Nasuverse - Swirl of the Root Tier and Reasoning Re-Evaluation

[Firestorm808]

With the recent tiering system revisions, I figured this topic would come up in its application. The purpose of this thread is to re-evaluate the reasoning used on the profile of the Root.

As this is a staff thread, any regular users who want to contribute must get consent from an existing staff member. Do not spam. Derailing will be deleted. Cite your sources.

Our Current Tiering Requirements​

Q: How can a character be 1-A and above without an infinite-dimensional/infinitely-layered cosmology, then?​

A: A good way to accomplish this would be to show that whatever state of being in which they exist is completely independent of the number of layers/dimensions present on the setting. For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted. This argument generalizes to tiers higher than 1-A as well.

Note that, in order to jump to 1-A this way, it does not suffice that adding one or several layers/dimensions makes no difference to the character in question. That much could be true even if the character only has one level of qualitative superiority to the constructs, as then they would all appear to have zero / infinitely small size to them. It has to be clear in some fashion that even if an infinite or unlimited number of dimensions/layers are added or removed, it would make no difference to the character. The same applies to similarly large jumps in other tiers, like from 1-A to 1-A+ etc.

1-A: Transcendent​

Characters or objects that functionally transcend the rest of the Tiering System. These characters are completely transcendent to even those that have absolute power over a single infinite hierarchy of levels of infinity.

Low 1-A: Low Outerverse level​

Characters or objects that can affect structures with a number of dimensions greater than the set of natural numbers, meaning in simple terms that the number of dimensions is aleph-1 (An uncountably infinite number, assumed to be the cardinality of the real numbers themselves), and therefore that such objects fully exceed High 1-B structures, which have only a countably infinite number of dimensions. More information on the concept is available on this page.

Note that, if the High 1-B structure in question is a hierarchy of levels of existence, then simply being at the top of such a hierarchy does not qualify a character for this tier without more context, and an additional layer added on top of the "infinity-th" level of this hierarchy is likewise not enough. To qualify as an equivalent of the above description, they need to surpass the hierarchy as a whole, and not simply be on another level within it.

1-A: Outerverse level​

Characters or objects that can affect structures with a number of dimensions equal to the cardinal aleph-2, which in practical terms also equals a level that completely exceeds Low 1-A structures to the same degree that they exceed High 1-B and below. This can be extrapolated to larger cardinal numbers as well, such as aleph-3, aleph-4, and so on, and works in much the same way as 1-C and 1-B in that regard. Characters that stand an infinite number of steps above baseline 1-A are to have a + modifier in their Attack Potency section (Outerverse level+).

Current Profile Statements about the Root​

Swirl of the Root

「　」, also referred to as the Swirl of the Root or most commonly the Root, is a metaphysical "force" that exists beyond everything else in the entire Nasuverse, transcendent of reality, dualistic function, and all concepts. It stores and archives all possible information, and is both the origin...

vsbattles.fandom.com

• Is the "Spiral of Origin", the grand mass of nothingness that all concepts in existence sprang forth from, and is where everything returns when it is destroyed.
• Exists at the summit of all dimensional theories, existing independently of its definitions.
• It is completely transcendent of the rest of reality, an unrestrained domain free from binary opposition.

Current Opinions​

@Firestorm808 : I would assume it doesn't meet the current requirements. You would need a blatant statement for actual/hypothetical infinite transcendence. Being at the summit of all dimensional theories would also be scrutinized for NLF. As far as I know, they only describe/portray up to 8 dimensions in the series.

On another note, I am told that the actual translation of the "dimensional theories" statement is supposed to be:

虚淵 玄（Nitroplus）『Fate/Zero 1 第四次聖杯戦争秘話』第2回 Illustration／武内 崇・TYPE-MOON | 最前線

あの奈須きのこがシナリオを担当した大人気ゲーム『Fate/stay night』の前日譚を虚淵玄が描いた傑作小説『Fate/Zero』が星海社文庫の創刊に堂々の登場！ １巻目となる「第四次聖杯戦争秘話」は『最前線』にて全文公開！

sai-zen-sen.jp

"神秘学の語るところによれば、この世界の外側には次元論の頂点に在る“力”があるという。

あらゆる出来事の発端とされる座標。それが、すべての魔術師の悲願たる『根源の渦』……万物の始まりにして終焉しゅうえん、この世の全てを記録し、この世の全てを創造できるという神の座である。"

"According to occultism, there is a "power" that is at the top of the dimensional theory outside this world.

Coordinates at which all events originate. That is the 'Vortex of Root', the long-cherished wish of all mages... the place of God who can record everything in this world and create everything in this world, the beginning and the end of all things."

Can any translators confirm this statement and the meaning behind it? Thank you.

