Muzan vs Makima (16-17-1 [Inconclusive Grace is finished])

[Catbowtie]

The Progenitor of Demons vs Devil of Domination​

Muzan
Attack Potency: Far higher than 5.8 Kilotons; even higher with Transformation; can ignore conventional durability with Biological Deconstruction
Speed: Far higher than Mach 2,201.16618; even higher with Transformation
Lifting Strength: Class 50

Makima
Attack Potency: Varies (Depends on how feared "Conquest" is); Physically upscales from 550 Tons; 5.5 Kilotons with Usage: 1,000 Years; Upscales from 25.63 Kilotons with Telekinesis
Speed: Varies; Mach 81.48 combat speed; Mach 1,390.67 reaction speed; Mach 4,603.11 attack speed with Teleknesis
Lifting Strength: Varies; At least Class M
Durability: Varies; Upscales from 550 Tons​

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Battle Assumptions
Speed Un-equalized
Makima's Resurrection is High-Mid
Makima is given Prior Knowledge: She knows of Muzan's status
Combatants start 4 kilometers away from each other
Muzan is not considered a Japanese citizen of Makima's Japan
Makima has her Swords.
Battle's location takes place in Musutafu, Japan, in the My Hero Academia Universe. The location can be left
Otherwise, Standard Battle Assumptions​

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Combatants	Votes
Muzan	@Catbowtie, @Kavopaco, @Epyriel, @CastoriceTheFifth, @Jaynic1, @LaserPrecision, @Passersby, @Xaropadob3ta, @Apotheosis69, @Robo432343, @AthelChan, @Pedonar, @FantaRin_The_First, @Eden_Warlock99, @Ebihara, @karo_senpaii
Makima	@GunshyFever, @GodEarh206, @Bruh, @Ms.Luzifer, @Epiccheev, @Naito-desu, @Machmatej, @Bruhtelho, @Anonymous_Learner, @Kazuma_kuwabara, @TheRustyOne, @Razor, @MintyBoi1, @Kachon123, @noninho, @Shadowslash125, @ArthurBeyy
Inconclusive	@Arkansalter2

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Woof

bark

guau

dog noises

Makima fra

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Muzan FRA

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

That's not how you spell Makima but I'll count that Makima vote.

 

[Catbowtie]

Doesn't matter because both of them glaze and are suckers for people stronger than them

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Pretty sure mommy just tells him to bark and he does. That's the match.

 

[Catbowtie]

Is that Makima's starting move? It wasn't like that in the Sukuna vs Makima match(es).

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Is that Makima's starting move? It wasn't like that in the Sukuna vs Makima match(es).

This was Sukuna in both matches against Makima

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

What the hell did I just see?

 

[Catbowtie]

Peak

 

[Bruh]

A speed CRT is coming up that would probably gut Makima's reaction speed and with Speed unequalize and High Mid regen, Muzan would stomp with Bio Deconstruct so probably hold off this match for a later time

 

[Catbowtie]

I would’ve just sent a reaction meme and ignored you but thats just mean.

I wouldn’t be so hasty as to call it a Stomp. Makima has a strong list of Hax she can possibly use. I’m not going to argue for the lass, but it’s not like Muzan is wiping the floor with her. I’m not going to stop this match off of a “maybe” CRT that “maybe” reduces her speed. If it matters so much I can equalize speed (genuine)

Anyways, saying Muzan can Stomp Makima is crazyyy

Edit: Re-read the CRT and realized what I said was stupid so I’m just going to ask if speed equalization is valid.

 

[Bruh]

Edit: Re-read the CRT and realized what I said was stupid so I’m just going to ask if speed equalization is valid.

Well im not the expert on CSM/KNY or anything but pretty sure combat speed equalized with the current speed value would mean Makima blitz Muzan with her mind hax since it's based on her reaction and since the distance is 4km, Muzan's Fear aura (his only line of defense against her mind hax) wouldnt be able to reach her before she'll be able to spot him with her Enhanced senses and turn her into her dog

 

[Catbowtie]

I can speed equalize and put them at 20 meters, or I could give Makima the state of mind where she thinks Muzan is legitimately powerful and can challenge her strength.

 

[Bruh]

I can speed equalize and put them at 20 meters, or I could give Makima the state of mind where she thinks Muzan is legitimately powerful and can challenge her strength.

If Muzan's Aura have that much range then the former should be fine. I have never seen added conditions like the latter (usually it's stuff like prior knowledge or bloodlusted) so idk if it's allowable or not.

 

[Catbowtie]

You can modify state of mind in a versus thread. It’s allowed, or at bare minimum I can give Makima prior knowledge ability about his strength.

