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Nerfing Undertale God Tiers and deleting Annoying Dog

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StrymULTRA

StrymULTRA

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Without useless introductions, I think I should explain the main issue I found with the Undertale 2-Bs.

No, 2-B in itself is fine, the issue is the amount of universes being scaled to.

In the current cosmology blog, it's basically said that the Game World housing the timelines should be in "Ad Infinitum" range (which for people unfamiliar with the term is an infinitely expanding number that will always be finite despite constantly increasing with no end) because of the RESETs being able to be done infinitely, with the God tiers like Chara and Asriel always being able to influence it no matter what.

Well, the problem is that this is a big fat NLF, given that the timelines are generated only when a LOAD or RESET occurs. Ad Infinitum implies that the game world always increases constantly by itself, when it's not the case by what it's currently used, as it only increases in size when the SAVE File is used, rather than doing so by itself. By this logic also it technically implies that the Game World is 2-A in size given that it can physically hold whatever timeline is made even if spammed RESETs over and over infinitely, and that's definitely a bit too far fetched for my liking.

Because of this, and also the creator of the blog being deactivated from Fandom by self-request, I think I should step in with a new version.

This is the sandbox of the new blog, which has the following:
  • Same structure, but uses more scans and gives generally more context.
  • Gives more elaborated answers to the counter-arguments mostly commoned used against the notion of "RESETs = New timelines".
  • Also gives a new size for the cosmology.
For the latter, while a real number is unknown, the cosmology should still be 2-B due to:
And these are only specks of the total amount of times Flowey used the SAVE System, due to him having abused it to the point of doing every possible thing in the Underground and learning to memory every possible dialogue, making the total amount of LOADs and RESETs he performed far, far more than the aforementioned actions.

I think it should be safe to assume the total amount of timelines should be at least thousands following this.

If accepted, the sandbox will become a new blog (or page, idk) that will replace the current one.

Also there's a last thing I'd like to tackle on...

Annoying Dog deletion

What. Is. This!?

This profile is genuienly dumb, especially with this:

Note: While the Annoying Dog may be a representation of Toby Fox, the creator of Undertale and Deltarune, the character itself does not have evidence supporting him being behind the creation of either game's universe in the series' storyline.

This is completely false because of multiple factors:
No, I am not trying to make a 2-B/1-A Annoying Dog profile. Just that we should delete it until we have more concrete information to properly index its status as the creator of the verse, as right now it's just used for gags and has literally no combat showings or truly showcased abilities.

We have deleted Gaster because of this, we have deleted OPM God for a similar reason, so Annoying Dog should also go.
 
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If the number of SAVE and LOADs performed is an unknown large number, wouldn't it basically be uncountable?
 
McFriesGuy075 said:
If the number of SAVE and LOADs performed is an unknown large number, wouldn't it basically be uncountable?
Click to expand...
No.

Unknown is not necessairly equivalent to MWI degrees of multiverse, as you have no evidence Flowey has reset literally trillions of times or more, just that he did a lot.

We have to use low ends in order to avoid baseless high ratings that are high for the sake of being so, and there's no real evidence for Undertale's cosmology being that high besides assumptions.
 
StrymULTRA said:
No.

Unknown is not necessairly equivalent to MWI degrees of multiverse, as you have no evidence Flowey has reset literally trillions of times or more, just that he did a lot.

We have to use low ends in order to avoid baseless high ratings that are high for the sake of being so, and there's no real evidence for Undertale's cosmology being that high besides assumptions.
Click to expand...
Wasn't the argument that Chara could erase the world regardless of how many times you reset or loaded?
 
Omegabronic said:
Wasn't the argument that Chara could erase the world regardless of how many times you reset or loaded?
Click to expand...
This is where the NLF argument gets in.

It was never stated, we have no proof they can do that if the game contains a quadrillion timelines or similar big numbers.

It's basically an assumption that relies on game logic waaay too much.
 
Agree with Annoying Dog thingy, disagree with cosmology thingy, as you could have expected.

Btw, I don’t think that Japanese video is inconsistency but just a joke like here (“I coincidentally walk in front of his face every time he is on camera”, like c’mon now).
 
StrymULTRA said:
It's basically an assumption that relies on game logic waaay too much.
Click to expand...
To be fair, Undertale scaling is almost a 100% primarily based on game logic. So, I can see why we tend to have something so absurd but plausible at the same time. But, as it still stands; we should stick to a safe low-ball.
 
