Nasuverse Roa Root Level Social Influencing

[HyperZero95]

that's his reality marble, not the Root (from Melty Blood Archives page 67)

Thanks for the scan. However, I don't think this changes the primary point. Overload is what he created in the background. The black mass and the hole above still would have nothing to do with that, and neither does the title of the move itself. We know that Overload's function is to amp Roa's lightning strikes, so it doesn't really match up with what he actually does during the animation, with the actual name of the move being a reference to his reincarnation and Akasha (It is describe as Hollow sometimes), instead of being simply titled "Overload". I guess that means he may require his Reality Marble to open the portal.

from what I recall, this is from either Hisui's or Ciel's route. Roa doesn't appear in Kagetsu Tohya outside of the Ten Nights of Dream.

Yeah, my bad. It should be from the Far Side routes. However that doesn't really change the overall point. And yeah, I include Ten Nights of Dream when I refer to TK.

 

[Mageman460]

I did some discussing with other people, and we really think Roa saying his stuff about "Journeying through nothingness" is probably just flowery language. However, there are a few things worth noting.

A) The instant Roa's body is destroyed, he reincarnates into the body he chose as his next body, according to Ciel.

Spoiler: Image 1

B) Roa is indeed still considered a magus who is trying to reach True Magic. Which he would have if he did actually reach the Root. I'm trying to find the actual scan of the below atm, please bear with me.

Spoiler: Image 2

C) The Araya Souren stuff has a lot of explanations. First of all it could be seen as a flat out difference in interpretation of what death is between the two of them. Second, Souren actually does not die. Unlike a puppet master, Souren actually transfers his consciousness before bodily death.

D) @CRIMPSUMPSKI2 has a bunch of scans about how Roa doesn't actually even really understand death. Hence why his Mystic Eyes aren't Death Perception. The manga even makes it very clear that Roa does not see death because he does not understand it.

E) How about not using the name of an attack for the basis of why someone should scale to the apex of the verse? Also, if he truly could just instantly open a path to the Root with a Reality Marble any time he wanted, that makes him outright stronger than every other character in the series, sans like Void Shiki. Not to mention that actively goes against lore as once a path to the Root has been used it can not be used again.

 

[KingNanaya]

B) Roa is indeed still considered a magus who is trying to reach True Magic. Which he would have if he did actually reach the Root.

no one said he wasn't. we just said that his main goal is living forever. which, again, is brought up in both versions of tsukihime.

I did some discussing with other people, and we really think Roa saying his stuff about "Journeying through nothingness" is probably just flowery language.

I feel like dismissing something that actually has merit as a counter argument as "flowery language" ain't the best thing to do. especially if you aren't going to say what those reasons are inside the actual CRT where people are debating

 

[Mageman460]

no one said he wasn't. we just said that his main goal is living forever. which, again, is brought up in both versions of tsukihime.

He specifically is a mage. Which means by definition he aspires to reach the Root. This is the very definition of what a mage is.

I feel like dismissing something that actually has merit as a counter argument as "flowery language" ain't the best thing to do. especially if you aren't going to say what those reasons are inside the actual CRT where people are debating

The reasons are simple. Roa is noted to not understand death by Shiki. Roa is also, by Ciel one of his previous reincarnations, that his method of reincarnation is akin to radio transmission and not going through Akasha. Saying I'm "just dismissing" is wrong. Especially when it makes far more sense that his soul is unique in that it can be transmitted. Death being "Nothing" is also just a common thing said even in real life, let alone other fictional media. So the "Nothing" he is journeying from is likely not [].

 

[KingNanaya]

Roa is noted to not understand death by Shiki.

doesn't change the fact that he did, indeed, die. a lot. which he said he did.

Roa is also, by Ciel one of his previous reincarnations, that his method of reincarnation is akin to radio transmission and not going through Akasha.

I didn't say he used Akasha. I just said that you justifying your point using "flowery language" is something I find stupid. I agree with the thread, the 1-A scaling for Roa's soul should be removed. but saying it's flowery language because he said that he died and saw nothingness is stupid, when there are other arguments that work better than just "flowery language"

So the "Nothing" he is journeying from is likely not [].

I didn't say it was. Let me be very clear. I'm not saying Roa uses the Root in any way to reincarnate. I'm not claiming that the "Nothingness" Roa refers to is the Root in any form. I agree with the premise of the thread. I think saying that "nothingness" is flowery language, or that Roa prioritizes the Root over Immortality when he has stated otherwise are stupid arguments that fall flat when you look at what the character has said.

