Meliodas and Zeldris vs Asta and Yuno

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

You said he can spawn attacks directly on them. I'm not contemplating whether manazone grants him omnidirectional attacks, I'm asking for where he spawned it directly on his opponent

This is told to us when Yuno spawned one of his attacks inside the attack of other mage in the royal knight exams

But it has never been use to spawn a attack inside an enemy, probably because if the enemy is moving, is more difficult to pin point the location when you can more easily produce AoE attacks and hit him

ALSO PLEASE STOP DOING VS USING NNT

Also waiting this, I will only comment once because I saw this comment

 

[Epsilon_R]

Yeah what's up with the nnt abuse recently, aren't y'all in a huge revision?

 

[VsReferee]

Yuno attacks from within ON.

Lmao. Did either one of them adapt to opponents, to the point of adapting to a blitz or an AP stomp, as well as Asta and Yuno did ? Can they use their weapon as well and as many different, yet efficient ways as Asta? Are they faster learners than Yuno ? Did they ever stole someone's technique just by observing it once?

Just curious, bc I keep seeing Mel being more skilled than Asta, yet haven't seen anything backing up that claim. And assuming they are more skilled, I don't see what stops Asta from stealing some of their techniques and beat them up with them

Can you (or someone else) post scans of Asta's strength and sword/fighting skills? I really have a vague view of Asta in that department because anti-magic is what helps him beating his enemies. If people say asta is as skilled or even better than meldris, I don't know what they mean. Also does cutting magic with anti magic require the same strength as without it? Is something like that explained in the manga?

As of now, I am thinking that meldris are more skilled (with sword and fist) and have more strength than Asta.
Here some base strength/skill feats from season 1 Meliodas
Catches a spear thrown by Gilthunder that was stated to destroy a town, and accurately throws it back over 7 miles.
Casually slashes away Dianes magic(counter vanish, can also do it without weapons)
Physically dominates Holy Knight Ruin. Ruin's punch on Meliodas created a crater. Meliodas tanks more of these.
Fight between Meliodas and Diane.
Slashes hard enough to create air blasts from wind pressure. (not magic)
Can Asta do this with 1 swing?
Can Asta do this with air pressure from his sword?
Some fighting skills from Meliodas

I have posted enough strength/skill feats for now,

Yuno can't attack from within ON. God nulls magic.
I think Zeldris would really win against Yuno with ON + God alone in a 1v1.
Merlin's teleportation didn't even work in time while she was spamming them continuously to stay on distant.
ON pulls magic users at high speed (note that Merlin's spamming teleport was too late), Yuno would be coming closer and closer while his attacks gets nulled.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Yuno's resistance is layered as well. He won't get nulled.

Mind Manip resistance counters that.

On top of that the “fear hax” works on those vastly inferior. Arthur and the heros were vastly inferior to Cusack that’s why it worked. Although that’s obviously social influencing via inflicting fear with status as highest ranking demon and allowing Arthur to sense his true strength via aura, which would obviously inflict fear.

Even though Arthur was “harming” them, it was due to them underestimating Arthur’s strength and skills however it was revealed that even such attacks were meaningless. Furthermore, it took the combined power of the heros inferior magic and Arthur’s inferior magic power to “harm” an overconfident base cusack, on their own individually they do not scale to Cusack whatsoever and the fear hax came after Arthur temporarily lost his powers from Excalibur so nobody can say Arthur was still amped even though Cusack and his buddy doesn’t see the amp as shit anyway.

So the “fear hax” is not working on Yuno and it’s definitely not working on Asta who can’t even sense magic to begin with.

You act like Asta an Yuno don't have better amps. 2× AP amp + 2× speed amp + AD + RPL + Mana Zone on top of that

On top of ALL OF THIS. Yuno and Asta can pseudo amp themselves like they did against Zagred. There was a time Yuno increased Asta’s speed via wind magic (and aura iirc) by taking advantage of the homing effect that Asta has in black mode.