@DontTalk: If one statement is "above all dimensional theories", then one could look into what kind of dimensional theories are mentioned in the verse. If one with infinite dimensions is mentioned, one can debate if it gets such a tier.
But if all theories mentioned are at best 8D and otherwise there also exists nothing larger than 8D space in the verse, it might be 9D-level. But yeah, take that as just a first impression.

Proposal​

• Without evidence of infinite transcendence, the Swirl of the Root will be designated as one level of infinity above the highest dimensionality mentioned in the series outside the Root, that being the MoonCell created a barrier that cut through 8 dimensions (1-C)

We would appreciate fan and staff help in the matter. Again, as this is a staff thread, any regular users who want to contribute must get consent from an existing staff member. Do not spam. Derailing will be deleted. Cite your sources.

@DarkDragonMedeus
@Qawsedf234
@Deagonx
@Ultima_Reality

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I know little to nothing of the verse, but it is fine I suppose.

 

[Firestorm808]

if downgrade goes through, outer gods are already accepted as 9D iirc tho so root is 10D then no? aint no way the verse being downgraded below antispiral's foot

Do we have a site thread for the 9-D outer gods for us to reference?

Also, what part of requesting consent do you guys not understand for staff threads?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

gotta go search that up its somehere in wiki but this profile is here

Foreigner (Abigail Williams)

Foreigner is a Foreigner-class Pseudo-Servant summoned by Ritsuka Fujimaru during the Salem sub-singularity of Fate/Grand Order. Foreigner's True Name is Abigail Williams, the first of the children to fling the accusations of witchcraft that would begin the infamous Salem Witch Trials. Normally...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Sorry to bud into the thread but it's important to clear up some confusion. Moon cell dimensions are only possibly 8-D. There are normally 6 dimensions within nasuverse. Outer Gods are 7-D POSSIBLY 9-D. It's just that a lot of the stuff isn't applied to profiles. Here's the thread btw. https://vsbattles.com/threads/fate-grand-order-lostbelt-revision.139062/

 

[Firestorm808]

I think it should also be mentioned that we have yet another thread addressing things like “above dimensionality” or “beyond all dimensions”, so it’s best to keep this at bay until that’s finished, cause the tiers being argued in that thread are between Low 1A and High 1A

Again, this is a staff thread. Please ask before posting.

Also, doesn't that only apply to Aleph-1 and above from infinite transcendence? Alephs don't seem to apply here.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Also here since I have permission. https://vsbattles.com/threads/amend...nite-hierarchy-guideline.151981/#post-5660480
DT addresses tiering via being beyond concepts and that it isn't enough to warrant a 1-A rating without clear context about infinite dimensions or how it's unreachable by an infinite hierarchy of dimensions. Apophatic Theology is essentially just being beyond any concept/name you can give something.

 

[Tarang123]

Again, this is a staff thread. Please ask before posting.

Also, doesn't that only apply to Aleph-1 and above from infinite transcendence? Alephs don't seem to apply here.

My bad, but I felt it was relevant as it directly tied to the purpose of the CRT.

As for your second point, I’m pretty sure it doesn’t as the OP in that thread specifically references Nasuverse as one of the affected verses.

And currently, the debate about where stuff like “beyond the concept of dimensions” would scale on our tiering system is still ongoing.

 

[Chasekilleen]

Again, this is a staff thread. Please ask before posting.

Hi am I able to chime in? Because I believe that the quotes you have here are a bit unclear.

"神秘学の語るところによれば、この世界の外側には次元論の頂点に在る“力”があるという。

あらゆる出来事の発端とされる座標。それが、すべての魔術師の悲願たる『根源の渦』……万物の始まりにして終焉しゅうえん、この世の全てを記録し、この世の全てを創造できるという神の座である。”

Can I please chime in this thread on the raw Japanese side of things?
Thanks.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Also here since I have permission. https://vsbattles.com/threads/amend...nite-hierarchy-guideline.151981/#post-5660480
DT addresses tiering via being beyond concepts and that it isn't enough to warrant a 1-A rating without clear context about infinite dimensions or how it's unreachable by an infinite hierarchy of dimensions. Apophatic Theology is essentially just being beyond any concept/name you can give something.

In his message wall https://vsbattles.com/members/donttalkdt.1149/ I asked him about Apophatic Theology and he also mentions how Apophatic Theology is officially treated as nothing as we do not tier off of religious or theological ideas. So Apophatic Theology getting a tier was just based off of it being beyond conceptions essentially, rather than the religious idea itself.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Also, if you are referring to Low 1A thread, I don’t think it affect Fate as the Root was 1A due to a CRT IIRC

 

[Firestorm808]

And currently, the debate about where stuff like “beyond the concept of dimensions” would scale on our tiering system is still ongoing.