 

[HyperZero95]

I did some discussing with other people, and we really think Roa saying his stuff about "Journeying through nothingness" is probably just flowery language.

It's unreasonable to dismiss it as flowerly language when those are the common terms used to describe Akasha. What exactly makes Roa's statements any less concrete than those of any characters that have described the Root as "nothingness" or "darkness"? Ryougi described the Root in the same way after her incident. If Roa uses the same terms universally used to describe the Root, in the same context as the Shikis (A near death experience), then there is really no reason to doubt him, especially due to the lack of some type of severe contradiction to it.

A) The instant Roa's body is destroyed, he reincarnates into the body he chose as his next body, according to Ciel.

I mean, yes? Almost like that would happen when you cycle in and out of an abstract nothingness beyond time and space. Even the Shikis could directly see Akasha during their near death experiences. They didn't even actually die, yet they could blatantly access Akasha mentally. This proves that no matter what, the instant you die your soul goes to Akasha, even if you come back afterwards. I struggle to see how it would be any different for Roa really.

B) Roa is indeed still considered a magus who is trying to reach True Magic. Which he would have if he did actually reach the Root. I'm trying to find the actual scan of the below atm, please bear with me.

He tried to reach True Magic to live forever. He doesn't care about learning about the Root beyond that.

C Second, Souren actually does not die. Unlike a puppet master, Souren actually transfers his consciousness before bodily death.

He does not transfer his consciousness before death, but right as he dies, as seen when Shiki kills him in their first fight, and later at the end when he converses with Touko right until his body completely fades away. And Touko stated that Araya will still come back eventually, but it would take centuries due to him having no spare bodies. With that being said, fair enough on the different interpretations of Death. I won't press for that.

D) @CRIMPSUMPSKI2 has a bunch of scans about how Roa doesn't actually even really understand death. Hence why his Mystic Eyes aren't Death Perception. The manga even makes it very clear that Roa does not see death because he does not understand it.

That doesn't really mean much. Roa can easily cycle through the Root and still fail to properly grasp what Death is, in the same way Aoko using the Fifth to access Akasha was still unable to tell Touko what exactly the true nature of the Fifth Magic is. In addition, we know that Shiki's capacity to see Death is something exclusive for him and him alone, with his near death experience being merely the trigger for it. So it could even simply be Roa lacking the predisposition towards Death Perception, in the same way no one else has the level of Akashic connection Void does unless they are also born with the Origin of Emptiness like her.

E) How about not using the name of an attack for the basis of why someone should scale to the apex of the verse?

Dude what? Of course I'm using canonical names and the implications that they give. Especially when they are the names of actual moves the characters use and gives further context to what they do. I did not write those names. If you have a problem with that, you simply need to show why that interpretation is not plausible.
The name is a reference to his reincarnation method and it also describes it as "hollow" curse. With hollow often being used to describe the Root. We know Roa is known as the serpent of AKASHA, we know that even NEAR death experiences that aren't permanent can allow someone to access the Root until they come back, and we know that Overload's effect is to automatically apply spell amps to Roa's lightning magecraft attacks, meaning it can't have anything to do with the title and what Roa actually does in his animation. All of this suggests that yes, Roa creates Overload during this Last Arc. But it doesn't seem to be the Last Arc's main point, as Roa does NOT actually use his RM for what it was intended to do, and rather does the whole thing of summoning the black mass and open that portal, which does actually fit with the name of the Last Arc, and with the information we have about his reincarnation. So seeing the attack as Roa using his RM to summon a portal for Akasha does have merit. What else would that hole be? Why is the attack not named "Reality Marble Overload" or something, and why does not Roa uses amped lightning spells when it is active? Why would his reincarnation method, aka the only thing about Roa that has strong ties with Akasha (Which coincidentially is what seems to be referenced by the "hollow curse" part) be mentioned? Unless there is an alternative interpretation, there is no reason to reject this take of his Last Arc.

Also, if he truly could just instantly open a path to the Root with a Reality Marble any time he wanted, that makes him outright stronger than every other character in the series, sans like Void Shiki.

Not really. Several characters control aspects of the Root. That's what True Magic is. It was stated that Alaya would literally summon a Counter Guardian FROM the Root to face Araya in KnK. Accessing the Root doesn't mean you have control over all of it.

Not to mention that actively goes against lore as once a path to the Root has been used it can not be used again.

