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Since both are commonly associated with Deltarune's Jevil, this would be interesting. Winner gets to be friends with Jevil. Speed equalized.
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Marx vs Sans
- Thread starter The_real_cal_howard
- Start date
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Sans negates durability HARD
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Sans can one-shot via soul destruction. Not voting yet.
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That's kinda misleading, he only makes one black hole at a time, it takes him "time" in the sense that he needs to open himself in two, and then make the black hole (which would be important here) and only his Soul form starts with it.Sawlan said:
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Both one shot, but sans will one shot first.
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Necro.
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Marx destroys it's a 4-A vs 8-C
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Necro
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Wait, dura ignore doesn't equal one-shot anymore. Sans sure as heck doesn't one shot Frisk in their battle.
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Uh, pretty sure Frisk resists soul manipulation.
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San's ATK is 1. As far as I know, Sans cannot be fought unless Level 19 is achieved, at which point, the HP of Frisk/Chara will be 92.
Sans is also explicitly described as the weakest monster in the Underground, & IIRC, don't all the other monsters have Durability Negation due to using Soul Attacks as well?
And yes, Frisk resists Soul Manipulation, but Sans is also unique in that his attacks inflict damage regardless of Frisk's DEF or Armor, unlike any other Underground enemy.
So given that he uses Soul Manipulation AND his attacks ignore DEF & any boosts to it & invincibility frames, Sans negates durability to a greater extent than any other monster in the Underground.
But he's still very explicitly weaker than all those other monsters, & his stats show this.
Yet nobody even comes CLOSE to one-shotting Frisk, Sans least of all. Sans needs about 92 hits to take out Frisk when he fights him.
So WHY would you argue that Sans should be doing more damage to someone else, based on Frisk's Resistance to Soul Manipulation when?:
1. Sans cannot OHKO him. To KO Frisk, he has to hit Frisk nearly 100 times. This is less easy to achieve against an opponent in a speed equalized match, especially someone like Marx who flies, teleports, has body control & can make Black Holes.
2. Sans, more than anyone else in the Underground, ignores Frisk's resistance, seeing as he always hits for the same amount, no matter Frisk's DEF & any invincibility they should have?
Also, Sans's usual defenses don't really help him.
>Marx attacks
>Sans goes lol and dodges to the side (As he canonically does in the battle) or teleports
>Sans still dies because Marx's range, because Marx's range is "Standard melee range physically, interstellar with projectiles and shockwaves (Scaling from Kirby)"
If Marx makes say, an explosion with his energy manipulation that's omnidirectional, & Sans's teleportation is instant, he'll almost certainly end up in the explosion's range.
Even the explosion or its blastwave or whatever is just dying out as Sans reappears, even a TINY fraction of 4-A power would be well in excess of what's needed to thoroughly kill Sans. Likewise, a black hole with that range would be similarly devastating to Sans.
Sans's teleportation range might be listed as Unknown, but I'd be skeptical that it's Interstellar range. Even if it was, him expecting to need to teleport that far before seeing Marx's first attack (The AoE of which could easily kill him.) is unlikely.
And on the offensive side, what stops Marx just teleporting away from Sans's attacks, especially in Speed Equalized.
Any non-physical attack from Marx has the range and power to kill Sans, teleportation or not, & Sans needed 92 hits to kill Frisk (Who could still dodge, may have had the turn system delaying them, & Frisk might heal, meaning more than 92 hits could've been needed for Frisk) in spite of being more durability negating than other monsters.
Given that Sans's AP is explicitly the weakest of any Undertale monster, & he still needed so many blows in spite of all his durability negation, I don't think he would kill Marx fast enough before Sans gets one shot, assuming Marx doesn't dodge/teleport in this speed equalized match.
I'm voting Marx, Medium-High Difficulty.
Worst case for Marx, both sides fail to avoid one anothers' attacks (Because Sans has Danmaku & Marx has interstellar non-physical attack range & black holes.) & they both die for an inconclusive.
Sans is also explicitly described as the weakest monster in the Underground, & IIRC, don't all the other monsters have Durability Negation due to using Soul Attacks as well?
And yes, Frisk resists Soul Manipulation, but Sans is also unique in that his attacks inflict damage regardless of Frisk's DEF or Armor, unlike any other Underground enemy.
So given that he uses Soul Manipulation AND his attacks ignore DEF & any boosts to it & invincibility frames, Sans negates durability to a greater extent than any other monster in the Underground.
But he's still very explicitly weaker than all those other monsters, & his stats show this.
Yet nobody even comes CLOSE to one-shotting Frisk, Sans least of all. Sans needs about 92 hits to take out Frisk when he fights him.
