Mushoku Tensei Discussion Thread

[AlanGoji]

Was it not?

Here, right before they were about to destroy the Demon World. They were still able to summon a fish from the already collapsed Sea World

 

[Zabazab]

Here, right before they were about to destroy the Demon World. They were still able to summon a fish from the already collapsed Sea World

Ok Tier 2 is cooked for anyone that isn't Creator God I fear.

 

[Digital_Franz]

Ok Tier 2 is cooked for anyone that isn't Creator God I fear.

Uh uh.
Hitogami has a better feat as his attack destroyed the space-time.
Orsted has a better statement.
For the Sea World uh I don't know what author-sensei just cooked. Maybe the process wasn't finished. In the main story we know that these worlds are completely destroyed. Weird.
Also, I think that the destruction of a world after the death of its god takes longer compared to the direct destruction of the world by a god.

 

[Zabazab]

The first stage is denial.

 

[AlanGoji]

if saint class fighters are already putting out gigaton level attacks, then how strong are advanced class fighters supposed to be? like what’s the baseline and the strongest feat for that class in the verse? also, i heard there's a statement from the author saying that king and emperor class are kinda on the same level? is that legit, or is there more context behind it....

 

[Digital_Franz]

So long already

if saint class fighters are already putting out gigaton level attacks, then how strong are advanced class fighters supposed to be? like what’s the baseline and the strongest feat for that class in the verse?

Well, they are not really very powerful. They are probably just in Tier 8 (At most 8-C).

also, i heard there's a statement from the author saying that king and emperor class are kinda on the same level? is that legit, or is there more context behind it....

From this level on it's more a question of quantity of mana, something like that.

 

[Digital_Franz]

sorry for the late reply, but why? We know for sure that king level attacks should have the same AP as Badi literally says that it takes either a spell or a sword technique of that level to break through his battle aura, while Nina was able to at least scratch him with her saint level SoL. isn't that enough to say that the AP of spells and techniques at the same level should be roughly the same?

Indeed, but isn't the question about the difference between emperor-tier and king-tier? In any case, I'll think about that when I finish the scaling.

 

[Betatester0]

Indeed, but isn't the question about the difference between emperor-tier and king-tier? In any case, I'll think about that when I finish the scaling.

oh sorry, I misread, but still thanks because i wasn't sure about it myself.

and if there is such a possibility I wanted to ask if it is possible to use Wn and Subjugation of the King Dragon King as sources of additional information or will we just ignore them? for example like feats like the one where Rudeus froze the Great Forest which as far as I know was removed in Ln, or descriptions like when in Ln Rudeus says that his meteorite fell in a split second and in Wn he says that it seemed to teleport? in the case of Subjugation I wanted to read it because it is an additional story about Kalman 2 but it was written before MT and as stated has discrepancies with the main series, so will it be possible to use what does not contradict the story as real feats (if there is something useful there)?

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

oh sorry, I misread, but still thanks because i wasn't sure about it myself.

and if there is such a possibility I wanted to ask if it is possible to use Wn and Subjugation of the King Dragon King as sources of additional information or will we just ignore them? for example like feats like the one where Rudeus froze the Great Forest which as far as I know was removed in Ln, or descriptions like when in Ln Rudeus says that his meteorite fell in a split second and in Wn he says that it seemed to teleport? in the case of Subjugation I wanted to read it because it is an additional story about Kalman 2 but it was written before MT and as stated has discrepancies with the main series, so will it be possible to use what does not contradict the story as real feats (if there is something useful there)?

i think as long as WN doesnt contradict the main story it is fine to use, as is with most other light novels series on the platform

 

[Doggo]

Hello! As a huge fan of the series, how high will the verse scale? I want to know the tiers for the low,mid, and high tiers.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Hello! As a huge fan of the series, how high will the verse scale? I want to know the tiers for the low,mid, and high tiers.

the highest could be anywhere from high 6A, 5B to low 2C


Edit: is anybody even making the profile though?

 

[Digital_Franz]

Hello! As a huge fan of the series, how high will the verse scale? I want to know the tiers for the low,mid, and high tiers.

