths of the special mirror world.

Because she embodied a most unique and fearsome symbol.

A symbol of the creation and destruction of everything!” (Circle of Inevitability 1111)

So with this, I am essentially saying that Chaos is a manifestation of fundamental Symbolism and not simply just a force that somehow affects two layers of different ontologies, which would also be supported by the fact that certain Chaoses—like that of Demonesses and on the other hand, the Fourth Pillar—have differences in power:

The body with Aurore's and Jenna's face clenched its right hand.

They caused all contradictions in the area to erupt instantly, transforming the apocalypse into a vortex of chaos that swallowed nearby asteroids, along with time, space, and fate.

This chaos vortex rapidly expanded toward the Circle of Inevitability, targeting not His body but a fixed tributary within the mercury-colored River of Fate.

It sought to drag this tributary into the apoca-lypse, returning it to chaos, thereby breaking the Circle of Inevitability's Destined powers.

The Circle of Inevitability's three bodies began spinning around a single point.

He attempted to trigger a Loop not yet affected by the chaos vortex, resetting the state of the battlefield.

At this moment, Amanises suddenly abandoned applying symbolic influence on the Monarch of Decay. Instead, using the team's connection, She unleashed deep darkness like a river from the void near Lumian, pulling time and space into Herself and merging them swiftly.

Eternal Darkness was also Space-Time-in-One!

Although this symbolism was incomplete, it managed to halt the Circle of Inevitability's spinning, suspending Him like an insect trapped in amber.

Origins of Disaster Lumian seized the oppor-tunity, allowing the chaos vortex to spread over, engulfing the fixed tributary of fate and the pre-set Loop node.

Then, the chaos vortex, embodying all colors and possibilities, consumed the three-bodied Circle of Inevitability, causing Him to collapse into chaos in an instant.

Neither Lumian nor Amanises paused to confirm their victory, as the Monarch of Decay made the Fog of War advance to its end and applied the symbolism of Certain Death to them.

A second later, at the dissipating chaos vortex's center, the dark body of the Circle of Inevitability reappeared. He had reunited with His mercury-colored and redemptive light-formed bodies, resuming His hand signs.

Past symbolism!

What was not lost in the past could not be destroyed in the present!

Lumian instantly realized one thing: only by using the kind of power associated with the Fourth Pillar-erasing the very concept of the Circle of Inevitability's existence and His past history-could He be truly wounded or killed

Of course, the King of Space-Time, who held the symbolism of History, might not be able to kill the Circle of Inevitability but could certainly inflict suffering worse than death. (Circle of Inevitability 1170)

So yeah, the Chaos that affects the 1-A things actually seems to be derived by something above those 1-A things themselves, so I feel this might clear any doubt..

And the cosmology is basically:

OC’s Symbol (prob just Symbol of Chaos since OC represents that) > OC and the whole cycle of Chaos instantiated by Genesis and Termination > other Symbols > everything else (non-1A)

Again, it’s important I cover this, since it might be relevant for the next part of the CRT, and just to clear up confusion.

Spoiler: “Abilities”

Acausality 5 is completely off the table as shown above so I’m not gonna bother.

But, Acausality 4 is almost guaranteed.

Firstly, lesser characters are going to get it.

Secondly, the Original Creator can literally act before any concept or notion space, time, change and fate (which, if you look at the above CRT, contains all possible futures) existed, as it’s been accepted in the previous CRT that he precedes the universals that instantiate these notions:

On the first day, the Original Creator awoke and created this world, but reality, the spirit world, the astral world, and fate were still mixed together.

On the second day, the Oldest One birthed the Mother Goddess of Depravity. Reality gained a foundation, the spirit world and astral world were separated, and the River of Fate began to flow. Soon after, the Mother Tree of Desire was born, giving rise to life and introducing evil and desire. Then came the Son of Chaos, who established order-and with it, shadows naturally emerged.


