Marvel Comics Projects

[Antvasima]

So what do you have in mind in terms of tiering and scaling then, more specifically?

 

[Eseseso]

So what do you have in mind in terms of tiering and scaling then, more specifically?

As I said on the discussion thread, in all honesty it'd likely be similar to pre-split, albeit with fewer layers.

Omniverse is High 1-A baseline, Beyonders are 1 layer, WHR is 2 layers, Never Queen is 3 layers, and TOAA is 4 layers.

Everything currently below 1-A+ stays the same.

That's it.

Oblivion still scales equal to the other abstracts, since like I said the statements supposedly claiming him to be above the multiverse require too many assumptions IMO.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that I can live with that, but it doesn't sound like DeMatteis' cosmology.

 

[Re5yh]

I think DeMatteis cosmology could not be easly handled for many reasons.

 

[Eseseso]

Okay. I suppose that I can live with that, but it doesn't sound like DeMatteis' cosmology.

Well like I said, some of the Demattis statements supposed putting him at the top of everything are vague and/or require a lot of assumptions, like assuming he is the void that results from the Divine Creator's Dreamless Slumber despite nothing else indicating that.

Asides from that, none of the Demattis statements would (from what I see) put his current multiversal Far Shore level self any higher than he currently is.

 

[Nonynho]

Question: to whom may i talk about to get more insight on L1-A fellas for this verse?

 

[Eseseso]

Question: to whom may i talk about to get more insight on L1-A fellas for this verse?

 

[PromptedElephant641]

As I discussed in the main Marvel discussion thread, there are some inescapable issues with the cosmology that can be addressed and clarified rather easily:

Regardless of where the Omniverse is rated to be (it is probably fine as it currently i), it is what comes afterwards that is the problem. The Beyonders were created by the Celestials and are internal creations of Eternity. As such there CAN’T be any degree of transcendence between Eternity and The Beyonders and definitely not a Meta-Qualitative transcendence. Additionally, The Beyond Realm is literally made from the corpse of the second cosmos. The WHR is below the Never Queen with the more powerful later being directly comparable to The Griever at The End of All Things and who was killed as a result of the destruction of reality in Secret Wars. Additionally, The Never Queen is the former Fourth Eternity. The Abstracts are also shown to be capable of killing The Phoenix while inside TWR and even destroying TWR. In an Al Ewing story, Resurrection of Magneto, Storm uses the symbolic power of magic to defeat several Dominions. Magic is a product of the Fifth Eternity. TOAA can remain a degree of transcendence to and above everything else.


As for the rest of The Abstracts, it is clear that from the level of Eternity to The Never Queen, they are all comparable in their fullest extent. To get around this issue and the matter that The Beyonders have been consistently depicted as superior to the Multi-Abstracts, another key can be added to SOME of the relevant abstracts well beyond their Multi-Abstract forms. This true key will be above Multiversal Eternity and The Beyond realm and should be baseline High-1A. Those that would have this key would be The Phoenix Force, Eternity, The Never Queen, and The Griever at The End of All Things. The latter three form The Three Faces of Existence and The Phoenix Force is the embodiment of all life at all times on every level throughout all of Eternity being the concept of endless cycles of creation, destruction, resurrection, and rebirth and, as implied in Defenders Beyond, to be the source of time. The lesser abstracts like The Inbetweener, Galactus, Love and Hate etc, would not qualify. Additionally, The Phoenix Force and The Never Queen should have a Multi-Abstract tier key as well which should be comparable to Multi-Eternity. This would mean that there will be a Multi-Abstract equivalent of TWR and The Land of Can be Shall be. This will be the level at which the Abstracts confronted and threatened The Phoenix Force in the Latest Phoenix Comic arc. It would also be the the level at which The Never Queen was killed by the actions of The Beyonders. This literally clarifies and resolves all of the issues with high tier cosmic Marvel scaling.


There is just one thing left to be decided, The Elder Gods. Currently they are the most egregious example of there being inconsistencies and over-tiered characters in the Cosmology.

