Mega Man CRT: Zero Era Profiles + Zero Intelligence

[AlloyAmi]

I'm not arguing against him not scaling, im arguing against the part in the profile that says hes weaker and o just think it should say "was able to defeat a dark elf amplified omega yada yada.

I don't see what contradicts characters of the same era overcoming strength IN THEIR LEAGUE with an ideal to fight for. your issue is that youre comparing completely different eras with technology that entirely outclasses the last. The best feat mega man had is defeating Rockman Shadow, a more advanced Rock of the future that not only was able to upgrade himself but destroy everything during his era in the future with NOTHING being able to stop him. and both mega man AND bass of the past are able to beat him despite everything just to show the extent of how far it can go even with technological limitations between eras, rockman shadow himself even expected this result with both sides, along with him directly admitting they are stronger even with him going all out and told mega man to continue fighting for whats right and not to simply just drown in strength like he did.

Zero saying too weak doesnt undermine the ideals point because they directly correlate the strength to there true selves and ideals which is my main argument . X like rock has something to fight for and thats what gives him constant growth in STRENGTH (as shown in AD exmaples above) to overcome foes and become stronger.

Copy X MK 2 saying Zero is in his reappearance skilled doesn't really contradict my points from before because there are multiple strength related claims regarding him during my guardans point? I'm not arguing Zero is all strength. I'm arguing Zero is strength AND skill so either being mentioned should not be a contradiction to the other. Zero 3 where copy X reappears is also over a year after the Z1 fight, hes just talking about zero in general, this is before he even rematches him. and again, for a literal perfect copy of x, who we know is able to constantly match zero, zero does not show any struggle during these fights at all, even for a final boss in the first game and IMMEDIATELY after proceeds to fight an entire hoard of enemies for a YEAR strait.

Weil is bluffing about both things, because the dark elf is also what would reactivate omega (heal him up) so he could continue fighting, but at its current state he cant do anything after everything. He then tries to guilt trip/manipulate zero into not destroying it as hell be stuck in a fake copy forever and tries to use his original connection to the body. Zero not being able to do anything regarding the dark elf thats completely fine due to just being within omega and leaving his body isnt a contradiction as this is a really weakened zero struggling to stand who just finished fighting 3 phases of an amped omega + the entire stage. foes amplified by the dark elf, ESPECIALLY omega whos regarding to have equal power to it should be much stronger then the dark elf alone and zero has beaten all these dark elf amplified foes you speak of + youre ignoring how haxy the dark elf is as well.

too much or too little strength regarding the guardians is just headcanon, they directly correlated fun to strength as i showed above. leviathans dialogue is literally "yeah hes strong but youre much more fun hehe" directly suggesting more strength is involved an zero makes them feel different. The japanese text even says.

"Even when I fight, I just don't feel fired up."
"Unlike when it's with you... hehe..."

and what fires them up? Zero strength as again i showed in the previous reply, the strength AND pain is what makes the guardians feel ALIVE. Also the guardians can damage omega, he just regens said damage. While the guardians are weaker as I evidentally proved in my previously reply, I think everyone is still on a downscalable degree. However Zero by the end of the game is so strong he not only completely defeats this form WHILE amplified by the dark elf (which harpuia couldn't dent) but BYPASSES his regen ENTIRELY with this entire phase just being treated like a warm up.

I can continue arguing the potential point, but out of curiousity I checked the JP version and asked setto about it and instead it translates more to "power/performance" instead of potential, so zeros new body at minimum power is equal to omega and even surpass it with one way you can translate it being:

"However the body that houses Zero's soul demonstrates power/performance equal to or even surpassing the original"

Ragnoroks fall wasn't what threatened/killed Zero, What killed Zero is making Weil's core self destruct. Which as we know, self destruction is extremely destructive and is a far stronger thing characters + several different areas even, are able to do as a last ditch effort. And I never said Model O isn't canon, i just said its an irrelevant bonus thing you can do in the game that ultimately isn't important in the story. I'm just saying ZX presents inconsistencies with what we already see previously in the actual zero games implying that both X and Zero's power are needed to match other biometals like the ones of the guardians along with random ass Model A being able to defeat a timeskip Aile/Vent, kinda undermining all of Z+X's stuff considering they canonically have their strength AND intelligence according to lore as well so takes that as you will.

X DiVE from my experience hasn't had any crazy contradictions, and this event diectly goes hand in hand with the themes of zero being the true zero irregardles of body from Zero 3, If anything, it helps expand on rather vague details on how some things are done, such as General self destructing to stop the Final Weapon and how Cyber Peacock was going to destroy the network system by destroying relevant programs within it.

and Xdive doesnt need to say "Z-era Zero", contextually its revisiting the themes of Zero 3 as its even all about omega, literally called Messiah event. and we know its refering to z era zero because they directly call him a fake/replica several times but his data/soul is that of the true zero, which x era zero wouldnt fall under.

I hope you feel better regarding anything going on irl.

 

[Smashtwig]

Okay either I feel like we're going circles at this point and we've just reached an impass that we just won't budge on, which is normal in these kinds of debates. So I'll try to just bring this to an agreeable resolution quickly and just call it at that because this won't be going anywhere, at least currently.

From what I've read, we both are in the agreeance that it's a combination of both skill and stats- what we disagree in is the details and specifics. To be honest, this conversation is sorta meaningless considering how little this affects the profile. But regardless I'll try to respond to your arguments.

Soul Stuff
I've read through these Rockman Shadow scans- and I'm not very convinced. Yes, there was nothing that can stop him in the future- but "the future" is meaningless if we don't know a thing of what it contains, example in Naruto- nothing would be able to stop the Nine-Tails in say, Part 1, but Hashirama could yet he's not in "the future" that is Part 1. The rest of the scans only say that the guy lost fair and square- the only thing that supports your claim is the "title of Strongest", which is just vague as again "strong" can mean a multitude of things. If someone became Champion of a boxing weight class, they're the "strongest boxer" since that's what "champion" means, but they could have just won that title bout while still having the weaker build.

Even if I'm wrong about this, a hypothetically evil Mega Man X would be defeated by Classic Mega Man if your logic is correct, because Mega Man has these "good ideals" and X wouldn't. Yet Dr. Light, who knows of Classic Mega Man- says "no" to all of that- claiming that a moralless X would be unstoppable if he was released before testing was complete.

Copy X
It seems like most of your argument for this section is just that the Guardian stuff trumps it so I'll keep this short. I don't see how this taking place a year after Z1 changes anything. I don't get what you mean by "talking about Zero in general" the only sentence he says about Zero in that conversation is about how skilled he is.

Saying Zero doesn't struggle is not really something that you can apply here when Zero barely shows any emotional fluctuation to begin with- of course everything would seem "effortless" and when your only counterpoint was him saying "too weak"- that's countered by the Copy X saying that Zero is incredibly skilled before their rematch, as you said.


Guardian Stuff

Correlating "fun" linearly with "strength" when "having fun" is an emotion isn't concrete, but I'm going to assume that for the sake of the argument that it's true

Didn't you argue that Harpuia was only able to damage Omega because Zero "weakened him"?

"The only thing Omega had going for him was regen, and Harpuia just got a free combo after he regenned a bit but omega was already weakened by Zero, so no i wouldnt use that at all."

I don't know why you're using a scan of that same scene to now prove that the Guardians are a valid threat to Omega. Of course, that would mean that I retract some of my statement when I used it as evidence to say that Zero and the Guardians are rivals.

Weil Stuff
Regardless of whether Weil was bluffing about certain things, I'd argue he was arguing about his control over Reploid kind- you argue it was multipurpose, I'll just look at the fact that.
X says "while the Dark Elf's power is weak- time to finish what you started a century ago". Both Zero and Omega Zero are tired, and Dark Elf is this difference maker.

X DiVE
Well, it is a Zero 3 focused event, but it's also a Zero focused event in general. They are focusing on the themes of Zero 3- which is just "who Zero really is", which can refer to both X and Zero eras.

They don't call Zero the fake- they just say that they don't care if Zero is a replica or not. Omega says that Zero is the fake because to his knowledge there's only one "real Zero body" which he currently inhabits, when in X Dive there can be multiple "real Zeros"

Other Stuff
Also Omega controlling his arms is... regeneration...? Is that not just body control as he detaches those arms for attack patterns and puts em back? Zero could just be damaging him to the point where can't control the arms anymore? Ngl bro I'm done this is going way too deep into the powerscaling mindset.

Admittedly your find on the OCW translation is a good one. But I have to ask, why does it say "power/performance" instead of just "power"- is there something with the kanji? Performance is a much more broad word that can apply to just efficency or just being optimized to not have problems. It also leads to more questions about your argument being centered around the soul when the statement applies to his physical being.

ZX

Again, none of this matters when stacked up against the ZX Era things. Even if I'm wrong about literally everything else, ZX just overturns all of it with direct evidence that Omega Zero with the Dark Elf should be stronger than Z-Era Zero, even if it's only slightly or a miniscule amount.

