Mirage vs Nirvana: Xue Ying vs Mori Dan

[Planck69]

Drifting through the Primal Chaos Void in contemplation, Xue Ying comes across a cosmos cluster with a strange entity altering time and space to its will. Remembering the rather unpleasant recruitment attempts and practices of the Temporal Island, he resolves to step in and prevent him from potentially causing "harm" to this cosmos and its inhabitants.

Mori Dan is getting very tired of interdimensional travelers fighting him these days...

Unity realm Xue Ying and True God of Prophecy Mori Dan are used. Speed is equalized. Otherwise SBA. Prolly not my best idea but we'll see.

Lord of the Mirage: 4 (Eseseso, Setsuna_tenma, Success0906, RikimaroX2)

Nirvanic Entity: 0

Inconclusive: 0

 

[Rikimarox2]

What are Xue Ying's passives, and what does he start with?

Iirc Mori has passive Mind manip stuff that is layered.

Seeing Xue Ying's profile, he should be able to resist Info type 2 shit and concept stuff wouldn't even affect him. That said, how does Xue Ying's concept stuff work?

Also, the Incorporeality in Origin Birth on his profile seems honestly more like NEP considering the whole void and all that, unless it isn't shown to be special or smth.

 

[Planck69]

What are Xue Ying's passives, and what does he start with?

Passives; Information Manipulation (Type 2), Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1), Law Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, Dream Manipulation, Illusion Creation.

He opens with either Mirage realm (the mind/soul/dream stuff but active and more potent), Slaughter Dao attacks (Existence Erasure), or ripple attacks.

Iirc Mori has passive Mind manip stuff that is layered.

I see. Xue Ying's stuff is also layered but I haven't formalised it yet. Currently on the profile it's like 2 layers or so?

Seeing Xue Ying's profile, he should be able to resist Info type 2 shit and concept stuff wouldn't even affect him. That said, how does Xue Ying's concept stuff work?

His passive domain enforces his will via the Daos he's comprehended; Mirage, Slaughter and Ripple. So basically, concept facilitated EE and mind stuff. Active use varies a lot but he directly commands Daos to do what he wishes at a certain level.

Also, the Incorporeality in Origin Birth on his profile seems honestly more like NEP considering the whole void and all that, unless it isn't shown to be special or smth.

I was unsure about how to label it so I erred on the side of caution.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Passives; Information Manipulation (Type 2), Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1), Law Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, Dream Manipulation, Illusion Creation.

The concept type 1 stuff is the dangerous stuff if he actually does something with it. Does it destroy the opponent's concept or does he just it to do stuff like conceptual fire attack and shit? Also, type 2 info could be problematic if there are layers to it.

He opens with either Mirage realm (the mind/soul/dream stuff but active and more potent), Slaughter Dao attacks (Existence Erasure), or ripple attacks.

The passive stuff might actually make him immediately win this match depending on how concept 1 work. Also, if he opens the mirage stuff, does it increase the layers or just an unquantifiable boost?

I see. Xue Ying's stuff is also layered but I haven't formalised it yet. Currently on the profile it's like 2 layers or so?

I think the mind stuff is 2 layers as well, seeing the profile. So he might be fine. Tho don't cultivators in this verse have resistance to cultivators lower level than them, so the layers might be higher if that's the case?

His passive domain enforces his will via the Daos he's comprehended; Mirage, Slaughter and Ripple. So basically, concept facilitated EE and mind stuff. Active use varies a lot but he directly commands Daos to do what he wishes at a certain level.

Wdym by facilitated exactly? The question is if he does erase the target on conceptual level or if it's just powered by the concept to be stronger or to be just conceptual (ie the attack is conceptual, so normal ee resistance wouldn't help but it still wouldn't erase the target on conceptual level).

If he does erase the target conceptually, he might actually just win. Mori's time and fate stuff also shouldn't work on him due to his acausality and resistance.

I was unsure about how to label it so I erred on the side of caution.

Ah, well, if you ever revise it, try to bring it up as it might be a good ability. You can ping me, I'm all in for Chinamen.

 

[Planck69]

The concept type 1 stuff is the dangerous stuff if he actually does something with it. Does it destroy the opponent's concept or does he just it to do stuff like conceptual fire attack and shit? Also, type 2 info could be problematic if there are layers to it.

It enforces a concept rather than targeting the opponent's concept. So, Dao of Slaughter would be EE via a Type 1 concept, Dao of Mirage would be Type 1 Cm mind/soul hax, etc.

