Nights upgrade 2-B-2 Nightmarish Boogaloo

[ElixirBlue]

So, is this thread going to die because of Antvasima and DarkDragonMedeus's biases and abuse of staff power?

 

[ShakeResounding]

@Imagine Delete that. That has nothing to do with 2-B.

@DDM You barely debunked anything given in this thread. Most of your post is just quoting the previous thread and doing ad nauseam, which isn't anything for a "debunk" so much as it is restating your opinion. So, again, there is no reason that we should treat giant walls of texts as debunking an argument. So I stand by my position that we continue with what was agreed upon previously.

The amoumt of times we've had to tell you this is ridiculous, and honestly gets somewhat tiring when you simply repeat stuff you've said repeatedly that's already been talked about to death. Sera agrees with 2-B, AKM has hesitantly done so, and at this point, you're so focused on avoiding 2-B that you seem downright unreasonable here.

Mephistus' points, once agai, still stand tall.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

@Imagine Delete that. That has nothing to do with 2-B.
@DDM You barely debunked anything given in this thread. Most of your post is just quoting the previous thread and doing ad nauseam, which isn't anything for a "debunk" so much as it is restating your opinion. So, again, there is no reason that we should treat giant walls of texts as debunking an argument. So I stand by my position that we continue with what was agreed upon previously.

The amoumt of times we've had to tell you this is ridiculous, and honestly gets somewhat tiring when you simply repeat stuff you've said repeatedly that's already been talked about to death. Sera agrees with 2-B, AKM has hesitantly done so, and at this point, you're so focused on avoiding 2-B that you seem downright unreasonable here.

Mephistus' points, once agai, still stand tall.

i'll delete one but the other one is relevant because ant and medeus believe it's a reference to jung's theory and not the actual application. which I talked about in another thread, medeus didn't even know what jung's archetypes was until ultima and assaltwallfe came in.

 

[Antvasima]

So, is this thread going to die because of Antvasima and DarkDragonMedeus's biases and abuse of staff power?

Being biased would at least require having something against the franchise, which we don't. I barely even know about it, and we are not abusing staff power, we simply do not think that the supplied evidence seems to fit with our standards for this type of situation, as Medeus explained when he listed the results of our other thread about this subject above.

 

[Theuser789]

And nothing in the other thread contradicted the pro arguments, you need to look into them deeper instead of skimming and stop thinking that Medues is the standard, his ones weren't even accepted and one was refuted, and the same people who agreed with possibly 2-B also agreed with it

Also if you two barely know the verse then why are your views so relevant? Even more than people who actualy know?

People can easily be bias for things they don't know as well, especialy if it affects other series

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we try to follow our standards for not allowing something to be counted as a universe on loose grounds, whereas fans of a franchise might simply want to upgrade something that they like.

That said, I would appreciate if Sera and AKM could comment here again. If they state that they disagree with Medeus for good reasons, I will likely change my mind.

 

[Theuser789]

Well, we try to follow our standards for not allowing something to be counted as a universe on loose grounds, whereas fans of a franchise might simply want to upgrade something that they like.

Same standards that were questioned in the previous thread by staff, also I feel like you are not paying attention that much to the pro arguments, because it's way more than loose

I guess regular users arguments and they posting their opinions before is irrelevant the

 

[ShakeResounding]

All this talk of "standards standards standards" and "loose grounds" despite the evidence being so clear cut that it's giving me a headache to think that there can be this amount of stonewalling by a single staff member by ad nauseam from stuff that was already talked about. Which in turn leads to ad nauseam of the points that debunk them.

The moment you have to use ad nauseam with large walls of text that ultimately say nothing is the moment where the thread should've stopped and the accepted changes should've been applied.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

^ Facts, these things were already buried, it's not even running in circles any more or beating a dead horse, it's zombification.

 

[Antvasima]

That said, I would appreciate if Sera and AKM could comment here again. If they state that they disagree with Medeus for good reasons, I will likely change my mind.

