Miracle Eye nerf

[Wokistan]

So, apparently this is counted as resistance negation. Someone asked if miracle eye let mewtwo neg mindhax resist, I googled what miracle eye was, saw it said removes dark type resist, and said "I guess". However, reading stuff around this more closely, I don't think this should be the case.

Sourcing Bulbapedia for what I say about the move. If people don't like that feel free to post shit from the games that contradict it.

The move is noted to only work at negating the resistance of dark types (it saying ghost type for diamond and pearl being a typo), but that isn't the only type that resists psychic's stuff.

As we see here, psychic types themselves as well as steel types are resistant to psychic attacks. However, miracle eye doesn't work on them. It's dark type specific. Even before going further into why I don't even think the dark type thing is valid, the rules of pokemon already dictate that Miracle Eye's resistance negation cannot be generalized beyond dark type. There's no reason for it to fail against inferior resistances otherwise. As such, it shouldn't really mean anything on the site, since we don't really ascribe pokemon types to enemies unless it's really apparent stuff like someone being made of fire.

However, as alluded to above, I don't think it even really applies to dark types. Let's take a closer look at the specific wording of the move, shall we? It states that it "Enables the user to hit a Dark type with any type of move," or that it "Enables a Dark-type target to be hit by Psychic-type attacks." This wording more sounds like psychic pokemon have trouble properly targeting dark types instead of dark types resisting, since it specifically says they are now able to be hit (meaning previously they couldn't even be hit) as opposed to saying something like "they are now vulnerable to psychic moves/can be affected by psychic moves/can be hurt by psychic moves" (which would imply previously that they were just tanking them with no effect, aka a resistance). Saying dark types are hard to target as opposed to being resistant is also more consistent with the primary function of the move. Here's what Bulbapedia has to say on the matter:

Miracle Eye causes accuracy checks against the target to ignore changes to the target's evasion stat stages if its evasion stat stage is greater than 0. If Miracle Eye's target is a Dark-type Pokémon, it also removes the target's immunity to Psychic-type moves. Miracle Eye's effect ends when the target switches out.

Miracle Eye bypasses accuracy checks to always hit its target, unless the target is in the semi-invulnerable turn of a move such as Dig or Fly.

Basically, the move negates dodging. It also negs dark types immunity, which as we've seen before, is described as allowing them to hit. This can all be done with one function. To assume it instead is negating resistances would be to ascribe a secondary, different function to the one move. Obviously this is possible, but the one with an extra step should not be assumed in an uncertain scenario. If saying it's an anti dodging effect fulfils both criteria without resorting to really ridiculous assumptions, then it should be prioritized over saying it's both an anti dodging effect and a resistance neg effect.

Also, there are just things it kinda makes no sense for dark pokemon to flat out be immune to when they aren't just immune to force/heat/whatever. Let's start going down the list of psychic moves that would be weird for it to flat out resist. Before that, we'll post what its resists are:

So in game terms, it resists itself and ghost and is immune to psychic. Keep that in mind. Forums wanna be a lil bitch so I gotta screenshot my previews. As such, you can't really copy and paste what I said or easily quote parts of it. Sorry.

Force

So that's 21 moves that it doesn't make sense for dark types to be able to just facetank, since they're doing things other types do. What does work for all of them is that psychics can't target dark types properly for whatever reason, and this is also supported by Miracle Eye's descriptions. This also explains how the immunity holds up against really insane power gaps.

TLDR: Best case scenario, miracle eye's resistance neg can't be generalized outside pokemon dark types. Worst case scenario, dark types shouldn't be considered to innately resist psychic types, miracle eye loses resitance neg entirely.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

You lost me at targeting.

 

[Wokistan]

I mean even that starts up after the bit about it not negging the psychic or steel type resists.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Yeah, the "not being able to target" thing was the only thing that jumped out at me. It's the only part of this I consider questionable.

 

[Wokistan]

What problems do you two have with that argument?

 

[Chariot190]

I mean, I get your point, and I don't even inherently disagree (at the very least, it should be more limited).
But, Miracle Eye only effects Dark types because Dark type is the only type immune to Psychic, it doesnt get rid of resistances, given while they resist it, psychic can still mess with them, it gets rid of immunity, there's a slight difference.

Also idk, how is Miracle Eye portrayed in other media? In Pokken I know it's pretty ******* weird, and broken as **** and needed a patch, but still.

 

[Axxtentacle]

I'm not sure if i'm just missing something in your OP, but what really implies Psychics can't target Dark types?

 

[Chariot190]

From what I recall in all known Pokemon media, well, at the very least spinoff games, anime and manga. Psychic type moves can hit Dark types, the issue is it wont do anything. Vaguely recall an example with Murkrow and Sabyleye.

 

[Wokistan]

Dark types still are immune (in gameplay terms) to psychic stuff, and miracle eye talks about making them hittable which implies the issue before was being unable to properly hit dark types as opposed to dark types facetanking. That's also consistent with the more general effects of miracle eye, and allows for dark types being gameplay immune to those 21 moves to not be contradictory.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Honestly, i'm just gonna remain neutral. I understand it now, but it still just seems... weird to me.

 

[Chariot190]

Dark types still are immune (in gameplay terms) to psychic stuff, and miracle eye talks about making them hittable which implies the issue before was being unable to properly hit dark types as opposed to dark types facetanking. That's also consistent with the more general effects of miracle eye, and allows for dark types being gameplay immune to those 21 moves to not be contradictory.