I'm back from my vacation and I've seen that no one has commented on the feats I posted. Well, I'm updating the tier now and with this I think I'll finish my contributions for now.

Well people, I proceed to update the scale with the data from volume 23, 24, 25 and 26:

TIER LIST

Orsted FP = Universal/Planet
Max of Paul´s Short Sword
Orsted = Dragon God
Kalman III Fighting Armor
Fighting God = Dragon God Laplace (Demon God x2)
Rudeus Magic Armor MK0
Mirai Old Rudeus Aqua Hartia Water (x5)
Young Man Rudeus Aqua Hartia Water (x5)
Mirai Old Rudeus Aqua Hartia Earth & Wind (x3)
Young Man Rudeus Aqua Hartia Earth & Wind (x3)
Laplace = Demon God = Technique God
Gino = Sword God
Kalman III = North God
Rudeus Magic Armor MKI
Gal Farion = Sword God
Kalman II = North God
Mirai Old Rudeus Magic
Young Man Rudeus Magic
Kalman I = North God
Reida = Water God

God Level = Atofe = Ogre God = Randolph = Death God

Eris LN15 = Nina LN 15 = Isolte = Mirai Old Rudeus With Armor
Youth Rudeus Aqua Hartia Water (x5) > 2,3 TER TNT

Imperial Level = Youth Rudeus Aqua Hartia Earth & Wind (x3) = Zanoba = Dogha = Ruijerd = Auber > 1,38 TER TNT

Youth Rudeus Aqua Hartia Fire (x2) > 920 GIG TNT
Hydra
Roxy Staff Water King (x2) > 460 GIG TNT
Badigadi = Almanfi = Ghislaine
Peridot

King Level = Youth Rudeus Magic = Wii Taa = Calina > 460 GIG TNT

Roxy King > 230 GIG TNT
Roxy Staff Fire King (x0,5) > 115 GIG TNT
Juvenile Rudeus Aqua Hartia Water (x5) > 115 GIG TNT
Juvenile Rudeus Aqua Hartia Earth & Wind (x3) > 69 GIG TNT
Fitts Magic (>1/7 Youth Rudeus Magic) > 65 GIG TNT
Juvenile Rudeus Aqua Hartia Fire (x2) > 46 GIG TNT
Juvenile Rudeus Magic
Jinas Halfas Magic = Nina

Paul LN12 >= Saint Level = Rudeus Magic Armor MKII = Gino = Funeral Procession = Roxy Staff Water (x2) = Gallus Cleaner = Benebene = Klein Dinoltas = Nuckle = Gard = 23 GIG TNT
The calc for the 23 GIG TNT: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Kepekley23/Mushoku_Tensei:_Rudeus_makes_a_storm

Eris LN6 = ~20 GIG TNT -> Close to Saint
Roxy Magic = 11,5 GIG TNT
Roxy Staff Fire (x0,5) = 5,75 GIG TNT
Class A Monster
Cliff Magic
Paul
7º Year Student Magic

Gyes >= Advanced Level = Eris = Soldat = New Guardian Knight = Conrad Magic = Silphiette Magic = Strong Bandit = Linia Magic = Pursena Magic = Leno Magic = 5º Year Student Magic

Class B Monster = Elinalise
Class C Monster
Class D Monster
Young Man Rudeus
Mirai Old Rudeus
Youth Rudeus
Luke = Linia = Pursena
3º Year Student Magic
Pope´s Assassin

Intermediate Level = Adult Norn = Adult Pax Magic = Pax Magic = Timothy Magic = Roxy Child Magic = Ginger = Therese = Juvenile Rudeus = Regular Swordsman

Infancy Rudeus -> Close to Intermediate
Eris Magic

Beginner Level = Lucie Magic = Elinalise Magic = Ghislaine Magic = Patrice Magic = Aisha Magic

Nokopara
Adult Pax
Geese = Mimir = Timothy
Zenith = Lilia = Jinas Halfas
Pax > Fitts = Nanahoshi
Roxy
Class E Monster
Cliff
Kishirika
Ashia = Norn
Silphiette
Lucie
Roxy Child
Min Paul´s Short Sword

No Level

The changes:

