Minor additions for Cerberus :

[SYPHe5D]

As the title suggestion this thread will mostly be about some minor stuff for Cerberus( best dog btw):
Absolute zero for Dmc 3 Cerberus: In dmc 5’s novel before the nightmare, we learn that Dante had kept Cerberus and used it against balrog, why is this note worthy? Well in the fight Cerberus was able to completely extinguish Balrog’s fire, this is impressive since balrog is stated to be the king of the fire hell and the king of flames,this will mean that his flames will scale relative to ifrit’s flames if not higher, ifrit in dmc 1 is able to evaporate Frost’s beyond absolute zero ice/Air,the same Frosts that are stated to be impervious to the volcanic fire of the Demon world and it requires higher realms of fire to affect it. This all makes sense since king Cerberus is also stated to have Absolute zero ice also which should mean that the entire tribe can do the same,Dante even goes as far to imply that the ice powers that king Cerberus was using are similar to Dmc 3’s Cerberus.(basically Cerberus’s ice will be capable doing everything the frost could but on a much higher extent)
Soul Manipulation and Non-physical interaction: As you ve seen earlier king Cerberus was stated to be able to Freeze you down to your very soul which should grant him these abilities ( and the other P&A that comes with the soul in DMC) and it also would scale to DMC 3’s Cerberus as well.
Agree: Planck69,Elizhaa,Theglassman12,UchihaSlayer96(agrees with AZ but neutral on the rest),LordGriffin1000,SupersonicTL,Georadannea15,RM97,Tanin_iver,LuffyRuffy46307,Random-Helper323,Magiccomethkuon,TheGreatJedi13(agrees with AZ and Non-Physical Interaction but unsure about Soul Manipulation),GilverTheProtoAngelo
Disagree: Deagonx (only disagrees with soûl manip and non physical interaction),Palito266( believes king Cerberus is exaggerating)

 

[SuperSonicTL]

That's impressive ngl

 

[Deagonx]

Absolute Zero seems straightforward enough. What is the reasoning for Matter Manip?

Soul Manipulation and Non-physical interaction: As you ve seen earlier king Cerberus was stated to be able to Freeze you down to your very soul which should grant him these abilities ( and the other P&A that comes with the soul in DMC) and it also would scale to DMC 3’s Cerberus as well.

I don't think that phrase is sufficient for these abilities. Usually "down to" refers to what remains after a process, so a house being "burned down to ashes" means the ashes are what's left. Or "melted down to fragments" means the fragments remain.

In that sense, "freeze down to your very soul" just makes it sounds like he's threatening to destroy his physical body completely by freezing it, not that his ice power cans affect the soul or non-physical things, so I would disagree with that.

 

[SYPHe5D]

- Down here is used to refer to the significant damage that he is going to deal to Dante since he is going to freeze his souls along with his body.
As for matter manipulation like I said, Cerberus should be able to do what frost can do which is manipulating absolute zero ice on molecular level, it is stated in the file. ( also I noticed that the first link doesn’t have the time stamps so I’ll fix that rq)
-That’s not what he is implying tho, freezing you down to your very soul here is referring to him freezing Dante to his very soul aka affecting it and freezing it, now I do understand why such skepticism are brought up to such statements but with a verse that basically every demon can already affect the soul in multiple different ways it is not that hard for it to be taken as literal, especially when king Cerberus has absolutely no reason to lie about his capabilities.

 

[Deagonx]

especially when king Cerberus has absolutely no reason to lie about his capabilities.

To be clear, I am not claiming King Cerberus is lying, I do not think the statement implies what you have said.

As for matter manipulation like I said, Cerberus should be able to do what frost can do which is manipulating absolute zero ice on molecular level, it is stated in the file

Is Absolute Zero normally accompanied by matter manip?

 

[SYPHe5D]

To be clear, I am not claiming King Cerberus is lying, I do not think the statement implies what you have said.


Is Absolute Zero normally accompanied by matter manip?

As far as I’m aware the page assume that absolute zero freezes molecules/ atoms or something of that sort, here is the page https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Absolute_Zero , feel free to correct me if I’m wrong

 

[Deagonx]

Yeah but I just went through a couple users who have it and while some of them have Matter Manip for other reasons, it isn't something that is normally coupled with it automatically.

 

[SYPHe5D]

Yeah but I just went through a couple users who have it and while some of them have Matter Manip for other reasons, it isn't something that is normally coupled with it automatically.

That’s weird, either way I don’t really care for matter manipulation all that much so I’ll wait for the other supporters and the other staff to give their thoughts on the matter.

 

[Planck69]

Absolute Zero is fine. Matter Manipulation isn't something that's always given by default alongside it, so there'd need to be another feat to support it.

I do not have a problem with Soul Manipulation. While the sentiment can be hyperbolic in some instances, I'd say in a setting where soul abilities and damage are as ubiquitous as here, it should be fine to add. Worst comes to worst, a Possibly/Likely addition should be good.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Yeah but I just went through a couple users who have it and while some of them have Matter Manip for other reasons, it isn't something that is normally coupled with it automatically.