Yuno attacks from within ON.

cuz Mana Zone

Neither Zeldris or Mel use soul Manip in character, Zel is more like to do so though.

they will never start with it or even use it early in the fight. If at all.

Lmao. Did either one of them adapt to opponents, to the point of adapting to a blitz or an AP stomp, as well as Asta and Yuno did ? Can they use their weapon as well and as many different, yet efficient ways as Asta? Are they faster learners than Yuno ? Did they ever stole someone's technique just by observing it once?

Just curious, bc I keep seeing Mel being more skilled than Asta, yet haven't seen anything backing up that claim. And assuming they are more skilled, I don't see what stops Asta from stealing some of their techniques and beat them up with them

To answer those obvious questions, no, Asta and Yuno will easily adapt.

 

[Makai641001]

Yuno's resistance is layered as well. He won't get nulled.

Demons get layers with getting stronger counting the number of demons would lead to the number of layers according to their physiology

Mind Manip resistance counters that.

Fea

You act like Asta an Yuno don't have better amps. 2× AP amp + 2× speed amp + AD + RPL + Mana Zone on top of that

you act like Mel doesn’t have 2 to 3x amp + 2x amp + 10x AP amp + demons like Chandler And Cuzack adapted to a previous blitz instantly Zel to a Danmaku from someone far faster than him he also was able to completely Blitz Mael while being completely overwhelmed at first

Yuno attacks from within ON.

Magic can’t affect Zel

Neither Zeldris or Mel use soul Manip in character, Zel is more like to do so though.

Zel do he used it to Regen his magic after the seal broke and later too

Lmao. Did either one of them adapt to opponents, to the point of adapting to a blitz or an AP stomp, as well as Asta and Yuno did ? Can they use their weapon as well and as many different, yet efficient ways as Asta? Are they faster learners than Yuno ? Did they ever stole someone's technique just by observing it once?

I listed multiple feats of adaptation to faster opps and Chandler casually adapted to Something capable of blitzing him + someone else relative to him at the same Time Mael one was at the beginning a heavy AP disadvantage their enchantments does prevent any AP stomp whatever In general

they use their own body as a weapon they use darkness as weapons are specialists in martial art and the use of their abilities Zel used his immunity to magic + Full react they use their magic in polyvalent ways and are highly skilled in every use of it

Meli stole king technique after seeing it once and upgraded it to the point it was able to stomp the supreme being of the verse He also instantly used the darkness From his body to make it more durable

Just curious, bc I keep seeing Mel being more skilled than Asta, yet haven't seen anything backing up that claim. And assuming they are more skilled, I don't see what stops Asta from stealing some of their techniques and beat them up with them

Asta can’t even do magic so most of their techniques will not be stolen almost everything they use is Physiology related

Skill wise Meli is able to sense things coming from km

Send a spear back to it’s sender without any indication of distance trajectory etc…

Could adapt to an invisible opponent and predict his entire pattern of movements to the point where He could trap him and anticipate every single action He made

Could counter special assassin weapon without looking

Stated to be one of the best Swordsman itw one shot an ennemi taking on Ban + King + Gowther once He got decided to kill him

Could 1v3 opps on par with his lvl

Can react to attacks without seeing them (The dude attacking him is on par with him)

Could analyse the situation in a 1v3 against Liones best mage and 2 diamond ranks and still deliver Margaret from the invisible curse placed on her

Meli adapts to demon Hendy and manage to fight against him despite the latter being FAR stronger and faster

Could copy King ability instantly and upgrade it

Is one of the best Soul manipulat

He is a good king and managed an entire country through wars against Chaos he is really intelligent
Is stated to be capable of taking on Excalibur Arthur that scale to them
Once serious it’s stated that comp great swordsmasters couldn’t do shit against high ranking demons

Zel is considered as his equal in terms of swordskills he was capable of taking on the entire Merlin group and to bypass her tp skills he played defensively cause he knew they were ******
Which shows his high untelligence and ability to adapt to situations of numerical inferiority