I get that there's a bunch of weird stuff in there, heck- I really don't like the whole Model A defeating Model ZX thing and I'd probably say some excuse saying that ZX held back- evidenced by it one-shotting the miniboss Model A couldn't seem to handle. Pseudoroids being able to damage ZX doesn't bother me, it just proves that the Guardians aren't that far behind (see the previous reply of giving them a rating of 1 or whatever). Regardless of whether or not you feel is inconsistent- some of which I agree and some I don't- it doesn't change the fact that- what happened... happened.

Ragnarok's core was destroyed by Zero- it wasn't self-destruction, the thing you linked to straight up says that. But, arguing semantics like this isn't productive, so I'll will just counter with the point that I had last time, that Model W, pieces of Ragnarok, are stronger than Model Z. It doesn't matter if Model O is some content irrelevant to the main story or not- the fight between a non-Dark Elf Omega and Vent- who is stronger than Zero- happened, and they can give each other a solid fight. Heck, even IN the main story it's mentioned to be stronger or compared to Model W.

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Resolution

If you wanna just have the profile just go- as you say- "was able to defeat a dark elf amplified omega yada yada" instead of what it currently says (being declared "stronger than Zero"), I'm fine with that- since we've reached this impasse, I can probably just have it link to an imgur gallery to what "Dark Elf amplified Omega" actually means- on top of going through the whole stage and boss rush.

Don't get me wrong I understand what you're saying, we're just at an impasse of interpretation at this point and we can just agree to disagree, this is quite literally a "which Majin Buu is stronger" level debate now. I think this is probably gonna be my last message (i know- we all say that and come back anyways) but I have an X profile to work on lol.

 

[AlloyAmi]

Note: This is before you posted your reply and i started typing it before so ill get to what you said later

Overall this is what i think z zeros ap should look something like.

At least Solar System level (Should be far stronger than himself in the X Era through centuries of Accelerated Development and upgrades. His new design represents how much technologically upgraded he is from the X Era, along with it being refered to as an entirely new model called an Advanced Reploid Body. Can fight and defeat all three forms, of a Dark Elf amplified Omega, who's regarded as the strongest enemy in the Z Era. His copy body is also regarded to be just as powerful if not stronger then the original and is even suggested to be stronger due to his data being that of the the true Zero who's power is unknown and infinite), Higher with Cyber Elves, Forms, and Chips, Far Higher with Self-Destruction

 

[Chariot190]

I have played every game except X Dive brought up, and idk wtf either of you are actually trying to argue. Someone make a concise with the main points and what theyre meant to argue.

 

[AlloyAmi]

I have played every game except X Dive brought up, and idk wtf either of you are actually trying to argue. Someone make a concise with the main points and what theyre meant to argue.

im trying to argue zero isnt weaker then omega and if anything is suggested to be stronger while also being immensely skilled. Smashtwig is arguing zero is weaker and just outskills

 

[Chariot190]

im trying to argue zero isnt weaker then omega and if anything is suggested to be stronger while also being immensely skilled. Smashtwig is arguing zero is weaker and just outskills

There's no way that's the whole argument, I'm seeing walls of text I'd expect from me being dropped.

Make a concise list of "For Vs. Against" with each point shortened.

Im aware of the X Dive scan you mentioned which does in fact suggest that, but from the looks of things there's way more to it than that.

 

[Smashtwig]

I'll try to do my best to make it concise, but as I am typing this, Mig said that he'd do it and ngl my brain is cooked from this

I'm just tryna make the X profile rn

 

[AlloyAmi]

the future" is meaningless if we don't know a thing of what it contains,

It should just be a future classic era with the same characters and if anything more advanced technology by then.

also again its confined by eras and i directly said stuff within there era still within their league so i dont know why youre still on this cross era argument, there comes a point where the gap just becomes just too absurdly big once we start jumping entire eras, they have pretty good AD and reactive evolution but not THAT good, especially with the new tiers the x era is gonna get soon.

I don't get what you mean by "talking about Zero in general" the only sentence he says about Zero in that conversation is about how skilled he is.

the skill thing is him just generally stating zeros incredibly skilled. There's no reason why he would admit to being weaker (especially since he can try again and show otherwise soon) and im just saying hes just saying a general statement about zero. no where is he talking about his fight in specific. Him being skilled also doesn't contradict nor debunk him also being strong as well as several scans i have shown have evidentally shown hes clearly one of the stronger characters in the entire z series with characters clearly noting his strength. Zero being very emotionless doesnt change how he still shows pain and struggle, at the start of zero 2, hes always in the weakened position even at full hp, in zero 3 hes sent kneeling by the power of the dark elf and is struggling to stand. copy x he absolutely did not struggle on and very clearly viewed him as weak even at full power.

Didn't you argue that Harpuia was only able to damage Omega because Zero "weakened him"?

I said him being able to efficiently damage him was due to the opening zero gave him to give him a free hit as he was recovering so he was able to put him back in the damaged state again with less damage.

X says "while the Dark Elf's power is weak- time to finish what you started a century ago". Both Zero and Omega Zero are tired, and Dark Elf is this difference maker.

I don't see what relevance this has, obviously a heavily weakened zero would struggle against a completely fine dark elf thats protecting omega with a forcefield/release of energy.

Well, it is a Zero 3 focused event, but it's also a Zero focused event in general. They are focusing on the themes of Zero 3- which is just "who Zero really is", which can refer to both X and Zero eras.

You and I both know it isn't refering to X era with how the dialogue is refering to his replica state even stated from rico (whos beyond the verse) and X dive is rather consistent on its stuff between eras. the fake zero is the copy body and they have the data of that.

Also Omega controlling his arms is... regeneration...? Is that not just body control as he detaches those arms for attack patterns and puts em back? Zero could just be damaging him to the point where can't control the arms anymore? Ngl bro I'm done this is going way too deep into the powerscaling mindset.

regeneration healing whatever you wanna call it, its very clear that omega is recovering his damage with how he has no scratches from the other 2 guardians and he rather easily recovered the damage he got from both zero and harpuia. in the end of the game zero screws this phase while amped entirely and breaks a piece off omega.

ZX stuff just like undeniably has contradictions to the source materials scaling and undermines lore to a degree but idk how to really treat it (+ i havent really research it either), but the most i can say is that its kinda just inconsistent with past stuff. my main point regarding specifically omega in that game is that hes more like bonus external content vs actually plot changing stuff so while its still canon the inconsistency it presents makes me just prefer using the actual stuff with the important story beats.

Ragnarok's core was destroyed by Zero- it wasn't self-destruction, the thing you linked to straight up says that.

Yes it is, its literally him destroying the core that weil fused with that sustained ragnorok to explode now as its connected to weil. Self destruction is literally done via overloading their cores or internals or whatever iirc.

Admittedly your find on the OCW translation is a good one. But I have to ask, why does it say "power/performance" instead of just "power"- is there something with the kanji? Performance is a much more broad word that can apply to just efficency or just being optimized to not have problems. It also leads to more questions about your argument being centered around the soul when the statement applies to his physical being.

i forgor, it should just be power. heres an imgur with the full thing.
That was cuz I typed the reply when I used both chatgpt and deepl to see what it said but i confronted setto about it and power is the deepl one he confirmed the translation of while performance was chat gpt though i will say its not completely invalid either and can be an alternate version but i still think it would support my side because why would a body thats literally the same affect his skill? more performance just seems to go with power in this context and this goes with the real zeros AD getting stronger stuff

also their power is not confined by their physical being, as their true state of being is their data forms/souls/whatever you wanna call it and bodies are merely vessels that data possesses and powers and what the body exactly is doesnt really matter as notably showed in mega man 10 where past robot masters in the wily stages are just a bunch of identical blocks things but are still fighting and using their weaponry like they would normally. same with the doc robots being able to cover a multitute of robot masters even with the same styled body and even stuff like weaknesses are affected based on their data. the weaknesses of the blocks also varies depending on whos data its using at the moment

 

[Migue79]

I'll try to do my best to make it concise, but as I am typing this, Mig said that he'd do it and ngl my brain is cooked from this

I'm just tryna make the X profile rn

Blyat, I need to re-read everything to do that.

Anyways, maybe one thing I'd like to bring up is that I looked up what the kanji used for "potential" was in the OCW and it seems to be "性能" (seinou) which according to Weblio means:

1. The nature and capabilities of a machine or tool. Also, the ability of a machine to perform a task. "A car with good performance" "Improve performance"
2. Innate ability. "Spending one's life following the orders of the master" (Hanagai, The End of Shigeemon)

Whatever this info is worth for the debate...

 

[Smashtwig]

Im not gonna address everything you said because I'm really cooked (maybe I'll address it later? idk bro) but there's one more thing I want to raise with your AP justification.

Your AP draft states that Omega is the strongest enemy in the Zero Era- and that's supported by the X DiVE bio saying that he's Weil's ultimate weapon of destruction. This implies that Omega is Weil's strongest thing, which would include Ragnarok- Model W is stronger than Model Z. Therefore, Model O, as Flammole said- should be stronger than Model W, therefore stronger than Model Z. It's not really my personal opinion on how things work but it's another way to scale things

Your Copy X point still doesn't explain why copy x could have just said "Zero is mad strong" instead of skilled when he experienced first hand how strong he is (which according to your claim was a stomp)- Copy X doesn't have to admit Zero is stronger than him and still call him that strong. Would he not use his first hand experience over observations made from a distance?

