Minecraft Lifting Strength Update

[GyroNutz]

So I've done this calculation which has been recently accepted. This would scale Steve to At least Class K lifting strength using Obsidian instead of Gold Blocks. I've laid out the logic in the calc blog (pistons can push 12 Gold Blocks at a time, but cannot budge Obsidian). And I suggest that all mobs that could feasibly lift something should get this rating.

Basically, this comes down to two mobs - the Pig and the Chicken. Both of these are passive mobs, and should be considerably weaker than any notable hostile mob. Yet the Pig is capable of carrying the Player holding two obsidian blocks on its back, and the Chicken can carry (baby) Zombies who can do the same (Note: needs further testing). Many mobs (Piglins, Hoglins) are basically beefed up versions of the Pig anyway, and mobs like the Enderman are explicitly stated to be stronger than Zombies in the Mobestiary. It is also shown somewhat that mobs with higher lifting strength should be considered to be stronger overall - Wolves naturally flee from Llamas who can carry more items (their Strength NBT tag).

Proposal 1: Any mob that can feasibly lift something (includes mobs like Vindicators, Wither Skeletons) should be considered to have "At least Class K" lifting strength via upscaling from passive mobs, such as the Pig and possibly the Chicken.

Proposal 2: Any mob that has Class 50 + a couple others who have direct scaling (e.g. Llamas and Shulkers, who are currently listed as "Unknown") should be updated accordingly. Zombies would get Class K lifting strength, but would scale to a lesser value (232,683 kg) due to only being able to pick up a single Obsidian block. Skeletons and Spiders would be downgraded to Class 5 as Skeletons cannot naturally pick up Obsidian blocks, but can wear Golden Armour which weighs 1083 kg.

 

[MinecraftHater2011]

Agree

 

[FinePoint]

This seems like an acceptable approach.
The entire purpose of pistons is to push/lift things, so it seems like a good standard for Lifting Strength scaling for Steve.
Since Minecraft obsidian is clearly not normal obsidian, the discrepancy doesn't matter.

Though, for scaling to other mobs, is there any actual way for a chicken jockey to be holding two obsidian blocks without cheating?
If not, I'm not sure chickens can be used as a base. If they can only hold one you could use that. Pigs should be fine though.

Edit: After some testing, it seems that adult zombies can pick up ONE obsidian block, and babies can't pick them up at all.

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

This seems like an acceptable approach.
The entire purpose of pistons is to push/lift things, so it seems like a good standard for Lifting Strength scaling for Steve.
Since Minecraft obsidian is clearly not normal obsidian, the discrepancy doesn't matter.

Though, for scaling to other mobs, is there any actual way for a chicken jockey to be holding two obsidian blocks without cheating?
If not, I'm not sure chickens can be used as a base. If they can only hold one you could use that. Pigs should be fine though.

just throw two blocks of obsidian at the baby zombie and if its able to pick up things itll pick them up

 

[FinePoint]

just throw two blocks of obsidian at the baby zombie and if its able to pick up things itll pick them up

I knew that, but it will put one in its offhand too?

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

i dont know actually, i think so? i dont have minecraft on pc so can someone else go check

 

[FinePoint]

i dont know actually, i think so? i dont have minecraft on pc so can someone else go check

I suppose I will just check right now. Be right back.

 

[FinePoint]

It seems it refuses to pick it up at all. They might only pick up equipment.
If there's no actual way for them to pick up Obsidian, then that would invalidate this scaling.
I believe Endermen can't pick it up either.

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

of the mobs that can pick up items only certain ones actually do, try a few more

 

[FinePoint]

I got an adult zombie to pick up one block, but he won't pick up two.
I'll try more babies.

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

k, if it picks up one but not the other then i dont think they can use their off hand

 

[FinePoint]

I can't get a single baby to pick up obsidian.

 

[FinePoint]

k, if it picks up one but not the other then i dont think they can use their off hand

I'll look into the babies more, but since this seems to be the case zombies (and by extension chickens) should only scale to one block.
It makes sense for the player to be stronger.

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

huh, thats weird, i guess they cant pick up things at all?

 

[FinePoint]

huh, thats weird, i guess they cant pick up things at all?