• There are plenty of statements of manifestations of the abstracts being above Elder Gods with a manifestation of the Powers That Be considering Chthon to be but an acolyte and practitioner of its power. The Elder Gods should be evaluated individually as they are quite different, but this serves as a high end for the most powerful of their ranks.
• A manifestation of The Griever at The End of All Things considered Chthon to be an irrelevance that she could easily erase.
• In Immortal Thor Vol #2, Thor facing the Elder Gods Toranos directly states “Even with The Odin Power added to mine, he proves too much for me!” Thor only survives by banishing Toranos to The Far Shore “the furthest edge of Eternity.” This shows that Elder Gods can be banished WITHIN Multi-Eternity and that the internal contents of Multi-Eternity are more than enough to contain them. For some reason this feat of being banished to The Far Shore has been used to scale Elder Gods to the Far Shore when it is literally an Anti-Feat for them.
• The Elder Gods were merely made by The Demiurge Primordial alongside the formation of Earth, while individually far more powerful than all the regular gods of Earth combined, they are not Uber powerful cosmic entities beyond the Multi-Abstracts.
• The Elder Gods should not scale to TWSAIS as they are likely Beyonders and, as such, are far beyond the capacity of regular Elder Gods.

This would not change much, just shifting the cosmology from being as it currently is:

• Multi-Eternity
• Beyond Realm
• TWR
• The Never Queen
• TOAA / HOI

Making it into this:

• 1A (1 Layer of transcendence): Universal forms of Abstracts such as Eternity (Earth-616). The most powerful Elder Gods should be at this level as a weakened Chthon possessing Quicksilver was able to be a serious threat to 616-Eternity. Additionally, an alternate reality Set was able to consume the universal Phoenix Force.
• 1A+ (baseline): Multi-Eternity (this also includes all the other Multi-Abstracts and their realms including the newly proposed Multi-Whitehot-Room and Multi-Land-of Can-be-Shall-be.) The Beyond Realm is also at this level (While the Beyonders are definitely more powerful [no qualitative superiority] they exist at the same level as the Multi-Abstract and are depicted as creations of The Celestials or a creation of a creation (Cal-Horra) of the Celestials. Their realm is even formed from the remains of the corpse of Second Eternity. They are probably quantitatively superior to the Multi-Abstracts but can never be considered superior qualitatively.) Additionally, Those Who Sit Above in The Shadows, who may be Beyonders, are at this level. (Elder Gods should not scale to them as there is plenty of evidence that they are far lower than this. Additionally TWSAIS are implied to have taken up residence on Utgard and are likely not actually Elder Gods but a sect of Beyonders.) (NOTE: All of the “worlds within worlds” statements in Marvel need to be reevaluated as many of them seem dubious. Most of these “worlds within worlds” statements provided display no degree of actual transcendence and are freely navigated by characters from one level to the next, without the aid of a higher power, violating the rules of Qualitative transcendence. There are likely some that are valid, but those that are not need to be discarded.)
• High-1A (Baseline): True Eternity (The World of Action), True Never Queen, True Griever at The End of All Things (The Three Faces of Existence) and The True Phoenix Force / The White Hot Room and its opposite, The True Cold Dark Room. Additionally: the True Dominions, True Form Nyx, True Form Tiger God, and True Form Oblivion. (The House of Ideas is the pinnacle of The World of Action, but is merely the residence of TOAA while within it. It is the delineation point for "the place where the World of Action ends, and the World of Creation begins.")
• High-1A (1 level of transcendence): TOAA (The World of Creation.) The TOAA encountered in The House of Ideas is only “the beginning of what he represents.” TOAA endlessly explores The Mystery as it “intrigues him.” The Mystery is not an infinite hierarchy as some have said and is instead that which lies beyond The World of Action. It is “the universe” that TOAA inhabits. Just as we can never explore all of our universe as it is infinite relative to us, TOAA can never explore all of his for the same reason, he is but an inhabitant of it. (“The Crown Above All Things” was implied to be above even TOAA, though this seems to have been discarded and is likely an inconsistency as this would place Dominions illogically high in the cosmology.)

