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Neloth downgrade
- Thread starter Self_Love
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- neloth the elder scrolls
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So, regarding Neloth resisting Miraak's mindhax:
"I have gone to some pains to ensure that I am immune to many forms of control. I cannot say for certain which is currently protecting me, but it bears further investigation at some point."
It seems that he is unsure what exactly is allowing him to resist the effects of it; although he at least deduces it's something he's done to perpare for an event like that.
"I have gone to some pains to ensure that I am immune to many forms of control. I cannot say for certain which is currently protecting me, but it bears further investigation at some point."
It seems that he is unsure what exactly is allowing him to resist the effects of it; although he at least deduces it's something he's done to perpare for an event like that.
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A genius acts dumbass sometimes. It is common in every fiction. Seriously, the quote shows how crazily the guy prepares himself against all troubles.
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Yeah, I'm not saying it isn't valid, I'm just throwing it here for reference.
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I'm back to say, this entire downgrade revolves around Neloth having a giant ego, but, if Morrowind has anything to say about it, isn't true. Dark Elves act like you're beneath them because they want you to earn their respect, they don't give you credit until you do something that actually impresses them (respect is earned, not given). Neloth rolling his eyes at the Dragonborn's thu'um isn't arrogance, it' him not being impressed by your abilities. Hell you said he thinks Savos is a better restoration mage then him, meaning he actually gives credit when it's due.
He's impressed with the forsworn briarhearts, for their resurrection, and is impressed with Savos and says that he is impressed with both, but with the Dragonborn and Miraak he's lying because?
He's impressed with the forsworn briarhearts, for their resurrection, and is impressed with Savos and says that he is impressed with both, but with the Dragonborn and Miraak he's lying because?
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Like, listen, I ain't saying the Low 2-C rating is entirely justified. I got my own problems with it and I completely understand where you are coming from with this revision.
However, at this current moment, the evidence points to him more likely that not being at least comparable to the Low 2-Cs. This is the whole reason the "possibly" even exists in his profile.
However, at this current moment, the evidence points to him more likely that not being at least comparable to the Low 2-Cs. This is the whole reason the "possibly" even exists in his profile.
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well i think the op still makes more senseAntvasima said:
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- Thread starter
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The entire point of this thread was to remove the possibly rating. We cant sit here and pretend that Neloth has any actual feats that put him where he's currently at right now.
But, as i've said, i'm willing to make a compromise. Here it is.
Tier him being superior to the dragons he fought, a minor Daedra lord who was about to destroy half of Glenumbra, an Altmer who can raise islands & ships andMarien Sella.
Add the possibly rating after that.
But, as i've said, i'm willing to make a compromise. Here it is.
Tier him being superior to the dragons he fought, a minor Daedra lord who was about to destroy half of Glenumbra, an Altmer who can raise islands & ships andMarien Sella.
Add the possibly rating after that.
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yeah neloth has no feats. he never fought alduin, miraak or dovahkiin just a few dragons and him running his mouth
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he said defeating miraak was impressive though
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There's no need to remove the Possibly Rating, and I have sufficiently argued for its staying.
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did you even read what he said
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actually now that i think about it. there's nothing to suggest that neloth is better at enchanting either because the player gets to choose which school of magic they want to focus on. so there's a possiblity of the player already being as skilled in that particular school of magic by the time they meet neloth. All we know is neloth is good at enchanting and made the staff enchanter.
neloth being good at a specfic school of magic doesn't indicate comparable power to dovahkiin because there are various schools of magic and people can be weak and strong in them. neloth even said he could learn restoration magic from savos who isn't universal
Savros? Ha! He wouldn't be fit to be my apprentice. Of course he does have a knack for wards that would be handy to learn.
read the enchanting part https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Dragonborn:Neloth
neloth being good at a specfic school of magic doesn't indicate comparable power to dovahkiin because there are various schools of magic and people can be weak and strong in them. neloth even said he could learn restoration magic from savos who isn't universal
Savros? Ha! He wouldn't be fit to be my apprentice. Of course he does have a knack for wards that would be handy to learn.
read the enchanting part https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Dragonborn:Neloth
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here's what neloth actually thinks about miraak too
"I don't recall asking you to kill Miraak. That was your own project. And now I'm not even mentioning the fact that now we'll never know what would have happened when Miraak returned. Although... from all indications he could have proved a serious nuisance. So, yes, I am grateful that you dealt with him."