On the third day, the Oldest One and the Mother Goddess united, and the Mother of All Things gave birth to a firstborn daughter. From then on, the fates of all things began to intertwine, no longer in absolute chaos but instead forming relative patterns and foreseeable futures. (Circle of Inevitability 1171)

Transduality Type 2 should also be obvious for Original Creator, considering he is every contradiction itself:

The original Creator was the maker of the Universe, and also its destroyer. It is both day and also night. It's the light of holiness, and also the decadent abyss. It is an amalgamation of all contradicting concepts and symbolism. (Lord of Mysteries 1369)

"Whatever separates will definitely converge, and whatever converges will definitely separate. This description isn't limited to Beyonder characteristics, but also refers to the Oldest One 'Himself.' As most of the sefirot and characteristics are from this supreme existence, there are natural inclinations of convergence. And the Oldest One is the amalgamation of all the contradictions in the Universe. Once the sefirot and characteristics are gathered, it will almost certainly separate." (Lord of Mysteries 1272)

Without giving The Chariot Lumian and The Magician Fors a chance to ask further questions, the Mr. Fool enveloped in gray fog said with a touch of sentiment, "The Original Creator is the collective of all. He is crazy, but also rational; He is confused, but also lucid. He created everything, and He destroyed everything. He loves all things, and He also hates all things. He has the most intense of all desires, yet He is indifferent and unaffected by anything. All His actions are random, even He Himself cannot predict them. (Circle of Inevitability 1088)

Roselle had once speculated about the truth behind the Law of Beyonder Characteristics Conservation. He suspected that all Beyonder characteristics originated from the original Creator, so there's no increase, and that the total amount is conserved... Assuming that this is true, does this mean that the Creator who created everything is all-inclusive, masculinity, femininity, and gender-neutral all in one.. And the Demoness pathway is a representation of pure femininity? (Lord of Mysteries 441)

Should be mentioned that while these states are said to be contradictions and some (especially towards the latter scans) are straight-up mutually exclusive (and to the full extent of them so it’s not like they take 50% of the whole or something), the other more vague dualities like Day and Night should also be contradictory as the initial state of OC was a complete unity (so it’s not like he was simply “part night” and “part day”). And for even more obscure sort of proof, entities like Inextinguishable Ravings don’t have a physical form but are only an abstract mental entity instead, which contradicts all the other stuff OC is.

As for Primordial Chaos (the state of OC being unrealized), being merging of Yin and Yang (here in reference to the rebooting of the universe):

The phrase "Yin contains yang, yang contains yin, the union of yin and yang gives rise to everything" was indeed correct, and the only method, but only up until the final step. But in this state, attempting to accommodate the City of Calamity would inevitably lead to disaster.

The phrase "the union of yin and yang gives rise to everything" itself hinted at its conclusion:

What did everything begin with? It began with the Original Creator creating this world!

The union of yin and yang signifies a return to the origin, heralding the rebirth of all things!

Of course, what would return wouldn't be the complete Original Creator but rather a Mirrored Original Creator, stable enough to avoid immediately destroying and rebooting the universe.

In the First Epoch, the first sefirah accommodated by the Primordial God Almighty was the City of Calamity. Beyond His deep desire for it, He likely foresaw its dangers. By intervening personally and using the chaotic head as a barrier, He prevented yin and yang from fully merging, halting their integration.

Everything was threefold, giving birth to all things.

Only then could it be stable. (Circle of Inevitability 1154)

And it being (as explained in the first section) the merging of all contradictions that leads to a non-existence of unrealized possibilities:

The formless, colorless flames, along with the innumerable fire soldiers, were sucked into the vortex, shredded into fragments, and dissolved, becoming part of the myriad unrealized possibilities. (Circle of Inevitability 1132)

With the Original Creator being erased into it:

"However, the Oldest One's will can dissipate, but 'His' spirit will remain forever. It won't be erased unless the entire Universe returns to the singularity. Therefore, the corresponding high-level existences still have the possibility of having the Oldest One awaken in them. The higher the level, the greater the possibility. The corresponding influence and corruption will become more serious." (Lord of Mysteries 1272)

Can only mean that the Primordial Chaos is the absence of all dualities and contradictions that the Original Creator is, meaning that it gains Nonduality Type 2 and as it is non-existence itself:

Among them, "0" represented chaos, the unknown, what existed before everything, while "1" represented the beginning, the Oldest One, the Creator who made this world.

The "0" and "1" within those black and white eyes suddenly underwent a change.

They connected end-to-end, rapidly flowing through the transparent tunnel formed by the eye orbs, shifting from "0" to "1" , then from "1" back to "0", from non-existence to existence, and then back again. (Circle of Inevitability 1071)

It will gain Nonexistent Physiology Type 1. Though, if you look at the scans above for Original Creator, he contains dualities within himself that are essentially P and not-P of sorts (that is the basis for TD2 to begin with) like light and darkness or confusion and lucidity or any other mentioned duality for example, so, OC should contain within himself the non-existence of things itself, meaning, Chaos (being the unity between the two) gains Nonexistent Physiology Type 2, instead as it’s been made clear that it isn’t just non-existence, but rather the state of undifferentiated unrealization that contains all possibility for things to be.