 

[Razor]

Makima definitely doesn't get stomped here, decon would just get reflected via her PM contract like any other attack in Muzan's arsenal. Anyways using Conquest is a first move for Makima, its literally her main ability as the "Conquest" devil and has used it against pretty much everyone except for Pochita and DD who she can't use it on. There's no reason she wouldn't be able to use it against Muzan as Makima automatically views anybody as inferior to her (Yes, this includes non human characters like devils).

Aside from conquest, Makima's wincons are:
-BFR Muzan to hell
-Death manipulation via Angel
-All of her other controlled abilities

If Makima doesn't decide to just control Muzan from the start she can just travel away from the battlefield and use her puppets to fight Muzan. She'd be able to see how the fight plays out too

I can speed equalize and put them at 20 meters, or I could give Makima the state of mind where she thinks Muzan is legitimately powerful and can challenge her strength.

Makima sensing Muzan's aura wouldn't mean her conquest ability doesn't work. Makima already resists fear aura so she might not even sense anything in the first place, even if she did there isn't anything saying that having fear aura disqualifies you from the list of creatures which Makima views as inferior which has no defined meaning anyway, except for the fact that she considers seemingly anyone was inferior to her. The only except is Pochita (who is adored by Makima because of many specific reasons that aren't relevant here) and the darkness devil, who we don't know why Makima can't control.

You can't do that, you're essentially restricting her conquest ability, you can't restrict abilities that doesn't give a higher tier.

 

[Catbowtie]

You can't do that, you're essentially restricting her conquest ability, you can't restrict abilities that doesn't give a higher tier.

That's not restricting Conquest at all, it just means she would need to beat the **** out of Muzan before hitting him with Conquest. Makima would be choosing by herself to not use Conquest, not that some Tier 0 entity called Versus Battles is outright preventing her from doing it.

Makima sensing Muzan's aura wouldn't mean her conquest ability doesn't work. Makima already resists fear aura so she might not even sense anything in the first place, even if she did there isn't anything saying that having fear aura disqualifies you from the list of creatures which Makima views as inferior which has no defined meaning anyway, except for the fact that she considers seemingly anyone was inferior to her.

Muzan's Fear aura affected Akaza, who has fear resistance. Makima's getting fear haxed

• Battle Spirit, Limited Fear Manipulation & Paralysis Inducement (Overwhelming Aura that causes the opponent fear and paralysis with them feeling the air getting heavier, and can even cause internal bleeding and external lacerations, Overwhelmed Akaza with his aura)

I don't think Makima so far up her own *** that she's going to think Muzan is objectively inferior to her after she got fear haxed by him. Makima's perception is (obviously) going to be based on how Muzan acts in the fight, considering she has no information on who Muzan is and SBA says he's vaguely dangerous.

 

[Bruh]

decon would just get reflected via her PM contract like any other attack in Muzan's arsenal.

As per the condition set up by the OP, Makima's Damage Transferal and Resurrection is only High-Mid meanwhile Muzan's Decon can turn you into liquid sludge which need Low-High to recover from. And much like Power's blood chainsaw, his blood will stay in her body to damage her

 

[Razor]

That's not restricting Conquest at all, it just means she would need to beat the **** out of Muzan before hitting him with Conquest. Makima would be choosing by herself to not use Conquest, not that some Tier 0 entity called Versus Battles is outright preventing her from doing it.

Muzan's Fear aura affected Akaza, who has fear resistance. Makima's getting fear haxed

I don't think Makima so far up her own *** that she's going to think Muzan is objectively inferior to her after she got fear haxed by him. Makima's perception is (obviously) going to be based on how Muzan acts in the fight, considering she has no information on who Muzan is and SBA says he's vaguely dangerous.

It is, if its not restricting its altering how she uses one of if not her main abilities. You can't do that. You can't also say "Muzan wouldn't use biological deconstruction on Makima" for the same reason.

Akaza's resistance is specifically noted to only work on lesser beings than himself. It's just how demon slayer aura works, the stronger you are the stronger your aura is. It's not layered fear hax.

She is, she literally sees anything, by default, as inferior. That's why devils she didn't KNOW existed were under her control as stated in her profile. Like she hasn't even met them yet and they're already affected by her ability because Makima automatically thinks they are inferior.

 

[Razor]

As per the condition set up by the OP, Makima's Damage Transferal and Resurrection is only High-Mid meanwhile Muzan's Decon can turn you into liquid sludge which need Low-High to recover from. And much like Power's blood chainsaw, his blood will stay in her body to damage her

Oh, didn't see Makima's resurrection got limited. Ig thats a wincon, tho he hardly ever used it. Why didn't he do this against the other demon slayers again?

 

[Bruh]

Oh, didn't see Makima's resurrection got limited. Ig thats a wincon, tho he hardly ever used it. Why didn't he do this against the other demon slayers again?