Yeah, I threw some armor and weapons in there and none of them bit on that either.
The adults on the other hand ate it up very quickly, so it seems it's an adult-only ability.
This will affect the chicken economy.

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

i tried looking it up and some people claim they've seen it but idk, i know they can spawn with armor and swords though

 

[FinePoint]

i tried looking it up and some people claim they've seen it but idk, i know they can spawn with armor and swords though

They can spawn with them, but I'm testing it with hundreds of them right now, even in hardcore mode they don't pick up a single thing.
They definitely don't spawn with obsidian, so that's not really relevant.
I also see old bug reports talking about them picking stuff up. I wonder if they removed it because it was too buggy?

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

i guess just scale them and the chicken to gold armor and sword only, also apparently in bedrock baby zombies can ride much more than chickens, do we use bedrock stuff or just java

 

[FinePoint]

i guess just scale them and the chicken to gold armor and sword only, also apparently in bedrock baby zombies can ride much more than chickens, do we use bedrock stuff or just java

Speaking of, they might pick stuff up in Bedrock. I can't test that version.
So, I suppose this is a very important question.

 

[FinePoint]

Assuming we use Java as the central source, we have:

Baby Zombies, Chickens: Golden Armor + Axe
Adult Zombie: 1 obsidian
Player, Pigs: 2 obsidian
Endermen: 0 obsidian

 

[TheGatememer]

I now have the mental image of a chicken lifting an airplane and that terrifies me.

But this revision seems fine I think. Though, I don't think mobs can pick up two obsidian blocks at once.

 

[MishimaBloodline]

I now have the mental image of a chicken lifting an airplane and that terrifies me.

Thank god the FDA forbids giving chicken steroids now...

 

[GyroNutz]

Ok, slight corrections then.

It's true that Zombies can't dual-wield picked up items (without commands), so they'd be limited to just one Obsidian block + the weight of gold armour (less for Baby Zombies). Even with all of these corrections though, a single Obsidian block would weigh 231,600 kg which is still Class K.

I didn't know that Baby Zombies don't pick up items - it's not documented anywhere on the Minecraft wiki. I'll test it myself at some point, but I suppose that argument can be considered to be void.

I'll update my proposals in the OP.

 

[GyroNutz]

bump

 

[Lou_change]

Don't know if this works pistons can push up to twelve blocks so 13 slime blocks or hay do the same as obsidian but if it does there is something else that would increase the results netherite blocks a single netherite ingot is made with four gold ingots that quadruples the results(not counting the ancient debris) as they can be pushed by pistons.

 

[GyroNutz]

I'm not too sure what your argument is tbh. Using crafting recipes would be game mechanics, otherwise we would have accepted Enchanted Golden Apples or even Anvils in the past. Something to do with it not being a 1:1 representation of what the blocks are actually made of.

 

[Lou_change]

My argument is pistons not being able to push more then 12 blocks of dirt makes me question why 12 gold blocks would be more accurate to use.

And as a reminder gold blocks float in water and stay floating the air.

Also enchanted golden apples can't be crafted anymore.

 

[GyroNutz]

My argument is pistons not being able to push more then 12 blocks of dirt makes me question why 12 gold blocks would be more accurate to use.

What factor do you think is preventing the piston from pushing 12 blocks, or a block of obsidian (or anything obsidian based, for that matter)?

And as a reminder gold blocks float in water and stay floating the air.

Do you truly think that sand blocks are therefore heavier than gold blocks? That gold blocks are weightless? Blocks have always stayed airborne once placed, that's game mechanics.

Also enchanted golden apples can't be crafted anymore.

Partly why I said "in the past". Plus, anvils would still be heavier than gold blocks going by crafting recipes.

 

[Lou_change]

I guess it's fine proposal 2 looks better.

 

[GyroNutz]

bump

 

[Giannysmag]

bump

 

[GyroNutz]

Alright I'll tag some staff

@Mr._Bambu @Crabwhale @Moritzva @KieranH10

 

[FinePoint]

Alright I'll tag some staff

@Mr._Bambu @Crabwhale @Moritzva @KieranH10

Good idea.

Must be convenient to tag I gotta go and message people manually smh

 

[Crabwhale]

Meeeeeeeeeeh, I'm very iffy about this. While you could interpret this as sheer weight, the fact is a good deal is made out of how Obsidian is the toughest block in the game the player can normally access. So that can easily fall into the game mechanics pit like the other ones mentioned. Leaning on disagree.