Due to NLF scrutinization, you need to show that the franchise concept entails infinite dimensions, no?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Due to NLF scrutinization, you need to show that the franchise concept entails infinite dimensions, no?

Or something similar, but personally having to relied on conceptual and philosophical ideas and/or concepts is a bit unusual as there are definitely something to said how it is should been treated. Case by Case.

 

[Tarang123]

Due to NLF scrutinization, you need to show that the franchise concept entails infinite dimensions, no?

All that was really changed was that a verse can’t just add some arbitrary finite amount of dimensions, but must also show that infinite also doesn’t matter. It doesn’t particularly say how this can be done, though I know DT gave a personal example of it.

The other staff thread is arguing between 3 sides. The side to turn these kinds of statements into “infinity + 1”, the side to make them High 1A, and the side to make them Low 1A

 

[HammerStrikes219]

All that was really changed was that a verse can’t just add some arbitrary finite amount of dimensions, but must also show that infinite also doesn’t matter. It doesn’t particularly say how this can be done, though I know DT gave a personal example of it.

The other staff thread is arguing between 3 sides. The side to turn these kinds of statements into “infinity + 1”, the side to make them High 1A, and the side to make them Low 1A

I partly disagree, I suppose. As said before, I think that if the feat in question is "Plane of existence X is in some unreachable point beyond any finite addition of layers of existence," that's High 1-B. If it's unreachable to infinite layers too, it's Low 1-A. Meanwhile if it's beyond dimensionality outright, it shouldn't be Low 1-A, it should be High 1-A at absolute worst.

That was what Ultima did say in the Low 1A thread, but after the debacle between DonTalk and Ultima, it is rather extremely confusing where they are on about as quite frankly, it is rather hard to tell what their actual stances are.

 

[Tarang123]

That was what Ultima did say in the Low 1A thread, but after the debacle between DonTalk and Ultima, it is rather extremely confusing where they are on about as quite frankly, it is rather hard to tell what their actual stances are.

I mean, it’s not that hard. They’ve made them pretty clear. Dt wants it to be “infinity + 1” and Ultima wants the baseline to be High 1A.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I mean, it’s not that hard. They’ve made them pretty clear. Dt wants it to be “infinity + 1” and Ultima wants the baseline to be High 1A.

He talking about beyond dimensionality which is beyond infinity + 1 and all that stuff including the one with low 1A. Anyway, he say he only partially disagreeing with the thread so it is quite likely he partially agree with some parts of the low 1A.

Either way, I don’t think it is that simple to say the least

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Not to mention Ultima Reality was also a former consultant on the tiering system before he was retired of that position, but we getting off topic and isn’t exactly related to this thread.

So far, I will agree with the OP’s proposal , but just know if Ultima say “Beyond dimensionality”, then it is kinda counterproductive to all the suddenly assign “beyond dimensionality” and assume that gets High 1A as that is a vague statement unto itself as it is always depends on the cosmology of the verse itself and what allows it to being High 1A in the first place.

 

[KLOL506]

@CrimsonStarFallen @Paul_Frank

 

[Tarang123]

So far, I will agree with the OP’s proposal , but just know if Ultima say “Beyond dimensionality”, then it is kinda counterproductive to all the suddenly assign “beyond dimensionality” and assume that gets High 1A as that is a vague statement unto itself as it is always depends on the cosmology of the verse itself and what allows it to being High 1A in the first place.

Well no, that's not at all true. If you read his post/arguments, you'd know there's a fundamental difference between being beyond dimensionality and being beyond dimensions. Being beyond dimensionality is the equivalent of being beyond the axiom of replacement, if you want to think about it in math terms. Being beyond dimensions could be simplified as being beyond your current dimension or existing dimensions. There's a difference

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Well no, that's not at all true. If you read his post/arguments, you'd know there's a fundamental difference between being beyond dimensionality and being beyond dimensions. Being beyond dimensionality is the equivalent of being beyond the axiom of replacement, if you want to think about it in math terms. Being beyond dimensions could be simplified as being beyond your current dimension or existing dimensions. There's a difference

What is the actual difference though? Dimensionality still involves dimensions and as such it relates to dimensional tiering.


Something I recall this wiki did drop, but not sure if it was in its entirety or was still retained in some shape or form.

Separating the two when both are ultimately still connected to one another as such I don’t see that much difference especially given we talking about higher dimensions and so on.


Also it is late on my end, but I still will remaining in agreement currently

 

[Tarang123]

What is the actual difference though? Dimensionality still involves dimensions and as such it relates to dimensional tiering.


Something I recall this wiki did drop, but not sure if it was in its entirety or was still retained in some shape or form.

Separating the two when both are ultimately still connected to one another as such I don’t see that much difference especially given we talking about higher dimensions and so on.