Because iirc all the top tier Slayer resisted Biological Manipulation and even then Tanjiro got F up once Muzan got one good hit in. There's also his Absorbtion and Possesion as possible wincons

 

[Bruh]

@Catbowtie you should specify whether Makima has access to her Possible Contracts or not

 

[Razor]

Because iirc all the top tier Slayer resisted Biological Manipulation and even then Tanjiro got F up once Muzan got one good hit in. There's also his Absorbtion and Possesion as possible wincons

Oh yeah, they can control their bloodflow.

 

[Ruby_R_Dracula]

@Catbowtie you should specify whether Makima has access to her Possible Contracts or not

if your talking about the controlled devils and such
they're standard equipment

 

[Razor]

Decon's a valid wincon for Muzan, so ig it isn't a stomp. But Makima more often than not starts with conquest. I'm voting Makima via conquest.

 

[Bruh]

if your talking about the controlled devils and such
they're standard equipment

Im talking about Devils that she never used like Cosmo and Eternity which is only listed as possible and use wordings like "may possess" so it's not concrete

 

[Catbowtie]

It is, if its not restricting its altering how she uses one of if not her main abilities. You can't do that. You can't also say "Muzan wouldn't use biological deconstruction on Makima" for the same reason.

Okay, how I am stopping Makima from using Control on Muzan? I'm going to assume you'll say along the lines of "Because you're changing her State of Mind to prevent her from doing it," which no, Makima can still use Control when she can simply beat the **** out of Muzan and then change her state of mind about it. It isn't like I'm permanently Mind Manipulating Makima, it just that she starts with thinking Muzan is legitimately dangerous.

Akaza's resistance is specifically noted to only work on lesser beings than himself. It's just how demon slayer aura works, the stronger you are the stronger your aura is. It's not layered fear hax.

"Lesser beings" (they're talking about the lower moons) that still can fear hax people like Start of Series Tanjiro who has resistance to said ability. And yes, it still is layered fear Hax. But whatever the classification for it is, it still stands that Muzan's fear hax can affect people to resist other fear hax.

She is, she literally sees anything, by default, as inferior. That's why devils she didn't KNOW existed were under her control as stated in her profile. Like she hasn't even met them yet and they're already affected by her ability because Makima automatically thinks they are inferior.

The dead devils? Are you referring to the ones who are corpses laying in the ground? Of course Makima would think she's superior to a literal corpse. Is there any person out there that she doesn't know about (like, at all, as in a literal blank in her knowledge) that she immediately Controlled after seeing? Hell, Makima might not even bother to Control Muzan if she doesn't think he's all that.

if your talking about the controlled devils and such
they're standard equipment

They're talking about Possibly contracts. I really need to give Muzan access to the Kizuki as standard equipment

Decon's a valid wincon for Muzan, so ig it isn't a stomp. But Makima more often than not starts with conquest. I'm voting Makima via conquest.

Woah hold your horses there partner. I'm still changing the battle scenario so it isn't a mismatch.

 

[Catbowtie]

Gushy, I see you're lurking in the fight, should I post-pone or equalize speed and put them 20 meters apart? Or should I continue with the fight?

 

[GunshyFever]

A speed CRT is coming up that would probably gut Makima's reaction speed

I did claim that this would happen, but looking at Makima's scene with the Darkness Devil, this might not be the case. I'm not going to speak much on it because it's derailing the thread, but there's a chance this won't be happening at all.

and the darkness devil, who we don't know why Makima can't control.

Makima doesn't control him because she's aware of his status as a Primal Devil. To summarize, her profile states: "Against opponents she cannot or does not choose to immediately control until she proves herself capable of properly defeating them, Makima generally prefers to stay in the shadows while manipulating or controlling others to fight on her behalf." This applies to the Darkness Devil.

Anyway, Conquest is still applicable here and Muzan doesn’t have anything that would catch Makima’s eye or make her feel uncertain about him being inferior to her. This means Conquest would be viable in this scenario. Makima has far more abilities at her disposal, but we don’t need to delve further since we already have something solid enough to prevent the fight from dragging out. Voting Makima here.

 

[Catbowtie]

I did claim that this would happen, but looking at Makima's scene with the Darkness Devil, this might not be the case. I'm not going to speak much on it because it's derailing the thread, but there's a chance this won't be happening at all.

This is actually important to the thread because votes may be invalidated because of the changed battle circumstances.

 

[GunshyFever]

Gushy, I see you're lurking in the fight, should I post-pone or equalize speed and put them 20 meters apart? Or should I continue with the fight?

It doesn’t matter what he does, where he is or how fast they are, even at equal speed, you're making it unfair because Makima’s reactions would still be around 17 times faster than Muzan’s and her attack speed would be even greater. The distance doesn’t really help him either, solely because of Conquest, which makes that advantage practically meaningless. If you want the match to be interesting, I suggest giving Makima prior knowledge of Muzan so that she's forced to actually defeat him by utilizing her abilities.