StrymULTRA said:
You... Have to elaborate on why though.
Click to expand...
I don’t, because I’m not a staff lol. Not like my vote matters anyways.

Also surprised that you asked for elaboration given that I already stated my view on how cosmology should be in Undertale to you some time ago
 
I made the Annoying Dog profile

The gist is that it shouldn't be deleted, it has actual (obvious/concrete) on-screen feats and appearances, something Gaster doesn't have. Also, the 'barking into the machine created the universe of Undertale' is a theory born from a gag, not actual lore. The scene is a reference to Undertale's creation, sure, but it doesn't mean that the dog literally made Undertale and Deltarune. The Undertale Dog profile was deleted due to being weird and the feat of making a game being too vague and gaggy. Same with the computer lab thing, it seems to be literally working on a game; (Seems like when the game's finished, you can go in...) -- and maybe I'm nitpicky, but Deltarune isn't finished yet, yet we can go in, implying that the game the Dog is working on isn't Deltarune

The profile was named "Annoying Dog (Deltarune)" when I uploaded it, but that seems to have been removed. Even if we don't have a profile for the Undertale one, I still think it's an important distinction. The profile is indexxing the Deltarune character specifically

It kills Kris, knocks around tables, destroys a key, explodes a door, hits Swatchlings... It has more feats than, say, the average enemy

He's indexed for what he is currently, a gag character with minor plot relevance. It has at least two major plot events, causing the traffic jam that leads Kris and Susie to the Cyber World and then later helping them through the key puzzle

It's one of my earliest profiles, so it could use a clean-up, but I really and truly don't think don't think it should be deleted.

If I may make a compromise, I suggest adding the "(Deltarune)" back into the title and removing the note, or at least tweaking it to be something more along the lines of; "While the Annoying Dog is a persona used by Toby Fox, the creator of Deltarune, the character itself does not have sufficient evidence supporting it being behind the universe's creation in-universe"

If we get lore later that confirms the Dog made Deltarune, we can do a CRT then, but for right now, the profile is based on what we see in-game, and has plenty to stand imo
 
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ShockingPsychic said:
I made the Annoying Dog profile

The gist is that it shouldn't be deleted, it has actual (obvious/concrete) on-screen feats and appearances, something Gaster doesn't have. Also, the 'barking into the machine created the universe of Undertale' is a theory born from a gag, not actual lore. The scene is a reference to Undertale's creation, sure, but it doesn't mean that the dog literally made Undertale and Deltarune. The Undertale Dog profile was deleted due to being weird and the feat of making a game being too vague and gaggy. Same with the computer lab thing, it seems to be literally working on a game; (Seems like when the game's finished, you can go in...) -- and maybe I'm nitpicky, but Deltarune isn't finished yet, yet we can go in, implying that the game the Dog is working on isn't Deltarune

The profile was named "Annoying Dog (Deltarune)" when I uploaded it, but that seems to have been removed. Even if we don't have a profile for the Undertale one, I still think it's an important distinction. The profile is indexxing the Deltarune character specifically

It kills Kris, knocks around tables, destroys a key, explodes a door, hits Swatchlings... It has more feats than, say, the average enemy

He's indexed for what he is currently, a gag character with minor plot relevance. It has at least two major plot events, causing the traffic jam that leads Kris and Susie to the Cyber World and then later helping them through the key puzzle

It's one of my earliest profiles, so it could use a clean-up, but I really and truly don't think don't think it should be deleted.

If I may make a compromise, I suggest adding the "(Deltarune)" back into the title and removing the note, or at least tweaking it to be something more along the lines of; "While the Annoying Dog is a persona used by Toby Fox, the creator of Deltarune, the character itself does not have sufficient evidence supporting it being behind the universe's creation in-universe"

If we get lore later that confirms the Dog made Deltarune, we can do a CRT then, but for right now, the profile is based on what we see in-game, and has plenty to stand imo
Click to expand...
I'll reply to this later as I'm at work rn, but a lot of these are just excuses.
 