Also it is late on my end, but I still will remaining in agreement currently

Because one of them is the equivalent of being beyond the concept of dimensions, the very foundations of dimensions, and the other is just being beyond the currently existing dimensions in the verse. You cannot simplify them as one and the same.

But let's be honest, it's best to just leave this up to that Low 1A thread instead of bringing it here

 

[AizenSosuke]

Swirl of the Root

「　」, also referred to as the Swirl of the Root or most commonly the Root, is a metaphysical "force" that exists beyond everything else in the entire Nasuverse, transcendent of reality, dualistic function, and all concepts. It stores and archives all possible information, and is both the origin...

vsbattles.fandom.com

• Is the "Spiral of Origin", the grand mass of nothingness that all concepts in existence sprang forth from, and is where everything returns when it is destroyed.
• Exists at the summit of all dimensional theories, existing independently of its definitions.
• It is completely transcendent of the rest of reality, an unrestrained domain free from binary opposition.

Current Opinions​

: I would assume it doesn't meet the current requirements. You would need a blatant statement for actual/hypothetical infinite transcendence. Being at the summit of all dimensional theories would also be scrutinized for NLF. As far as I know, they only describe/portray up to 8 dimensions in the series.

On another note, I am told that the actual translation of the "dimensional theories" statement is supposed to be:

虚淵 玄（Nitroplus）『Fate/Zero 1 第四次聖杯戦争秘話』第2回 Illustration／武内 崇・TYPE-MOON | 最前線

あの奈須きのこがシナリオを担当した大人気ゲーム『Fate/stay night』の前日譚を虚淵玄が描いた傑作小説『Fate/Zero』が星海社文庫の創刊に堂々の登場！ １巻目となる「第四次聖杯戦争秘話」は『最前線』にて全文公開！

sai-zen-sen.jp

"神秘学の語るところによれば、この世界の外側には次元論の頂点に在る“力”があるという。

あらゆる出来事の発端とされる座標。それが、すべての魔術師の悲願たる『根源の渦』……万物の始まりにして終焉しゅうえん、この世の全てを記録し、この世の全てを創造できるという神の座である。"

"According to occultism, there is a "power" that is at the top of the dimensional theory outside this world.

Coordinates at which all events originate. That is the 'Vortex of Root', the long-cherished wish of all mages... the place of God who can record everything in this world and create everything in this world, the beginning and the end of all things."

Can any translators confirm this statement and the meaning behind it? Thank you.

If one statement is "above all dimensional theories", then one could look into what kind of dimensional theories are mentioned in the verse. If one with infinite dimensions is mentioned, one can debate if it gets such a tier.

But if all theories mentioned are at best 8D and otherwise there also exists nothing larger than 8D space in the verse, it might be 9D-level. But yeah, take that as just a first impression.

Proposal​

• Without evidence of infinite transcendence, the Swirl of the Root will be designated as one level of infinity above the highest dimensionality mentioned in the series outside the Root, that being the MoonCell created a barrier that cut through 8 dimensions (1-C)

We would appreciate fan and staff help in the matter. Again, as this is a staff thread, any regular users who want to contribute must get consent from an existing staff member. Do not spam. Derailing will be deleted. Cite your sources.

Root have Apopathic Theology/Negative Theology and wiki treats it as 1A thats enough for it to be 1A and ig u didnt read the CRT of Root

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Also here since I have permission. https://vsbattles.com/threads/amend...nite-hierarchy-guideline.151981/#post-5660480
DT addresses tiering via being beyond concepts and that it isn't enough to warrant a 1-A rating without clear context about infinite dimensions or how it's unreachable by an infinite hierarchy of dimensions. Apophatic Theology is essentially just being beyond any concept/name you can give something.

In his message wall https://vsbattles.com/members/donttalkdt.1149/ I asked him about Apophatic Theology and he also mentions how Apophatic Theology is officially treated as nothing as we do not tier off of religious or theological ideas. So Apophatic Theology getting a tier was just based off of it being beyond conceptions essentially, rather than the religious idea itself.

Root have Apopathic Theology/Negative Theology and wiki treats it as 1A thats enough for it to be 1A and ig u didnt read the CRT of Root

 

[Firestorm808]

Root have Apopathic Theology/Negative Theology and wiki treats it as 1A thats enough for it to be 1A and ig u didnt read the CRT of Root

See https://vsbattles.com/profile-posts/53931/

Apopathic Theology/Negative Theology is not even used in our reference pages.

 

[Antvasima]

@CrimsonStarFallen @Newendigo @Iapitus_The_Impaler @RegisNex1232

What do you think about thIs?