 

[Catbowtie]

I suggest giving Makima prior knowledge of Muzan so that she's forced to actually defeat him by utilizing her abilities

What should I put down in the TS?

 

[GunshyFever]

This is actually important to the thread because votes may be invalidated because of the changed battle circumstances.

If that's the case, I'm not sure what to say just yet. It's best to work with the values we have now, as future values could end up being either higher or lower.

 

[Razor]

Okay, how I am stopping Makima from using Control on Muzan? I'm going to assume you'll say along the lines of "Because you're changing her State of Mind to prevent her from doing it," which no, Makima can still use Control when she can simply beat the **** out of Muzan and then change her state of mind about it. It isn't like I'm permanently Mind Manipulating Makima, it just that she starts with thinking Muzan is legitimately dangerous.

"Lesser beings" (they're talking about the lower moons) that still can fear hax people like Start of Series Tanjiro who has resistance to said ability. And yes, it still is layered fear Hax. But whatever the classification for it is, it still stands that Muzan's fear hax can affect people to resist other fear hax.

The dead devils? Are you referring to the ones who are corpses laying in the ground? Of course Makima would think she's superior to a literal corpse. Is there any person out there that she doesn't know about (like, at all, as in a literal blank in her knowledge) that she immediately Controlled after seeing? Hell, Makima might not even bother to Control Muzan if she doesn't think he's all that.

They're talking about Possibly contracts. I really need to give Muzan access to the Kizuki as standard equipment

Woah hold your horses there partner. I'm still changing the battle scenario so it isn't a mismatch.

You're still altering the manner in which she uses the ability normally, you can't do that. Just as you can't change a character's state of mind for a specific move (Character A won't use this move right away, Character B is open to use this move even if it isn't IC" etc. I mean the rules aren't concrete so you could ask in a questions thread but I'm like 99% sure you can't alter a character's state of mind that way. You can alter how they look at their opponent (Willingness to kill for example), but anything past that is basically restricting or limiting abilities. Plus like I said even if she thinks Muzan is dangerous that doesn't mean conquest doesn't work. You'd have to literally change her viewpoint and opinions, taking her out of character just so she wouldn't or couldn't use conquest from the start.

To Akaza yes they are lesser beings. Like I said DS aura is scaled off of strength, so characters stronger than another will be effected by their aura. Akaza resists the lesser beings via being stronger than them and Muzan bypasses Akaza's resistance by being stronger than him.

Yes, the ones Makima never even met. To think yourself superior to a being who you have very little details of is a sign of a huge ego, I think. And like I said, no one has ever been out of limits for Makima's control, except for very special cases. Via SBA she already knows Muzan can cause her harm if she lets him live. So conquest will be her safest bet. Its thought based and its her main ability.

 

[Catbowtie]

If that's the case, I'm not sure what to say just yet. It's best to work with the values we have now, as future values could end up being either higher or lower.

Gotcha

Gushy I imagine you look just like Choso. Just wanted to tell you that.

 

[GunshyFever]

What should I put down in the TS?

"Makima is given prior knowledge of Muzan’s status"

Gushy I imagine you look just like Choso. Just wanted to tell you that.

Haha, I wish, maybe if I had the hair

 

[Razor]

Makima doesn't control him because she's aware of his status as a Primal Devil. To summarize, her profile states: "Against opponents she cannot or does not choose to immediately control until she proves herself capable of properly defeating them, Makima generally prefers to stay in the shadows while manipulating or controlling others to fight on her behalf." This applies to the Darkness Devil.

Yes, that's the most likely reason. Which is why I believe even if Makima knew Muzan was stronger in some way to her, Conquest would still work. Besides Makima already scales off of Nayuta's abilities via the profiles, and Nayuta could control Yoru. Iirc Nayuta has like no combat feats or abilities to show she is capable of defeating Yoru on her own, yet she was still capable of controlling her.

 

[Ruby_R_Dracula]

Haha, I wish, maybe if I had the hair

I keep forgetting your pfp is a jjk dude, and not some random anime person

 

[GunshyFever]

Yes, that's the most likely reason. Which is why I believe even if Makima knew Muzan was stronger in some way to her, Conquest would still work. Besides Makima already scales off of Nayuta's abilities via the profiles, and Nayuta could control Yoru. Iirc Nayuta has like no combat feats or abilities to show she is capable of defeating Yoru on her own, yet she was still capable of controlling her.

She wouldn’t choose to use Conquest immediately if she’s aware of his status. This would be similar to, say, the Darkness Devil vs Makima, the Gun Devil vs Makima or even her encounter with Quanxi. But yeah, I get what you mean, but what your implying is specifically for devils with low or no status.

As for the layered mind hax, it’s currently under discussion, but if you want to strengthen the arguments for it, go ahead, here’s the thread.