Both have lots of ad feats and RPL feats can adapt to pretty much every scenario and make the use of their complete arsenal of techniques in order to pull a W

I probably forgot many feats (Didn’t even include ranks)

 

[VsReferee]

Demons get layers with getting stronger counting the number of demons would lead to the number of layers according to their physiology


Fea


you act like Mel doesn’t have 2 to 3x amp + 2x amp + 10x AP amp + demons like Chandler And Cuzack adapted to a previous blitz instantly Zel to a Danmaku from someone far faster than him he also was able to completely Blitz Mael while being completely overwhelmed at first


Magic can’t affect Zel


Zel do he used it to Regen his magic after the seal broke and later too



I listed multiple feats of adaptation to faster opps and Chandler casually adapted to Something capable of blitzing him + someone else relative to him at the same Time Mael one was at the beginning a heavy AP disadvantage their enchantments does prevent any AP stomp whatever In general

they use their own body as a weapon they use darkness as weapons are specialists in martial art and the use of their abilities Zel used his immunity to magic + Full react they use their magic in polyvalent ways and are highly skilled in every use of it

Meli stole king technique after seeing it once and upgraded it to the point it was able to stomp the supreme being of the verse He also instantly used the darkness From his body to make it more durable


Asta can’t even do magic so most of their techniques will not be stolen almost everything they use is Physiology related

Skill wise Meli is able to sense things coming from km

Send a spear back to it’s sender without any indication of distance trajectory etc…

Could adapt to an invisible opponent and predict his entire pattern of movements to the point where He could trap him and anticipate every single action He made

Could counter special assassin weapon without looking

Stated to be one of the best Swordsman itw one shot an ennemi taking on Ban + King + Gowther once He got decided to kill him

Could 1v3 opps on par with his lvl

Can react to attacks without seeing them (The dude attacking him is on par with him)

Could analyse the situation in a 1v3 against Liones best mage and 2 diamond ranks and still deliver Margaret from the invisible curse placed on her

Meli adapts to demon Hendy and manage to fight against him despite the latter being FAR stronger and faster

Could copy King ability instantly and upgrade it

Is one of the best Soul manipulat

He is a good king and managed an entire country through wars against Chaos he is really intelligent
Is stated to be capable of taking on Excalibur Arthur that scale to them
Once serious it’s stated that comp great swordsmasters couldn’t do shit against high ranking demons

Zel is considered as his equal in terms of swordskills he was capable of taking on the entire Merlin group and to bypass her tp skills he played defensively cause he knew they were ******
Which shows his high untelligence and ability to adapt to situations of numerical inferiority

Both have lots of ad feats and RPL feats can adapt to pretty much every scenario and make the use of their complete arsenal of techniques in order to pull a W

I probably forgot many feats (Didn’t even include ranks)

scans would be better

 

[Makai641001]

On top of that the “fear hax” works on those vastly inferior. Arthur and the heros were vastly inferior to Cusack that’s why it worked. Although that’s obviously social influencing via inflicting fear with status as highest ranking demon and allowing Arthur to sense his true strength via aura, which would obviously inflict fear.

Even though Arthur was “harming” them, it was due to them underestimating Arthur’s strength and skills however it was revealed that even such attacks were meaningless. Furthermore, it took the combined power of the heros inferior magic and Arthur’s inferior magic power to “harm” an overconfident base cusack, on their own individually they do not scale to Cusack whatsoever and the fear hax came after Arthur temporarily lost his powers from Excalibur so nobody can say Arthur was still amped even though Cusack and his buddy doesn’t see the amp as shit anyway.

So the “fear hax” is not working on Yuno and it’s definitely not working on Asta who can’t even sense magic to begin with.




On top of ALL OF THIS. Yuno and Asta can pseudo amp themselves like they did against Zagred. There was a time Yuno increased Asta’s speed via wind magic (and aura iirc) by taking advantage of the homing effect that Asta has in black mode.




cuz Mana Zone




they will never start with it or even use it early in the fight. If at all.