 

[Antvasima]

@Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @PrinceofPein @Everything12 @Planck69 @Ovy7

Your input would also be appreciated here.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Well since I was pinged here despite avoiding it, and got permission from Crimson, I'll give my two cents

Firstly before getting into any Nasu specific stuff, I'll say the way the faq is being interpreted is a bit counter productive and not actually directly supported by the text there. It's being taken as "there must be a shown or mentioned infinite dimensional hierarchy or it doesn't count as 1-A and is merely X+1" but that's not actually what it says

It simply says it needs to be clear that it's not just unaffected by adding 1 or several dimensions or layers, but instead it must not be affected by any amount. This drastically changes things as it means a statement that inherently puts something beyond the very system of dimensions as a whole meets said requirement (if you're just beyond the system or concept of it, you're not beyond X amount, it's inherently any extension of it including infinite, which means those statements sorta just objectively pass that criteria).

With this in mind, the justification of the root still works for 1-A with that faq wording. As, getting into tl and verse specific stuff

神秘学の語るところによれば、この世界の外側には次元論の頂点に在る“力”があるという。

あらゆる出来事の発端とされる座標。それが、すべての魔術師の悲願たる『根源の渦』……万物の始まりにして終焉しゅうえん、この世の全てを記録し、この世の全てを創造できるという神の座である。"

"According to occultism, there is a "power" that is at the top of the dimensional theory outside this world.

Coordinates at which all events originate. That is the 'Vortex of Root', the long-cherished wish of all mages... the place of God who can record everything in this world and create everything in this world, the beginning and the end of all things."

"The dimensional theory" is incorrect, "the" isn't in the text, they aren't talking about one specific theory. They are simply saying dimensional theory as a whole, like all of it, which is defined as the system by which dimensions are described or explained, with stuff like model theory and set theory being specific named subsets of overall dimensional theory, which it encompasses.

頂点 Does in fact mean top or apex, however taking that to mean it's part of and bound by dimensional theory is a bit disingenuous when we look at some further context. For instance the remainder of that sentence is that the "force" or "power" in question exists outside of the World.

The World is the limits for humanity, their understanding, and what any concepts related to or known by them extend to, as it is all of existence as far as humanity knows (not actually just the planet earth). Not a single concept which humanity understands or possibly can understand ever, no matter how advanced, applies outside of the World. This is why for instance, Types are impossible to deal with, the very concepts of the World don't apply to them. This means that said dimensional theory being described doesn't apply to the Root, which is outside of the World and explicitly beyond it according to all statements. It can't be part of it as the very area it can extend to is what the Root is explicitly beyond, so apex/top here can't mean it's part of it, especially when according to Shiki, she, as " " itself, can overturn the systems of the world, crushing them and replacing them with whatever she wants, which, given what dimensional theory actually means, would include that too.

If that explanation of why it's not included in said dimensional theory and is beyond it wasn't enough, it's apophatic nature also necessitates this being the case, as it is inherently beyond any description or attribute you can give it, as they will all fail to encompass its true nature.

Taking into account that the line is speaking of dimensional theory (the system by which dimensions are explained and described) as a whole, and the fact that via context snd further statements on the World and Root, dimensional theory can't possibly include the Root in it, this brings me back to my point earlier about the faq, this fulfills the criteria laid out in the answer itself it makes it clear that it's unaffected by the addition of any number of dimensions, as it's atop and outside of any possible extensions of the amount of dimensions by being atop and outside of the system of dimensions as a whole.

Something else rather important, you don't even need to accept that its beyond and outside of dimensional theory via being outside of the world. If you are the apex of dimensional theory (again the entire system by which dimensions are described) you're inherently above any possible extensions of dimensions, and thus fit the criteria for 1-A with the faq in mind, especially when combined with stuff meaning its necessarily beyond any descriptions and attributes

As a side note, saying apophatic stuff is treated as nothing is also incorrect, I'm not sure why DT thinks this, it's not currently an instant tier 0 or something but it is, in fact, used on the wiki. I'm also not sure why his one post on that on a message is being taken as gospel.

Before the inevitable "that's nlf" no, that's not how nlf works. NLF would be me taking a statement like "there's no limit to his power" and extrapolating that to "he's boundless and can destroy anything". Taking the very literal statement that "X is beyond the very system of dimensions" as "X is beyond the very system of dimensions" isn't nlf, that's just reading comprehension

 

[Ultima_Reality]

@Ultima_Reality

Since I'm called here, I'll say that, by and large, I just agree with Paul. He's said some minorly weird things but those are irrelevant to the overall point, so, no use in nitpicking that.