In the previous CRT, it was already accepted that the Original Creator is the source of Truth itself, and in addition to statements such as these:

The Indestructible!

This was the Mother Goddess of Depravity's symbolism of Indestructibility. Her Indestructibility nature meant that, like the Primordial God Almighty and The Celestial Worthy of Heaven and Earth for Blessings, Her spirit would never be eradicated and would gradually recover over time. It also represented the indestructibility of Her soul and body.

The Mother Goddess of Depravity would never perish—unless She encountered the Original Creator, who could make the impossible happen, or the fourth Pillar symbolizing the end to everything was born, or She overextended the Chaos Primogenitor's unique symbolism. (Circle of Inevitability 1161)

At this point, Mr. Fool lightly tapped the edge of the bronze long table and added, "Normally, like Uniquenesses, sefirot cannot be divided, copied, or destroyed. Only one situation can cause them to be torn apart—encountering the Original Creator.

"He is the 'Exception', the 'Inconceivable', the 'Incomprehensible', the 'Indescribable'. All things that shouldn't happen might happen when encountering Him-unknowable, undiscussable, unnameable. (Circle of Inevitability 1089)

And author statements such as these, I feel it is appropriate for the Original Creator to obtain the Logic version of Law Manipulation.

Also in relation to that Law Manipulation, the abilities in regards to changing logic are ones said to alter the underlying rules of the world:

“Right on the heels of that, he seized the opportunity while 0-02 was fixing the loophole to quickly recall the detailed information regarding the Trunsoest Brass Book.

“…This book possesses a living characteristic, but most of the time, it’s at a very low level…

“…The first half of the book displays almost all the underlying rules, while the second half is blank. It needs to be filled in autonomously…

“…Once there are no restrictions, it will naturally set up laws with certain biases for the surrounding areas and strictly enforce it. During this process, it will change and correct the rules based on the feedback.

“…As the law gradually becomes stricter, ‘His’ living characteristic will deepen… Once a law that can interfere with all aspects takes form, the Trunsoest Brass Book will completely come alive. It will possess true intelligence, and has the ability to modify the first half of the underlying rules to a certain extent… The exact extent that it can reach is as follows…” (Lord of Mysteries 1288)

“A distortion and disorder of the world’s underlying rules? In addition, it seems to contain some mystery from the Black Emperor’s resurrection…” (Lord of Mysteries 1301)

Additionally, the Original Creator will gain every ability in the verse, since as shown above—Beyonder Characteristics (the power source of characters in the verse) alongside Uniquenesses (corresponding to Sequence 0) and Sefirot (corresponding to Great Old Ones) all originate from OC:

“I see… Uniquenesses correspond to Sequence 0 true gods, sefirot correspond to those above the Sequences…" Lumian summarized in his own way.

Madam Magician quickly glanced at Mr. Fool, and seeing no particular reaction from this great existence, she continued, "Sefirot are collections of symbols, sources of authority, and origins of power.

"Back then, when the Original Creator awakened, causing the destruction of the old era, He split into six sefirot, sixteen Uniquenesses, and all the Beyonder characteristics of sixteen paths of the divine.” (Circle of Inevitability 1089)

Madam Magician considered for a moment and said, "I've told you before that the source of all supernatural powers can be traced back to the original Creator.”
(Circle of Inevitability 1010)

Also as seen in the first scan of this section, the Symbolism, Sefirot and Great Old Ones that actualize the notions of the verse only took effect after OC created them, and with the knowledge that he can alter the amount of these structures as He wills shows that he possesses all these abilities beforehand, regardless of whether the Sefirot are “split off” from him or not.

Conclusions: Nonduality Type 2, NEP Type 2, Law (Logic) Manipulation, Acausality Type 4

Agree: Qawsedf234, ActuallySpaceman42, DarkDragonMedeus
Disagree:

 

[Rez]

Orignal creator should get all of the abilities that every single member of the verse has simply because of the nature of his existence you should establish that within this crt as well.