.- Incorpore Gino Sword God as above Gal Farion Sword God
.- Change Technique God to put him at the level of Demon God Laplace
.- Incorpore Dogha as north emperor
.- Incorpore Ogre God as basic God Level
.- Incorpore Kalman III as stronger than Kalman II and Gal Farion (Have better feats) but weaker than Gino
.- Change Rudeus Magic Armor MKI to put him weaker than Kalman III
.- Specify that Fighting God and Dragon God Laplace to be x2 Demon God Laplace
.- Incorpore Rudeus Magic Armor MK0 as stronger than Rudeus Magic Armor MKI but weaker than Fighting God
.- Incorpore Kalman III with the armor of The Fighting God as the strongest character but weaker than Orsted

The new Modifications:

.- Modify Atofe and put her in basic God Level
.- Modify Zanoba and put him in Emperor Level
.- Modify Eris LN15, Nina LN 15, Isolte and Mirai Old Rudeus With Armor and put them above regular Emperor and near to God Level
.- Incorpore Kalman I as stronger than Atofe

Previous Doubts:

.- I don't know where the following characters will be: Bloody Kant, Blaze, Dale, Leno, Gadalf Rangid, Talhand, Shierria, Vierra, Class S- Monster, Sara, Suzanne, Patrice, Elmore, Kleene, Nights Eyes Crow, Goliade, Conrad, Sylvarill, Perugius, Moore, Dragon God Urupen, Necross Lacross, Hero Ars, Argantos and Argantos Summons.

.- I will waiting the aproach we finaly take to add the advanced tier calc

Now please, I would like all to review the entire tier and highlight any inconsistencies or possible improvements that they see possible.

Edit: is anybody even making the profile though?

I've been working on it for a long time, but some unforeseen events irl have delayed me a lot.

 

[Doggo]

Do you guys have a sandbox for the profiles?

 

[Digital_Franz]

Do you guys have a sandbox for the profiles?

3 here.

 

[AlanGoji]

any evidence/arguments for soul manipulation/hax and spatial hax?

advance merry christmas everyone

 

[Betatester0]

any evidence/arguments for soul manipulation/hax and spatial hax?

advance merry christmas everyone

"This time, however, was different. The usual feelings of self-contempt
didn’t rise up. Instead, I experienced a sense of loss, as if I had a gaping hole
in my chest. I looked down to find there was indeed a large opening there.
Ah, I knew it. I really did die…"

Rudeus was in the void world, and he had a hole in his chest from Orsted's blow. and this is the place where souls go after death

we also know that Orsted's curse works specifically on people's souls (it doesn't affect Rudeus who has a soul from another world despite the fact that his body is from the same world as the others). and as Cliff said it is related to the mana his body secretes because the Orsted mana itself is cursed. Which means that the Orsted mana as a whole already has an effect on souls

" “The third one is the best. I tried using the Flac Method on the first one
to transform his mana, but that completely backfired. That means it’s highly
possible that your mana itself carries the curse.”
“His very mana is cursed?” I asked in disbelief.
“Yes,” Cliff said. “The moment Orsted’s—that is, Sir Orsted’s—mana
enters someone’s line of sight, the curse activates. That’s how it seems to me.” "

In addition, there are smaller details that could point to something similar. We know that the relics that Orsted collects are made from fragments of divine jewels, and they are connected to the souls of those who own them (Laplace reincarnates by sending his own soul into the future and Orsted can kill him as a child to get it). and we also see that these are not ordinary physical objects:

"Dragon God-sama took one of the divine jewels and placed it on the child's chest... it sank inside."

and Hitogami (who actually has all the same arguments for this as Orsted) tore the divine jewel from the chest of the first dragon god

 

[Betatester0]

any evidence/arguments for soul manipulation/hax and spatial hax?

advance merry christmas everyone

I don't know if this is really enough, but the only real contradiction I can think of is that how Rudeus looks depends on how he sees himself, so he could see the hole because he thought he died. although we also know that Rudeus' soul always looked the same to Hitogami the entire time he was looking at Rudeus even when he wasn't in the void world:

""No. My eyes see straight to the soul. I knew there was something different between your body and your soul, but this is the first time I've actually seen you " .