That's because people force it closed once someone obtains a certain path that gives them certain powers. By that logic, True Magic users can never activate their True Magic again because the path is somehow closed even to themselves who already opened it and siezed it.

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

It's unreasonable to dismiss it as flowerly language when those are the common terms used to describe Akasha. What exactly makes Roa's statements any less concrete than those of any characters that have described the Root as "nothingness" or "darkness"? Ryougi described the Root in the same way after her incident. If Roa uses the same terms universally used to describe the Root, in the same context as the Shikis (A near death experience), then there is really no reason to doubt him, especially due to the lack of some type of severe contradiction to it.

Nothingness has also been used to describe things akin to the flow state, which even Shirou has achieved in his Archery, yet I'm not going to sit here and equivocate the uses to upgrade Shirou to 1-A.

As we'll see later in this reply, all your arguments have been poorly stringed together statements that can barely account for supplementary evidence, much less primary evidence, with the nonexistence of the latter being what prompted this thread to be made.

I mean, yes? Almost like that would happen when you cycle in and out of an abstract nothingness beyond time and space. Even the Shikis could directly see Akasha during their near death experiences. They didn't even actually die, yet they could blatantly access Akasha mentally. This proves that no matter what, the instant you die your soul goes to Akasha, even if you come back afterwards. I struggle to see how it would be any different for Roa really.

The difference in Roa is that where the soul dies along with the body normally, he can turn it into something that can be transmitted, and then transmits it from one body to the next. There's no notion of him resisting the Outerversal evaporation of the Root first.

He tried to reach True Magic to live forever. He doesn't care about learning about the Root beyond that.

if having a pathway to the Root allows you to achieve True Magic and Roa can supposedly create a so-called pathway to the Root on demand, do you not see how this is a problem?

That doesn't really mean much. Roa can easily cycle through the Root and still fail to properly grasp what Death is, in the same way Aoko using the Fifth to access Akasha was still unable to tell Touko what exactly the true nature of the Fifth Magic is. In addition, we know that Shiki's capacity to see Death is something exclusive for him and him alone, with his near death experience being merely the trigger for it. So it could even simply be Roa lacking the predisposition towards Death Perception, in the same way no one else has the level of Akashic connection Void does unless they are also born with the Origin of Emptiness like her.

You can't just use a scan of Roa explaining what death is for your argument and then agree that he doesn't understand death immediately after lol. A vague reference to "darkness" doesn't unequivocally prove your point, and unequivocalness is what we need for something that can easily introduce problems like scaling random unicorn horns to the apex of the verse.

Spamming things that can be interpreted as supporting evidence in no way accounts for the severe lack of primary evidence.

we know that Shiki's capacity to see Death is something exclusive for him and him alone

No we don't, prove that. KnK and Tsukihime were considered to be a part of the same timeline until like 2015, and never once has "well MEoDP is inherent to only one person" been used as a justification against it.

Of course I'm using canonical names and the implications that they give. Especially when they are the names of actual moves the characters use and gives further context to what they do. I did not write those names.

So are we going to be scaling Kouma's Last Arc to Enma because it's called "Enma's Punishment"???

The name is a reference to his reincarnation method

Which you have yet to justify as involving the Root beyond vague references and "muh Serpent of Akasha"

With hollow often being used to describe the Root.

It can also like, not. Each time it has it's been in context that you've yet to solidly justify.

and we know that Overload's effect is to automatically apply spell amps to Roa's lightning magecraft attacks

This is the statement:

Overload: Launched when his remaining life is 100. "Square" is cast on all of his sorcery. ---And this other sorcery, "Square" doubles his power of his sorcery, making it equal strength as the EX moves.

~ Type-Moon Fourth Character Poll

Now here's a statement for UBW:

Once Archer unleashes his Noble Phantasm, a reality marble will be created, greatly enhancing his Projection ability.

~ Fate/EXTRA

Does this mean we should conclude that UBW's only effect is enhancing his Projection magecraft? Or are we to refer to other places that talk about his Reality Marble? Clearly it's the latter, and this can be dismissed as an Argument from Silence.

We know Roa is known as the serpent of AKASHA

We get a description of what "Serpent of Akasha" means twice (Arcueid's route and MBAC's PS2 manual), and neither time are we told what the "Akasha" part actually means. Once again, a case of something that could be supporting evidence, but with no primary evidence in sight.

So seeing the attack as Roa using his RM to summon a portal for Akasha does have merit.