ZX having "contridictions to the source materials" doesn't make sense when it literally is the source material. Literally made by the same guys who made the Zero series. Obviously Model W is important to the story, and if Ragnarok is not Weil's ultimate weapon, but Omega is, then Omega should be stronger than Model W, which is superior to Model Z



As for the other stuff- yeah man I'm just gonna let Mig consolidate things- I probably can make a counterarguement but i think its going in circles and I have anxiety to take care of


Again bro, plz read this- If you wanna just have the profile just go- as you say- "was able to defeat a dark elf amplified omega yada yada" instead of what it currently says (being declared "stronger than Zero"), I'm fine with that- since we've reached this impasse, I can probably just have it link to an imgur gallery to what "Dark Elf amplified Omega" actually means- on top of going through the whole stage and boss rush.

 

[AlloyAmi]

Ragnarok isn't an enemy first of all its a structure and i dont see what contradicts omega still being the ultimate weapon of destruction considering that it literally caused the entire elf wars that in 4 years had more destruction and casualties then he entirety of the maverick wars. ragnorok was just something he was gonna use to destroy the last area with nature that being area zero and i once again state ragnaroks fall is not what threatened or took out zero. also youre missing some context regarding model w, that it also had the soul of weil and thats what helped it reach the level of its power. ragnorok itself is just a structure, the biometals give power via the souls and data of who it contains.

same company being the source also doesnt exclude it from having rather undeniable contradictions, this applys to anything really.

also i dont really think an imgur explaining what a dark elf amplified omega is needed, its pretty self explanatorily shown several times.

 

[Smashtwig]

Okay, so Weil's soul is what makes Model W so strong, yet Weil doesn't have anything to defend, he doesn't have good ideals. How is he stronger than Model Z who does have good ideals?

Ragnarok is a weapon, equipped with a laser and everything, it's weaker than Omega who is the ultimate weapon. Model W, therefore Ragnarok, is stronger than Model Z- ergo Omega even stronger.

To be honest I don't really know what contridictions you're talking about, the one thing that comes to mind is Model A "winning" against ZX which isnt a contridiction to anything besides our preference for ZX winning, and ZX fighting Pseudoroids just lines up with Zero fighting people like Phantom and being be damaged by them.

Either way regardless of if you find it inconsistent, the fight happened. Non Dark Elf Omega fights Vent. It may not be a part of the main story (even though it was mentioned to be that strong during the main story)- but it's still canonical nonetheless.

Next we're gonna claim that Yusuke in the penultimate chapter of YYH is stronger than the interdimensional cannon that was going to end him because that was not part of the main story either.

Still feel like Zero being stronger undermines the narrative. The message was that Zero isn't Zero because of his powers or how great they are, Zero is Zero because of what he uses his powers for.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I agree with Smashtwig on this.

 

[AlloyAmi]

Okay, so Weil's soul is what makes Model W so strong, yet Weil doesn't have anything to defend, he doesn't have good ideals. How is he stronger than Model Z who does have good ideals?

evil thing strong for the game, and im pretty sure albert did some schenigans regarding its creation as well. either way ragnorok is not what would power it, it would be weil as thats how biometals work, power of hate and spite is no stranger to the series either and ragnarok is long destroyed and would just be pieces of structure what it was before would be irrelevant as its literally just a bunch of rock shards now. you also misunderstood my ideals point, thats what gives them the strength to constantly grow and completely overcome things stronger.

And I just realized how problematic your zx argument is because its quite literal circular scaling.

• zeros copy body is outright stated to be at least equal to or to surpasses the power of his og body which is omega
• we see hes directly strong enough to harm and outright overpower stuff like dark elf amped omega phase 1 which harpuia couldn't dent
• Zero in the z series he should have Accelerated development thats makes him stronger with constant growth in POWER i showed SEVERAL examples of in my first reply, making him constantly get stronger like he always has and has actual showings and statements of getting stronger in z series alone and should be even stronger then he was in the elf wars as he accomplishes the same feat but this time with more phases and primarily alone. Literally zero 3 alone shows him have a growth in power from the intro stage to the final boss in how we see him handle the first phase (along with the harpuia thing).
  
  and yet base omega is still stronger? This even goes against ZX itself as as accepted on this wiki, we have a literal power growth imgur detailing ailes growth in the series and with lore this should be upscaling Z era zero, and yet BASE omega is still stronger because of a one off statement? its almost like its just a bonus super boss that doesnt care about the narrative so theyll gas it up due to it's status in game being that of a superboss. The same way SMT V trumpeter starts gassing up the Demi Fiend as the strongest to the degree that no one even compares to him, and hes infamously an extremely strong superboss (even being considered one of the HARDEST BOSSES of all rpgs regarding his bonus appearance as a boss fight in DDS2), and while he is EXTREMELY strong even in canon, theres still foes like Matter Lucifer that obviously would be stronger. The difference with the ZX one is not only that its a a gass up but its contradictory to narrative showings as well. at the very least demi fiend is someone from outside the universe the game takes place in so he doesnt conflict much.

Overall, this is not only circular scaling but is outright contradictory scaling to what both Z and ZX shows all stemming from an optional super boss that has no major impact on the narrative. I also already went over why this doesnt undermine the narrative but goes along with the themes. They try to attach accomplishments and feats to an original body but only the true soul can truly bring out the true powers and capabilities of the character with an imposter soul such as omegas never reaching that same level as hes simply not zero. as zero said even back in x2, theres only 1 zero.

 

[Smashtwig]

Ngl I am confused on what your claim for the soul stuff is anymore, I thought it was the primary reason why Zero is stronger at all, not that he grew to be stronger. But if hate and anger is a valid way to gain power- I don't see why it isn't as valid as the good ideals granting strength. In the imgur gallery you mentioned (which i dont necessarily agree with completely), the protagonist got power as their hate grew. To be honest I'm willing to just drop this point and just give up trying to explain it.

Zero's copy body, according to the OCW, says "improved performance", not "power" (I dont even see the character for "chikara" but maybe i missed it)- "performance" can mean a whole bunch of things, like efficiency or proficiency.

But even assuming it says power- Weil's made it clear that through upgrades, he was able to draw out the full power of Omega Zero's body- implying that Zero couldn't when he had inhabited that body- how can we expect him to draw out the full power of this new body to match Omega when he only had for around a year when he's had amnesia for the first half of the year and still doesn't get the full picture by the end either? We're talking about physical bodies here now, not souls- so using that argument when its not even about that doesnt really work.

You might need to outline where the circular part is as I don't see it at all. Yeah, Zero can damage Dark Elf Phase 1 Omega when Harpuia couldn't, that makes Zero stronger than Harpuia (see how its not too bad considering the reply where I label the Guardians at 1, Zero at 2, Omega at 3). But you don't need to scale above a person to hurt them, a weaker person can still hurt a stronger person. This is how Phantom- a Guardian- can hurt Zero (even if Zero held back you can't just hold back durability, that doesnt make sense)

Zero in z3 grew (though using Andrew as proof when the guy has memory issues confounds me). Okay, don't see the circular part there, he needed to grow if he wanted to fight Omega. He did indeed grow to level necessary to contend, and he beat him. Again, you don't need to be stronger than someone to beat them in a fight. It's not an arm wrestling contest. All the imgur gallery is proving is that Omega was (unquantifiably) stronger or as strong than all of that growth the entire time. He's just tacked on at the top (or around enf of ZX’s level) of the scaling chain instead of the middle like you imply. If you argue that the other Biometals can win too- remember that the protagonist is Double Megamerging- combining X’s power with another Biometal- and obviously X is a big factor in the power department that should still be able to damage Omega.

Here's another thing I didn't realize. Serpent tells Flammole that there is “even more powerful Biometal in the earth”- which supports the Model O > Model W as that's the subject matter. But let's just take Model W out of the picture here. Serpent calls Model X and Model Z disappointing and compares them to useless tin cans. The fact that Serpent is calling Model O “powerful”- at all- puts it above Model Z, which he calls “pathetic” (see imgur gallery).

When it comes to the narrative I think we just reached an impasse. I think it undermines, and you don't. Stories are inherently subjective when it comes to interpretation.

At this point we can just change things to “he beat Omega so he definitely scales”, and drop the weaker or stronger part or whatever because this is never going to have a conclusion. People debate this all the time like a Majin Buu debate and it's pointless to go in circles. I feel like I've already addressed everything you had to say and we've been repeating the same thing in different ways over and over.

 

[AlloyAmi]

Zero's copy body, according to the OCW, says "improved performance", not "power" (I dont even see the character for "chikara" but maybe i missed it)- "performance" can mean a whole bunch of things, like efficiency or proficiency.

this still debunks you, a body showing better performance means its superior then then the previous one, and has nothhing to do with skill.

