Ninjago Lifting Strength Changes

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Just a quick CRT on Lifting Strength since some things bothered me for a while.

Non-Top Tiers (Downgrade)​

Basically, we have virtually every single profile rated as Class T in Lifting Strength. The reasoning is that they scale to Cole, who can "move mountains" and is "as strong as mountain". But this has some issues:

• First scan talks about Cole needing to find "balance" and "calmness" to be able to move a mountain.
• Second scan talks about how he can create mountains, not just move.
• Third scan talks about how he can "build" mountains.
• "As strong as mountain" seems to be metaphorical than literal, since it proceeds to say that he is "as steady as boulder".

I.e., only first one says he can move them, and that requires special conditions. Second and third are just about being able to create them, which makes sense given that he is an Elemental Master of Earth. This leads me to thinking that the first one is likely referring about him moving mountains being just via powers as Master of Earth.

Saying that Cole can casually move mountains would also be odd since Lloyd, in his Ultimate Spinjitzu Master form, initially struggled to move them, needing some time to eventually learn how to do that by channeling his balance (weirdly like Cole in those statements), despite being obviously far superior to Cole. Moving mountains is also portrayed as something that exclusive to First Spinjitzu Master does, who is far superior to Cole too. Given that all these statements come from the guildebooks, I give priority to how the series portrays it.

With this, Ninjas should go back to scaling to this calc. This is also wrongly labeled as Class M, although it is Class K (235 206.99 kg). This is also consistent with the fact that Emperor Garmadon has Class M telekinesis which can completely restrain and tear apart Mr. E, who is comparable to Ninjas in LS. So all of non-top tier characters get downgraded to Class K, except Emperor Garmadon who becomes Class K physically, Class M with Telekinesis.

Top Tiers (Upgrade)​

I believe that Top Tiers should upscale from this Class Z feat, where Wojira lifts the Moon into the air after creating it. We already have Nya Merged with the Sea scaling to this, and she is not Top Tier of the verse. So upscaling characters who are portrayed as the most powerful characters in verse should work.

Characters affected:

• Source Dragons
• Overlord in all Low 1-C forms
• First Spinjitzu Master
• Lloyd in USM form (his struggle to move mountains was more of a skill issue than anything)

That should also be only via powers. I don't know why they would scale to it physically. Physically, I believe that they can upscale from Garmadon's Class M telekinesis feat, since such powerful character shouldn't really be completely restrained by telekinesis of someone who is portrayed as far weaker compared to them. If this sounds as too much of a stretch, they would just upscale from Class K.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Nya's feats of moving water from an entire rainstorm, her creating Tsunamis, Mindaro being equal to a titanic cloud, Cole's DR S3 Source Dragon body feat and Euphrasia's Cloud Kingdom feat can all serves as back or replacement for the current Class T scaling but only need calcs. TP Cole's strength is also explicitly stated to reach mountainious height in a in-universe mainline canon book, and the first scan talking about Balance doesn't really disprove anything anyways

For the god tiers, the SDs have a direct showing of becoming as big as a mountain, so they shouldn't be affected by any downscales

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Nya's feats of moving water from an entire rainstorm, her creating Tsunamis, Mindaro being equal to a titanic cloud, Cole's DR S3 Source Dragon body feat and Euphrasia's Cloud Kingdom feat can all serves as back or replacement for the current Class T scaling but only need calcs.

We can do a separate CRT and discussion when calcs will be done and evaluated.

TP Cole's strength is also explicitly stated to reach mountainious height in a in-universe mainline canon book, and the first scan talking about Balance doesn't really disprove anything anyways

Another book clarifies that he needs to tap into the balance to reach such level of strength, and it's still via secondary source which directly contradicts primary source. So unless we get consistent Class T stuff (feats & calcs) in-series, it wouldn't really work.

For the god tiers, the SDs have a direct showing of becoming as big as a mountain, so they shouldn't be affected by any downscales

This is via Size Manipulation though? And for the strongest characters in the series.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Another book clarifies that he needs to tap into the balance to reach such level of strength, and it's still via secondary source which directly contradicts primary source. So unless we get consistent Class T stuff (feats & calcs) in-series, it wouldn't really work.