And Rudeus himself says that the hole in his chest disappeared before he could even realize anything:

"Before I knew what was happening, the hole in my chest had
disappeared."

We were also never told that his image in that world somehow changed when he lost his arm, for example, so...

 

[Betatester0]

any evidence/arguments for soul manipulation/hax and spatial hax?

advance merry christmas everyone

with spatial manipulation, the only thing I know is this moment:

"But this blow from Dragon God-sama seemed to distort the world.
Everything seemed out of place.
In fact, everything was split in half.
The sky, the clouds, the dragons flying in the distance, the approaching fortress.
Everything cut in half.
What are dragon scales against a god?
What is the point of defenses in a splinter of wood?
The enormous fortress was split in half. The upper half, losing energy, fell towards the sky"


And Orsted must be capable of this because:

"I will bestow upon my son all my techniques, and to him the ability to remain hidden until he can defeat Hitogami..."

 

[AlanGoji]

and the author said that this is a lie.

- If the previous story is true (he was reincarnated about 2000 years ago), then Orus would be about 1900 years old as of the year 330 of the Koryu calendar? Did he cast a secret spell on himself to create the loop?
The 2000-year-old thing is a lie to gain trust.
Time leap is a questionable mysterious magic even in that world, but there are quite a few people who are around 2000 years old.


also what do you think about Orsted's resistance to immortality 4 negation/soul manipulation

i completely forgot about this part. i thought he was sent to the future, and then his time loop starts right after he spawns? if possible, can you clarify the timeline? thank you so much really

 

[Betatester0]

i completely forgot about this part. i thought he was sent to the future, and then his time loop starts right after he spawns? if possible, can you clarify the timeline? thank you so much really

that's right, he was sent to the future around K330 starting with an adult body and starting his loop, he just lied to Rudeus about being 2000 years old as well as the fact that he, like Hitogami, can see the fate of others

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Roxy Migurdia solos every fictional verse

 

[Zabazab]

he just lied to Rudeus about being 2000 years old

Actually this wasn't a lie. Orsted reincarnated as a human's baby 2,000 years ago, but his time loop started 100 years before Rudeus's birth.

 

[Betatester0]

Actually this wasn't a lie. Orsted reincarnated as a human's baby 2,000 years ago, but his time loop started 100 years before Rudeus's birth.

オルステッドってリスタート開始時に転生赤ちゃんだと、呪いで生まれてすぐに親に殺されたり捨てられたりしないんですか? 一彼はちょっと特殊なので、赤ちゃんスタートで

はないようです

If Orsted is reincarnated as a baby at the start of the game, won't he be killed or abandoned by his parents immediately after birth due to a curse?

He's a bit special, so I don't think he starts out as a baby.


Besides, at first Orsted was an amateur and died a lot for various reasons, so if he was reborn as a child or even if he was an adult due to a curse, he would have died in any case 1900 years before the beginning of story

 

[Zabazab]

Use this instead.

以前の話が本当なら（約２０００年前に転生）甲龍暦３３０年の時点でオルスは約１９００歳？自分自身でループする秘術をかけたんでしょうか？

２０００歳云々ってのは、信用してもらうための嘘です。タイムリープはあの世界でも眉唾な謎魔術ですが、２０００歳ぐらいの人はそこそこ居ますので。

 

[AlanGoji]

what do you guys think of this feat: https://www.reddit.com/r/sixfacedworld/s/d0J6cTcKFm

 

[Godslayermeli]

Go support my first MT CRT, I plan to redo the entire verse, similar to how Wavo redid all of Date a Live.
https://www.vsbattles.com/threads/mushuko-tensei-high-tier-ap-ctr.192594/

 

[Godslayermeli]

the highest could be anywhere from high 6A, 5B to low 2C


Edit: is anybody even making the profile though?

Yeah, working on the profiles

 

[Godslayermeli]

I'm working on a speed CRT rn

 

[Zabazab]

A speed CRT would likely require Ghislaine noticing Almanfi's approach (Season 1 Episode 8), Auber reacting to the Sword of Light (Season 3 Episode 1), and Isolde countering the Sword of Light (Season 3 Episode 2) to be calculated.