To this, I add that I have no idea of what DontTalk is on about when he says negative theology amounts to nothing tiering-wise. Even if you don't consider it an instant passport to Tier 0 or whatever, it's not exactly hard to see that it, by definition, directly leads to an infinite regress, which is really functionally no different from being above the possibility of an infinite hierarchy. Let's take a look at the scans given, for reference:

“ ” | TMdict

www.tmdict.com

More specifically these parts:

Right. The Spiral of Origin, or more simply the Root. Sometimes it's referred to as 「　」, the thing for which there can be no reference. It is the source of everything, the 'zero' from which all matter and phenomena flow. Ah, but now that I'm trying to put it into words, I'm realizing that's not a good idea. After all, even the idea of 'zero' has baggage that makes it unsuitable as a comparison.

If you really wished to pronounce this term, call it “Kara.”
Its meaning varied depending on each individual’s understanding. To put it in simple terms, it was the Spiral of Origin.
However, since the Spiral of Origin was called the Spiral of Origin, it was no longer “ ”.
To properly express this term was a source of headache during the production of the drama CDs.

So this is to say that the Root, by nature, exceeds any descriptions of itself. More specifically, if you attempt to impose a description on it, that description will automatically refer to something lesser than, and ultimately separate from its essence, because that essence is ultimately the thing for which there can be no reference. As the text says: Sometimes it was called the Spiral of Origin. But since the Spiral of Origin is a well-defined term, it's now below what the Root really is. This is to say that even defining it as the transcendent and absolutely empty source of all is a reduction of its nature.

By definition, then, even acknowledging that this is so and referring to it as simply 「　」 also leads to you reducing what it actually is, and acknowledging that you are doing that also leads to that same result, because all verbal expression ultimately fails to approach it.

Mix that with the dimensional theory stuff, and I find this downgrade attempt pretty baffling overall. I obviously disagree.

 

[Chasekilleen]

"The dimensional theory" is incorrect, "the" isn't in the text, they aren't talking about one specific theory. They are simply saying dimensional theory as a whole, like all of it, which is defined as the system by which dimensions are described or explained, with stuff like model theory and set theory being specific named subsets of overall dimensional theory, which it encompasses.

Ehhhhhhhhhhhh, that's not what it says. We have been through this multiple times, but I don't think you are being completely honest here.
According to occultism, there is a power standing at the apex of the dimensional theory outside of this world. It is considered to be the origin point of everything. The Swirl of the Root is what every Magician desires. It is the seat of God recording and everything in this world. It is the beginning and end of all things.

 

[Firestorm808]

Since I'm called here, I'll say that, by and large, I just agree with Paul. He's said some minorly weird things but those are irrelevant to the overall point, so, no use in nitpicking that.

To this, I add that I have no idea of what DontTalk is on about when he says negative theology amounts to nothing tiering-wise. Even if you don't consider it an instant passport to Tier 0 or whatever, it's not exactly hard to see that it, by definition, directly leads to an infinite regress, which is really functionally no different from being above the possibility of an infinite hierarchy.

So this is to say that the Root, by nature, exceeds any descriptions of itself. More specifically, if you attempt to impose a description on it, that description will automatically refer to something lesser than, and ultimately separate from its essence, because that essence is ultimately the thing for which there can be no reference. As the text says: Sometimes it was called the Spiral of Origin. But since the Spiral of Origin is a well-defined term, it's now below what the Root really is. This is to say that even defining it as the transcendent and absolutely empty source of all is a reduction of its nature.

By definition, then, even acknowledging that this is so and referring to it as simply 「　」 also leads to you reducing what it actually is, and acknowledging that you are doing that also leads to that same result, because all verbal expression ultimately fails to approach it.

Mix that with the dimensional theory stuff, and I find this downgrade attempt pretty baffling overall. I obviously disagree.

The purpose of this thread is to re-evaluate the reasoning used on the profile of the Root.

Swirl of the Root

「　」, also referred to as the Swirl of the Root or most commonly the Root, is a metaphysical "force" that exists beyond everything else in the entire Nasuverse, transcendent of reality, dualistic function, and all concepts. It stores and archives all possible information, and is both the origin...

vsbattles.fandom.com

The page doesn't really explain how and why it gets the 1-A rating in Aleph territory.

Do we have a previous staff discussion or reference page regarding how our site treats negative theology? On another note, where is Apopathic Theology/Negative Theology mentioned in the franchise?

The characteristic of having no definition or transcending concepts is something conceptual and was brought up in a prior staff thread. 1-A isn't the baseline assumption.

It would be beneficial to know the precedent staff agreements and reasonings regarding such topics.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Ehhhhhhhhhhhh, that's not what it says. We have been through this multiple times, but I don't think you are being completely honest here.
According to occultism, there is a power standing at the apex of the dimensional theory outside of this world. It is considered to be the origin point of everything. The Swirl of the Root is what every Magician desires. It is the seat of God recording and everything everything. It is the beginning and end of all things.