And none of the absolute zero examples have "Matter Manipulation" accompanied. Just giving the information.

 

[SYPHe5D]

matter manipulation can go then.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Unexpected but still a good catch. Agree.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Absolute zero for Cerberus should be all good. Balrog should actually be superior to Ifrit if anything, and it always seemed a bit strange for a boss and Temen-Ni-Gru guardian like Cerberus to have weaker ice powers than foot soldiers like the Frosts. This nicely fixes that, with solid scaling to demonstrate it.

Isn't non-physical interaction and soul manipulation practically a default demon ability, what with wanting to steal souls and intangible demons being pretty common in the story?

 

[SYPHe5D]

Absolute zero for Cerberus should be all good. Balrog should actually be superior to Ifrit if anything, and it always seemed a bit strange for a boss and Temen-Ni-Gru guardian like Cerberus to have weaker ice powers than foot soldiers like the Frosts. This nicely fixes that, with solid scaling to demonstrate it.

Isn't non-physical interaction and soul manipulation practically a default demon ability, what with wanting to steal souls and intangible demons being pretty common in the story?

Yeah but in this case the soul stuff will be feats for their ice as well.

 

[Georredannea15]

The OP seems simple, but if there is a problem with soul manipulation then it can be added in the "likely/possibly" way.

Is there any problem, my doner brother?

 

[SYPHe5D]

The OP seems simple, but if there is a problem with soul manipulation then it can be added in the "likely/possibly" way.

Is there any problem, my doner brother?

I don’t think there is any problem with the statement

 

[Georredannea15]

I don’t think there is any problem with the statement

Then all we'll do is eat doner while we wait.

 

[RM97]

Agree with Absolute Zero, Soul Manip, and NPI.

 

[Elizhaa]

Absolute Zero is fine. Matter Manipulation isn't something that's always given by default alongside it, so there'd need to be another feat to support it.

I do not have a problem with Soul Manipulation. While the sentiment can be hyperbolic in some instances, I'd say in a setting where soul abilities and damage are as ubiquitous as here, it should be fine to add. Worst comes to worst, a Possibly/Likely addition should be good.

I agree with Plank69's points.

 

[Tanin_iver]

I don't think that phrase is sufficient for these abilities. Usually "down to" refers to what remains after a process, so a house being "burned down to ashes" means the ashes are what's left. Or "melted down to fragments" means the fragments remain.

That's a False Analogy. Here it is expressed as "down to your very soul" instead of "down to your soul" which u seem to have conveniently missed out. In such cases it doesn't refer to what remains after a process, rather what level the process can affect. For example dipping ur hand in acid will not only dissolve ur flesh but ur very bones too. As u can see here, down to ur very bones doesn't mean the bones will remain and the flesh is the only thing that will get dissolved.
Also as others have pointed out, in a setting where soul abilities and damage are pretty ubiquitous, "down to your very soul" most definitely means soul freezing in this particular instance.

Isn't non-physical interaction and soul manipulation practically a default demon ability, what with wanting to steal souls and intangible demons being pretty common in the story?

Yeah but in this case the soul stuff will be feats for their ice as well.

I do find it redundant adding it cos DE takes care of it, but I suppose indexing it is better, plus more supportive feats.

And regarding Matter Manip, well AZ naturally has a limited level of Matter Manip and is understood I suppose, so maybe it isn't needed to index Matter Manip again unless there is a more broader usage of this ability.

 

[Deagonx]

That's a False Analogy. Here it is expressed as "down to your very soul" instead of "down to your soul" which u seem to have conveniently missed out. In such cases it doesn't refer to what remains after a process, rather what level the process can affect. For example dipping ur hand in acid will not only dissolve ur flesh but ur very bones too

If someone said this acid will dissolve you "down to your bones" vs "down to your very bones" I wouldn't think of them as meaning different things, personally. I'm not sure what the basis is for that.

I just think the phrasing is fairly vague and nebulous and in absence of anything more concrete soul manip should likely be left out.

 

[SYPHe5D]

There is nothing vague with the statement, it is as clear as it could get, but I’ll note your disagreement.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

This looks good

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Freezing you down to soul
is different
From freezing you down to YOUR soul

why is this even the counterargument to NPI

the same way saying
I will punch you down to atoms
is different from
I will punch you down to your last atoms

the first one will punch you until you're atoms

while the other will lunch you down down to the very last atoms you have until there is none

 

[Deagonx]

There is nothing vague with the statement, it is as clear as it could get, but I’ll note your disagreement.

It could get a lot clearer. It could say, for instance, "I will freeze your soul."

The statement as is doesn't require that he has soul manip or that he's going to affect the soul, as shown in a few examples.

 

[SYPHe5D]

It could get a lot clearer. It could say, foe instance, "I will freeze your soul."

doesn’t sound cool enough tbh.

 

[Deagonx]

Sure, I agree the original statement sounds cooler, it just doesn't mean the same thing.

 

[Deagonx]

the same way saying
I will punch you down to atoms
is different from
I will punch you down to your last atoms

the first one will punch you until you're atoms

while the other will lunch you down down to the very last atoms you have until there is none

The word "last" in your counter examples changes the meaning significantly.