If he's using his RM to create a portal, then this directly goes against your claim of it only having to do with his lightning spells.

What else would that hole be?

A part of his Reality Marble or some other attack related to it maybe, as MB Archives implies by saying he creates his Reality Marble with absolutely no reference to any pathway to the Root. (inb4 a falsely applied 'argument from silence' gets thrown back at me)

What else would that hole be? Why is the attack not named "Reality Marble Overload" or something, and why does not Roa uses amped lightning spells when it is active? Why would his reincarnation method, aka the only thing about Roa that has strong ties with Akasha (Which coincidentially is what seems to be referenced by the "hollow curse" part) be mentioned? Unless there is an alternative interpretation, there is no reason to reject this take of his Last Arc.

It could in some way be related to the magecraft he used to preserve and transfer aspects of his soul, maybe. Or it could be that the name doesn't even mean much as Kouma's Last Arc shows, as well as Ciel's Another Arc Drive being called "Redemption from Original Sin" despite the Seventh Holy Scripture having literally nothing to do with the doctrine. Your "explanation" isn't supported by anything beyond vague connections in the name of the move. It's not even an explanation at all, it's headcanon.


Thus far you've failed to show any actual evidence of Roa's soul passing through the Root and having Outerversal durability because of it, instead appealing to vague connections, fallacious reasoning, and straight-up headcanon. Further, Roa's soul being Outerversal leads to insane absurdities like the Seventh Holy Scripture, something created from a random unicorn horn, being stronger than the literal Root of all of creation which can't even be properly described in any way shape or form.

 

[HyperZero95]

Nothingness has also been used to describe things akin to the flow state, which even Shirou has achieved in his Archery, yet I'm not going to sit here and equivocate the uses to upgrade Shirou to 1-A.

So, let me get this straight:

Shirou used nothingness to describe the flow of state in archery.

Roa uses nothingness, alongside darkness and death, on top of the imagery of him "journeying", to describe his experience after his bodily death.

Now I don't know how you see it. But I think that anyone with a IQ above 5 can infer that Roa's nothigness and darkness is used in the context of Akasha, since he is literally referring to him dying and then coming back again. Words are used differently depending on the context. And here we find nothingness and darkness (Terms used to describe Akasha) all together describing what happens to someone's soul after bodily death. So it is obvious beyond any reasonable doubts to take it for granted that they are describing Akasha. What the heck would archery/martial arts crap have anything to do with Roa? This is such an incredibly desperate deflection it's sad.

As we'll see later in this reply, all your arguments have been poorly stringed together statements that can barely account for supplementary evidence, much less primary evidence, with the nonexistence of the latter being what prompted this thread to be made.

Of course they are going to appear like that if you handwave their meaning to fit with your narrative about Roa somehow not cycling through Akasha despite even people in coma that didn't even die being able to do that.

The hilarious thing about all of this is that there is nothing to "prove" in the first place, because it's a fact that a soul goes straight to Akasha upon death normally. Why does the OP want evidence for something that is already universally established in the verse and is taken for granted?

The only "evidence" for Roa being a tiny special snowflake ever brought up in the entire thread is Ciel saying that Roa's soul is transmitted, that it is processed instead of outright dispersing and immediately goes upon the next host after his body's death....Which does not preclude his soul from cycling in and out of Akasha when that happens.

Like Roa dies? His soul instantly access Akasha due to not having a body to anchor it to the material world anymore, however instead of dispersing into nothingness and being absorbed by Akasha entirely, he is transmitted into his next host cycling out of Akasha. In the same exact way the Shikis accessed Akasha after their incidents and then came back anyway after they recovered. There is literally nothing so complicated about this. This thread is complaining over a whole bunch of nothing really.

The difference in Roa is that where the soul dies along with the body normally, he can turn it into something that can be transmitted, and then transmits it from one body to the next. There's no notion of him resisting the Outerversal evaporation of the Root first.

