Marvel: Annihilation Upgrades

[C2_of_Omegon]

Ok, I think it's time to address something that's been here for a while and kind has never been brought up. Annihilation Wave was a Marvel comics event that had Annihilus and the Negative Zone out to conqouer the the 616 Universe. It was a huge event and featured a lot of Marvel's now very famous Cosmic characters. But there are two we are concerning ourselves with today: Silver Surfer and Nova.

During the event, both recieved notable upgrades to their levels of power and that's what we're here to look at.

1. Silver Surfer

During the events of Annihilation, two cosmic beings are unleashed that were sealed away by Galactus. Galactus summons Surfer to him and recruits him back into his service. At the same time, he upgrades Surfer's power while tempering his persoanility. See here.

To give an idea of the difference in power, here's Surfer fighting one of Annihilus minions (Ravenous) before he gets his upgrade. Fight here.

Notice that Surfer is actually a bit of trouble before escaping with his comrade. Now, see what happens after the upgrade. Here.

Now, given how much trouble Ravenous was giving Surfer before, we can see an obvious difference. Not mention, Ravenous if left aghast at how powerful Surfer has become. Remember, he stated they were equals and based on his first fight with Surfer, that's not too farfetched. Yet, after fighting the new and improved Surfer, he's beaten very easily.

As if there wasn't enough, later in the event, Galactus and Silver Surfer have been captured by the Annihilation Wave and imprisioned. Thanos, who had been working with Annihilus up to this point, switches sides and goes to release him. Thanos put in a failsafe that was keyed to his power level, so that only he or someone of his level could open it. Drax had already killed Thanos, so instead he gets a battered and depleted Silver Surfer to do it. See here and here. It works.

This is huge, because this shows how much more powerful Surfer really has become. Based on this, I believe that Surfer should get a key for his Post-Annihilation self.

2. Nova

This one is simple. Currently, we have Nova rated as 4-B and include his feats of contending Thor and Gladiator. The thing, though, is that he was a simple Nova Corp member with a fraction of the Nova Force when he did those things. When the Annihilation Wave hits, the Nova Corp is wiped out and Nova is forced to contain the whole thing, with the World Mind regulating usage so he doesn't go insane.

My point with this, is that if Rider could fight with Thor and Gladiator with access to a small portion of the force, shouldn't he be much more powerful with the whole thing? This further backed up when, after receiving the full Nova Force, Rider says that he feels like can do anything.

Another example of this is a clash between Surfer and Rider. See here. Note, that's Silver Surfer after his upgrade. So, with extreme effort and briely accessing his full power, Nova is contending with Silver Surfer, who we've established as being much more powerful then he was before. It should also be noted that Silver Surfer doesn't really seam to be trying.

As such, I'd propose that Nova's profiles be split into two keys: Nova Corp Member and Nova Prime.

Conclusion: Both characters were capable of fighting people like Thor before the Annihilaiton event and have recieved upgrades putting them beyond that level and their profiles need to reflect that.

 

[Antvasima]

They did grow more powerful, yes, but their tiers would not change above 4-B even if they grew a million times more powerful.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

They did grow more powerful, yes, but their tiers would not change above 4-B even if they grew a million times more powerful.

Ummm, Ant...I wasn't trying to upgrade their tiers or anything. I was trying to get keys made for them to denote their increases in power and giving the justification for those keys so that they're profiles are more accurate. Both characters have years of being at a certain level and then they got stronger and have kept those changes.

For Silver Surfer: Pre-Annihilation | Post-Annihilatio

For Nova: Nova Corp Member | Nova Prime

They'd still 4-B, they'd just be stronger than before with the feats to back that up.

 

[Antvasima]

But would new keys really be warranted in that case? Shouldn't it just be mentioned that they were powered up elsewhere in the pages?

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

I mean, you could but I fear that cause some problems with how we handle them, especially they're standings with other in Marvel Comics.

For instance, we credit Thor as more powerful than a serious Silver Surfer. That wouldn't hold true to Post-Annihilation Surfer whose honestly more compareable Thanos via the feat I mentioned above. Going further than that, Thanos' justification would have to tweaked. Because his superior showings over Surfer only really matter to Pre-Annihilation Surfer. If we just say that Surfer is stronger than he was before, people are going to think that Thanos is stronger than Post-Annihilation.

Simply put, I'm afraid that we'll have to do a lot more work to avoid confusion. We'd have to idenitfy and tweak a few profiles in addition to Surfer's to make this work.

Nova is worse. Not because he's wrapped up in other's scaling but because his change to Nova Prime introduced a lot of things to him that he didn't originally have. The Worldmind, the issues hosting the entire Nova Force, the fact that he needs to the Nova Force just to survive, those didn't occur until he became Nova Prime. His profile acts as though this was always the case and it wasn't first became Nova.

EDIT: Not too mention these upgrades to Surfer and Nova have lasted nearly 15 years and mark big differences in the characters to how they were decades before.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I suppose that makes sense, but I personally sincerely doubt that Nova was truly tier 4 before gaining the entire Nova Force.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Well, I suppose that makes sense, but I personally sincerely doubt that Nova was truly tier 4 before gaining the entire Nova Force.