 

[Zabazab]

3 here.

Made an effort to write some ability justifications. Just going off of memory, so no scans or references atm

• Superhuman Physical Characteristics & Aura (Orsted's Saint Dragon Battle Aura is the greatest in the world, enhancing all of his physical abilities)
• Curse Manipulation & Fear Manipulation (Orsted is cursed to inspire hatred or fear in all living things in his world, save for the dragonfolk and a handful of exceptions. This fear freezes even the most hardened of warriors in place)
• Time Travel & Immortality (Types 1 & 4; A demigod like Orsted will live forever. Due to the secret technique placed upon him by his father, if Orsted dies or otherwise fails to defeat Hitogami by the year 530ADK, he will be returned to the start of a time-loop in the year 330ADK)
• Acausality (Type 4; The secret technique placed on Orsted by his father renders him exempt to certain laws of the world, as a result he is hifden from Hitogami, who can see neither his present nor his future)
• Supernatural Willpower (Having looped a 200-year period so often that he stopped counting after 100 "returns", Orsted's determination to kill Hitogami has become an unfading obsession)
• Fate Manipulation (Orsted possesses an exceptionally powerful fate, allowing him to warp the fates of others through his actions)
• Genius Intelligence
• Extrasensory Perception (Orsted can sense and locate the presence of others even at a distance)
• Power Mimicry (Many of Orsted's techniques were learned through observation, such as casting multiple schools of magic simultaneously in different hands)
• Martial Arts (Orsted has acquired every single technique and skill in the world, making him the strongest martial artist. In particular he mastered the Saint Dragon Battle Aura fighting style which uses the least mana with the greatest power. He can even perform sword techniques, such as Water God Style's Flow and the Sword God Style's Sword of Light, with his bare hands)
• Bodily Weaponry (Enhancing his nails through Battle Aura, Orsted wields his knife-hand strikes as weapons more deadly than most blades)
• Weapon Control (By pressing his palms together and expending a great volume of mana, Orsted can summon the Godblade, the greatest sword innthe world)
• Spatial Manipulation (The Godblade is capable of severing the world itself)
• Master Swordsman (Orsted has achieved God-rank in the Sword God Style, the Water God Style, and the North God Style, making him the greatest swordsman alive)
• Attack Reflection (He has reached God-rank in the Water God Style, which specializes in deflecting attacks while counterstriking. Using the secrer art of Flow, he was able to send Eris flying merely by stopping her sword with his fingers. He deflected both the Magic Armor's punch and a full-power Electric simultaneously)
• Magic & Elemental Manipulation (Orated has reached God-rank in all forms of magic, including the four basic offensive elements of Fire, Water, Wind, and Earth)
• Weather Manipulation (Saint-rank offensive magic allows one to distort the weather)
• Power Nullification (With Disturb Magic, Orsted can forcibly interfere in a spell's formation to render it useless)
• Absorption (With the Wyrmgate spells, Orsted can absorb Battle Aura and mana from people or spells, weakening them)
• Sound Manipulation & Paralysis Inducement (With Howling Magic, Orsted can render opponents immobile for extended periods of time)
• Gravity Manipulation (Orsted can use gravity magic to freely control gravity, which can be used to deadly effect)
• Healing (Low-Mid; Orsted possesses God-rank healing magic, allowing him to effortlessy regrow lost limbs and even restore a destroyed heart)
• Sleep Manipulation (With hypnosis magic, Orsted can render people fast asleep for hours)
• Purification (Type 1; Orsted possesses God-rank detoxification magic, rendering poisons, drugs and illnesses ineffective)
• Summoning (Having reached God-rank in summoning magic, a magic circle drawn by Orsted was capable of summoning Almanfi the Radiant and overwriting his contract with another God-rank summoning magician, Perugius Dola)

 

[Digital_Franz]

Made an effort to write some ability justifications. Just going off of memory, so no scans or references atm

Oh, thank you. I was just about to ask you to write a justification for his acausality because I remember you mentioned having scans already prepared, so I was curious. All right, during the next week I'm going to bother you a little so that you check the justifications on the profiles.