The passive stuff might actually make him immediately win this match depending on how concept 1 work. Also, if he opens the mirage stuff, does it increase the layers or just an unquantifiable boost?

More like the latter. Beings who could withstand his presence passively get negged by his mirage.

I think the mind stuff is 2 layers as well, seeing the profile. So he might be fine. Tho don't cultivators in this verse have resistance to cultivators lower level than them, so the layers might be higher if that's the case?

More or less, but it's a lot less clear with Lord Xue Ying than Desolate Era (IET's works are usually separate settings, save for LXY/Swallowed Star and Stellar Transformation/Coiled Dragon which are their own shared multiverses). I'll hash it out sometime in the near future.

Wdym by facilitated exactly? The question is if he does erase the target on conceptual level or if it's just powered by the concept to be stronger or to be just conceptual (ie the attack is conceptual, so normal ee resistance wouldn't help but it still wouldn't erase the target on conceptual level).

The latter, like I said above, I didn't understand the initial question.

 

[Rikimarox2]

So I don't think Xue Ying could actually put down Mori? Iirc they have cores and stuff, which have their concept, and Mori represents Duality, and if Xue Ying doesn't actually affect the opponent's concept, he won't be able to kill him.

That said, I'm not seeing a way for Mori to put down Xue Ying either due to the latter's resistances and stuff.

Though, quick question, how big is his domain? Mori iirc is bigger than creation itself.

Regardless, if the layers are correct and stuff, and their info type 2 are equal in terms of potency, I'm voting Incon.

 

[Planck69]

Would being Duality help Mori not be interacted with? Xue Ying has every Dao that exists integrated into his Mirage Origin. He just mainly uses his core Daos (Slaughter, Mirage, Ripple) for battle. Daos that include Yin, Yang, Spacetime, Extremity, Substance, etc.

All of XY's moves are at least as vast as his range, and given he can create over a hundred realities at this point via his Mirage, this shouldn't be too big an issue.

Should I put you as incon then?

 

[Planck69]

Bump.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Upon waking up and not being sleepy af anymore, as well as reviewing what I had said in this thread, honestly I'd say you should contact other GoH supporters, mostly since the dude still has resistance negation and I'm not sure if that applies to all of his abilities.

Honestly, if Xue Ying's domain can destroy other domains and some stuff (Which in turns shows that it can destroy conceptual stuff, and it's even passive), then I think Xue Ying wins since iirc Mori only has shown type 2 concept manip and he'll get constantly incapped by Xue Ying, buuuut the resistance negation Is still kind of putting me off and it could be that Xue Ying will also passively submit/be fear haxxed the moment the fight starts after looking at Mori's other fights.

I suggest @azontr or @DavidTPPM.

Retract my Incon vote for now.

 

[Planck69]

Upon waking up and not being sleepy af anymore, as well as reviewing what I had said in this thread, honestly I'd say you should contact other GoH supporters, mostly since the dude still has resistance negation and I'm not sure if that applies to all of his abilities.

Honestly, if Xue Ying's domain can destroy other domains and some stuff (Which in turns shows that it can destroy conceptual stuff, and it's even passive), then I think Xue Ying wins since iirc Mori only has shown type 2 concept manip and he'll get constantly incapped by Xue Ying, buuuut the resistance negation Is still kind of putting me off and it could be that Xue Ying will also passively submit/be fear haxxed the moment the fight starts after looking at Mori's other fights.

Retract my Incon vote for now.

His domain can overcome other domains and destroy them, yeah.

How does the fear-hax work? Assuming its separate from the resistance negation stuff, Xue Ying also resists that and its tied to his soul stuff as well.

 

[Rikimarox2]

How does the fear-hax work? Assuming its separate from the resistance negation stuff, Xue Ying also resists that and its tied to his soul stuff as well.

He just glances at someone and they give up instantly iirc. It's layered as well, based on what I remember.

 

[Planck69]

He just glances at someone and they give up instantly iirc. It's layered as well, based on what I remember.

Not sure if it'll work here. Xue Ying also resists fear hax, whose mechanism is tied to his soul and would similarly be tied to its layers. Not to mention, well, Xue would be scared even if it works, but Mori would be info/concept haxxed.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Xue via type 1 concept stuff

 

[Eseseso]

What are the win cons?

 

[Deleted member 40129]

Chinese man with them silky hairs for obvious reasons!!!