Will make things easier later on.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Orignal creator should get all of the abilities that every single member of the verse has simply because of the nature of his existence you should establish that within this crt as well.

Will make things easier later on.

Oh ye, good catch lol. I’ll add that in a bit.

 

[LazyDaoist]

Orignal creator should get all of the abilities that every single member of the verse has simply because of the nature of his existence you should establish that within this crt as well.

That's only complete 9 Sefirot OC, though theoretically he can use all power in the verse with things like power mimicry, the 6 Sefirot doesn't actually have all the Symbolism

 

[Rez]

That's only complete 9 Sefirot OC, though theoretically he can use all power in the verse with things like power mimicry, the 6 Sefirot doesn't actually have all the Symbolism

Everything originates from him and is a part of him, he doesn't need to mimicry every power in verse is his, every sefirot and goo and every symbolism is a part of him

 

[LazyDaoist]

Everything originates from him and is a part of him, he doesn't need to mimicry every power in verse is his, every sefirot and goo and every symbolism is a part of him

iirc the one that splits is after he gave birth to MGoD, SoC, MToD, its not the complete OC, that's why the 6 special pathways is said to not be from OC, maybe he have some influece/control over their symbolism but the 6 Sefirot OC doesn't have them

 

[LazyDaoist]

Remember that Beyonder can pass on their characteristic to their children, which is basically what happens here, the complete OC is before he gave birth to those 3 GOO

 

[SuperNova55555]

Remember that Beyonder can pass on their characteristic to their children, which is basically what happens here, the complete OC is before he gave birth to those 3 GOO

We are scaling complete (fully awakened) OC here.

 

[LazyDaoist]

We are scaling complete (fully awakened) OC here.

You can just make 2 keys for him but that's up to you

 

[SuperNova55555]

You can just make 2 keys for him but that's up to you

I mean that’d just be hax because all versions of OC have the exact same AP. (But its also stated he can make any pathway or sefirot or anything so Im highly, highly skeptical theres a difference in had either way)

 

[SuperNova55555]

Bump

 

[SuperNova55555]

Bump^2

 

[Seraphor12]

Alright, so here’s the issue I’m seeing with the scans you posted, If Chaos is something that can be triggered through the interaction of contradictions (like Yin and Yang clashing), and if that process can be done by characters, even really strong ones then Chaos isn’t actually something that exists above all that. It’s not disconnected from duality but rather it’s dependent on it. Like, you even have a step by step process: First, cause a collapse (Catastrophe), then let contradictions explode (Apocalypse), and then Chaos forms. That basically means Chaos isn’t existing independently above all dualities but it’s something that emerges from them, and that’s a big problem when trying to claim it’s part of a qualitatively superior realm like a true 1A. Anything on that level has to be completely unreachable from below. You can't add up contradictions or lower concepts and end up with something 1A. But here, Chaos seems like the end result of a process involving lower level elements. That makes it more like a symbolic black hole that collapses contradictions, not something ontologically removed from them. And if characters at any level 1A or not can influence or trigger this process, even indirectly, then it breaks the requirement of irreducibility. That’s what disqualifies something from being truly 1A.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Alright, so here’s the issue I’m seeing with the scans you posted, If Chaos is something that can be triggered through the interaction of contradictions (like Yin and Yang clashing), and if that process can be done by characters, even really strong ones then Chaos isn’t actually something that exists above all that. It’s not disconnected from duality but rather it’s dependent on it. Like, you even have a step by step process: First, cause a collapse (Catastrophe), then let contradictions explode (Apocalypse), and then Chaos forms. That basically means Chaos isn’t existing independently above all dualities but it’s something that emerges from them, and that’s a big problem when trying to claim it’s part of a qualitatively superior realm like a true 1A. Anything on that level has to be completely unreachable from below. You can't add up contradictions or lower concepts and end up with something 1A. But here, Chaos seems like the end result of a process involving lower level elements. That makes it more like a symbolic black hole that collapses contradictions, not something ontologically removed from them. And if characters at any level 1A or not can influence or trigger this process, even indirectly, then it breaks the requirement of irreducibility. That’s what disqualifies something from being truly 1A.