It is best if you follow my instructions above if you wish for this to end. I am likely even less entertained by this than you are.

Also, I would appreciate if you skip the disrespectful snide comments. We are just trying to do our jobs of treating this verse according to our regular conventions.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Sera's stance seems to have been unmoved from the last time, since literally nothing new has been brought up from when she first gave the Low 2-C/2-B proposal. AKM is also likely unchanged in his stance, as he hesitantly agreed with the proposal. Nothing new has been added to disregard 2-B except ad nauseam. But sure, let's ask them again.

That wasn't a "disrespectful snide comment", I'm literally just telling you what's happening. That was no attack to the person, that was an attack on his arguments. Don't get that twisted.

 

[Mephistus]

Pretty much just popping by since nothing new was brought up via other mods input to say imagine is right on the nose here with the devs outright saying that they directly used Jung's cosmology in the interview, this site uses interviews before to justify sizes of objects and relative character tierings if they are self-creditory.

There is no vagueness to claim there and frankly that alone seals this.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

^ Me and Mephistus has been carrying these topics in this crt for a real while.

shake, elixir and user helped specify and clarify what it all means like in context and quality.

seraex and akm accepts possibly 2-B

it was already sealed tbh

 

[Antvasima]

That wasn't a "disrespectful snide comment", I'm literally just telling you what's happening. That was no attack to the person, that was an attack on his arguments. Don't get that twisted.

I wasn't referring to you.

 

[Antvasima]

I recurrently write things like that because I have limited time available, am trying to show support, and tend to communicate in such a manner.

 

[ElixirBlue]

I'm just saying, points Medeus is trying to refute, is what Medeus has supported for the Mario franchise.

 

[Antvasima]

How so?

 

[ElixirBlue]

But these details are not enough to be qualified as universes. Even if all of the above statements are put together

__________________________________________

The same thing is being done here, albeit on a lesser scale. Night Dimension, which is two things; it's bigger than every other dream world put together is the one and only thing with all the Universal statements such as mirroring the Waking World. Everything else just has a bunch of flowery language such as "Being called alternate Worlds" or "Are dreams becoming reality". Worlds and Dreams aren't static words with static meanings here, and becoming true or becoming reality simply means they came into existing. It simply means they become part of reality as opposed to being turned into an entire reality without further context.

Medeus has supported evidence equating dreams to universes but doesn't support the same with NIGHTS, despite flowery language being used.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the issue here is that given the nature of normal real world dreams being very limited in size, it should preferably require explicit evidence to count them as entire universes. I don't know enough about the context for Mario to say whether or not it is accurate to apply there.

Anyway, I think that somebody implied that there are official interviews for "Nights into Dreams" that state that dreams are actual universes. Can somebody quote that please?

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Sorry to derail everyone, but those are taken heavily out of context. The first image is me asking for the feat involving a starry sky for a thread I am making soon. That feat is going to be used as 4-A NOT 3-A or Low 2-C. The second image is them asking me for the scan if the Star Spirits created the Dream Depot. I was using that image to prove the Star Spirits created the Dream Depot. Dreams have been outright called universes such as in the manual or even in the game. I am not here to debate about NIGHTS or what the verdict will be, but I do want to clear this misconception.

 

[Mephistus]

Here's some more proof that the timelines for dreams are different and staying in there a moment can last "forever" compared to our timeline, again already stated by Wizeman to the kids.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bmPNdJXb...dMXKIA686mcVHjgjkGjuFwCHMYCw/s1600/RCO011.jpg

It's prolly on the other thread tbh 2nd already pointed out Wizeman was referring to the human's "world"/"waking world" as "a universe"/universe and "reality". There's like 3 interviews posted?

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_gkOSNnn...R_rOxqs1aM37IHf-RbYI4QCHMYCw/s1600/RCO008.jpg

World definition should mean universe in context if they refer to the kid's universe as just a "world" interchangebly.

I'm kinda unsure why you think that its vague if they are using the collective unconsciousness definition as per Jung himself to apply to dreams that everyone in the fiction is having at night. Dream size in that definition is universal.