This is literally what I have been saying this whole time. His soul does not evaporate and "dies" alongside the body, it is cycled through Akasha and transmitted into the next host. The soul requires a body to be anchored to the material world, so when it dies, it instantly goes to Akasha normally to be absorbed back into it. However, Roa turned his soul into something that can be transmitted. Meaning his soul cycles out of Akasha and goes to the next host upon death instead of being dispersed and absorbed. He does not magically travels the Earth, because souls cannot be anchored in the material world without a body. This is why souls without a body access Akasha rather than randomly propagating in the air, as said by Ciel in the very quote you posted. Again, it is no different from the example of the Shikis accident. There is no mention of him avoiding the Root's passive evaporation because it's self evident that he did, by virtue of his soul not dispersing in the first place. There is a reason the materialisation of the soul is a True Magic. It's not something normally possible. When someone dies, his soul goes to Akasha because it needs a body to be anchored to the material world, and is then absorbed back into the Root. Roa managed to prevent this dispersion and transfer his soul into his hosts, but he still needs to cycle in and out of Akasha for that, because he access it as soon as his body dies.

if having a pathway to the Root allows you to achieve True Magic and Roa can supposedly create a so-called pathway to the Root on demand, do you not see how this is a problem?

He can have a pathway to the Root that does not grant him True Magic. Or he could lack the necessary knowledge, or even require an innate trait to wield it just like with Death Perception ironically. There is no problem here.

You can't just use a scan of Roa explaining what death is for your argument and then agree that he doesn't understand death immediately after lol. A vague reference to "darkness" doesn't unequivocally prove your point

Roa not having the innate capacity to fully comprehend and wield death like a MEODP user =/= Roa not knowing what Death is in the first place, which is something even random normal humans would know. You have absolutely no counter to Roa still cycling through Akasha and still not being able to grasp its true meaning. Aoko could not tell the true nature of the Fifth despite her using it to access Akasha. If I ask someone to travel into an alien reality and he is unable to understand what he saw due to lacking the necessary capacity/knowledge, that does not change the fact that he still traveled to said reality. This case is even more specific as Roa needs to have an Origin that innately grants him affinity for Death Perception.

and unequivocalness is what we need for something that can easily introduce problems like scaling random unicorn horns to the apex of the verse.

There is no problem with a conceptual weapon that was made from the horn of a creature that consumed souls being able to affect souls indeed and disperse them into nothingness. There is no problem with Roa's soul being able to circumvent the Root's passive absorption either. Many characters already scale to the Root to different extents. Crimson Moon could even affect the very cycle of death and rebirth of Akasha according to Wallachia. There is nothing so special or terrific about it. The reason Void's connection is on an entirely different level and actually qualifies as the "apex" of the verse, is because she has access to most of Akasha and its functions, rather than simply individual aspects like the other characters.

Spamming things that can be interpreted as supporting evidence in no way accounts for the severe lack of primary evidence.

Secondary evidence can be used in lack of "primary" evidence. Actually, if that's the only type of evidence that we have, then it may well be primary to begin with. At least it is better than no evidence at all. Because I'd like to remind you that the burden is actually on the OP to prove that Roa is the only person in the entire franchise whose soul magically skips the Root upon death without any special circumstances. In fact, how is that any better actually? Because if Roa can just skip the Root then it means that he can outright negate it entirely and prevent it from taking his soul at all. That's even worse lol.

No we don't, prove that. KnK and Tsukihime were considered to be a part of the same timeline until like 2015, and never once has "well MEoDP is inherent to only one person" been used as a justification against it.

Ah here it is. I was expecting you to pick unnecessary fights out of thin air on something I wrote in a half hurry. With "exclusive to him" I was more referring to individuals like him who innately have the ability to see Death. This includes Ryougi as well. But she has affinity towards death for different reasons, and her capacity to see the Death is only one of her body's many powers, as her Origin is Emptiness and therefore has access to most of Akasha and its powers. We know that Shiki's MEODP is an innate ability, and that his near death experience was merely its trigger. If Roa does not have such innate affinity towards Death, then he will never be able to grasp its true essence and wield Death Perception, no matter how many times he cycles through Akasha. That is all I said. Again, Roa not fully grasping Death and not having the innate, exclusive (Exclusive because it is tied to one's Origin) ability to perceive and actualize it, does not preclude him from cycling in and out the Root.

So are we going to be scaling Kouma's Last Arc to Enma because it's called "Enma's Punishment"???

No? It would simply means that it is related to Enma in some way, shape or form. And Kishima's Last Arc is a conventional raw power attack with no additional context or evidence that it is anything further than that. Far different from Roa, who opens a portal towards something and is related to his reincarnation method as well as Akasha. Had he simply shooted out big lightning beams like his RM is supposed to do, I would have never suggested this even in spite of the move's title. But him opening a hole, and us knowing that is reincarnation method is related to Akasha and allows him to cycle in and out of it does give the idea of it being a portal to Akasha very strong credence.