Chaos is just a particular state of non-existence (so it would not be tiered; which I kind of hinted at the OP, but Chaos is no longer a “character” per se) which is the derivative of contradictions unifying. The fact of the matter is that the existence itself is also a derivative of these contradictions—that’s the entire point with OC, so with this particular logic, you would have to assert that the verse isn’t 1A regardless of Chaos existing or not in the first place, since OC is what sustains both layers. (Essentially, if OC is contradictions in both layers, then returning to Chaos is just the act of OC itself—which is in fact, what it actually is, so it causes no problems in which layer OC returns to Chaos unless the very fact OC represents both layers disqualifies 1A inherently. But this shouldn’t be a problem, since tiering separate qualitative realms necessitates a framework to even make the differences between them, which is what OC would be in this case)

And also, non-existence is the same in any 1A layer—it is the very lack of quality itself, so if 2 things in separate qualitative realms are erased from existence, they are “demoted” to the same type of non-being. Obviously though, that doesn’t mean that something of a lower layer erasing the existence of a particular thing would somehow cause any issue for the qualitative state of the higher layers

 

[Seraphor12]

Chaos is just a particular state of non-existence (so it would not be tiered; which I kind of hinted at the OP, but Chaos is no longer a “character” per se) which is the derivative of contradictions unifying. The fact of the matter is that the existence itself is also a derivative of these contradictions—that’s the entire point with OC, so with this particular logic, you would have to assert that the verse isn’t 1A regardless of Chaos existing or not in the first place, since OC is what sustains both layers. (Essentially, if OC is contradictions in both layers, then returning to Chaos is just the act of OC itself—which is in fact, what it actually is, so it causes no problems in which layer OC returns to Chaos unless the very fact OC represents both layers disqualifies 1A inherently. But this shouldn’t be a problem, since tiering separate qualitative realms necessitates a framework to even make the differences between them, which is what OC would be in this case)

And also, non-existence is the same in any 1A layer—it is the very lack of quality itself, so if 2 things in separate qualitative realms are erased from existence, they are “demoted” to the same type of non-being. Obviously though, that doesn’t mean that something of a lower layer erasing the existence of a particular thing would somehow cause any issue for the qualitative state of the higher layers

Yeah, so Chaos is just a state of non existence and not a tiered character, and the act of contradictions merging is just how OC cycles back into that state. However, the potential issue isn't just the presence of Chaos, but the accessibility of the contradictions that lead to it. If contradictions like the very foundation that defines multiple layers and their separation can be manipulated by characters regardless of their ontological level, it could blur the line between layers. The idea of qualitative superiority rests on inaccessibility of higher layers cannot be affected by lower structures or characters unless there’s a clear bypass like a direct empowerment or conversion. Suppose the verse allows for contradictions to be collapsed or manipulated from within the lower parts and this leads to consequences like inducing chaos or destabilizing the oc's framework locally so in that case, it introduces causal interaction between layers. Even if the characters are not affecting chaos directly, the ability to trigger it by forcing contradiction collapses might be seen as a form of structural reach into higher states. This doesn't necessarily downgrade 1A but could still raise valid concerns.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Yeah, so Chaos is just a state of non existence and not a tiered character, and the act of contradictions merging is just how OC cycles back into that state. However, the potential issue isn't just the presence of Chaos, but the accessibility of the contradictions that lead to it. If contradictions like the very foundation that defines multiple layers and their separation can be manipulated by characters regardless of their ontological level, it could blur the line between layers. The idea of qualitative superiority rests on inaccessibility of higher layers cannot be affected by lower structures or characters unless there’s a clear bypass like a direct empowerment or conversion. Suppose the verse allows for contradictions to be collapsed or manipulated from within the lower parts and this leads to consequences like inducing chaos or destabilizing the oc's framework locally so in that case, it introduces causal interaction between layers. Even if the characters are not affecting chaos directly, the ability to trigger it by forcing contradiction collapses might be seen as a form of structural reach into higher states. This doesn't necessarily downgrade 1A but could still raise valid concerns.