NOTE: While there is evidence of a primordial Oblivion that contains the entirety of the Cosmology, even TOAA, it relies on the usage of the word Oblivion which may or may not be the actual entity. In Jim Starlin’s Cosmology, the void referred to as of Oblivion, contains TOAA and if All powerful future Thanos were to kill himself, he would be sending himself and creation to Oblivion. In the recent Hulk comics, TOAA emerged from the Void and The Mother of Horrors did as well independently. Though, until an actual comic discussing the true nature of Oblivion is written by a reputable Marvel Cosmology writer such as Al Ewing (Not someone like Murewa Ayodele) this is merely speculation. In the meantime rather than being the all encompassing entity containing all of Marvel, he should be treated as the ultimate embodiment of voids, darkness, and endings in Marvel.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

Most of that makes sense. There is quite a bit of variability among the Elder Gods. However, the Utgard Gods scaling above the Far Shore doesn't come from Tornados getting banished there: it comes from Utgard-Loki creating Utgard itself, a realm in the Mystery that's blatantly shown to exist beyond the Far Shore and is where gods erased from existence by Oblivion end up, as well as scaling above Loki's narrative magic that could affect Beyonders.

 

[PromptedElephant641]

Most of that makes sense. There is quite a bit of variability among the Elder Gods. However, the Utgard Gods scaling above the Far Shore doesn't come from Tornados getting banished there: it comes from Utgard-Loki creating Utgard itself, a realm in the Mystery that's blatantly shown to exist beyond the Far Shore and is where gods erased from existence by Oblivion end up, as well as scaling above Loki's narrative magic that could affect Beyonders.

The Elder Gods have lots of conflicting information and have been displayed in a variety of ways. At their peak interpretation they could scale above Multi-Abstracts. Chthon does have the statement of being older than the entirety of the celestial race which would make him as old or older than The First Firmament.

 

[Tomfer]

This discussion can be done in the general discussion, this thread is to show the plans of your future CRT, not discuss them.

@Confluctor and @Tomfer: Moon Knight profile revamp

This was done and applied, you can remove it from OP.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

The Elder Gods have lots of conflicting information and have been displayed in a variety of ways. At their peak interpretation they could scale above Multi-Abstracts. Chthon does have the statement of being older than the entirety of the celestial race which would make him as old or older than The First Firmament.

I wasn't aware about that Cthon statement. Interesting find. I'll stop chatting about it here since Tomfer did bring up the purpose of the thread, but I definitely think that not all Elder Gods are created equal which would help resolve some inconsistencies.

 

[PromptedElephant641]

I wasn't aware about that Cthon statement. Interesting find. I'll stop chatting about it here since Tomfer did bring up the purpose of the thread, but I definitely think that not all Elder Gods are created equal which would help resolve some inconsistencies.

Since this as stated is not the purpose of this thread this will be my last post, but here is Chthon stating he is older than The celestials and he can destroy them.

There is also the statement that Chthon is to all other demons what the universe is to us.

 

[Antvasima]

Just a note that I do not remember the Beyonders harming the Never Queen. Can somebody remind me about that, if it is correct, please?

Also, I still do not think that we should scale the cosmology from Jim Starlin's most recent Thanos stories.

 

[PromptedElephant641]

Just a note that I do not remember the Beyonders harming the Never Queen. Can somebody remind me about that, if it is correct, please?

Also, I still do not think that we should scale the cosmology from Jim Starlin's most recent Thanos stories.

As a result of their destruction of everything in Secret Wars, The Beyonders destroyed all possibilities of their being a future. As such The Never Queen literally died in corresponding ongoing Silver Surfer Comic series of the time (Silver Surfer Vol7) as she is the embodiment of possibilities. She was later resurrected in the same series.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. Can somebody find scans please?

 

[PromptedElephant641]

Hmm. Can somebody find scans please?