 

[Antvasima]

@DatOneWeeb

Thank you for the clarification.

@Mephistus

I don't see how that scan proves anything about universal size.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

Sorry to derail everyone, but those are taken heavily out of context. The first image is me asking for the feat involving a starry sky for a thread I am making soon. That feat is going to be used as 4-A NOT 3-A or Low 2-C. The second image is them asking me for the scan if the Star Spirits created the Dream Depot. I was using that image to prove the Star Spirits created the Dream Depot. Dreams have been outright called universes such as in the manual or even in the game. I am not here to debate about NIGHTS or what the verdict will be, but I do want to clear this misconception.

those dream depot scans aren't even that solid, i've played mario party and the dreams are a part of the universe that's all we actually get, it merely indicates a universe containing some portions of space retained in a star. everytime it refers to dreams as something a part of the universe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phOl2OIRLIg&feature=youtu.be&t=3m24s and exists in outer space of the universe and just applies to the universe https://www.mariowiki.com/Dream_Depot. Not a separate existence even slightly and Worlds are consistently Islands, Pocket Realities, Planets, Galaxies and rarely universes in the ratio hence "dreamworld" doesn't cover or clarify anything and specification especially since dreams at best are star-multi solar system sized. NiGHTS dimension is consistently referring to universes and different planes and levels of existence simultaneously and consistently. sorry to derail but I want to clear up a misunderstanding.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'll right a long post later, but 99% of what you guys are saying come from baseless assumptions and even flat out misinterpreted information. But yes, the starry skies dimensions from Yoshi's story are simply a 4-A feat. Also, no; Dream World's definition in the manual is "Explore the wonders of The Universe." Future Dream alone is called The Universe. And no, Dream of the Universe means it's a dream where someone got to explore the universe, so a universe was created. It's the only dream with that description; however, the other dreams are still parallel to it, so they're still universes. Furthermore, the Dream Worlds being universes does not exclusively come from Mario Party 5; there's stuff from Super Mario RPG Legend of the Seven stars referring to Dreams as "Alternate Realities". Not to mention the world Culex came from was literally another Universe which also happens to be a Dream World. There's also statements from Dream Team about each Dream World being infinite in size, and in Super Paper Mario, there are mentions of Dreams being alternate universes.

I'm just getting it out of the way, but you guys desperately need to stop bringing up Mario on these threads because Dino Ranger Black said it best on other threads. To quote him, he's tired of the same people who have literally no knowledge or context on the verse purposely trying to constantly repeat the nothing new arguments with no motive other than preference of franchises. The difference is that in one verse, individual dream worlds actually have multiple universal statements, while here, they're just called worlds and not universes. And only the one thing that contains all dreams is called a universe. Also, the Jung Theory statements as well as the Conceptual Manipulation topics are irrelevant regarding the tiers.

I'll come back later to elaborate much more as I don't have enough time before I have to go to work.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

@DatOneWeeb
Thank you for the clarification.

@Mephistus

I don't see how that scan proves anything about universal size.

Antvasma you yourself wouldn't understand it because you're not too knowledgeable of the 3-A to 2-B stuff and you yourself said you're not savvy when it comes to sonic, you're beginner. I'm not gonna undermine you but because of your not understanding of the series you may not recognize their terms or cosmological background that would also lead to misinformation on either side but you're being misinformed by medeus.

 

[Theuser789]

Let's stop derrailing about Mario, first is this stonewalling circular arguments, now is diferent franchises comparassions, I know we might be frustated but let's not do the same things that we complain about

 

[Antvasima]

@Medeus

Are you willing to ask some other staff members, including Sera and AKM, to help us out here? It seems necessary in order to not go in circles forever.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

^ Yes please.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

@Medeus
Are you willing to ask some other staff members, including Sera and AKM, to help us out here? It seems necessary in order to not go in circles forever.

Didn't Sera already stated that she doesn't want to comment in Sonicverse threads?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I contacted via Discord AKM Sama, but he hasn't responded yet. And Sera probably is tired of dealing with stuff; I could ask Matt however.