"Miraak was a formidable opponent. I wonder what he would have been like as my apprentice."
"Defeating Miraak was an impressive feat. I'm curious to see if Hermaeus Mora seeks you out because of it."
i find the argument of neloth speculating on what miraak would be like as an apprenctice as some sort of proof very weak
"I don't recall asking you to kill Miraak. That was your own project. And now I'm not even mentioning the fact that now we'll never know what would have happened when Miraak returned. Although... from all indications he could have proved a serious nuisance. So, yes, I am grateful that you dealt with him."
"Miraak was a formidable opponent. I wonder what he would have been like as my apprentice."
"Defeating Miraak was an impressive feat. I'm curious to see if Hermaeus Mora seeks you out because of it."
i find the argument of neloth speculating on what miraak would be like as an apprenctice as some sort of proof very weak
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I agree with the OP after reading the whole thread. I think he's spot on.
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Yeah, I'm again starting to lean towards the OP here. We can see that Neloth is superior to the Dovahkiin in enchanting, but being better at enchanting doesn't = comparable in every way. And as people have mentioned, Savros is nowhere near universal and yet Neloth believes he could learn wards from him, proving at least that Neloth is not a master of every magic field, and making the assumption that he is is just that, an assumption. Also, the whole "apprentice" argument is not completely invalid, but it's pretty weak as shown. On top of all that, I haven't seen any conclusive evidence that Neloth matches the Dovahkiin in speed, most evidence thus far has been directed towards AP/Durability, so Immeasurable for Neloth seems very unlikely.
I'm still completely willing to change my opinion on the topic, as I have many times in this post already, but right now I'm agreeing with the OP.
I'm still completely willing to change my opinion on the topic, as I have many times in this post already, but right now I'm agreeing with the OP.
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I suppose that we need more staff input here then. Are there enough such members listed in The Elder Scrolls verse page that can be asked, or should some reasonable and rational ones listed in the VS Battles Staff page be asked instead?
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I'm on the fence here as of now. I tend to prioritize having supporting feats rather than rating a character based entirely off of self statements, although at the same time I don't see why Neloth would be lying.
I suppose the main issue is that there are other characters who are confident of their superiority over the Dragonborn at various points in the game and voice that opinion, but we wouldn't scale them primarily because the end game rating is still a huge outlier for said people.
So I guess I'd like something outside of the Neloth's own statements to imply he can move at immeasurable speeds and destroy something of the scope of Nirn/a space time continuum.
I suppose the main issue is that there are other characters who are confident of their superiority over the Dragonborn at various points in the game and voice that opinion, but we wouldn't scale them primarily because the end game rating is still a huge outlier for said people.
So I guess I'd like something outside of the Neloth's own statements to imply he can move at immeasurable speeds and destroy something of the scope of Nirn/a space time continuum.
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Última is okay with Possibly Low 2-C
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Well, I did try to make it as comprehensive as possible.
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- Thread starter
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Ant, you shouldn't take priority over a few staff members saying they're okay with the rating without an explanation. There's overwhelming evidence that Neloth doesn't have any low 2-C nor immeasurable feat. The justification for scaling is also very weak, it involving Neloth merely speculating the hypothetical idea of what Miraak would be as an apprentice.
I also offered a compromise and I believe it's very fair.
I also offered a compromise and I believe it's very fair.
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Yeah, that compromise is more than fair. We have tons of profiles with "At least ____, Possibly ____" like that.
Even then I'm still skeptical of the possibly rating, as I've said Neloth is not the only person to claim superiority over the Dragonborn in the game, so I'd still like something, even small, that points to him being comparable. Outside of the mind resistance though, as Neloth isn't even sure what he did to prevent it and it isn't related to AP or Speed.
Even then I'm still skeptical of the possibly rating, as I've said Neloth is not the only person to claim superiority over the Dragonborn in the game, so I'd still like something, even small, that points to him being comparable. Outside of the mind resistance though, as Neloth isn't even sure what he did to prevent it and it isn't related to AP or Speed.
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At least 6-B, Possibly Low 2-C is a pretty wacky compromise. I'll see what Ultima thinks.
Should probably be At least High 6-A scaling from a Mid-Game Dovahkiin.
Should probably be At least High 6-A scaling from a Mid-Game Dovahkiin.
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Alright, that works for me.
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