No, that is in fact exactly what it says, I'm being pretty honest here, it does not say "the dimensional theory outside of this world", I'm not sure exactly what else to say here besides that's just not at all what the line says, also very nice tl there with "recording and everything everything"

"The dimensional theory" isn't outside the world, the "power" is, this is something clear with the tl of literally everyone and everything else besides yours.

 

[Firestorm808]

@Executor_N0 @Jasonsith

Sorry to bother you, but can you translate the following statement for us:

"神秘学の語るところによれば、この世界の外側には次元論の頂点に在る“力”があるという。

あらゆる出来事の発端とされる座標。それが、すべての魔術師の悲願たる『根源の渦』……万物の始まりにして終焉しゅうえん、この世の全てを記録し、この世の全てを創造できるという神の座である。"

 

[Ultima_Reality]

The purpose of this thread is to re-evaluate the reasoning used on the profile of the Root.

Swirl of the Root

「　」, also referred to as the Swirl of the Root or most commonly the Root, is a metaphysical "force" that exists beyond everything else in the entire Nasuverse, transcendent of reality, dualistic function, and all concepts. It stores and archives all possible information, and is both the origin...

vsbattles.fandom.com

The page doesn't really explain how and why it gets the 1-A rating in Aleph territory.

Do we have a previous staff discussion or reference page regarding how our site treats negative theology? On another note, where is Apopathic Theology/Negative Theology mentioned in the franchise?

The characteristic of having no definition or transcending concepts is something conceptual and was brought up in a prior staff thread. 1-A isn't the baseline assumption.

It would be beneficial to know the precedent staff agreements and reasonings regarding such topics.

I'm aware of what the purpose of this thread is, yes, so I don't know why you bring this up. Furthermore if you want my reasoning for why it should be around the 1-A range, I've already given it in the post you just quoted. I don't know what the counterarguments to that are, so, if anyone wants to present some, they should feel free.

The term 'negative theology' and similar things being mentioned in the verse also isn't what the argument hinges on. The concepts are what's relevant, not the buzzwords used to refer to them.

 

[Chasekilleen]

No, that is in fact exactly what it says, I'm being pretty honest here, it does not say "the dimensional theory outside of this world", I'm not sure exactly what else to say here besides that's just not at all what the line says, also very nice tl there with "recording and everything everything"

Considering there is something called すべて that's actually not present when in the context of mentioning dimensional theory. You have to prove to me that it says all dimensional theory.
Japanese is a very context heavy language, you can't stonewall other people's points, you have to bring solid proof.
It says that this "power" is outside of this world standing at the very apex of dimensional theory. It never says "all of dimensional theory", nice headcanon kek.

 

[Paul_Frank]

@Executor_N0 @Jasonsith

Sorry to bother you, but can you translate the following statement for us:

"神秘学の語るところによれば、この世界の外側には次元論の頂点に在る“力”があるという。

あらゆる出来事の発端とされる座標。それが、すべての魔術師の悲願たる『根源の渦』……万物の始まりにして終焉しゅうえん、この世の全てを記録し、この世の全てを創造できるという神の座である。"

You can quite literally look at the initial upgrade crt with all the scans, or hell, even throw it in mtl, to see that what I'm saying about it not saying the theory is outside the world, is the case, you don't need yet another person to TL to see that


"According to occultism, there exists a "power" outside of this world at the apex of dimensional theory"

Considering there is something called すべて that's actually not present when in the context of mentioning dimensional theory. You have to prove to me that it says all dimensional theory.

This is addressed by your own second point

Japanese is a very context heavy language, you can't stonewall other people's points, you have to bring solid proof.
It says that this "power" is outside of this world standing at the very apex of dimensional theory. It never says "all of dimensional theory", nice headcanon kek.

Japanese is a very context heavy language and you can't just stonewall other peoples points, I agree. The context is that it just means dimensional theory as a whole, because when you look at context, its impossible for it to be referring to a singular dimensional theory here. One is not named or referred to before or after this line in this scene, hell, the sentence doesn't even make sense when you take it to mean a single one "there is a power outside of dimensional theory, but only one specific one that's not actually mentioned" (never saying the to specify singular btw, much like you mentioned it doesn't say すべて, something you'd attribute to context covering I'm sure).

The argument of context makes your point impossible, because context doesn't support the idea of it being one singular unmentioned dimensional theory, you should know this as someone who can speak literally any language, let alone claims to be super fluent in Japanese, that's how context works. Its also very interesting that your tl changed again, this time the power is back outside the world rather than the theory, very cool

 

[Chasekilleen]

Japanese is a very context heavy language and you can't just stonewall other peoples points, I agree. The context is that it just means dimensional theory as a whole, because when you look at context, its impossible for it to be referring to a singular dimensional theory here. One is not named or referred to before or after this line in this scene, hell, the sentence doesn't even make sense when you take it to mean a single one "there is a power outside of dimensional theory, but only one specific one that's not actually mentioned" (never saying the to specify singular btw, much like you mentioned it doesn't say すべて, something you'd attribute to context covering I'm sure).