Also, funny, because Enma is the King of the Underworld. And Kishima was actually noted in Red Demon God to be a master of Death that innately wielded it, making him far superior to someone like Kiri Nanaya, who only chased after Death. It then added that only someone that was born broken and also has Death in him would be able to match him, which is a clear reference to Shiki. So even in his case there are some dots to connect.

Which you have yet to justify as involving the Root beyond vague references and "muh Serpent of Akasha"

Ah, my mistake. A dude known as the serpent of Akasha, who has learned to prevent his soul from being dispersed and absorbed by it, has clearly absolutely nothing to do with it.

...Imagine asking to justify the existence of a door that you can clearly see is right in front of you.

It can also like, not. Each time it has it's been in context that you've yet to solidly justify.

I already did, my friend. The problem is that you decided to dismiss it as "flowery language", and what can I do about that?

Does this mean we should conclude that UBW's only effect is enhancing his Projection magecraft? Or are we to refer to other places that talk about his Reality Marble? Clearly it's the latter, and this can be dismissed as an Argument from Silence.

I honestly have no idea what the hell you are even replying to at this point. Because right now you went full circle and ultimately ended up agreeing with me...
The main effect of Overload is to enhance Lightning Magecraft, which ties into its very name. You want to claim that it also has the function of allowing Roa to open the portal? That's fine by me and I'm actually inclined to agree with that. But what does that change exactly? You are aware that Overload was brought up to dismiss the idea of Roa opening a portal during his Last Arc, right? But unfortunately Roa creating Overload does not mean he cannot also open the portal. It could just as easily mean it is part of the process. It does not disprove anything lol.

Argument from silence? That's rich coming from someone who takes no direct mention of Akasha as it meaning that Roa's title and reincarnation method must necessarily have nothing to do with it. I'm not interested in this hypocritical double standards. Either prove, in no uncertain way, that absolutely nothing Roa does has absolutely nothing to do with Akasha, and that the basic universal rule of souls accessing Akasha upon death somehow does not apply to him, or just concede and retain your dignity.

We get a description of what "Serpent of Akasha" means twice (Arcueid's route and MBAC's PS2 manual), and neither time are we told what the "Akasha" part actually means. Once again, a case of something that could be supporting evidence, but with no primary evidence in sight.

This is where it can be actually said "Argument from Silence". Again, imagine asking how is the guy that prevents his soul from being absorbed into Akasha and transmits it to another individual related to Akasha. If Roa can prevent his own soul (Which automatically accesses Akasha upon the physical demise, or even mere near death incidents) from dispersing into the Root, then there is obviously no need to mention him circumventing the Root's absorption, as that would be self evident, but for some reason it is oblivious to you.

If he's using his RM to create a portal, then this directly goes against your claim of it only having to do with his lightning spells.

......And also against your claim about the Last Arc being related to the RM, as if that disproved the notion of Roa opening a portal to Akasha. All that it means is that the RM also allows Roa to open the portal, beyond its main effect of empowering his lightning magecraft.

A part of his Reality Marble or some other attack related to it maybe, as MB Archives implies by saying he creates his Reality Marble with absolutely no reference to any pathway to the Root. (inb4 a falsely applied 'argument from silence' gets thrown back at me)

Exactly. So, given that the main, primary purpose the RM was created for was empowering Roa's lightning magecraft, and the title suggest that this specific move is more related to his reincarnation method, which also has a term used to describe Akasha in certain contexts (With us knowing for a fact that Roa's reincarnation method is preventing himself from being absorbed by Akasha), it's reasonable to assume this other unknown attack involves opening a portal for Akasha. When all evidence leads to something, even if it isn't explicitly stated, it's only logical to make a deduction on it. Whining about "Argument from silence" does nothing to help your position, especially when you have been using arguments from silence yourself this whole thread.

It could in some way be related to the magecraft he used to preserve and transfer aspects of his soul, maybe. Or it could be that the name doesn't even mean much as Kouma's Last Arc show

And that could is decided by the context around the Last Arc and the characters. And I already went over why Kishima's Last Arc cannot be compared to that of Roa. And the title is still actually very in line with what we know of him and his family's martial arts.

Ciel's Another Arc Drive being called "Redemption from Original Sin" despite the Seventh Holy Scripture having literally nothing to do with the doctrine.

Wow! So the conceptual, holy weapon owned and blessed by the Burial Agency of the Church created specifically to kill supernatural entities in the name of God and that uses literal holy scripture pages as ammunition is not related to the doctrine? I'm shocked.