But even assuming it says power- Weil's made it clear that through upgrades, he was able to draw out the full power of Omega Zero's body- implying that Zero couldn't when he had inhabited that body-

and with the extra context from xdive, he failed. We know he's outright wrong in certain regards as he constantly undermines his copy body as well, obviously the villains gonna view their stuff as superior. He tried modifying omega to unless zeros full power but omega cannot harness the true power of zero because he simply ISNT zero.

how can we expect him to draw out the full power of this new body to match Omega when he only had for around a year when he's had amnesia for the first half of the year and still doesn't get the full picture by the end either?

Zero dropped this stuff by zero 2, and keep in mind zero 3 was the original ending. It's clear the body was meant to surpass the original.

(though using Andrew as proof when the guy has memory issues confounds me

this doesnt change the point and intention that he clearly was still able to see the growth within zero

would like to mention the quote below him here also correlates zero hidden potential with statistic growth as well regarding past points so he is constantly growing throughout the series. I once again ask you to review the AD examples to see how good and rapid it is and how it correlates to strength.

All the imgur gallery is proving is that Omega was (unquantifiably) stronger or as strong than all of that growth the entire time. He's just tacked on at the top (or around enf of ZX’s level) of the scaling chain instead of the middle like you imply.

Which again makes NO sense, because according to you model z completely ap stomps a zero who should be equal to minimum or above base omega and has since grown since. believe it not you can only go so far with skill, and we know zero strength is notable because he not only defeats omegas amped state that couldnt be dented by harpuia, but he OVERPOWERS its recovering abilities entirely unlike in the intro stage where he fought it in base. base omega being stronger then zero + all of ailes growth absolutely is circular, especially when zero literally overpowers a phase where hes amped with the dark elf and its even just seen as a warm up.

Serpent calls Model X and Model Z disappointing and compares them to useless tin cans.

Sigma also calls X a tiny bug, guess who wins in the end. Model O also loses, and we have no direct way to know how the fight went down as it is again an optional superboss. For all we know they could have obiterated them like in those combo videos.

All of the ZX stuff is literally just one off mentions to allude to the superboss point which i explained above and you completely failed to address.

Base omega being stronger literally cant work because of this at all, therefore questioning the validity of this scaling as youre contradicting major story beats for a bonus super boss. The most I can agree on is Omegas resurrected appearance in ZX is stronger due to the time passing and data ressurections in the series becoming stronger. In fact, hidden phantom in the zero 3 comes back stronger then he was in zero 1 with a bunch of new techniques. however at that point, that isnt zero base omega, thats zx base omega.

 

[Smashtwig]

Efficiency, performance, and proficiency being higher doesn't mean that you're stronger than a guy, if Person A can lift a dumbbell in the most energy conserving way possible (say, lifting it closer to their center of mass), it doesn't mean Person A is stronger than Person B who has more muscle mass but decides to lift the dumbbell in the most inefficient way possible (further away from their mass)- Person B is still stronger. So long as it doesn't say power, my point remains that Zero is not necessarily stronger. You can even argue that increased performance can mean more accurate and precise degrees of movements though it's a stretch.

Wait, so now you're saying that the physical body that the person inhabits is the primary difference...? Wasn't the argument that the soul is the difference maker? Or was it what allows for AD to happen (which I can’t find the proof that it’s the soul in specific)? Maybe I was mistaken along the way. Whatever it is, Zero 3 may have intended to have been the original ending... but- it wasn't, that is the fact- the developers went on to make three more Zero/ZX games- those games exist and can’t just be ignored.

I wasn't saying that accelerated growth doesn't exist man, I was just confused as to why you would use Andrew of all people as your proof. And wait, the AD is in the physical body like Cerveau says not the soul? I straight up don’t even know what’s going on at this point.

I don't recall saying that Model Z stomps Zero, if I did, then I was wrong. If you were referring to that imgur gallery- I didn't even make that and I in particular don't even think the growth was as big as the gallery seems to suggest. For real though point to me where I said that (straight up looked at every single time I said “ZX” and I can't find where I say that Model Z stomps Zero) because I have no recollection man my brain is fried and I genuinely don't think you made that up. (Also, Z3 and Z4 bosses show up in ZX and they don’t get stomped either and can hurt Model ZX- so if you really want to go with Model Z being so strong there’s the counter)

I also didn't say that Zero doesn't scale to Omega at all as I have previously said- you're right, in most cases- including this one- skill can only take you so far. But just because Person A beat a guy that hits at say, 300 joules, doesn't mean they have to be hitting at 300 joules- they could be at say, 250 joules. I'm really not sure why we're even arguing when the gap is likely not even that significant either way. But if you really insist on this... arm regeneration thing on Phase 1 Omega as your main proof of Zero overpowering final phase Omega, I'll address it. I don't get how overpowering Phase 1 = overpowering final phase makes sense but sure.

• First off, this is Phase 1 Omega + Dark Elf- I don't think I ever said that Zero isn't stronger than this, but for the sake of the argument fine, let's say that I did and I'll double down on it.
• This... is NOT regeneration. I have no idea how this is even the case at all- and I cannot believe I am in a world where I'm arguing whether or not putting together detachable toy arms counts as regeneration. I need to touch grass.
  • The scene you are using is when Omega drops his detachable arms, and then, remotely picks them back up and reattaches them back. These arms are consistently depicted to be able to go off on their own and do attacks from a remotely before returning to the torso- they are designed to do so. Keep in mind, in the game, which you are using as your evidence, these arms never attach themselves to the torso, they are consistently floating detached from the shoulder in all animations
  • This is like if I made a model robot out of Legos, took a piece of it off, and then put it back on, that is not regeneration for the Lego robot. Legos are just designed to be easily taken apart and be put back together like that. (dude this sounds so versus brainrot)
  • An example in media is Iron Man's Hulkbuster in the MCU, the scene where he popped off the arm and replaced it with a new one- that isn’t regeneration, that's just how the suit is designed so that it can easily replace or reattach body parts. In fact, almost every gadget in real life does this- when we're trying to fix a problem inside a phone- we take off a whole bunch of things keeping it together. This is no different.
  • All this is- is that Zero attacked Omega's torso to the point where he lost control of his arms and drops them, like how we'd get tired of using our own arms when we work out. They were never even attached to the rest of his torso anyways, so there was no reattaching anyways to prove regeneration.
  • Another problem I have in this is that Zero "bypassing" this "regeneration" would mean that he would have to one shot the guy, because Omega is constantly reattaching his arms- thus "regenerating", so any single hit would have been "regenerated"- Inti can very easily create a boss that goes down in one hit, any game developer could- it's literally changing one integer in the code. Since you care about author intent as shown in your Zero 3 being the original ending point, why wouldn’t they portray Phase 1 as something Zero can one shot? Inti has done that before as shown with the Golem in Zero 1 getting one shot by the Z-Saber. Regeneration Negation is a hax ability, not an AP thing.

Update on this: Offsite Ami told me he was referring to the scene where Omega gets up after Zero depletes his health bar was regeneration- and that the Guardians can hurt Omega and the only reason he "doesn't have a scratch" because he was healing it off. Just becaue some internal lights turn on (which also happen when he launches energy shots) before Omega "gets up" again doesn't mean healing and he could just have not have take much damage in the first place- this happens all the time in games where you beat them and turns out the cutscene you didn't do much at all. Inti does this with Blaster Master and Gunvolt iX too.

Serpent calling Models X and Z "tin can scrapings" was immediately right after he one-shotted them- not literally right before he fights them like Sigma. A chunk of the conversation was about how easy it was to defeat the two heroes. Serpent is NOT Sigma- when he calls the protagonist weak, it's AFTER he has information that suggests so such as oneshotting Model Z- it's a logical deduction. And then he goes on say that something else, that being Model O, is "strong". He is a researcher, the same way how Weil is an expert in the robotics field. They aren't stupid, they're arrogant. Arrogant people have something to be arrogant about- they don’t delude themselves to do so- and both Weil and Serpent SEE what their enemies can do, and make a conclusion off of it- (Serpent is more convincingly so as he literally beats them first before doing so).

How does Phantom get stronger? Showing new techniques does NOT make a person stronger. If a guy decides to learn kung fu, they don't automatically become stronger because they learned new hand traps or tripping moves. If your proof is simply that Zero grew, then Zero just didn't grow that much to warrant the assumption that Phantom grew stronger. Guardians cannot scratch Dark Elf Omega, Zero hurt the guy to the point where he lets go of his arms out of tire. Yes, Zero is stronger, but he's not stomping Guardians either- ZX proves this by not being able to one shot Pseudoroids who use half of a Guardian Biometal. Even Zero 3 supports this with the Guardians being able to damage a weakened Omega- if the gap was really as big as you imply- even a weakened, tired Omega Zero should simply no sell all of these attacks if the gap is that big (1st Phase Omega already no sells without the Dark Elf). Another example of how data resurrections shouldn't automatically be assumed to be stronger would be the X1/X2 Bosses in Xtreme that you used to show how X grew in strength- they were “easily defeated”. Zero’s exact sentence: “don't forget that even though they are past data, they are still very strong”, denotes that they are “still” very strong- and contextually this means they weren’t stronger when they are being used again- rather that they are of the same strength as before.