 

[Planck69]

Bump.

 

[Planck69]

What are the win cons?

Xue Ying has passive conceptual domain that Mori doesn't resist. Mori may or may not be able to use fear aura on Xue Ying, as far as I can tell.

 

[Rikimarox2]

I'm back yet again, and read a few more threads as well as the blog about GoH.

Anyways, I'm voting Xue Ying honestly unless GoH supporters bring up some new feats that isn't mention on the other threads. If what Planck said is true about the whole domain destroying other domains and stuff, then even if XY got fear haxxed, he'd still passively wins due to having enough range and the fact that his CM is type 1, whereas all of Mori's stuff, including AE, is type 2 concept, according to the other threads. Honestly Mori's only way to actually kill XY is if he used his Info type 2 as well as his resist neg, but they aren't passive afaik, so Xue Ying kind of just memes on him passively.

 

[Megaraptor149]

Xue Ying range? Mori has Immo9 and LS9 on 2-C scale (10 universes). This the only way to save him from Xue Ying CM1.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Xue Ying range? Mori has Immo9 and LS9 on 2-C scale (10 universes). This the only way to save him from Xue Ying CM1.

All of XY's moves are at least as vast as his range, and given he can create over a hundred realities at this point via his Mirage, this shouldn't be too big an issue.

 

[Megaraptor149]

And also Passive CM1, cant aint do shit tho

 

[Eseseso]

Xue Ying FRA

 

[Planck69]

Bump.

 

[Deleted member 40129]

Won't this just be a stomp? I just thought about it. I think this is a stomp in favor of Xue Ying; he has the higher AP and better hax advantage. And if I remember correctly, Mori doesn't even resist Erasure on Xue Ying's level.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Bump!
It would actually be nice to know what @DavidTPPM thinks.

 

[Yeolban]

Hi. I've just seen the thread, but no one here brought up that all of Nirvana Mori's hax are 4D in potency, so classic resistances are useless against them, no matter how many layers there are.

Can someone elaborate what "enforcing a concept" means?

 

[Planck69]

Hi. I've just seen the thread, but no one here brought up that all of Nirvana Mori's hax are 4D in potency, so classic resistances are useless against them, no matter how many layers there are.

Can someone elaborate what "enforcing a concept" means?

....You do realize all of Xue Ying's stuff is 4-D as well right?

The Dao Domain of a True God basically makes their surroundings follow their own laws as well as makes the concept it was built upon affect the environment. The Dao of Slaughter for example, naturally erases things from existence, which is what would happen here.

Also, minor but Xue Ying now has Mid-Godly regeneration.

 

[Yeolban]

....You do realize all of Xue Ying's stuff is 4-D as well right?

The key used is the one with the HDE in it? There's no other key that mentions any 4D Potency. But that key is 2B...

Also, minor but Xue Ying now has Mid-Godly regeneration.

Mori has High-Godly Regen (Information Manip type 2) via 666:Satan. It's in his profile on the Nirvana Borrowed Power Blog.

 

[Planck69]

The key is the one with the HDE in it? There's no other key that mentions any 4D Potency.



Mori has High-Godly Regen (Information Manip type 2) via 666:Satan. It's in his profile on the Nirvana Borrowed Power Blog.

Every key past World Deity has that potency, it's just not directly mentioned on the profile since I saw no need to.

Idk why you bring that up cause I didn't deny that (I'm just bringing up a recently finished CRT), but since Xue Ying's passive is on a Type 1 concept level then he's either gone or constantly getting deleted.

 

[Yeolban]

Every key past World Deity has that potency, it's just not directly mentioned on the profile since I saw no need to.

I'm sorry, I looked at the World Deity tab and I'm still not seeing any 4-D potency. Can you please quote it for me?

The Dao of Slaughter for example, naturally erases things from existence, which is what would happen here.

I mean, I get that this is a law that's imposed or whatever, but why wouldn't it get stopped by Mori's layered EE resistance? Sorry, I'm just kind of slow when it comes to this kind of stuff.

The way I understood it, this CM1 is a domain where it enforces a concept that everyone in it gets automatically EE'd. I don't see why someone with layered EE resistance can't survive this...? It's been said in this thread that this CM1 doesn't affect the target's concept.

 

[Planck69]

I'm sorry, I looked at the World Deity tab and I'm still not seeing any 4-D potency. Can you please quote it for me?