The series does not treat moving mountains as something FSM exclusive, and the Ninjas using their powers proprely does rely on concentration to begin with. It doesn't indicate he can't use those level of power normally

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

The series does not treat moving mountains as something FSM exclusive

It does. Otherwise Garmadon stating “you can move mountains” as a hype-up statement from his powers would be like saying “you can lift 10 kg” to an average person.

and the Ninjas using their powers proprely does rely on concentration to begin with.

If LS is activation-based, it should be indexed on profiles. But those all really come from secondary sources and I didn’t notice anything that suggests that in series.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

It does. Otherwise Garmadon stating “you can move mountains” as a hype-up statement from his powers would be like saying “you can lift 10 kg” to an average person.

This is more about USM Lloyd mastering his abilities than a set limit for FSM. Much weaker characters have perfomed feats that scales near or far above Class T like Nadakhan throught Gravis powers

If LS is activation-based, it should be indexed on profiles.

Kai needed to focus to proprely use his powers when he was depowered, they have entire teachings by Wu about why balance is important for their training, Wu was also talking about it to Cole to MOTM and we have an entire mini-episode dedicated about the Ninjas and being balanced implying that the Ninjas being unbalance is only them being unfocused/distracted

Lloyd: I think I've got it. (He leaps ahead, but leaps away to dodge the Lava Monster's attack.) Now what? Giant lava monster. Sure, why not?

(Cole looks at his teammates in danger and the enemies surrounding them.)

Cole: It's too much! I have to ... find... balance.

(He has a flashback about his parents dancing in the dance class. He then begins to fight, swiftly dodging all the attacks and destroying the lava monster.)

Cole: I can't believe that worked. Okay, dragons. You're next. Let's go! (He prepares to attack, only for the dragons to lick him playfully.) Whoa! Huh? So, we're friends? Okay. And I need your help. Can I get a lift? (The dragons carry the ninja through the portal.) Let's get out of here! We need to find Master Wu!

But those all really come from secondary sources and I didn’t notice anything that suggests that in series.

Do we have a reason to dissmiss the Lego website explanation on Elemental Powers?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

This is more about USM Lloyd mastering his abilities than a set limit for FSM.

This is why I proposed Class Z? It was never an argument that it’s a set limit for Golden Power? The point is that it is seen as exclusively Golden Power feat, not something regular people can do. Since, again, it would sound to Lloyd like “you can move up 10 kg”.

Much weaker characters have perfomed feats that scales near or far above Class T like Nadakhan throught Gravis powers

He doesn’t use Gravis powers lol, Djinnjago doesn’t fall the moment he doesn’t touch his Sword, besides we see no color effect either.

Kai needed to focus to proprely use his powers when he was depowered

Except that’s, well, depowered.

they have entire teachings by Wu about why balance is important for their training

It is more for initial mastering rather than literally tier-switching technique.

Wu was also talking about it to Cole to MOTM and we have an entire mini-episode dedicated about the Ninjas and being balanced implying that the Ninjas being unbalance is only them being unfocused/distracted

“Unknown normally, Star level via focusing”

Do we have a reason to dissmiss the Lego website explanation on Elemental Powers?

Yeah, series do not show nor support such a technique of tier switching LS/stats overall based on how focused one is.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

He doesn’t use Gravis powers lol, Djinnjago doesn’t fall the moment he doesn’t touch his Sword, besides we see no color effect either.

This helps my point regardless

Except that’s, well, depowered.

It is more for initial mastering rather than literally tier-switching technique.

This does not imply tier switching. They mastered their powers to the point where they can use their powers casually

“Unknown normally, Star level via focusing”

What? How is Cole being calm when using his element proprely imply a tier gap?

Yeah, series do not show nor support such a technique of tier switching LS/stats overall based on how focused one is.

The series does not imply the Ninjas are unfocused when using their powers to begin with. Its a common thing in fiction for characters to be able to do things that requires them focusing power into something casually

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

This helps my point regardless

…I don’t see how?

This does not imply tier switching. They mastered their powers to the point where they can use their powers casually

You are saying that balance makes them able to access higher levels, as scans imply. Then you’d need to index that in the profile.

What? How is Cole being calm when using his element proprely imply a tier gap?

That’s exactly my point, pal.

The series does not imply the Ninjas are unfocused when using their powers to begin with. Its a common thing in fiction for characters to be able to do things that requires them focusing power into something casually

Then consider a matchup where an opponent has hax that makes him sloppy. Or condition is that they are both unfocused and extremely casual. Profile will be unable to index that if your proposition is true.