I'm using something from a primary source game that I believe doesn't contradict the story beats (which we will obviously not agree on at this time). A primary source game that takes time out of its way during the main story to hype Model O up- they make Omega difficult (when they could have made it a one shot as seen with Zero one-shotting the Golem in Z1)- and as a reward give the protagonist Model OX (X+Omega) that is stated to be the strongest Megamerge (including ZX, which is X+Zero, meaning that Omega > Zero)- which you can only use after you beat the game (where the protagonist grows significantly). This statement comes from the Mega Man ZX Official Guide. Official. You cannot get more credible than what the people in charge are officially saying.

And it’s not like Model O can grow on its own either… it’s just a rock- with no user- and hasn’t been used to the point where it’s considered a rock at first glance, unless the argument is that all of these guys grow in power by existing… which… I wouldn’t know what to say if so, especially when you say that X/Zero grow stronger as they fight, not passively. Also, to pre-emptively counter anything you might say about Omega growing stronger- I doubt him going crazy in an Area N echochamber counts as “fighting” either. There's no reason why Model O (ergo Omega) would have gotten stronger in the timeframe between Zero and ZX when there is no method for the growth to happen

 

[Banjo77]

The Megaman.EXE Z saber chip AP stuff should be removed, this chip doesnt appear in the series until Battle Network 4 and the page itself scales him to tier 2 by battle network 2, so the point on it being consistent is just outright wrong.

Ignoring how outdated the BN pages are (along with that 4-B rating on that page entirely), the series' really shouldn't be crosscaled to each other due to different level of feats and technology going on in both series', and its really just meant to be a fun thing you can do with both copies of the games and is not intended to present them at a specific power level.

Something that I would add, is that reploid bodies by the Elf Wars/Z era are considered an entirely new model called Advanced Reploid Bodies. It's even noted in an interview that their new designs reflects the advancement of technology since the X series. They should be also be immensely stronger then the X era due to there being centuries worth of accelerated development and offscreen events going on far beyond X8 as the Elf Wars was only 100 years away from the Zero series and Zero is hundreds of years after the X series as shown in the centuries scan.

The pages on the site itself lacks accelerated development reasoning so here are from the X era alone, which in its entirety doesnt even come close to the offscreen centuries that happen before the elf wars.

Zero consistently scales to X (obviously) who:

• Surpasses Zero in X1 when he was previously weaker.
• X defeats Sigma in every game and Sigma gets stronger every time hes defeated.
• Kaiser Sigma in X3 is also treated as far stronger then his previous forms and X beats that.
• X in Xtreme 1 was able to defeat Vile in his ride armor rather casually while in base. While in X1, X not only lost even after getting stronger + his upgrades but he even required Zero to self destruct to destroy the armor to help him win. X also even empowered himself of rage out of Zero's sacrifice as shown here to finish the job. Keep in mind Xtreme 1 is likely just months away at most a year or slightly over tops from X1, as X2 is 6 months after X1 and X3 shouldnt be too long after that and Xtreme takes place in between them and X is already power creeping Vile in his ride armor. Techo even said that X was defeating all the past data (of X1 and X2 Mavericks) easily despite Zero still considering them to be very strong.
• Is stated to get stronger the more he fights in Xtreme 2
• The entire thing with X and even reploids as a whole is their limitless evolutionary potential.
• X beat High Max later in X6 despite High Max being superior to him in every way.
• Sigma acknowledges X getting stronger throughout the series, and the stronger X gets, the more he wants to defeat him.
• X was able to single handedly defeat nearly every past maverick resurrected in X Challenge while teaming up with other Mavericks ranging from every game before X7. This even includes defeating a data version of his ultimate armor self in X6 and Awakened Zero while teamed up. And yes, X Challenge is canon and takes place after X6 and before X7 on the timeline.

Yamada: It's the "Original Zero" design, but... there are some opinions that say they were hoping for the X-saga design (to appear)... What can you tell me about that?

Yabe: The "Zero" from the Zero Saga that we developed at Inti Creates is ultimately Mr. Nakayama's "Zero." Maybe you could call it a different representation. We're drawing the same "Zero" from the X-saga with a Nakayama touch. In some anime, characters might change designs for a movie or something, right? Think of it as similar to the above.

Honda: Well. However, there were several different opinions within our company, and many designs were designed, and in the end, Mr. Nakayama's design was chosen... Among those, there were also designs of a Zero with square shoulders. But they didn't really match the style of the Zero Saga.
It wasn't clearly stated that it was Zero Saga X, and it was always the same, just a design change.

Aside from that, why would Albert use references to Axel Reploids from several centuries ago for better technologies than Biometal X and Z, if there were so many advances?
Q: What's the relationship between Model A and Axl?
A (Yajima): How should I say this...?
A completely new protagonist → dual pistols → transformation → "Ah, it's that guy!" (audience laughs)
Albert might have found some documents about Axl somewhere.

 

[AlloyAmi]

Yamada: It's the "Original Zero" design, but... there are some opinions that say they were hoping for the X-saga design (to appear)... What can you tell me about that?

Yabe: The "Zero" from the Zero Saga that we developed at Inti Creates is ultimately Mr. Nakayama's "Zero." Maybe you could call it a different representation. We're drawing the same "Zero" from the X-saga with a Nakayama touch. In some anime, characters might change designs for a movie or something, right? Think of it as similar to the above.

Honda: Well. However, there were several different opinions within our company, and many designs were designed, and in the end, Mr. Nakayama's design was chosen... Among those, there were also designs of a Zero with square shoulders. But they didn't really match the style of the Zero Saga.
It wasn't clearly stated that it was Zero Saga X, and it was always the same, just a design change.

I think youre taking this a bit too literal when they’re just saying that it’s the same character we know just with a different design, and nothing contradicts it also being that way in universe. If anything it makes more sense to be literal as Zero no longer has his buster which he did have in the X series and now uses an external buster that isnt part of him. A later interview in the Mega Man Zero official complete works also goes with the previous interview I linked on how its meant to represent upgrades and evolution with lorewise reploids do actually become more and more human. Inafune whos biggest involvements being that of the X series clearly felt this way and that its clearly different then what they were during the X era.
Inafune statement:
Sean: Repliroids in Rockman Zero look quite different from the
Repliroids that are in Rockman X. Is there any specific basis for
this change, such as new technology, or is this merely a change of
art style?

Keiji: Of course, yes, Mega Man Zero takes place 100 years after the
X series, so of course the technology has advanced quite a bit, and
we had to redesign all the robots to reflect that.

Mega Man Zero Official Complete Works Interview:
NAKAYAMA: I don't know if you could call them changes... We wanted to impart a sense of evolution. By virtue of the opinion that everything eventually leads to Legends, we felt that we needed to move away from the totally mechanical feel of the X series. That is probably what has been perceived as "changes" within the series. It's not that we were changing it enough to connect it directly to Legends, but we were certainly shifting towards a more human direction." (pages 170-171)

Not to mention the latest piece of material, the Maverick Hunter's field guide directly calls it an advanced model of reploids thats unknown to the X era.

Overall, later interviews and material go against it just being an artstyle change and none of this really goes against the point of centuries of accelerated development either.

Aside from that, why would Albert use references to Axel Reploids from several centuries ago for better technologies than Biometal X and Z, if there were so many advances?
Q: What's the relationship between Model A and Axl?
A (Yajima): How should I say this...?
A completely new protagonist → dual pistols → transformation → "Ah, it's that guy!" (audience laughs)
Albert might have found some documents about Axl somewhere.

Albert never used references or documents about axl nor is this ever suggested, this is complete headcanon and its directly stated the ability comes from Albert's own powers as Model A is literally just a backup system of Albert, hence why its full name is model Albert. the X era itself the characters arent even aware of axl's origin nor are able to gather information on it and the world has been greatly destroyed time and time again since them.

and no idea where this quote is from, the only time i remember them acknowledging axl is here, and they pretty much say its not axl they just wanted to pay homage to him without directly using him because they were unsure on his fate after X8 but still wanted his influence to be on the series in some form even if it isn't in a canon way but a gameplay and design way.

 

[Rokim21]

Sooooo, X profile when?

 

[Smashtwig]

Sooooo, X profile when?

I'm trying my best here bro



Also, I think this argument has become Dark Elf Phase 1 Omega ("Golden Omega") vs No Dark Elf Omega Zero, idk I'll quickly make a stance on that. Tbh this is a blog worthy debate ngl

Before that I want to address the regen thing- it’s clearly intended that the attacks were meant to just in general not work, as in they don’t deal significant enough damage/repelled- and that the reason the Guardians cannot damage him wasn’t because he was healing off damage but because the attacks just didn’t affect him at all. Since it seems like author intent is important to you, there you go. Though, I still have no idea how resetting your reanimation count as regen.