To answer those obvious questions, no, Asta and Yuno will easily adapt.

You downplayed a lot of NNT feats didn’t even take immunity to magic into account didn’t even take negative energy into account
Soul hax are used in character
Didn’t take AP amps into account
Didn’t take speed amps into account

On top of that Zel and Mel can amp themselves using their own darkness power to simulate night and amp Their magic further

Mana zone gets nulled
Negative energy + immunity to magic with many layers to it due to their physiology ON stomps Full react too

 

[Makai641001]

scans would be better

Profiles show these feats

 

[azontr]

You guys talk about layers but refuse to mention how many layers so that the potency can be properly compared lol.

 

[Majinere566]

I'm so tired of seeing nnt vs bc

 

[Makai641001]

You guys talk about layers but refuse to mention how many layers so that the potency can be properly compared lol.

Base Meli negative energy < Dm Meli negative energy < Wrath Meli negative energy < Galand negative energy < Unsealed Mel negative energy < Unsealed DM Meli NE < DM2 Meli NE < Estarossa NE< Revives base Mel NE<Revived DM Mel < Revived DM2 Mel < AM Mel NE < Post purgatory base Mel NE < Post Purgatory DM Meli NE < Post Purgatory DM2 Meli NE < Post Purgatory AM Mel NE < TMF Meli NE the used form Here is PP DM2 Mel iirc

Zel has immunity anyway

 

[Makai641001]

I'm so tired of seeing nnt vs bc

I’m so tired of NNT in VS threads during upgrades…

 

[azontr]

Base Meli negative energy < Dm Meli negative energy < Wrath Meli negative energy < Galand negative energy < Unsealed Mel negative energy < Unsealed DM Meli NE < DM2 Meli NE < Estarossa NE< Revives base Mel NE<Revived DM Mel < Revived DM2 Mel < AM Mel NE < Post purgatory base Mel NE < Post Purgatory DM Meli NE < Post Purgatory DM2 Meli NE < Post Purgatory AM Mel NE < TMF Meli NE the used form Here is PP DM2 Mel iirc

Zel has immunity anyway

Do you have any scans/citations for any of this scaling?

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Base Meli negative energy < Dm Meli negative energy < Wrath Meli negative energy < Galand negative energy < Unsealed Mel negative energy < Unsealed DM Meli NE < DM2 Meli NE < Estarossa NE< Revives base Mel NE<Revived DM Mel < Revived DM2 Mel < AM Mel NE < Post purgatory base Mel NE < Post Purgatory DM Meli NE < Post Purgatory DM2 Meli NE < Post Purgatory AM Mel NE < TMF Meli NE the used form Here is PP DM2 Mel iirc

This is powerscaling
Not layers

 

[Makai641001]

Do you have any scans/citations for any of this scaling?

Negative energy is a component of their physiology just as Purgatory fire and other abilities reinforce with their overall lvl Negative energy too it become more potent

 

[Majinere566]

PP

Ha

 

[azontr]

Negative energy is a component of their physiology just as Purgatory fire and other abilities reinforce with their overall lvl Negative energy too it become more potent

Do you have any scans to prove that? Or is it on a profile I can look at?

 

[Makai641001]

This is powerscaling
Not layers

Negative energy is Energy the stronger they get the stronger the effects of their negative energy Would be Base Meli Magic would get negated by Dm 1 Meli’s anti magic

 

[Makai641001]

Ha

Sorry for being that gay

 

[Makai641001]

Do you have any scans to prove that? Or is it on a profile I can look at?