So WHY would you argue that Sans should be doing more damage to someone else, based on Frisk's Resistance to Soul Manipulation when?:
1. Sans cannot OHKO him. To KO Frisk, he has to hit Frisk nearly 100 times. This is less easy to achieve against an opponent in a speed equalized match, especially someone like Marx who flies, teleports, has body control & can make Black Holes.
2. Sans, more than anyone else in the Underground, ignores Frisk's resistance, seeing as he always hits for the same amount, no matter Frisk's DEF & any invincibility they should have?
Also, Sans's usual defenses don't really help him.
>Marx attacks
>Sans goes lol and dodges to the side (As he canonically does in the battle) or teleports
>Sans still dies because Marx's range, because Marx's range is "Standard melee range physically, interstellar with projectiles and shockwaves (Scaling from Kirby)"
If Marx makes say, an explosion with his energy manipulation that's omnidirectional, & Sans's teleportation is instant, he'll almost certainly end up in the explosion's range.
Even the explosion or its blastwave or whatever is just dying out as Sans reappears, even a TINY fraction of 4-A power would be well in excess of what's needed to thoroughly kill Sans. Likewise, a black hole with that range would be similarly devastating to Sans.
Sans's teleportation range might be listed as Unknown, but I'd be skeptical that it's Interstellar range. Even if it was, him expecting to need to teleport that far before seeing Marx's first attack (The AoE of which could easily kill him.) is unlikely.
And on the offensive side, what stops Marx just teleporting away from Sans's attacks, especially in Speed Equalized.
Any non-physical attack from Marx has the range and power to kill Sans, teleportation or not, & Sans needed 92 hits to kill Frisk (Who could still dodge, may have had the turn system delaying them, & Frisk might heal, meaning more than 92 hits could've been needed for Frisk) in spite of being more durability negating than other monsters.
Given that Sans's AP is explicitly the weakest of any Undertale monster, & he still needed so many blows in spite of all his durability negation, I don't think he would kill Marx fast enough before Sans gets one shot, assuming Marx doesn't dodge/teleport in this speed equalized match.
I'm voting Marx, Medium-High Difficulty.
Worst case for Marx, both sides fail to avoid one anothers' attacks (Because Sans has Danmaku & Marx has interstellar non-physical attack range & black holes.) & they both die for an inconclusive.
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Ffs stop saying that. Sans doesn't one shot anyone above 9-A.
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@Saikou the Lewd King: If that's directed at me, my apologies. I hadn't kept up with the changes to the relevant standards.
That said, I wasn't arguing Sans would be capable of one-shotting anyone. I argued he'd need more or less as many hits as to kill Frisk to kill Marx because he needed 92 hits to kill Frisk & is both the weakest in the Underground & negates durability seemingly more than anyone else in the underground; Given that, I think that Frisks's Soul Resistance isn't relevant to how capable of killing someone Sans is.
I don't disagree about what you said about Sans one-shotting anyone above 9-A or not, but solely out of curiousity, where were the relevant decisions made? I want to update my knowledge on such powers, abilities, etc.
Sorry for any bother.
That said, I wasn't arguing Sans would be capable of one-shotting anyone. I argued he'd need more or less as many hits as to kill Frisk to kill Marx because he needed 92 hits to kill Frisk & is both the weakest in the Underground & negates durability seemingly more than anyone else in the underground; Given that, I think that Frisks's Soul Resistance isn't relevant to how capable of killing someone Sans is.
I don't disagree about what you said about Sans one-shotting anyone above 9-A or not, but solely out of curiousity, where were the relevant decisions made? I want to update my knowledge on such powers, abilities, etc.
Sorry for any bother.
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Though I don't agree with everything, Marx fra.
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- Thread starter
- #25
@Imag. I'm pretty sure he was talking about Sans2345.
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I'm talking about whoever is the madman who keeps saying that.
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@Armorchompy: In the interest of having a thorough, proper debate, & bettering my ability to debate this & other future similar matches, I'm interested in knowing what you disagree with & how, if you're willing to explain.
(Gosh I'm wordy today.)
(Gosh I'm wordy today.)
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That's exactly what scares me lol
Anyway, you use hp to discuss, but hp is one of the few UT stats that are considered game mechanics
Also, while logically Marx's attacks should cause a shockwave strong enough to vaporize Sans, but I don't think it would work like that, since that doesn't happen in Kirby.
I think he takes this via the black hole specifically.
Anyway, you use hp to discuss, but hp is one of the few UT stats that are considered game mechanics
Also, while logically Marx's attacks should cause a shockwave strong enough to vaporize Sans, but I don't think it would work like that, since that doesn't happen in Kirby.
I think he takes this via the black hole specifically.
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