This shows her death and later resurrection in Silver Surfer Vol7

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the reminder. I have read that story, but it was quite a long time ago.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

I'm starting work on the Herald rescaling project (with quite a bit of much-appreciated help from Eseseso). Here are the characters that will be affected off the top of my head:

• Jane Foster
• Beta Ray Bill
• Gladiator
• Hyperion
• Silver Surfer
• Firelord
• Hulk
• Juggernaut
• Sentry
• Eric Masterson Thor/Thunderstrike (profile creation)
• Blue Marvel
• Thanos
• Ultron

If y'all think of any others that should be clearly and consistently included in that scaling chain, let me know! If I'm not mistaken, somebody is already working on fixing Ultron. If that person reads this let me know who you are so we can work on the chain together. From what I've found so far, High 3-A to Low 2-C looks like it'll replace the 3-C to High 3-A range we have now but that of course is subject to change. Some Heralds can also vary to much higher tiers on occasion but that's a case by case thing: this will mostly be concerned about establishing a baseline that's consistent and solidly supported.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I'm starting work on the Herald rescaling project (with quite a bit of much-appreciated help from Eseseso). Here are the characters that will be affected off the top of my head:

• Jane Foster
• Beta Ray Bill
• Gladiator
• Hyperion
• Silver Surfer
• Firelord
• Hulk
• Juggernaut
• Sentry
• Eric Masterson Thor/Thunderstrike (profile creation)
• Blue Marvel
• Thanos
• Ultron

If y'all think of any others that should be clearly and consistently included in that scaling chain, let me know! If I'm not mistaken, somebody is already working on fixing Ultron. If that person reads this let me know who you are so we can work on the chain together. From what I've found so far, High 3-A to Low 2-C looks like it'll replace the 3-C to High 3-A range we have now but that of course is subject to change. Some Heralds can also vary to much higher tiers on occasion but that's a case by case thing: this will mostly be concerned about establishing a baseline that's consistent and solidly supported.

Is that supposed to be a list of all the 3-C characters or just the ones you think should scale to H3-A/L2-C? Because I know at least 2 or 3 characters not on that list who are currently scaling to 3-C.
I think Starbrand should be on that list anyways, his scaling is very consistent.

 

[Eseseso]

I'm starting work on the Herald rescaling project (with quite a bit of much-appreciated help from Eseseso). Here are the characters that will be affected off the top of my head:

• Jane Foster
• Beta Ray Bill
• Gladiator
• Hyperion
• Silver Surfer
• Firelord
• Hulk
• Juggernaut
• Sentry
• Eric Masterson Thor/Thunderstrike (profile creation)
• Blue Marvel
• Thanos
• Ultron

If y'all think of any others that should be clearly and consistently included in that scaling chain, let me know! If I'm not mistaken, somebody is already working on fixing Ultron. If that person reads this let me know who you are so we can work on the chain together. From what I've found so far, High 3-A to Low 2-C looks like it'll replace the 3-C to High 3-A range we have now but that of course is subject to change. Some Heralds can also vary to much higher tiers on occasion but that's a case by case thing: this will mostly be concerned about establishing a baseline that's consistent and solidly supported.

Happy to help out, legend.

Besides, since I've found like a half dozen more statements for the universe being infinite (Silver Surfer comics love saying the universe is infinite for some reason), 3-C might just need to go anyways since shaking an entire High 3-A structure is High 3-A.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

Is that supposed to be a list of all the 3-C characters or just the ones you think should scale to H3-A/L2-C? Because I know at least 2 or 3 characters not on that list who are currently scaling to 3-C.
I think Starbrand should be on that list anyways, his scaling is very consistent.

That's a great addition. I entirely forgot about Starbrand but he definitely belongs on that list. Pretty much everybody we have at 3-C right now is there because of a finite universe calc and will need to be High 3-A instead.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

Happy to help out, legend.

Besides, since I've found like a half dozen more statements for the universe being infinite (Silver Surfer comics love saying the universe is infinite for some reason), 3-C might just need to go anyways since shaking an entire High 3-A structure is High 3-A.