 

[Godslayermeli]

A speed CRT would likely require Ghislaine noticing Almanfi's approach (Season 1 Episode 8), Auber reacting to the Sword of Light (Season 3 Episode 1), and Isolde countering the Sword of Light (Season 3 Episode 2) to be calculated.

We have calcs of the novel versions being approved rn, we could probably get the anime to tho

 

[Zabazab]

Snip

Orsted is also definitely worthy of an extraordinary genius rating too. That justification ain't finished yet, I wrote some other justifications though

Multi-Continent level (Orsted's power is said to surpass that of Demonic Dragon God Laplace, whose out-of-control magic split the supercontinent that would become the Central and Demon Continents, forming the Ringus Sea. Both Hitogami and Orsted believe the latter can kill the former, despite Hitogami having destroyed the Dragon World in a single attack. Stated by the author that an all-out attack from Orsted would cause continents to disappear)

Standard Tactics: Due to his poor mana recovery, Orsted almost never goes all-out, choosing to fight with just his Saint Dragon Battle Aura and martial arts. Only when that fails him will he begin using magic to end a fight quickly. Against swordsmen he will use a style that naturally counters their style, and against magicians he will crush their lungs or use Disturb Magic. If even magic is not enough, Orsted will summon the Godblade to crush his opponent with swordplay. When faced with something new or strange, Orsted will wait and observe his opponent in hopes of learning something new he can utilize or counter "next time".

Weaknesses: As a result of the secret art cast upon Orsted by his father, his mana regeneration rate is roughly 1000 times slower, meaning he cannot use magic freely and he must always hold back. His curse makes him highly isolated, and almost no one would even consider trusting him. Summoning the Godblade consumes around 15% of his total mana, and it can only be wielded for around 10 minutes at a time.

Standard Equipment:

• White Dragon Coat: A coat made from an extinct white dragon's pelt, it provides exceptional physical and magical defense, while also being soft, comfortable, and warm. The coat possesses self-repair capabilities, restoring itself even from shreds.

• Godblade: An extremely simple yet beautiful sword that was wielded by the first Dragon God. Orsted can summon this blade by pressing his hands together, and drawing the sword from his left palm. This weapon is Orsted's trump card, capable of slaying even immortal demons.

 

[Zabazab]

I remember you mentioned having scans already prepared

Yeah that's mainly from volume 15 (confirmed to not be a lie in volume 17)

"No, sorry. The truth is I can't see anything that has to do with the Dragon God. Not the future or the present. I had no idea you were going to run into him."

Oh, so that's it... But why?

"He's got a curse on him that makes me unable to see him." —Volume 6, Chapter 10: "The Wide, Gaping Hole in My Chest"

"As for the second curse, which keeps me hidden from the Man-God's sight... this is no curse at all, in truth."

"What is it, then?"

Orsted paused for a moment to think, then looked me in the eyes once again. "A secret art of sorts, created by the first Dragon God as a tool to use against the Man-God. It enables me to see the flow of destiny, and ensures that certain... laws of the world do not apply to me."

"Hmm..."

"The Man-God possesses great knowledge of the future, and his eyes see far. But they are blind to those outside the world's jurisdiction." —Volume 15, Chapter 12: "The Summons"

"Yes. Do you recall when I explained the secret art created by the first Dragon God? I told you that it enabled me to see the flow of destiny, and exempted me from the laws of this world."

"I remember." He'd described it as a power that let him see the general path of someone's future.

"Half of that explanation was a lie. I can see nothing whatsoever of what lies ahead."

...Hmm. Okay.

"So that means you really are exempt from the laws of this world, right?"

"Indeed. But let me ask you this, Rudeus Greyrat—what do you think that means, precisely?" —Volume 17, Chapter 12: "Ten Days in the Capital and the Truth About Orsted"

 

[Digital_Franz]

Yeah that's mainly from volume 15 (confirmed to not be a lie in volume 17)

Yeah.

Orsted is also definitely worthy of an extraordinary genius rating too. That justification ain't finished yet, I wrote some other justifications though

All right. I have a lot of scans about that justification too.