It's kind of weird, honsetly now that you mention it. His fight with Thor had him admit that Thor was much stronger and he really didn't fight that much as just last until Thor came to his senses. With Gladiator, he only hurt him after throwing his attack back at him.

So yeah, I don't think those are proper showing of 4-B. I think that his showing against Post-Annihilation Surfer is much more concrete. As Nova Prime, he also fought Gladiator's cousin, whose just as strong as he is.

Based on that, I'd propose to just change his justifications to reflect more of his feats since he became Nova Prime rather than a key.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that seems reasonable.

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

I agree with adding keys. Both characters have a clear massive power boost.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Would either of you be willing to handle it?

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

I think C2 should handle it. He's definitely fresher on the material than me.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

I'll do it when I'm home. Currently at work.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

Tell me here when you are done.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Annnd done.

 

[Naitez]

I just want to point out that the scan of Thor fighting the Silver Surfer on the moon is of Post-Annihilation Surfer. That all took place during Fraction's Yggdrasil Seed arc in 2011. So the Surfer getting his head dented? Post-Annihilation.

This would make Gladiator scale to him and, to make it fair, make post-Thanos Imperative Thanos more powerful than him.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

I'll respond a little later. Got some serious IRL stuff going on.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

I actually considered the implications of that given everything, but there's a reason why I didn't bring them up: unlike Surfer and Nova, they don't have explict reasons of way they should scale higher. The only reasons these upgrades work is because both recieved a direct powerup that we can clearly see and make a note of. We know they got stronger, so any feat they do after that simply informs how much stronger they got.

Thor, fighting and equalling Post-Annihilation Silver Surfer, makes no sense. Thor cannot beat Pre-Thanos Quest Thanos. Thor cannot beat Post-TQ Thanos. But Thor can equal a Silver Surfer whose been augmented to be powerful enought to, when he's on his last legs, equal Post-TQ Thanos' power level? It's too much of gap without an actual reason. That would make it more of an outlier, not a feat.

Next, Thanos. He's got three major things that I can think of, that don't include wielding cosmic items. First was his revival by Death right before Thanos Quest. It was explictily stated that his power was greatly augmented. We don't make a distinction for him as he was already more powerful then Silver Surfer, Thor, etc. before hand. Next, would be his revival for Thanos Imperative. He bcame immortal and could kill beings from the Cancerverse. However, it was never said that his power was increased. Instead, the focus was on the fact he couldn't die and was the only one who could truly take down Cancerverse residents. However, we do have the God Quarry and Thanos fighting a Phoenix Force Avatar. But that would make Thanos 4-A and...well...it more then likely need it's own thread, TBH. I'm hesitant, because the thing is MacGuffin that only appeared for this story so Thanos could win.

 

[Naitez]

Where do you think Gladiator can fit into this. He's usually portrayed as a hugely powerful cosmic force whenever he's around.

And I'm not sure if Post-Annihilation Silver Surfer would be above or below Sentry.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Gladiator is more than likely around Thor's and Green Hulk's level. Thanos, himself, has compared Gladiator to the Hulk. This is further backed by Gladiator fighting Hyperion. Hyperion, who is around Thor's level as well, lost only because Gladiator was the better fighter. Gladiator vs Thor is one of the longest fights I've seen Gladiator in, and was for the most part give and take. The thing about Gladiator being portrayed as powerful, is that a lot of other characters are held in similiar regards. Thor, Hulk, Silver Surfer, Gladiator, Thanos, Hyperion, various other Heralds of Galactus, the Elders of the Universe, etc. are some of the most power beings in the Marvel Universe barrring beings truly cosmic characters

As for Post-Annihilation Silver Surfer in comparsion to Sentry: it's hard to say. There's a gap between Sentry and certain Marvel 4-Bs that can't really be measured. Sentry would and has beaten Thor. Realistically, he'd beat just about anyone on Thor's level. However, then you have those like Thanos, Cosmic Ghost Rider or PA Silver Surfer, who we know are stronger than Thor as well. Enough so that they could handle him pretty well. Sentry has never fought anyone on that level and has never demonstrated how hard or easy a time he'd have with them. Everyone Sentry has fought has either been on his level (Blue Marvel, Worldbreaker Hulk) or below him (Thor, Terrax, Namor).

Simply put, there's two major benchmarks in Marvel 4-Bs. There's Thor level (around like 360-389 kilofoe) and Sentry level (just under 1000 kilofoe/1 megafoe). Everyone else, falls inbetween there until we get some actual fights.

 

[Antvasima]

So should I lock the profiles and close this thread?

 

[Antvasima]

Never mind. As I think that I mentioned earlier, I do not think that regular, pre-entire Nova Force, Nova should be anywhere near 4-B, and that fighting Thor and Gladiator are outliers.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Never mind. As I think that I mentioned earlier, I do not think that regular, pre-entire Nova Force, Nova should be anywhere near 4-B, and that fighting Thor and Gladiator are outliers.

Should we list him as 'Unknown'?

 

[Antvasima]

I think that we should just use a single key, and write a footnote that these are his post-power-up statistics. At least until we find some reliable feats to scale from.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Ok.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

And done.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the help. Should I lock the page and close this thread now then?

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Thank you for the help. Should I lock the page and close this thread now then?

Feel free. Happy to help.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.