The rationale for this is that Omega shares the same energy level/signature as the Dark Elf, meaning he should be equal to it. Therefore, Golden Omega + Dark Elf > Omega Zero. Golden Omega's Sword shatters when his health depletes, the rationale for Zero "overpowering" Golden Omega is that Zero breaks the sword in one hit

Still, it doesn't make sense

I first want to make clear that this happens when Zero attacks Golden Omega's torso, not his sword- when the health bar is depleted and the sword shatters. So the idea that Zero was sword clashing with Omega and breaking his sword is already sort of strange. But, since that probably looks cooler in our minds- let's say that Zero does indeed do this- it's not like he can break it in one hit anyways. Hitting something multiple times can produce the same result- and nowhere is it shown that Zero can do a sword clash with Omega and break his sword right at the beginning of the fight. If Inti wanted to protray that with programming, they would have, because they've done so in the past with Z1- where Zero one shots a Golem with the Saber. Heck, I can play Zero 3 right now- play through the entire game and test if Zero can break Omega's Saber whenever he uses it using every move he has. I can (probably) guarentee that it doesn't happen and that the sword is invulnerable to all of my attacks- and shatters when Omega is defeated, implying that it would've taken multiple hits to eventually wear it down and break it.

Secondly, Remember that Fusion Form is Omega utilizing the full power of the Dark Elf in his Armored Form- so Golden Omega isn’t even just Armored Omega + the full Dark Elf. In fact, the Fusion Form is “far greater” than Golden Omega (though the sentence may refer to Omega Zero instead of Fusion Form- which may support my argument even more), and the only difference between these forms is that more (all) of the Dark Elf’s power is being accessed- so saying that Golden Form is even at the level of the Dark Elf without assuming that base Armored Omega is also Dark Elf level isn’t true.


Thirdly, is the fact that Omega's first form is designed to contain the overwhelming power of the Original Body within itself (オメガの第1形態の設定画。 体を覆うアー マーが、実は強大すぎる力を制御するため
の拘束具であることが書き込まれている - 拘束具 meaning “restraint” instead of “dampening effect” and 御するため meaning “to control” instead of “contain”). If the Dark Elf was really stronger than Omega Zero- it would also require a body as strong as Omega’s Armor to contain it, yet X is able to use himself as the Dark Elf's seal- no armors or anything, and successfully seal her- specifically and only specifically with his body? Meanwhile, Omega’s armor body is straight up required to contain the Original Body’s power- a body that X (using the same body at the time he sealed the Dark Elf shortly after) needed to team up with Zero to defeat (you can hear Omega’s roaring in the background- something only his Armored Form does).

• Note that: X's soul straight up couldn't bear the shock of sealing the Dark Elf- and the seal remained in place for 100 years when X's soul was already out of the body which is sealing the Dark Elf. So- X’s soul is NOT a factor here. Now, the scan says that it's because of X's "anti-virus countermeasures", so one could say this is "hax", but also power is still another factor here- there is a physical shock (衝撃 - physical impact in this context according to https://jisho.org/) involved that was so strong it forced X’s soul out- so there is still physical strength of the body involved into sealing the Dark Elf. One also needs to remember that these “anti-virus countermeasures” are meant to prevent X from going under the Dark Elf’s control- much like how he can’t be controlled by the Maverick Virus, they won’t aid him at all in the power department, and it’s clear that physical strength and constraints are needed to seal the Dark Elf (as shown when Elipzo destroys the physical body that contains the Dark Elf so he can release it)

This all means that when they say Omega has the same energy levels, they refer to first form Omega without the Dark Elf, stated in the game as the “giant Reploid with the Dark Elf’s signature”- even the OCW says that the “giant Omega revealed by the spacecraft” is the one that has the Dark Elf’s energy levels.

Quantifying Base Omega Zero is possible now that we know that Armored Omega is on the level of the Dark Elf, and that we know that the Dark Elf < Omega Zero. We can now say the following:

• Armored Omega (the grey one) is Dark Elf level, he seals Omega Zero, who is above Dark Elf level
• We know that Omega Zero’s power is “overwhelming”- whereas the Dark Elf’s power is something that is comparatively easier to handle and adapt to- after all the Omega Armor was designed to contain Omega Zero- which the Mother Elf was made from anyways. If you can contain the stronger of the two- the other should be containable as well.
• Omega then wields the combined strength of his Armored Self and Dark Elf’s power after releasing it as the Fusion Form demonstrates with no problem- yet, if he were to release Original Body’s power, control wouldn’t be possible, as the armor was made to control the Original Body (the OCW says that too) regardless of if the Dark Elf was present- it had to be restrained. Therefore, we can say that Omega Zero is at least on the level of Fusion Form Omega
  • To support this Weil says that Zero’s strength is extraordinary for a fake- right after observing him fight Fusion Form, implying that the real deal body- Omega Zero- would be able to do what he just did- beat Fusion Form Omega. Therefore, base Omega Zero > Fusion Form Omega (Armored Omega + Dark Elf)

 

[Rokim21]

On this note still, what about the manga stuff?
Separaring it from the X Era profiles is in the plans too?

 

[Smashtwig]

On this note still, what about the manga stuff?
Separaring it from the X Era profiles is in the plans too?

No idea and it's not really my jurastiction here I'm here to seperate profiles (well okay this debate isn't my jurisdiction either but idk)

 

[Migue79]

On this note still, what about the manga stuff?
Separaring it from the X Era profiles is in the plans too?

Yeah, Yoshihiro Iwamoto Manga stuff needs to be its own profile.

 

[Banjo77]

Creo que te lo estás tomando demasiado literal cuando solo dicen que es el mismo personaje que conocemos solo con un diseño diferente, y nada contradice que también sea así en el universo. En todo caso, tiene más sentido ser literal ya que Zero ya no tiene su buster que tenía en la serie X y ahora usa un buster externo que no es parte de él. Una entrevista posterior en las obras completas oficiales de Mega Man Zero también va con la entrevista anterior que vinculé sobre cómo se supone que representa las actualizaciones y la evolución con los reploides de la tradición que en realidad se vuelven cada vez más humanos. Inafune, cuya mayor participación en la serie X, claramente se sintió de esta manera y que es claramente diferente de lo que eran durante la era X.
Declaración de Inafune:
Sean: Los repliroides en Rockman Zero se ven bastante diferentes a los
Repliroides que están en Rockman X. ¿Hay alguna base específica para
Este cambio, como una nueva tecnología, ¿o es simplemente un cambio de
¿Estilo de arte?

Keiji: Por supuesto que sí, Mega Man Zero tiene lugar 100 años después del
Serie X, por supuesto la tecnología ha avanzado bastante, y
Tuvimos que rediseñar todos los robots para reflejar eso.

Entrevista oficial de Mega Man Zero Complete Works:
NAKAYAMA: No sé si se les podría llamar cambios... Queríamos transmitir una sensación de evolución . Considerando que todo conduce a Legends , sentimos que debíamos alejarnos de la sensación totalmente mecánica de la serie X. Eso es probablemente lo que se ha percibido como "cambios" dentro de la serie. No es que la estuviéramos cambiando lo suficiente como para conectarla directamente con Legends , sino que, sin duda, estábamos avanzando hacia una dirección más humana. (páginas 170-171 )

Sin mencionar la última pieza de material, la guía de campo de Maverick Hunter lo llama directamente un modelo avanzado de reploides que es desconocido para la era X.

En general, las entrevistas y el material posteriores contradicen la idea de que se trata simplemente de un cambio de estilo artístico, y nada de esto va en contra del objetivo de siglos de desarrollo acelerado.

Albert nunca usó referencias o documentos sobre Axl ni esto nunca se sugiere, esto es un headcanon completo y se afirma directamente que la habilidad proviene de los propios poderes de Albert , ya que el Modelo A es literalmente solo un sistema de respaldo de Albert, de ahí que su nombre completo sea modelo Albert . La era X en sí, los personajes ni siquiera son conscientes del origen de Axl ni pueden recopilar información sobre él y el mundo ha sido enormemente destruido una y otra vez desde entonces.

and no idea where this quote is from, the only time i remember them acknowledging axl is here, and they pretty much say its not axl they just wanted to pay homage to him without directly using him because they were unsure on his fate after X8 but still wanted his influence to be on the series in some form even if it isn't in a canon way but a gameplay and design way.

【魚拓】ZXA_TUNESイベントレポート - 5ch ロックマンゼクスシリーズ攻略 @Wiki - atwiki（アットウィキ）

https://w.atwiki.jp:443/rockmanzx2ch/pages/198.html - 2025年3月7日 03:21 - ウェブ魚拓

megalodon.jp

Here, the same person shouts that perhaps Alber used an Axel part.

I don't see how it contradicts itself. Model A isn't Axel directly. It has more Alber, but it was still used as a reference and its parts.


Makoto Yabe is what I shouted this

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

This would allow be so much simpler if we just had Omega be stronger in ZX since he displays better scaling against Aile there alongside it literally being stated that Omega on his own is comparable to Model W which is insanely cracked compared to the Z-Era since Base Serpent one-shot Giro and Aile super casually before Model W makes him comparable-ish to a version of Aile that's like eight times stronger than her initial ZX Double Megamerge.

 

[Smashtwig]

Sooooo, X profile when?

It's ready (kinda), all I need to do is make some things for the X era

This would allow be so much simpler if we just had Omega be stronger in ZX since he displays better scaling against Aile there alongside it literally being stated that Omega on his own is comparable to Model W which is insanely cracked compared to the Z-Era since Base Serpent one-shot Giro and Aile super casually before Model W makes him comparable-ish to a version of Aile that's like eight times stronger than her initial ZX Double Megamerge.