Look at how it works on the profiles ig

 

[Makai641001]

I gtg watch the game and then Go to sleep i’ll unwatch this i strongly advise y’all to stop participating in these Threads it would maybe stop YouTubeforking or at least refrain him From making to much of these it’s like the 5th in 2 weeks and we asked politely more than 5 times to stop doing these y’all can participate in NNT threads if you want to talk about NNT see y’all

Also what is the chapter that follows the end of Anime BC I want to read it

Edit: To stop participating in these threads when NNT is involved* of course

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Negative energy is Energy the stronger they get the stronger the effects of their negative energy

This works with basically any power system in fiction. Literally any system. This is not how you qualify how many layers someone has, otherwise any character would have more than 1000

Hax with layers act as levels that are not easy to obtain

• Character P resist mind control of character X. Such mind control is based on an energy system
• However, character Y can control Character P mind due to the fact that his mental powers have a greater range and complexity
  • character Y mind control has 2 layers
• Character Z has a stronger mind control power than character X, but it is not shown to affect anyone with resistance
  • Character Z possesses mind control more powerful than one layer on an unqualified scale

In short, layers is how much resistance you can affect, not how superior you are to the weaker Hax; Your layer scaling is just powerscaling

 

[Makai641001]

This works with basically any power system in fiction. Literally any system. This is not how you qualify how many layers someone has, otherwise any character would have more than 1000

Hax layers act as levels that are not easy to obtain

• Character P resist mind control of character X. Such mind control is based on an energy system
• However, character Y can control Character P mind due to the fact that his mental powers have a greater range and complexity
  • character Y mind control has 2 layers
• Character Z has a stronger mind control power than character X
  • Character Z possesses mind control more powerful than one layer on an unqualified scale

In short, layers is how much resistance you can affect, not how superior you are to the weaker Hax; Your layer scaling is just powerscaling

DM Meli Would nullify base Meli Resistance it’s what is called a layer any magic that bypassed their ability to nullify magic gets a layer my point still stands i gtg

 

[Rabbit2002]

Why Galland and others have negative energy ?

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

DM Meli Would nullify base Meli Resistance

So 2 layers

 

[Arnoldstone18]

This works with basically any power system in fiction. Literally any system. This is not how you qualify how many layers someone has, otherwise any character would have more than 1000

Hax with layers act as levels that are not easy to obtain

• Character P resist mind control of character X. Such mind control is based on an energy system
• However, character Y can control Character P mind due to the fact that his mental powers have a greater range and complexity
  • character Y mind control has 2 layers
• Character Z has a stronger mind control power than character X, but it is not shown to affect anyone with resistance
  • Character Z possesses mind control more powerful than one layer on an unqualified scale

In short, layers is how much resistance you can affect, not how superior you are to the weaker Hax; Your layer scaling is just powerscaling

Thanks for the examples

Black Clover's power system is built different. I love how in black clover, we know that amping magic amps not only power but capabilities as stated verbatim. For example: Character A's magic is a hax, Character A's magic becomes a greater hax with greater magic (Morris, Dante, etc), In BC Character A negs Character B's hax, then Character B negs Character A's resistance after amping their magic (Yuno vs Zenon, Megicula vs Charlotte's anti-curse, etc)

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Black Clover's power system is built different. I love how in black clover, we know that amping magic amps not only power but capabilities as stated verbatim.

This happens with any verse actually
Like Nnt

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Anyway, after I finish NNT all this would be easier to debate.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

This happens with any verse actually

You sure?

I don't see it, especially with what you just said about how layering works. Unless youre saying Layering is common in fiction which is a duhhhh.

Anyway,

Megicula was getting negged by Charlotte's anti-curse. Then Megicula grew more powerful and resisted Charlotte's Anti curse, Then Charlotte got amped and negged her curses again. This is one layer for Megi and one for Charlotte, right?

80% Dante's regen got negated by Jack and 100% Dante got negated by Jack's negation.

Yuno's erosion got casually resisted by dark disciple, Yuno of course got more magic and negged the resistance, Zenon resisted Yuno's corrosion, Yuno negged it on their rematch, Zenon resisted again at 100%, Yuno negged it with more magic in his attack, Zenon became a devil and negged Yuno again, Yuno gains plasma energy to vape the bones instead.

Etc

Pls, tell me what layers these examples are or just your opinion.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I don't see it, especially with what you just said about how layering works. Unless youre saying Layering is common in fiction which is a duhhhh.