 

[FinePoint]

Meeeeeeeeeeh, I'm very iffy about this. While you could interpret this as sheer weight, the fact is a good deal is made out of how Obsidian is the toughest block in the game the player can normally access. So that can easily fall into the game mechanics pit like the other ones mentioned. Leaning on disagree.

While I agree that hype is probably the underlying reason you can't push it, how else do you interpret a piston not being able to push it upwards with no other resistance?

The assumption that it's because it's tethered to an xyz coordinate harder feels like leaning on game mechanics even more.

 

[Crabwhale]

See I can easily flip this on it's head and say why should a Jukebox be counted as extremely light? There is literally no distinction between the two blocks in this regard. You may say "well a Jukebox is an instrument, it can't be that heavy, and Obsidian is the hardest thing obtainable by the player in the game", but why should we interpret that hardness as any more of a basis for the Obsidian to be that heavy?

It also becomes a further janky thesis when you consider hardness and density don't have to correlate at all, and frequently don't, in fact. Gold and lead are frequently cited as very dense metals, and meanwhile gold is also noted for how soft and weak it is, even in Minecraft itself no less. Also, lead is literally a liquid at room temperature.

On the other hand, you have actual, real world diamonds that are the hardest known material to us, and yet have an average density less than half that of iron.

All of this makes me lean on a disagree for this.

 

[FinePoint]

See I can easily flip this on it's head and say why should a Jukebox be counted as extremely? There is literally no distinction between the two blocks in this regard. You may say "well a Jukebox is an instrument, it can't be that heavy, and Obsidian is the hardest thing obtainable by the player in the game", but why should we interpret that hardness as any more of a basis for the Obsidian to be that heavy?

I've... uh, never tried to piston a jukebox.
I didn't even think of looking at the list of non-pistonable blocks.

It's actually quite long, and includes a myriad of blocks which are just made of wood or other things.
So, actually, I have to agree with you.
It doesn't seem the piston is reliable at all, and so I don't think this CRT works.

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

damn

 

[GyroNutz]

I mean I already explained the Jukebox stuff in my blog.

"The Piston also has another limitation however - it cannot move certain blocks. These include Obsidian and Obsidian-based blocks (Crying Obsidian, Respawn Anchor, Beacon), unbreakable blocks, "container" blocks (Anything with an item interface, like Chests, Furnaces, Grindstones, Jukeboxes etc) or other blocks that can't be moved due to game mechanics (End Portal frames, Extended Pistons, Lodestones). The takeaway here? Aside from the "game mechanics" blocks, Obsidian cannot be moved by pistons. This is a clear indication that Obsidian is far more dense (and therefore heavier) than any other obtainable block in the game."

The Jukebox cannot be moved because it's a container block. Meanwhile Crying Obsidian has no purpose in Minecraft other than as a crafting material, yet it can't be moved by pistons. Any block with obsidian in its crafting recipe cannot be moved by pistons. I don't think it's fair to equate Jukeboxes and Obsidian blocks here.

 

[FinePoint]

I mean I already explained the Jukebox stuff in my blog.

"The Piston also has another limitation however - it cannot move certain blocks. These include Obsidian and Obsidian-based blocks (Crying Obsidian, Respawn Anchor, Beacon), unbreakable blocks, "container" blocks (Anything with an item interface, like Chests, Furnaces, Grindstones, Jukeboxes etc) or other blocks that can't be moved due to game mechanics (End Portal frames, Extended Pistons, Lodestones). The takeaway here? Aside from the "game mechanics" blocks, Obsidian cannot be moved by pistons. This is a clear indication that Obsidian is far more dense (and therefore heavier) than any other obtainable block in the game."

The Jukebox cannot be moved because it's a container block. Meanwhile Crying Obsidian has no purpose in Minecraft other than as a crafting material, yet it can't be moved by pistons. Any block with obsidian in its crafting recipe cannot be moved by pistons. I don't think it's fair to equate Jukeboxes and Obsidian blocks here.

Daylight sensors?
You could file obsidian under game mechanics too, because pushing it would break nether portals similar to end portal frames.