When it says hit it really doesnt mean that previously dark types simply dodged all the psychic moves. It means that in gameplay, the attacks actually hit, as in they do shit now.
And given we know for a fact that Dark types actually are just facetanking (it's been shown before to be how that works, kinda like ground types tanking electric moves).

I'm going to say that, no, Miracle Eye doesn't just somehow make Dark types stop dodging because we know they arent dodging, they're just not effected. I can agree with Miracle Eye being more hyperspecific in it's use, but the whole dodging thing is not what's actually being said and is demonstrably false.

And as for those 21 moves, I mean, that's just fiction being weird. We know dark types can facetank things like psychic (the move) simply because it's psychic type.

 

[Wokistan]

"And given we know for a fact that Dark types actually are just facetanking (it's been shown before to be how that works, kinda like ground types tanking electric moves)."

As the 21 moves show, that doesn't really make much sense, especially when a few of the psychic moves are legit just biting and headbutting people. Can you provide an example of dark types in the anime or something being hit and no selling?

 

[Chariot190]

"And given we know for a fact that Dark types actually are just facetanking (it's been shown before to be how that works, kinda like ground types tanking electric moves)."

As the 21 moves show, that doesn't really make much sense, especially when a few of the psychic moves are legit just biting and headbutting people. Can you provide an example of dark types in the anime or something being hit and no selling?

It doesnt make sense, but sometimes it be like that.
Dark types are immune to psychic moves by virtue of them being psychic type, that's literally it. And we know from anime and manga and all that that when it says immune, it quite literally means "they just sit there and take it".

I mean, I probably could but **** if I now where to start looking, it's gonna take a long ass time to skim through like 1500 episodes.

Best I could find on such short notice for Miracle Eye is Faba using it in the anime to allow his psychic moves to hurt Umbreon.

 

[Starter_Pack]

While I attempted to find evidence stating otherwise, I will relent that in terms of how Dark types should properly be categorized would be vague at best, and likely would have no relevance in a fight outside of battles against other Pokémon. This is a practice we already perform with other vague typings like Flying and Fighting.

However, the part of how the move works is flat-out incorrect due to how we index the abilities of Pokémon. Now, you could pick at hairs and say that due to the specific phrasing of the moves effect, it would imply that Dark types just get around Psychic types good. However, this is wrong, objectively, because we also take into consideration both the anime and manga in these situations. And both of these sources have Dark types flat-out taking no damage from Psychic attacks, examples of which can be found in the Miracle Eye page of Bulbapedia itself. There's no need to grammar check Game Freak here. Call a spade a spade.

Suffice to say, I will hesitantly agree to removing Resistance Negation in a general sense from Miracle Eye's effects, but removing a factual portion of the move's effect is something I cannot agree to.

 

[Chariot190]

While I attempted to find evidence stating otherwise, I will relent that in terms of how Dark types should properly be categorized would be vague at best, and likely would have no relevance in a fight outside of battles against other Pokémon. This is a practice we already perform with other vague typings like Flying and Fighting.

However, the part of how the move works is flat-out incorrect due to how we index the abilities of Pokémon. Now, you could pick at hairs and say that due to the specific phrasing of the moves effect, it would imply that Dark types just get around Psychic types good. However, this is wrong, objectively, because we also take into consideration both the anime and manga in these situations. And both of these sources have Dark types flat-out taking no damage from Psychic attacks, examples of which can be found in the Miracle Eye page of Bulbapedia itself. There's no need to grammar check Game Freak here. Call a spade a spade.

Suffice to say, I will hesitantly agree to removing Resistance Negation in a general sense from Miracle Eye's effects, but removing a factual portion of the move's effect is something I cannot agree to.

This basically. Give or take.

You could probably argue that Miracle Eye can work on things that resist psychic abilities due to some arbitrary dark nature or something (to clarify, if a character for some reason has resistance to psionic abilities due to being same dark nature or attribute, it should be fine), still hyperspecific and far and few between to run into such a case outside of pokemon, but it should be considered. Otherwise I agree in regards to removing Miracle Eye's resistance negation in a general sense.

 

[Wokistan]

If someone posts a psychic type being wacked we can probably conclude then, tbh. It doesn't seem like anyone is really contesting miracle eye not working outside pokemon dark type.

 

[Bobsican]

Also, Gravity is a bad example, it targets the field, rather than a particular target, and that move still affects Dark types regardless.

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean, I probably could but **** if I now where to start looking, it's gonna take a long ass time to skim through like 1500 episodes.

I'm not sure what my opinion is on this situation but Bulbapedia lists a move's appearances in the anime and manga, that'd be a better way to start looking.

 

[Chariot190]

I'm not sure what my opinion is on this situation but Bulbapedia lists a move's appearances in the anime and manga, that'd be a better way to start looking.

Already tried that, for all psychic moves, there's literally thousands of examples, bulbapedia doesnt clarify which have been used on dark types, only by who.
Manga would probably be quicker to skim honestly, Ill make an attempt when im free im it isnt done by someone else,

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Agreeing with Starter.

If anything couldn’t “Limited Resistance Neg” work better then?

 

[Antvasima]

So have you reached any conclusions here?

 

[Wokistan]

Just waiting on someone to post a dark type being hit with a psychic move in an anime or manga or something and then it can finish by dramatically reducing the scope of what Miracle Eye affects.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.