Heck, the title could even be interpreted as a reference to Roa's death in the VN, with Ciel finding redemption from her sin of killing her whole town by vanquishing him. There can be multiple interpretations, and it does not describe the attack itself. Roa's title on the other hand, can have only one interpretation that falls in line with everything that we know about him, and would explain why Roa does not use Overload for what it was mainly created for, but for something else.

Your "explanation" isn't supported by anything beyond vague connections in the name of the move. It's not even an explanation at all, it's headcanon.

I'm glad you feel that way.

Thus far you've failed to show any actual evidence of Roa's soul passing through the Root and having Outerversal durability because of it, instead appealing to vague connections, fallacious reasoning, and straight-up headcanon.

I provided an extremely clear statement that you dismissed as "flowery language" for reasons only known for yourself, and then, not content with that, you decided to take it even further and equated something that's used blatantly differently in their respective contexts (Nothingness). I provided basic lore, which you have twisted around with your beloved Argument from Silence (Which you ironically accuse me of). I pointed out how Roa has multiple details and things that are connected to Akasha. And you handwaved them as "vague", without even providing on your own a single shred of evidence so far that Roa can magically skip the Root. Yet you have the audacity to call what I provided "headcanon". When the entirety of this site is filled with headcanon like crosscaling Grand Order to the original CCC and Extra, Authorities working like DB power levels, Ryougi Shiki becoming a pacifist after KnK, Archetype Earth not being on Void's level despite the entire MB route heavily implying it, among other inane things. I should have known better than bothering with this again. I should have just followed my initial intention of dropping by with one post.

Further, Roa's soul being Outerversal leads to insane absurdities like the Seventh Holy Scripture, something created from a random unicorn horn, being stronger than the literal Root of all of creation which can't even be properly described in any way shape or form.

Quit the strawman, please. I never claimed this, and already clarified that a soul resisting Akasha's passive absorption does not mean it is stronger than Akasha itself entirely. And that there are other characters that go even beyond that and can manipulate aspects of Akasha. With Void Shiki having the least restrictions among all in terms of using it. We already know through MEODP that Akasha can obliterate Roa's soul if it actively enacts his death anyway. But of course, all of this flew over your head in favor of a very pitiful attempt at misinterpreting my argument and twist it just to make it look bad. Because you have nothing else to stand on.

Anyway, with this I'm out. I don't even care about any kind of downgrade or upgrade that comes out of this, as this site's reasoning is fundamentally flawed, but I care about the source material being properly represented. Though it's obvious that misinterpreting the lore is bound to stay the norm. So whatever.

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

There is no problem with a conceptual weapon that was made from the horn of a creature that consumed souls being able to affect souls indeed and disperse them into nothingness. There is no problem with Roa's soul being able to circumvent the Root's passive absorption either. Many characters already scale to the Root to different extents. Crimson Moon could even affect the very cycle of death and rebirth of Akasha according to Wallachia. There is nothing so special or terrific about it. The reason Void's connection is on an entirely different level and actually qualifies as the "apex" of the verse, is because she has access to most of Akasha and its functions, rather than simply individual aspects like the other characters.

Quit the strawman, please. I never claimed this, and already clarified that a soul resisting Akasha's passive absorption does not mean it is stronger than Akasha itself entirely.

if you agree to Roa's soul not scaling to the Root (and thus not being 1-A) then we really don't have a problem lol. I'd rather get any other issues hashed out elsewhere because going back and forth on a forum about unrelated topics is just an invitation to gish galloping on both sides, but if his soul isn't 1-A then his soul isn't 1-A regardless of whatever else it does, the changes applied to the profile are still the same.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Bump

 

[Franstel]

Just learnt of the thread via gilgamesh vs sonic.
Well I agree

 

[KingNanaya]

Just learnt of the thread via gilgamesh vs sonic.
Well I agree

My condolences

 

[Franstel]

My condolences

Why

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

note that if we still take roas souls durability scaling to the root then any potential tier 0 is super contradicted

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

@Mageman460 Btw the scan in OP died.

 

[KingNanaya]

note that if we still take roas souls durability scaling to the root then any potential tier 0 is super contradicted

we won't be, don't worry

Why

tis a goofy, silly match

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Just learnt of the thread via gilgamesh vs sonic.
Well I agree

Hey, I unintentionally managed to revive this thread! Neat.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Anyway, I still agree with the op, but, uh, all of the scans have to be fixed.