My argument is simply that there's no reason for Omega to grow that strong because he's been sitting in an echochamber doing nothing the whole timeframe.

Also I still sort of disagree with putting an exact number on the protagonist's growth being several times if we're using Pseudoroids as our reasoning since we don't know how strong they are besides being able to pose a threat to ZX with half a Biometal. Base Serpent using Model W to oneshot a somewhat battle worn X and Z lines up with the fact that Ragnarok killed Zero (and let's be real it's laser would be enough to do that too)- and Model O being stronger than that lines up with Omega being "Weil's ultimate weapon"

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

It's ready (kinda), all I need to do is make some things for the X era

My argument is simply that there's no reason for Omega to grow that strong because he's been sitting in an echochamber doing nothing the whole timeframe.

I don't see why he couldn't when Zero back in the X-Era could passively grow in power over time and Omega has that body with upgrades out the ass, especially since it's been like a century since Z4.

Also I still sort of disagree with putting an exact number on the protagonist's growth being several times if we're using Pseudoroids as our reasoning since we don't know how strong they are besides being able to pose a threat to ZX with half a Biometal. Base Serpent using Model W to oneshot a somewhat battle worn X and Z lines up with the fact that Ragnarok killed Zero (and let's be real it's laser would be enough to do that too)- and Model O being stronger than that lines up with Omega being "Weil's ultimate weapon"

Well they have to be at least as strong as Model X or Z individually since even in Double Megamerge they're still considered huge threats to Aile regardless and then they all get absorbed into Model W, explicitly stating that they'll add their power to Serpent's and that's what we have accepted currently due to my Imgur Album. So Omega had to have at least gotten somewhat more powerful in the literal century it's been since his L to Zero.

 

[Smashtwig]

I don't see why he couldn't when Zero back in the X-Era could passively grow in power over time and Omega has that body with upgrades out the ass, especially since it's been like a century since Z4.

Passively? I thought it was specifically through battle and we don't got proof that Omega/Model O were fighting that whole time, Model O has been unused to the point where it became a rock, Omega is just aurafarming in that Area N echochamber for who knows how long

Well they have to be at least as strong as Model X or Z individually since even in Double Megamerge they're still considered huge threats to Aile

I dont recall the "huge threats" to the protagonist, if the scan exists I'm sure they would just refer to the inexperience of the protagonist or a threat to society as a whole

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I dont recall the "huge threats" to the protagonist, if the scan exists I'm sure they would just refer to the inexperience of the protagonist or a threat to society as a whole

Not only do they all have special dialogue for actually managing to kill you but from what I remember it's also implied that if Aile runs into the Pseudoroid at the end of the circus area while still losing her shit over her trauma then she'll probably lose which wouldn't be a possibility if they didn't have the power to defeat her anyways. Also Serpent went out of his way to resurrect them to at least attempt to either slow you down or even potentially kill you so absorbing their power into Model W after they lose would make it a lot stronger.

 

[Smashtwig]

Well I'm not exactly saying that they can't lose or anything I'm just saying they should be significantly stronger than a Pseudoroid with only "half" a Biometal on them, with each Guardian being maybe a 5th of X (though I'm not really sure if 5th of a person's data really means 5th of their power- tbh I don't like the idea either), either way, they'd be at least 4x stronger than them if we consider all biometals equal- so the Model W Boost could def be interpreted differently (in this case a 2x increase instead of the 8x)

 

[TheHedgememe]

I've also heard from the Mega Man guys that they're planning to make different keys for X-Era

I dunno if it's for DiVE keys or if it's to clean up the mess that is literally everyone somehow being 4-B, but if it's the latter: Thank GOD. Those profiles have bothered me for the longest time. Nobody should be scaling to a feat from X8 if they're from long before that. The Chill Penguin agenda must be stopped.

The pages on the site itself lacks accelerated development reasoning so here are from the X era alone, which in its entirety doesnt even come close to the offscreen centuries that happen before the elf wars.

Zero consistently scales to X (obviously) who:

• Surpasses Zero in X1 when he was previously weaker.
• X defeats Sigma in every game and Sigma gets stronger every time hes defeated.
• Kaiser Sigma in X3 is also treated as far stronger then his previous forms and X beats that.
• X in Xtreme 1 was able to defeat Vile in his ride armor rather casually while in base. While in X1, X not only lost even after getting stronger + his upgrades but he even required Zero to self destruct to destroy the armor to help him win. X also even empowered himself of rage out of Zero's sacrifice as shown here to finish the job. Keep in mind Xtreme 1 is likely just months away at most a year or slightly over tops from X1, as X2 is 6 months after X1 and X3 shouldnt be too long after that and Xtreme takes place in between them and X is already power creeping Vile in his ride armor. Techo even said that X was defeating all the past data (of X1 and X2 Mavericks) easily despite Zero still considering them to be very strong.
• Is stated to get stronger the more he fights in Xtreme 2
• The entire thing with X and even reploids as a whole is their limitless evolutionary potential.
• X beat High Max later in X6 despite High Max being superior to him in every way.
• Sigma acknowledges X getting stronger throughout the series, and the stronger X gets, the more he wants to defeat him.
• X was able to single handedly defeat nearly every past maverick resurrected in X Challenge while teaming up with other Mavericks ranging from every game before X7. This even includes defeating a data version of his ultimate armor self in X6 and Awakened Zero while teamed up. And yes, X Challenge is canon and takes place after X6 and before X7 on the timeline.

Agreed on accelerated development. This is pretty much also my exact reasoning, and then some. They should've had it from the beginning to be honest.

Would also like to mention Zero isn't treated as weaker, but actually stronger then Omega as he is the true soul of Zero, and Omega in X-DiVE represents him while amplified with the Dark Elf.

This scene arguably reads moreso like Zero being able to utilize his body's power far better than Omega's able to.

Also, tangentially related, I do think it's somewhat telling that Zero can beat Omega despite the latter being famously amped by the Dark Elf—regardless if it's skill or AP. It's kind of hilarious to think someone famous for being the "Broken OP Funny Messiah Guy" like Omega is, ends up being somewhat of a fraud when The Real Deal walks in. Though, I suppose it is a bit of a group effort when the Guardians eventually get involved in the fight. Even so, Zero pretty handily solos most of his forms. That last bit isn't me arguing or anything, just kind of reminiscing about Zero 3's narrative.

 

[AlloyAmi]

【魚拓】ZXA_TUNESイベントレポート - 5ch ロックマンゼクスシリーズ攻略 @Wiki - atwiki（アットウィキ）

https://w.atwiki.jp:443/rockmanzx2ch/pages/198.html - 2025年3月7日 03:21 - ウェブ魚拓

megalodon.jp

Here, the same person shouts that perhaps Alber used an Axel part.

I don't see how it contradicts itself. Model A isn't Axel directly. It has more Alber, but it was still used as a reference and its parts.


Makoto Yabe is what I shouted this

which the game contradicts because thats just alberts innate ability as stated in game, and is an overall homage, they answered this question much later, and dont wanna touch anything on axl completely because his fates unknown. and either way that would be a hax thing refering to the a trans.

 

[AlloyAmi]

this has also diverged into a lot of different points over a topic that isnt really that important to begin with nor do i care to really go over after all this time, if there is to be a summary later then can be but i overall stand on these points:

zeros copy body should not be weaker then omega and should be identical at absolute worse with the statement, seto the translator supported this line of logic.

zeros physical body gets stronger and grows but what allows it to do that is the true soul of zero,

omegas armor is likely a stone wall with higher dura, as official statements are said to make it stronger as well, despite it being a compressor at the same time. omega clearly was able to deal with recovering zeros damage at the start of the game, but zero obliterated said form while amped by the end.

peak zeros power is treated as unknown and infinite, with the only one being able to truly match it is x, and i think this should put them above omega in the end, especially considering that statement is from a previous verse admin and they refer to his strength. i also think potential is used a lot in context of strength as well throughout the series so i dont think any of the stuff regarding that really debunks strength correlation either.

I don't really know zx enough to argue it but migue talked about stuff like one shotted model w or something along that, and omega getting strong without doing anything isnt really contradictory as characters like sigma alone just passively get stronger and adapt overtime offscreen along with the navigators being able to just pop in the combat theoretically in x8 and be on par. phantom showing new techniques is a showing a growth, in no situation does a character just get new shit and not be stronger. i know you like arguing everything is a skill but at a point it gets to where we are just ignoring outright growth. I simply think zx omega should be its own thing, and not affect z scaling.

overall like yeah idrc anymore as this has gotten tiring and other people can discuss this as needed

 

[Smashtwig]

performance != specificially physical strength, and I feel like I've already said many times that I agree zero grows.

And I think we've been through everything you said at least once so I don't really know what to say bruh. Also, unknown and infinite are like, two different things that are contridictory- you're either infinite or you ain't. But since you probably rely on the fact that "only X can match it", then that'd put X and Zero at the top no matter what happens in the story when there are obvious things like Model W and Ragnarok exist. X is the guy with "infinite potential" too, and he wasn't able to deal with Elpizo and the Elves- if the only person who was able to "match X" is Zero, then why did Elpizo win?