Hax increasing with the character's power is ******* normal
Increasing the layer with the character's power that is something that is not real

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Hax increasing with the character's power is ******* normal
Increasing the layer with the character's power that is something that is not real

Yeah, i know but are you sure you read everything i said? lemme crop it out.

In BC Character A negs Character B's hax, then Character B negs Character A's resistance after amping their magic

edit: lowkey sensing tautology or im just a dummy.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Yeah, I read

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Yeah, I read

So which one of these counts? to prevent future msitakes

Megicula was getting negged by Charlotte's anti-curse. Then Megicula grew more powerful and resisted Charlotte's Anti curse, Then Charlotte got amped and negged her curses again. This is one layer for Megi and one for Charlotte, right?

80% Dante's regen got negated by Jack and 100% Dante adapted to Jack's negation.

Yuno's erosion got casually resisted by dark disciple, Yuno of course got more magic and negged the resistance, Zenon resisted Yuno's corrosion, Yuno negged it on their rematch, Zenon resisted again at 100%, Yuno negged it with more magic in his attack, Zenon became a devil and negged Yuno again, Yuno gains plasma energy to vape the bones instead.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

This not a VerseRule, what you show are just a few cases. You can't randomly add a new layer of Hax because character X got stronger without any feat.

 

[azontr]

This not a VerseRule, what you show are just a few cases. You can't randomly add a new layer of Hax because character X got stronger without any feat.

Since when do layers have to be displayed as a rule in verse? All the examples that Arnold just sent are layered.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Since when do layers have to be displayed as a rule in verse? All the examples that Arnold just sent are layered.

The cases he showed are legitimate, but what he means is that any character in BC gets a new layer after getting stronger, no matter what

 

[Epsilon_R]

Can you (or someone else) post scans of Asta's strength and sword/fighting skills? I really have a vague view of Asta in that department because anti-magic is what helps him beating his enemies. If people say asta is as skilled or even better than meldris, I don't know what they mean.

I'll do it tomorrow I'm going to sleep pretty soon. But you can check Asta's intelligence section

Also does cutting magic with anti magic require the same strength as without it? Is something like that explained in the manga?

Cutting Magic with AM doesn't require strength

As of now, I am thinking that meldris are more skilled (with sword and fist) and have more strength than Asta.
Here some base strength/skill feats from season 1 Meliodas

I don't need strength feats though.. Strength is determined by the AP, SS and LS ratings each character have in their profile

Catches a spear thrown by Gilthunder that was stated to destroy a town, and

Strength, not skill

accurately throws it back over 7 miles.

Skill

Casually slashes away Dianes magic(counter vanish, can also do it without weapons)

Seems like Power null?

Physically dominates Holy Knight Ruin. Ruin's punch on Meliodas created a crater. Meliodas tanks more of these.

Strength only, nothing skill related here

Fight between Meliodas and Diane.
Slashes hard enough to create air blasts from wind pressure. (not magic)

Skill

Can Asta do this with 1 swing?

He can't, so you have something here

Can Asta do this with air pressure from his sword?

No but that's just Meliodas' strength

Some fighting skills from Meliodas

Okay that's a good feat, although it can be countered with Precog and IR

I have posted enough strength/skill feats for now,

Most of them are strength feats and have nothing to do with skill though

Yuno can't attack from within ON. God nulls magic.

Once again, Yuno resists power null

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Asta kinda claps with Anti-Magic

 

[VsReferee]

Asta kinda claps with Anti-Magic

I dont get it. If zeldris or Meliodas is having a physical battle with Asta (after seeing magic gets negated), how would his anti magic help if their bodies arent magical? If they were magical i would undestandbut even their amps arent magical.

Care to explain?

 

[Makai641001]

Once again, Yuno resists power null

How many Layers can He resist t?
Demons produce miasma Negative energy and darkness the negative energy gets layers with the demons getting stronger DM 2 to AM is an exemple they Also resist their own negative energy effects and scale to them

Asta kinda claps with Anti-Magic

I don’t really see an argument here