I've got a ton of infinite statements as well. I think Reckoning War is definitely inconsistent with the rest of the cosmology

 

[ObberGobb]

I'm starting work on the Herald rescaling project (with quite a bit of much-appreciated help from Eseseso). Here are the characters that will be affected off the top of my head:

• Jane Foster
• Beta Ray Bill
• Gladiator
• Hyperion
• Silver Surfer
• Firelord
• Hulk
• Juggernaut
• Sentry
• Eric Masterson Thor/Thunderstrike (profile creation)
• Blue Marvel
• Thanos
• Ultron

If y'all think of any others that should be clearly and consistently included in that scaling chain, let me know! If I'm not mistaken, somebody is already working on fixing Ultron. If that person reads this let me know who you are so we can work on the chain together. From what I've found so far, High 3-A to Low 2-C looks like it'll replace the 3-C to High 3-A range we have now but that of course is subject to change. Some Heralds can also vary to much higher tiers on occasion but that's a case by case thing: this will mostly be concerned about establishing a baseline that's consistent and solidly supported.

I am planning on heavy profile revamps for Ultron, Thanos, Adam Warlock, Sentry, Blue Marvel, Anti-Man, and Silver Surfer. For some of these characters (definitely Thanos and Sentry) I will be scaling them to Skyfather level. For the others, I'm not quite sure yet. This thread won't interfer with yours though, and since it will take a while to do all the reading for it, I will wait until you have done this Herald one. I also want to do my thread evaluating High 1-B vs. Low 1-A vs. 1-A, since that will directly affect what Skyfather Tier even is.

Personally, I do not think a split is even necessary. Like I think Low 2-C is fine for basically all of them, I can't think of a character that would scale to High 3-A but not Low 2-C. I think the more accurate split is "God Heralds" being High 1-B/Low 1-A/1-A while normal Heralds are Low 2-C.

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

I am planning on heavy profile revamps for Ultron, Thanos, Adam Warlock, Sentry, Blue Marvel, Anti-Man, and Silver Surfer. For some of these characters (definitely Thanos and Sentry) I will be scaling them to Skyfather level. For the others, I'm not quite sure yet. This thread won't interfer with yours though, and since it will take a while to do all the reading for it, I will wait until you have done this Herald one. I also want to do my thread evaluating High 1-B vs. Low 1-A vs. 1-A, since that will directly affect what Skyfather Tier even is.

Personally, I do not think a split is even necessary. Like I think Low 2-C is fine for basically all of them, I can't think of a character that would scale to High 3-A but not Low 2-C. I think the more accurate split is "God Heralds" being High 1-B/Low 1-A/1-A while normal Heralds are Low 2-C.

I think that makes a lot of sense. I definitely agree with Skyfather tier for Thanos and Sentry (possibly true adamantium Ultron). I'll especially look into the split between God Heralds and regular Heralds (with Silver Surfer being an intermediate between the two)

 

[ObberGobb]

I think that makes a lot of sense. I definitely agree with Skyfather tier for Thanos and Sentry (possibly true adamantium Ultron). I'll especially look into the split between God Heralds and regular Heralds (with Silver Surfer being an intermediate between the two)

Yeah I think Silver Surfer might have some stuff on that level, but I'll have to look more closely

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

That's a great addition. I entirely forgot about Starbrand but he definitely belongs on that list. Pretty much everybody we have at 3-C right now is there because of a finite universe calc and will need to be High 3-A instead.

Captain Marvel, Universal Weapon, might work out as 3-C but will it work as H3-A/L2-C?

 

[Eseseso]

Yeah I think Silver Surfer might have some stuff on that level, but I'll have to look more closely

For Surfer, the Low 1-A stuff that comes to mind is:

1. Him fighting Knull evenly in a sword battle.

2. Him holding his own against Millenius (who is >=) Odin due to his willpower, with even Millenius complementing it.

Also, update the OP plz.

 

[Eseseso]

Also:

Scarlet Witch profile rehash that I'm working on (as I mentioned previously), and Doctor Strange profile rehash that I'm working on (as I mentioned previously)

 

[ObberGobb]

I will update when I get home