ShockingPsychic said:
The gist is that it shouldn't be deleted, it has actual (obvious/concrete) on-screen feats and appearances, something Gaster doesn't have.
Click to expand...
All of these feats were done effortlessly and don't showcase the true extent of his powers.
ShockingPsychic said:
Also, the 'barking into the machine created the universe of Undertale' is a theory born from a gag, not actual lore. The scene is a reference to Undertale's creation, sure, but it doesn't mean that the dog literally made Undertale and Deltarune.
Click to expand...
You're literally ignoring a lot to do this claim:
  • The statement in the Kickstarter about the Dog being Toby and the creator of the game, as well as dreaming about the player getting his game.
  • The tweet releasing at the beginning of the game saying that a dog created the game.
AKA the true definition of cherry picking, either refute those, or don't make points made out of bad faith like this.
ShockingPsychic said:
The Undertale Dog profile was deleted due to being weird and the feat of making a game being too vague and gaggy.
Click to expand...
I recall you being generally against a LOT of Undertale's meta stuff like Flowey, Spamton and Jevil having 4th wall break, so I doubt this is made in good faith either.

This is an argument from tradition, I'm bringing new points, and you have to properly refute them, not "we already rejected it before so I'm not listening", come on.
ShockingPsychic said:
Same with the computer lab thing, it seems to be literally working on a game; (Seems like when the game's finished, you can go in...) -- and maybe I'm nitpicky, but Deltarune isn't finished yet, yet we can go in, implying that the game the Dog is working on isn't Deltarune
Click to expand...
This is indeed nitpicking nonsense, as Deltarune with the first two chapters is technically a working, complete game.

You cannot access the room until chapter 2 is done, it's blatantly a reference for the game's creation.
ShockingPsychic said:
He's indexed for what he is currently, a gag character with minor plot relevance. It has at least two major plot events, causing the traffic jam that leads Kris and Susie to the Cyber World and then later helping them through the key puzzle
Click to expand...
OPM God has big plot points too but that didn't save him from deletion either.

Rest is just fluff that's not worth to reply to or that's already countered.
 
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Omegabronic said:
Wasn't the argument that Chara could erase the world regardless of how many times you reset or loaded?
Click to expand...
Chara is only confirmed to erase the timeline and prevent you from resetting. Chara being the same as Asriel requires that Chara can True Reset which is just assumed because Frisk can. I think Chara should be tiered at Universal or Universal+.
 
Shugunou said:
Chara is only confirmed to erase the timeline and prevent you from resetting. Chara being the same as Asriel requires that Chara can True Reset which is just assumed because Frisk can. I think Chara should be tiered at Universal or Universal+.
Click to expand...
Too bad.

Besides this is technically derailing because this is only argue the degree of 2-B those characters have, if you wanna argue this you'd need to do a whole other CRT entirely.
 
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Shugunou said:
Chara is only confirmed to erase the timeline and prevent you from resetting. Chara being the same as Asriel requires that Chara can True Reset which is just assumed because Frisk can. I think Chara should be tiered at Universal or Universal+.
Click to expand...
Yeah this would be derailing as this isn't the point of the thread. Plus I highly recommend you not do this unless you want to get dog piled because we've gone over this exact line of debunking before and it got obliterated.
 
Speaking of that, it reminded me to add this to the section regarding Chara's stuff:

Last, but not least, Chara also tells says this in the scenario where a Genocide Route is completed multiple times:
  • ...
  • But.
  • You and I are not the same, are we?
  • This SOUL resonates with a strange feeling.
  • There is a reason you continue to recreate this world.
  • There is a reason you continue to destroy it.
  • You.
  • You are wracked with a perverted sentimentality.
  • Hmm.
  • I cannot understand these feelings anymore.
  • Despite this.
  • I feel obligated to suggest.
  • Should you choose to create this world once more.
  • Another path would be better suited.
  • Now, partner.
  • Let us send this world back into the abyss.
In short, they're directly telling that the "world" is encompassing all the paths the Player can choose, and said paths are within the world. Due to the all the context given above regarding the Determination users being able to take different paths in multiple timelines, Chara is reffering to the "world" as the whole of Undertale itself, rather than just the singular timeline they're currently in, something that is consistent with the file destruction that is seen at the end of the Genocide and Sans saying that "suddenly everything ends" after all the timeline jumps.

Regardless it's best to stop here, as how the characters scale to the cosmology is irrelevant here.
 
I agree with the cosmology CRT. I am unsure about deleting the Annoying Dog profile.
 
Uh, sure, agree on cosmology stuff
Neutral, leaning towards agree for Anoying Dog’s deletion. I think we should wait until we get a better idea of the nature of the character before making a profile for him.
 
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