 

[Tanin_iver]

It could get a lot clearer. It could say, foe instance, "I will freeze your soul."

Seriously, r u now arguing semantics and ways of expressing a feat. Or are u just being sarcastic?

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

The word "last" in your counter examples changes the meaning significantly.

You missed the point

Even if I remove last there
It meaning still becomes punching your atoms.

Or since you really want to be exact

I will burn you down to your soul.

Is a meaning to burn someone with the soul included.

While

I will burn you down to soul

Is a meaning to burn someone until there is only soul

What you argued is no longer containing possessive subject which is the soul

I will burn you down to ashes

Is meant to deliver burning someone into ashes

I will burn you down to your ashes

Which will burn you down even the ashes that you become

By adding your in that sentence allow changes the meaning because you're saying they posses something that you will also burn down

The same way if you say I will burn you down to bones

You will burn someone into bones

While
I will burn you down to your bones
Means you will burn it down including YOUR bone that you possess.


Now going back to ashes. Technically the guy has no ashes so we go with implications down you will burn someone down until they are ashes and even that will be burned. The same way when you say I will punch you down to you atoms is a sentence meant to convey that you will be punched down even if you're already in atoms

While I will punch you down to atoms means you will only punch someone until they are just atoms

 

[Deagonx]

While I will punch you down to atoms means you will only punch someone until they are just atoms

.... did you ask chatGPT?

Seriously, r u now arguing semantics and ways of expressing a feat. Or are u just being sarcastic?

I was told it "couldn't get any clearer."

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

I snapped a bit but no offense I respect your evaluation competency since I've agreed to many things you argued but tbh this one is kinda "this ain't it chief"

.... did you ask chatGPT?

I had to because every sentence parser online is incoherent for normal people to understand but the parser did agree that there is a possessive object that the subject possess that will be included in the verb and adjective that is to transpired or to happen

I = first subject = S1
You = 2nd subject = S2
Will freeze = verb
Down adjective to describe how the verb will be done to subject 2 (You)
To = where preposition I think this is also an adverb and #6->3 to show what it is referring to which is freezing
Your = referring to 2S and possessive of You(S2)
Soul = Noun which is someone S2 possesses
#8->6 meaning the noun is linked to the 6th which is "To" and in turn "To" links to freeze.

"Soul to freeze" in ooga booga language without sentence structure

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Down to includes whatever follows.

This hurts me, down to the core.
Down to you and me.
Down to the last detail.

All of these include the thing that follows the to. I'm neutral on that addition but I don't see what seems to be the problem with freezing down to the soul in this case.

 

[Deagonx]

Down to includes whatever follows.

It depends on the verb being used. Here are some example sentences I found online:

The anode was dissolved down to a thin wire
an animation of a body being dissolved down to its skeleton
Once the first teaspoon has dissolved down to a cloud of foam

In these phrases, the dissolution does not include what follows. In fact, it is the opposite, the noun after "down to" is the only thing remaining.

 

[Palito266]

I agree in regards to Absolute Zero to both Cerberus and King Cerberus.
But i disagree with NPI and Soul Hax simply because it seems like an exaggeration of King Cerberus especially knowing how prideful demons are.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

It depends on the verb being used. Here are some example sentences I found online:
In these phrases, the dissolution does not include what follows. In fact, it is the opposite, the noun after "down to" is the only thing remaining.

This may be delving too deep into semantics but I find that in some of the examples under that definition still have the other thing at least be reached so to speak, if not as thoroughly included as the first definition is. But I'll take both points for the sake of advancing the discussion. Why not further judge it including the context, then? DMC as a franchise has many demons and the implied existence of a soul to be affected isn't something that only happens here. The Devil Arms made from these very demons are in a way crystallization of their souls, and these forums do accept Soul Manipulation for Demon Physiology as a rule of thumb.

Puttting these pieces together, wouldn't it be more likely that the including your soul definition of Down to is the one being used in context rather than everything but the soul?

 

[Deagonx]

I suppose I'm just more skeptical. IMO if this character really has soul manip and if we are meant to understand the character as having this ability, shouldn't there be some stronger indication than a single taunt of uncertain meaning?

 

[SYPHe5D]

A series that establishes its demons being capable of manipulating and interacting with the soul and non physical entities doesn’t have to repeatedly throw a statement every single time,KC is not taunting Dante, he is stating that he is going to do that when he utilizes his ice powers during the fight, I don’t believe that a series has to always throw dozens of statements for any character for them to be able to do what they have already stated once, tho i do understand from where you are coming from, if a verse doesn’t already establish( At least one time) the said entities being capable of doing the feat then that makes it shaky to work with.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I don't know why we even needed to make a CRT for magical ice to have soul hax. As if it isn't already established that magic/energy has soul hax by default.
Doesn't matter if it's magical air or magical fart, if it's magic then it's soul hax.

But these days in spoonfood statements are not enough. So not surprised with the following discourse.

 

[TaiwaneseScaler]

Wait......Whats that behind you?