I mean, I get that this is a law that's imposed or whatever, but why wouldn't it get stopped by Mori's layered EE resistance? Sorry, I'm just kind of slow when it comes to this kind of stuff.

The way I understood it, this CM1 is a domain where it enforces a concept that everyone in it gets automatically EE'd. I don't see why someone with layered EE resistance can't survive this...? It's been said in this thread that this CM1 doesn't affect the target's concept.

At the World Deity key, he controls the Law of the World, which encompasses the entire River of Time and every single aspect of a cosmos (Chaos, Space-time, Extremity, etc.) This applies to all of his powers given that its the foundation of his cultivation. Daos are above even that.


He can affect and collapse other Domains, which themselves possess those concepts, something mentioned above.

 

[Yeolban]

Can Mori's Abstract Existence Type 1 and Omnipresence come into play anyhow here?

Similarly, Mori still has his resurrection that can bring him back from complete EE and his High Godly Regen. He also has Adaptation (albeit I don't know why it's called that when he developed permanent resistance to what he was affected by in the series. Whatever) where he should gain resistance to whatever ability he's affected by if he survives, which he would via the reasons mentioned above.

So if he has even a picosecond available, I don't see why Mori can't use his resistance negation and combine it with his layered mind manip passive, fear manipulation and his own EE or other things he has in his arsenal like layered power nullification, law, causality or fate manipulation. (Again, via his resistance negation)

May I add that also via Nirvana, he has attack reflection and power mimicry where he can immediately copy any ability he sees or reads from an opponent's mind- but that only applied to Satan. Mori also has Omniscience, so he's unrestricted by such things- He'd know all of Xue Ying's abilities from the very start. If that helps anyhow.

Can you please explain what these "Domains" are? You said that the domains possess the concept, but I am really not familiar with the verse.

 

[Planck69]

Can Mori's Abstract Existence Type 1 and Omnipresence come into play anyhow here?

Similarly, Mori still has his resurrection that can bring him back from complete EE and his High Godly Regen. He also has Adaptation (albeit I don't know why it's called that when he developed permanent resistance to what he was affected by in the series. Whatever) where he should gain resistance to whatever ability he's affected by if he survives, which he would via the reasons mentioned above.

So if he has even a picosecond available, I don't see why Mori can't use his resistance negation and combine it with his layered mind manip passive, fear manipulation and his own EE or other things he has in his arsenal like layered power nullification, law, causality or fate manipulation. (Again, via his resistance negation)

May I add that also via Nirvana, he has attack reflection and power mimicry where he can immediately copy any ability he sees or reads from an opponent's mind- but that only applied to Satan. Mori also has Omniscience, so he's unrestricted by such things- He'd know all of Xue Ying's abilities from the very start. If that helps anyhow.

Can you please explain what these "Domains" are? You said that the domains possess the concept, but I am really not familiar with the verse.

Xue Ying has greater range and can interact with both concepts and information so neither Abstract Existence nor Omnipresence matter here.

Yeah, but unless he's adapted to Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation, that doesn't really matter here. And since Mori regenerates from information and not a concept, if he's deleted on that level, he's gone.

Omniscience does not extend outside a verse, ever. He wouldn't know what Xue Ying can do due to that.

Mori also wouldn't have a picosecond available anyways, Domains are passive. And everything you've mentioned, Xue has and resists.

Nirvana being able to copy abilities wouldn't be useful for the same reason as above, passives mean he just kinda dies either repeatedly or just ceases to exist.

Domains are just that, Domains were by the law system and Dao of a cultivator alter reality to the user's choosing. Literally the quote says that if a Domain was "everyone dies" then that happens. This can even affect other weaker Domains, and destroy them.

 

[Yeolban]

Domains are just that, Domains were by the law system and Dao of a cultivator alter reality to the user's choosing. Literally the quote says that if a Domain was "everyone dies" then that happens. This can even affect other weaker Domains, and destroy them.

If it's a law system, Mori isn't affected by things like that. He cannot be bound by any.

So how do you determine if Mori's domain is weaker than Xue Ying's, setting aside that Mori wouldn't be bound by such a system?

And everything you've mentioned, Xue has and resists.

All of the layers of power nullification and Mori's res negation?

Yeah, but unless he's adapted to Type 1 Conceptual Manipulation, that doesn't really matter here. And since Mori regenerates from information and not a concept, if he's deleted on that level, he's gone.