Omega's armor is... armor, yes, but I don't see how this helps. The armor can still be weaker than the core Original Body. Like, the flesh part of fruits are meant to protect the seeds inside, but no one's gonna argue that the seed of an avocado is more fragile than the editable part. I still cannot fathom the idea that glowing a bit and picking arms back up counts as healing or regen. The scenes you refer to are just showings of physical growth Zero makes, which doesn't automatically mean he's stronger than the Original Body

I don't get the Sigma point for the passive growth, the guy comes back in a cooler physical body every dang time he comes back, and even if we say he passively does, it's SIGMA- the guy that just can't bloody die, he's at the very least- ALIVE. Omega can't grow, because he's too busy being DEAD. Omega is just gone and just shows up later without any basis to say he got stronger beyond "oh he came back- so he must behave like X person does, even though that's entirely different guy". If everyone really could passively grow as a data being I have no doubt that Cyber Elf X would be able to just cook everyone because he's Potential Man TM who can only be matched by Zero, yet Elpizo cooks him with Crea and Prea

And- "in no situation does a character gets new stuff and not be stronger" is... an assumption, if some guy who can't lift a 30 pound dumbell learned kung fu moves in a day, they didn't get stronger, they just learned some kung fu moves and applied them. The X8 stuff... I don't know what to tell you beyond throwing your argument of "it's a fun thing they wanted to add in" back at you, but to entertain it- why would they equip themselves with inferior weaponry from earlier entries at that point? Even in other media, theres points in the story that emphaze that all the training that was done before hand only enhanced their application of their powers (aka, getting new stuff), and not increase the output of said power. I'm not even ignoring growth, I continue to always agree that at least Zero does grow. And no, the claim that everything is a skill feat to me is just not right otherwise you'd see me push GV to crazy heights because his power "controls electrons" therefore he must be that precise. But I don't.

 

[AlloyAmi]

performance != specificially physical strength

several statements in the series say otherwise, their potential is directly linked to power/danger/growth

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and of course a lot of these tie in with the accelerated development that i brought up before, contextually the potential refers to them getting stronger.

Also, unknown and infinite are like, two different things that are contridictory-

unknown refers to the fact that you cant measure his power, and it is infinite in growing. we already have statements and proof that their power cant be measured.

X is the guy with "infinite potential" too, and he wasn't able to deal with Elpizo and the Elves- if the only person who was able to "match X" is Zero, then why did Elpizo win?

ah yes the clearly weakened fraction of X left after his soul got split up and he struggled to sustain his existence in reality or even use his power that much. lets not ignore context now. X and Zero normally are quite on par, with it being treated as X being the one coming up on top in the end, with even zero admitting this.

Omega's armor is... armor, yes, but I don't see how this helps

The armor is stated to make him stronger then normal, with it clearly refering to durability. base zero overpowers the armor, even while amped so his ap is above his far stronger durability.

I still cannot fathom the idea that glowing a bit and picking arms back up counts as healing or regen.

We literally see him just undo the damage Zero and Harpuia did to him, and its not until the end of the game where zero hits him hard enough to outright overpower him from doing that again. idk what else to tell you.

I don't get the Sigma point for the passive growth, the guy comes back in a cooler physical body every dang time he comes back, and even if we say he passively does, it's SIGMA

the virus is continously adapting and it gets to the point where they cant even standardly interact with it without an upgrade part in mega man x5. he gets new bodies, but the being itself of the sigma virus is constantly growing stronger and adapting.

the guy that just can't bloody die, he's at the very least- ALIVE.

None of the characters are truly "dead". they continue to exist as lingering data just like omega, look at x challenge's entire plot. several of the mavericks of the games "died" but they can just come back at any time cuz they are still somewhere as data. Hidden phantom is "dead" but not really, the basis behind him being stronger is zero clearly going toe to toe with all 3 phases back to back with an amped omega and zero in the end having the upper edge, with omega falling to his knees first and even after all of ailes growth and upscaling omega is still treated as strong. Hidden Phantom offscreen, was able to become strong enough to still throw hands with a zero 3 zero, with a zero 1 zero being described to stop all the guardians fighting him at once. and again Cyber Elf X is a nerfed fraction of X that doesn't compare to Elf Wars X why are we arguing this. Prime X would clearly be superior to the guardians yet compare this fraction vs Hidden Phantom in Zero 3, its clearly not the same.

And- "in no situation does a character gets new stuff and not be stronger" is... an assumption, if some guy who can't lift a 30 pound dumbell learned kung fu moves in a day, they didn't get stronger, they just learned some kung fu moves and applied them.

The series directly correlates new stuff like this as upgrades and outright getting stronger, there is no reason or instance these characters would be stagnant unless its specifically like data from the past being used. and again, hidden phantom fought on par, despite in zero 1 being treated as immensely inferior even as a collective group by copy x, who in the end even zero saw as weak.

why would they equip themselves with inferior weaponry from earlier entries at that point?

you can make this case for like layer who just uses a saber, but alia has no reason or showings to have changed their body and such, they kinda just hop in the action, along with the durability also scaling. It should also be noted this is treated as canon and cant just be dismissed as fun little bonus thing you can do.

This will be my final reply, and experts such as Migue can provide input whenever they feel like it, and also do things such as address ZX.

 

[Banjo77]

several statements in the series say otherwise, their potential is directly linked to power/danger/growth

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and of course a lot of these tie in with the accelerated development that i brought up before, contextually the potential refers to them getting stronger.


unknown refers to the fact that you cant measure his power, and it is infinite in growing. we already have statements and proof that their power cant be measured.

ah yes the clearly weakened fraction of X left after his soul got split up and he struggled to sustain his existence in reality or even use his power that much. lets not ignore context now. X and Zero normally are quite on par, with it being treated as X being the one coming up on top in the end, with even zero admitting this.

The armor is stated to make him stronger then normal, with it clearly refering to durability. base zero overpowers the armor, even while amped so his ap is above his far stronger durability.

We literally see him just undo the damage Zero and Harpuia did to him, and its not until the end of the game where zero hits him hard enough to outright overpower him from doing that again. idk what else to tell you.

the virus is continously adapting and it gets to the point where they cant even standardly interact with it without an upgrade part in mega man x5. he gets new bodies, but the being itself of the sigma virus is constantly growing stronger and adapting.

None of the characters are truly "dead". they continue to exist as lingering data just like omega, look at x challenge's entire plot. several of the mavericks of the games "died" but they can just come back at any time cuz they are still somewhere as data. Hidden phantom is "dead" but not really, the basis behind him being stronger is zero clearly going toe to toe with all 3 phases back to back with an amped omega and zero in the end having the upper edge, with omega falling to his knees first and even after all of ailes growth and upscaling omega is still treated as strong. Hidden Phantom offscreen, was able to become strong enough to still throw hands with a zero 3 zero, with a zero 1 zero being described to stop all the guardians fighting him at once. and again Cyber Elf X is a nerfed fraction of X that doesn't compare to Elf Wars X why are we arguing this. Prime X would clearly be superior to the guardians yet compare this fraction vs Hidden Phantom in Zero 3, its clearly not the same.

The series directly correlates new stuff like this as upgrades and outright getting stronger, there is no reason or instance these characters would be stagnant unless its specifically like data from the past being used. and again, hidden phantom fought on par, despite in zero 1 being treated as immensely inferior even as a collective group by copy x, who in the end even zero saw as weak.

you can make this case for like layer who just uses a saber, but alia has no reason or showings to have changed their body and such, they kinda just hop in the action, along with the durability also scaling. It should also be noted this is treated as canon and cant just be dismissed as fun little bonus thing you can do.

This will be my final reply, and experts such as Migue can provide input whenever they feel like it, and also do things such as address ZX.

How X weakened where this implication is the creation of guardians or the moment Elpizo killed him X was weak nor does Megaman Zero imply that Elpizo killed X post X8 plus several extra centuries

 

[AlloyAmi]

what are you even trying to say I am very confused with your wording

 

[Banjo77]

what are you even trying to say I am very confused with your wording

Where in Megaman Zero is it implied that X was weakened before Elpizo destroyed his body?

 

[AlloyAmi]

Where in Megaman Zero is it implied that X was weakened before Elpizo destroyed his body?

X's original body is irrelevant by this point and is essentially an empty husk holding a seal, this is talking about Cyber Elf X.

Cyber Elf X is a weakened fraction of X caused by the shock of sealing the dark elf splitting his soul into what will eventually become the guardians

In Zero 2, he attempts to stop elpizo with the baby elves alone, but is ultimately overpowered. Hes also uses the bit of his remaining power to still sustain the seal as well. In the elf wars he fought omega with the dark elf who is MUCH stronger and defeated him. His cyber elf form also appears glitchy, as it struggles to sustain itself into reality, and he runs out of energy to sustain his existence at the end of zero 3. Overall, hes very clearly weaker as he mostly just provides support to the characters and is incapable of using too much power, and whatever power he does use is treated as very limited on several occasions.

This is a very clear constrast from Hidden Phantom's cyber elf , who we see is not only capable of doing everything his normal body could, but even gained some new techniques and is stronger as he can contend with Zero in 3 directly and is just as capable at performing combat unlike X.