@TheUser, Mehpistus and Imagine are the ones who brought it up, so I was stepping in to say not to derail it.

 

[Theuser789]

They already stated their opinions, but sure, whatever

 

[ShakeResounding]

Matthew isn't an administrator anymore, which is exactly the kind of stsff we need for this. I tried getting non-Admins on a thread and I was told I needed Admins.

 

[Mephistus]

I mean im planning on making a downgrade thread for a couple verses brought up in this thread, mario included if the word dream world/world meaning is getting treated as variable for no reason here and yet others its treated as its not variable like it could mean planet when visuals don't back up individual worlds nor are the individual dream worlds called "parallel" outright or interchangable like here with using "another". Other series was brought up first by you too....which derailed. Regardless I think that parallels between other verses helps point out why this case is pretty muddled, regarding since we had to make a standards thread.

Idk that they call sets of dimensions as worlds and a universe sized dimension gets called a world is something that needs to be repeated multiple times is making this circular. Being described in the same terms as a universe is pretty evident here.

Burden of proof is not fulfilled to think they are referring to some lesser term for world than what is given with the example with the human's universe sized dimension, full stop.

Jung's thoughts do apply here to determine if single dreams are a universe if they said that they use his term collective unconsciousness, lore from interviews gets used all the time.

Worlds and Dreams aren't static words with static meanings here, and becoming true or becoming reality simply means they came into existing. It simply means they become part of reality as opposed to being turned into an entire reality without further context.

That Wizeman refers to the humans dimension as "reality" is all the context needed to confirm that the reference for size to a universe is there for each dream. Not to mention that you are pulling "part" of reality from nowhere in the text and acting like reality doesn't use our real life "reality" as a basis here for the interview quote.

"Dreams are usually closer to reality, and bear more of a resemblance to one's inner psyche and subconscious."

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

jung considers dreams universes and things akin to plato's forms.

 

[Antvasima]

Discussion moderators are fine as well, and Matthew can help out if he wishes.

This is technically not a Sonic thread, so I do not know if Sera wants to avoid it or not.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Idk that they call sets of dimensions as worlds and a universe sized dimension gets called a world is something that needs to be repeated multiple times is making this circular. Being described in the same terms as a universe is pretty evident here.

Burden of proof is not fulfilled to think they are referring to some lesser term for world than what is given with the example with the human's universe sized dimension, full stop.

Jung's thoughts do apply here to determine if single dreams are a universe if they said that they use his term collective unconsciousness, lore from interviews gets used all the time.

Worlds and Dreams aren't static words with static meanings here, and becoming true or becoming reality simply means they came into existing. It simply means they become part of reality as opposed to being turned into an entire reality without further context.

That Wizeman refers to the humans dimension as "reality" is all the context needed to confirm that the reference for size to a universe is there for each dream. Not to mention that you are pulling "part" of reality from nowhere in the text and acting like reality doesn't use our real life "reality" as a basis here for the interview quote.

"Dreams are usually closer to reality, and bear more of a resemblance to one's inner psyche and subconscious."

This. Literally just this.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I would prefer more staff input regarding that post.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

smh bro, sorry to be a bit vulgar but that's what we've been doing and have done, most staff agrees even some disagreed earlier fam.

 

[Antvasima]

We need more than brief or ambivalent comments. You need to ask for input from both them and other staff members.

 

[TheImagineBreaker121212]

that's what we did though........ it's the staff that's not doing their part, reasons be damned we did what we was asked to do and now they need to step in through the door given, a hobby is not a staff is, it's a employee acting in a job in a particular set, business, company or organization, they may not see it that way but that's the truth, I can understand taking a break from toxicity and the like but....... 5 months? really? and still going strong. I'm still proposing an option of adding more viable members/recruits as staff. I can be responsible if I contributed to this and I said i'm sorry but seriously, looking at this stuff here, sega and/or sonic won't be getting good revisions anytime soon if this is the plan.