Where does it mention as a whole? The fact that it says to be at the apex of dimensional theory means that it is still bound and within the confines of dimensional theory. It says it is at the apex point, NOT beyond dimensional theory. If it says beyond or above all of dimensional theory then the Japanese raw would use 支配する instead of 頂点 like all the scans are saying in the raw version.

The only scan that's remotely close to what you are arguing is the English version of Fate Stay Night, where it implies to the fact that the Swirl of Root is above all dimensional theories, not the raw Japanese scans. Hence why I said in an earlier thread why Beast Lair translators didn't do it justice.

Edit: It's not going to go anywhere. I am not convinced unless someone brings specific scans to indicate that it is beyond all dimensional theory. Considering every verse has their own definition of "dimensional theory", it's baseless to try and include all dimensional theory.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Where does it mention as a whole? The fact that it says to be at the apex of dimensional theory means that it is still bound and within the confines of dimensional theory. It says it is at the apex point, NOT beyond dimensional theory. If it says beyond or above all of dimensional theory then the Japanese raw would say 次元論を支配してる instead of 頂点 like all the scans are saying in the raw version.

The only scan that's remotely close to what you are arguing is the English version of Fate Stay Night, where it points to the fact that the Swirl of Root is above all dimensional theories, not the raw Japanese scans. Hence why I said in an earlier thread why Beast Lair translators didn't do it justice.

Using context, as you wanted to, your own version of it quite literally can't work. I explained earlier why the idea that its bound by dimensional theory doesn't work for multiple reasons in my first post, but beyond that, as you brought up, japanese is a context heavy language, it does not always need to use the few specific characters you're saying aren't there to convey an idea that can be conveyed without it via context.

I'll again mention how it doesn't have "the" in it, to signify singular, or any context supporting it being one singular theory, something you conveniently ignored. Despite the lack of "the" to signify singular, you insisted context supported it, and so after saying why context makes that impossible, I've said context shows why its not a singular one that isn't mentioned and is just dimensional theory overall, because funnily enough, that's just exactly what it says.

Also of note, your argument of it not saying すべて for all doesn't work either way, because I'm not saying its saying "all dimensional theories" I'm saying its saying dimensional theory, which is again, the system by which dimensions are described

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Using context, as you wanted to, your own version of it quite literally can't work. I explained earlier why the idea that its bound by dimensional theory doesn't work for multiple reasons in my first post, but beyond that, as you brought up, japanese is a context heavy language, it does not always need to use the few specific characters you're saying aren't there to convey an idea that can be conveyed without it via context.

I'll again mention how it doesn't have "the" in it, to signify singular, or any context supporting it being one singular theory, something you conveniently ignored. Despite the lack of "the" to signify singular, you insisted context supported it, and so after saying why context makes that impossible, I've said context shows why its not a singular one that isn't mentioned and is just dimensional theory overall, because funnily enough, that's just exactly what it says.

Even if it was just beyond dimensional theory in general why would that even be 1-A? It's quite literally dependent on what exists in the verse. To assume it would apply to lets say an infinite dimensional dimensional theory is just sheer NLF.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Even if it was just beyond dimensional theory in general why would that even be 1-A? It's quite literally dependent on what exists in the verse. To assume it would apply to lets say an infinite dimensional dimensional theory is just sheer NLF.

No, its not. If its simply saying dimensional theory overall it does not depend on what is in verse, because it simply includes all of them inherently. As I mentioned in my first post saying "X is beyond the system by which dimensions are described" means "X is beyond the system by which dimensions are described" isn't nlf, its reading comprehension. If it is quite literally just beyond that entire system, or the apex of said system, then it doesn't matter what specific numbers of dimensions exist, or what specific theories exist as its position does not change relative to them, hence applying according to the faq

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

No, its not. If its simply saying dimensional theory overall it does not depend on what is in verse, because it simply includes all of them inherently. As I mentioned in my first post saying "X is beyond the system by which dimensions are described" means "X is beyond the system by which dimensions are described" isn't nlf, its reading comprehension. If it is quite literally just beyond that entire system, or the apex of said system, then it doesn't matter what specific numbers of dimensions exist, or what specific theories exist as its position does not change relative to them, hence applying according to the faq

I'm quite sure that dimensions aren't described by "dimensional theory" nor is it the framework of dimensions but the way they are used in dimensional theory is. Plus that's still quite the extraordinary claim with just "dimensional theory".