Eh? Even though the CM doesn't affect his own concept directly?

Omniscience does not extend outside a verse, ever. He wouldn't know what Xue Ying can do due to that.

Even if that's true, Mori still has the ability to accurately pinpoint his target's abilities from a single glance.

Oh, and it would seem Xue's im9 negation isn't passive...? So Mori wouldn't get killed immediately anyway.

Also, a little bit off topic but double checking this, Mori should've also had high godly from CM2 and 3 but istg if someone deleted that. omg.

 

[Deleted member 40129]

Eh? Even though the CM doesn't affect his own concept directly?

It doesn't really matter if it hasn't shown dealing with personal concepts, Mori can't survive a Type 1 CM which results in a EE.

And if irc, Mori is not supposed to have that many layers as they all upscale from 3D hax and all of Mori's hax are 4D which automatically negates 3D haxes.

If it's a law system, Mori isn't affected by things like that. He cannot be bound by any.

He hasn't transcended any CM Type 1 law system. I am sorry.

Also, Xue has many other wincons besides EE. Also, Mori has nothing he can do to Xue as he resists everything he has on a higher level.

 

[Deleted member 40129]

Also, a little bit off topic but double checking this, Mori should've also had high godly from CM2 and 3 but istg if someone deleted that. omg

Why would he? CM type 3 doesn't grant HGR unless explicitly shown. And Mori has never shown to be able to regenerate from complete destruction of his existence after becoming one with the world.

 

[Planck69]

Xue Ying's law system is not only founded from Type 1 concepts, but it works on beings who resist law systems that work on Type 4 Acausals who are unbound by laws, just like Mori.

Adaptation generally doesn't cover stuff that isn't shown in verse. And Xue Ying can crush other Domains so interacting with concepts directly isn't an issue for him, like I said.

And in terms of strength/potency, Mori isn't really any better than most Void Gods in terms of his domain and laws. His dualities aren't that special here, given that even new Void Gods comprehend every single possible Dao as a part of their Origin (which going by just what's mentioned in-universe, would include Chaos, Space-time, Creation, Annihilation, Yin, Yang, Boundlessness, Minute, Substance etc.) as well as every other law/Dao that was comprehended from a Deity Heart in the setting.

Xue Ying's Type 9 Negation is from his Dao of Mirage, which is a part of his Domain (Alongside Slaughter and Ripple), which would be passive lol.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Mori has 4D aura meaning non-4D hax won't harm get past it. I see you said this

Every key past World Deity has that potency, it's just not directly mentioned on the profile since I saw no need to.

But hax being 4D or not is such a major factor that it SHOULD be on the profile. But if we decide to use it regardless since I'm don't think you're lying then we should also be open to use stuff that isn't on Moris page yet (because I didn't have time so to do so). What I'm talking about is Moris immeasurable speed. He's already pretty much accepted to fit the description on his profile

Attaining a state of Nirvana allows Mori to exist at any point of time within the universe… He is capable of seeing, existing, and maintaining all of creation, both past and future from this plane

The reason why this is important is that XY is also immeasurable, meaning speed equalization would still keep them at this level and immeasurable characters are faster than passives.

• Matches in which characters with Immeasurable speed lose against non-immeasurable passive abilities would likewise not be added, as the Immeasurable characters would normally be faster than the instantaneous passives.

Long story short either we use what IS in the profiles right now or we use what SHOULD be in the profiles. Either way allowing Mori to actually fight against the passive CM1

 

[CodeCCLL]

But hax being 4D or not is such a major factor that it SHOULD be on the profile. But if we decide to use it regardless since I'm don't think you're lying then we should also be open to use stuff that isn't on Moris page yet (because I didn't have time so to do so). What I'm talking about is Moris immeasurable speed. He's already pretty much accepted to fit the description on his profile

This is not the same thing, specifying the first in the profile is just optional but the second requires a crt.

 

[DavidTPPM]

This is not the same thing, specifying the first in the profile is just optional

Specifying something this important in a profile is not optional but necessary. Higher dimensional shenanigans have very strict rules and completely change the course of a battle. Like in this case it literally dictates whether or not the fight can even happen.

but the second requires a crt.

Mori freely existing throughout all time is already accepted. The only difference is whether we just classify it as omnipresence or specify he's immeasurable in speed and omnipresent in existence.
In both cases the justification is (or at least seems to be in YXs case) accepted and it's just not classified as such on the profile.