 

[Mageman460]

Fixed the scan in the OP.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Yeah the OP looks fine.

 

[HyperZero95]

I know you are trying to make this pass off because you somehow think it contradicts Akasha being Tier 0 (Even though it doesn't really. Manipulating abstract concepts flowed from Akasha =/= The unifying omnipotent force), but what about Death Perception, Unified Language, True Magic and literally every form of magecraft and supernatural phenomena in the verse? Because everyone enacting them connects to Akasha and manipulates its aspects. At least have some degree of consistency lol. The baffling thing about this thread is that Roa is very far from the main problem. Death Perception (Aka the concept of Death/End that was emanated by the One) perma killing him already proves he does not scale to the omnipotent singularity in any shape or form. But Death Perception itself is also an Akasha power. Sion even said mages connect to the One through magic circuits. There are many, many different levels of connection to Akasha in the lore. If you wish to ignore the stuff about Roa's soul to fit the tiering system, that's alright, but you need to provide justification for every other power that involves manipulating aspects of Akasha, otherwise people are not going to buy it.

 

[Mageman460]

I know you are trying to make this pass off because you somehow think it contradicts Akasha being Tier 0 (Even though it doesn't really. Manipulating abstract concepts flowed from Akasha =/= The unifying omnipotent force), but what about Death Perception, Unified Language, True Magic and literally every form of magecraft and supernatural phenomena in the verse? Because everyone enacting them connects to Akasha and manipulates its aspects. At least have some degree of consistency lol. The baffling thing about this thread is that Roa is very far from the main problem. Death Perception (Aka the concept of Death/End that was emanated by the One) perma killing him already proves he does not scale to the omnipotent singularity in any shape or form. But Death Perception itself is also an Akasha power. Sion even said mages connect to the One through magic circuits. There are many, many different levels of connection to Akasha in the lore. If you wish to ignore the stuff about Roa's soul to fit the tiering system, that's alright, but you need to provide justification for every other power that involves manipulating aspects of Akasha, otherwise people are not going to buy it.

This thread was not made with the idea that Roa surviving the Root contradicts Tier 0. This thread was made because, as specifically said already, Roa is never actually said to have been to the Root. In fact Ciel even says the opposite when describing his Reincarnation process. And with what you're posting, you don't even seem to support the idea that Roa's soul is Root level.

Regardless, with Sir_Ovens, that is enough staff to pass the CRT. Only pages that really need to be changed are Roa and the Shikis. For Roa I'll be removing his Resistance to Soul Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation, Information Manipulation, Existence Erasure and Absorption (His soul can pass through the Swirl Of The Root without being erased or absorbed). Shiki Tohno and Ryougi will have their 1-A through MEoDP removed. I'll leave it as Unknown for now and let someone else make a thread upgrading them back to Root level or whatever level is more appropriate.

 

[CRIMPSUMPSKI2]

This thread was not made with the idea that Roa surviving the Root contradicts Tier 0. This thread was made because, as specifically said already, Roa is never actually said to have been to the Root. In fact Ciel even says the opposite when describing his Reincarnation process. And with what you're posting, you don't even seem to support the idea that Roa's soul is Root level.

Regardless, with Sir_Ovens, that is enough staff to pass the CRT. Only pages that really need to be changed are Roa and the Shikis. For Roa I'll be removing his Soul Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation, Information Manipulation, Existence Erasure and Absorption (His soul can pass through the Swirl Of The Root without being erased or absorbed). Shiki Tohno and Ryougi will have their 1-A through MEoDP removed. I'll leave it as Unknown for now and let someone else make a thread upgrading them back to Root level or whatever level is more appropriate.

regardless of what the conclusion on the Root stuff is the soul manip should be kept

 

[KingNanaya]

regardless of what the conclusion on the Root stuff is the soul manip should be kept

I think he means from the resistances

 

[Mageman460]

I think he means from the resistances

Yeah, my bad I'll edit the above message real quick.

 

[Everything12]

You know while reading up on the Remake (or Melty Blood can't remember which) I did notice that his reincarnation mentioned instantly transferring and not anything to do with the Root. Never actually put much thought into it beyond that but I do agree with this thread.

 

[KingNanaya]

we should give Roa tier 0 social influencing fr fr

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

we should give Roa tier 0 social influencing fr fr

Wait, that's not what the thread was about?! I've been lied to, bamboozled, and even tricked!

 

[Mageman460]

Changes have been applied, this thread can be closed.