The contradictions would be what make up the verse in general. It’s not like the characters are affecting the essence of existence itself. It’s the reason why “OC’s body” is what makes up the abstract and the material things, so what is happening when a character affects the contradiction is essentially OC’s body affecting OC’s body. (Also this is kind of a point in the later parts of the CRT that every ability in the verse is derived from OC itself)

 

[Seraphor12]

The contradictions would be what make up the verse in general. It’s not like the characters are affecting the essence of existence itself. It’s the reason why “OC’s body” is what makes up the abstract and the material things, so what is happening when a character affects the contradiction is essentially OC’s body affecting OC’s body. (Also this is kind of a point in the later parts of the CRT that every ability in the verse is derived from OC itself)

Hmm it kinda makes sense if everything stems from the OC, then technically, anything that happens within the verse is just a form of the OC acting on itself. But that raises a deeper metaphysical question for tiering, if all characters, regardless of their "layer" or placement, are just parts of the OC acting within itself, then the distinction between qualitative layers starts to collapse unless there’s a clear separation in how much of the OC's essence is being manifested or expressed. Not sure but if the verse treats contradiction collapse as something only possible through higher order expression of the oc like via avatars that are themselves already part of the higher domain, like high tiers of verse(great old ones or pillars) then it should be fine ig but if it allows relatively lower existences to trigger events like contradiction collapse and chaos vortexes independently, then that could count against the kind of transcendence 1A requires.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Hmm it kinda makes sense if everything stems from the OC, then technically, anything that happens within the verse is just a form of the OC acting on itself. But that raises a deeper metaphysical question for tiering, if all characters, regardless of their "layer" or placement, are just parts of the OC acting within itself, then the distinction between qualitative layers starts to collapse unless there’s a clear separation in how much of the OC's essence is being manifested or expressed. Not sure but if the verse treats contradiction collapse as something only possible through higher order expression of the oc like via avatars that are themselves already part of the higher domain, like high tiers of verse(great old ones or pillars) then it should be fine ig but if it allows relatively lower existences to trigger events like contradiction collapse and chaos vortexes independently, then that could count against the kind of transcendence 1A requires.

I mean, if we take a look at a tier 0 verse—all things within that verse would be part of the tier 0 thing, but those lesser things are still “tierable” in respect to how they are manifested. In the same manner, while everything is part of OC, they are not OC itself—so it should be thought off in a pantheistic sense.

Also, while OC is all contradictions, that doesn’t mean that all contradictions are of the same quality. So affecting certain contradictions is not the same as affecting the totality of OC somehow—it’s just that the certain state of mutually-exclusive things uniting leads to Chaos (which is just non-existence; this itself, again, points to what I’ve been talking about earlier: would causing something non-1A to cease existence disqualify 1-A? Because there certainly doesn’t seem to be that much of a difference between affecting the contradictions and doing that. And after all, the whole point is that OC’s body encompasses all qualities, by virtue of it being the physical and the abstract things simultaneously.)

 

[Seraphor12]

I mean, if we take a look at a tier 0 verse—all things within that verse would be part of the tier 0 thing, but those lesser things are still “tierable” in respect to how they are manifested. In the same manner, while everything is part of OC, they are not OC itself—so it should be thought off in a pantheistic sense.

Also, while OC is all contradictions, that doesn’t mean that all contradictions are of the same quality. So affecting certain contradictions is not the same as affecting the totality of OC somehow—it’s just that the certain state of mutually-exclusive things uniting leads to Chaos (which is just non-existence; this itself, again, points to what I’ve been talking about earlier: would causing something non-1A to cease existence disqualify 1-A? Because there certainly doesn’t seem to be that much of a difference between affecting the contradictions and doing that. And after all, the whole point is that OC’s body encompasses all qualities, by virtue of it being the physical and the abstract things simultaneously.)

Yeah, that’s a good point about pantheistic framing so if we treat OC as a Tier 0 like origin of all things, then yeah lesser manifestations can still be tiered based on how much of oc they express. But the key thing for 1A isn’t just that they're all "parts" of OC it’s how these parts interact across layers. The worry isn’t really about chaos = non-existence, or even affecting contradictions being inherently 1A or not. The issue is: if characters regardless of where they sit in the structure can trigger contradiction collapse without some higher level hax or something, then it gets tricky. Like even if it’s a lower contradiction being manipulated, if it causes a collapse into chaos (which is supposedly shared across layers), that interaction crosses boundaries that are supposed to be inaccessible in a qualitatively separated system. You mentioned that contradictions themselves can differ in quality which helps a lot. If the verse makes it clear that low layer contradictions can be affected without touching the totality of oc or breaking the upper layers, then it might still hold. But that separation needs to be explicit in the cosmology, otherwise it can risk downgrading from 1A. So it's not about non 1As erasing things being a problem. It's about whether they’re doing it through a higher level hax(which is fine), or if they’re directly poking at layer transcending structures (which would undercut qualitative superiority).

 

[SuperNova55555]

Yeah, that’s a good point about pantheistic framing so if we treat OC as a Tier 0 like origin of all things, then yeah lesser manifestations can still be tiered based on how much of oc they express. But the key thing for 1A isn’t just that they're all "parts" of OC it’s how these parts interact across layers. The worry isn’t really about chaos = non-existence, or even affecting contradictions being inherently 1A or not. The issue is: if characters regardless of where they sit in the structure can trigger contradiction collapse without some higher level hax or something, then it gets tricky. Like even if it’s a lower contradiction being manipulated, if it causes a collapse into chaos (which is supposedly shared across layers), that interaction crosses boundaries that are supposed to be inaccessible in a qualitatively separated system. You mentioned that contradictions themselves can differ in quality which helps a lot. If the verse makes it clear that low layer contradictions can be affected without touching the totality of oc or breaking the upper layers, then it might still hold. But that separation needs to be explicit in the cosmology, otherwise it can risk downgrading from 1A. So it's not about non 1As erasing things being a problem. It's about whether they’re doing it through a higher level hax(which is fine), or if they’re directly poking at layer transcending structures (which would undercut qualitative superiority).

Chaos would just be the state that appears when two contradictions merge. The quality of the contradictions really wouldn’t matter as long as they’re mutually exclusive things merging together. Because, if we’re accepting that all things are dualities, then the whole thing devolves into “contradictions affecting contradictions of the same quality”.

As I said, I generally don’t see a problem with the view except if you disagree with 1A OC prematurely.

 

[Seraphor12]

Chaos would just be the state that appears when two contradictions merge. The quality of the contradictions really wouldn’t matter as long as they’re mutually exclusive things merging together. Because, if we’re accepting that all things are dualities, then the whole thing devolves into “contradictions affecting contradictions of the same quality”.

As I said, I generally don’t see a problem with the view except if you disagree with 1A OC prematurely.

Yeah, after going through the ability stuff again, I think I’m pretty solid on oc having transduality type 2 and Nep2. Scans make it kinda obvious. What convinced me about nonduality type 2 (and why I’m okay with OC being 1A) is how primordial chaos is not just “nothing” or a regular void. It’s a state of pure unrealized potential a kind of reset point where all dualities fully merge. chaos is the starting and ending point of the entire cycle “0” becoming “1,” then going back to “0.” Also, the whole thing with “Truth” powers in the verse like how Seq 1 characters can manipulate logic itself, and the fact that those powers all come from OC… it just makes sense if his abilities let you rewrite how logic even works, then he himself has to be beyond any logic framework we’re used to even the ones that allow contradictions. Which is why I also think Plurality fits really well here. oc doesn’t just exist as “A and not-A” or “neither A nor not-A” he’s something beyond all those states. Like, his existence doesn’t follow binary logic at all. He’d fall under a higher level with more truth values stuff you can’t describe in basic true/false terms. That would also explain why even things that are supposed to be “indestructible” can still be erased by him he operates on a level that transcends them. Although Idk if this idea was already rejected but imo it is a possiblity.

 

[Rez]

Bump

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Ah yes, the anime where Crunchyroll is using chatgpt to translate chinese and the studio is rushing the story like a formula one race

 

[SuperNova55555]

Ah yes, the anime where Crunchyroll is using chatgpt to translate chinese and the studio is rushing the story like a formula one race

I ain’t the biggest fan of it either tbf

 

[SuperNova55555]

Bump.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Yea the CRT is dead, RIP.

 

[Seraphor12]

Yea the CRT is dead, RIP.

You should probably try to ask thread mods in their walls don't give up this easily

 

[Qawsedf234]

Conclusions: Nonduality Type 2, NEP Type 2, Law (Logic) Manipulation, Acausality Type 4

Reading through it I think everything looks fine, but Acasual Type 4 will need to specify what different system they're operating in. They can't just be Acausal Type 4 without having a resistance listed with it.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Reading through it I think everything looks fine, but Acasual Type 4 will need to specify what different system they're operating in. They can't just be Acausal Type 4 without having a resistance listed with it.

It would be resistance to Fate and Time manip since River of Fate envelops both fate and temporal futures

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

All of this is fine.

 

[Re5yh]

Looks fine

 

[SuperNova55555]

Bump

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks alright to me.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Looks alright to me.

Unbelievable… this thread finally passed. Never thought the day would come….

Anyways, this can be closed whenever a mod sees fit.