But really, idea of magically acquiring higher power by just focusing, and then saying it’s actually casual, sounds like breaking of logic on top of another breaking of logic.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

You are saying that balance makes them able to access higher levels, as scans imply. Then you’d need to index that in the profile.

That’s exactly my point, pal.

Then consider a matchup where an opponent has hax that makes him sloppy. Or condition is that they are both unfocused and extremely casual. Profile will be unable to index that if your proposition is true.

But really, idea of magically acquiring higher power by just focusing, and then saying it’s actually casual, sounds like breaking of logic on top of another breaking of logic.

Nah. Im saying that's something the Ninjas do casually, not a need of higher power. This is kinda like Shinobis needing to focus Chakra on their foot to walk on water, but they can do it casually. Also, the moutaingnous height scan technically comes from something a character from the show wrote in-verse

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Idk, if balancing was just being casual, then what’s the point of teaching it. I feel like it’s just about being balanced to fight better and use techniques at fullest rather than having an LS amp.

Also you never replied to this:

This is why I proposed Class Z? It was never an argument that it’s a set limit for Golden Power? The point is that it is seen as exclusively Golden Power feat, not something regular people can do. Since, again, it would sound to Lloyd like “you can move up 10 kg”.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Idk, if balancing was just being casual, then what’s the point of teaching it. I feel like it’s just about being balanced to fight better and use techniques at fullest rather than having an LS amp.

Its casual to them due to them training for it

Also you never replied to this:

Weaker characters can pull feats close or above that magnitude, so it should not be regarded as a GP exlusive feat. It would be easier for me to argue more if the feats I named were calced anyways

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Its casual to them due to them training for it

And it is stated where exactly?

Weaker characters can pull feats close or above that magnitude, so it should not be regarded as a GP exlusive feat.

There are no valid feats I’m seeing here, only dubious secondary sources that are automatically ignored if they contradict the series.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

And it is stated where exactly?

Its quite self-evident that their training about anything serves as skills they keep for the future

There are no valid feats I’m seeing here, only dubious secondary sources that are automatically ignored if they contradict the series.

Nadakhan lifting large parts of the Continent to recreate Djinnjago? The Golden Weapons being used to create and move the continental mass that make up the planet? Even the Wojira feat used to make USM Class Z contradicts the idea that moving mountains = GP exclusive ability

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Nadakhan lifting large parts of the Continent to recreate Djinnjago?

Which scales to no-one in base?

The Golden Weapons being used to create and move the continental mass that make up the planet?

Who says they explicitly moved it rather than created? Besides they only helped FSM who was unknowingly strong at that time.

Even the Wojira feat used to make USM Class Z contradicts the idea that moving mountains = GP exclusive ability

Wojira is just one of the most powerful beings in the verse. She is literally in legends. Saying “you can lift 2000 kg, something ancient dragon can do too” is not same as saying “you can lift 2 kg, btw you in base can do that too and basically any bum in the verse as well”.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Which scales to no-one in base?

By your CRT, this should not be a possibility for Nadakhan

Who says they explicitly moved it rather than created?

The flashback visually shows us the land being moved up

Besides they only helped FSM who was unknowingly strong at that time.

Kid FSM was not a top tier at the time and was inferior to Wojira. There's also a statement saying it was the Scythe of Quake who mainly moved the landmass, while the other GWs aided in creating other part of Ninjago

Wojira is just one of the most powerful beings in the verse. She is literally in legends. Saying “you can lift 2000 kg, something ancient dragon can do too” is not same as saying “you can lift 2 kg, btw you in base can do that too and basically any bum in the verse as well”.

FSM is infinitely higher than Wojira who does not even scratch the top 10 of the verse

This is all ignoring other feats who are likely Class T but needs calcs

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

By your CRT, this should not be a possibility for Nadakhan

Not really. By “exclusively” I meant something that majority doesn’t have. Otherwise by same logic Overlord would not have it either, which is nonsense. I think the intent was clear.

The flashback visually shows us the land being moved up

It looks like just creation to me.

Kid FSM was not a top tier at the time and was inferior to Wojira.

Wojira is Class Z via TK, and Kid FSM is unknowingly inferior to her, which means he can pretty much still be superior to Lloyd and Ninjas, who are way below Wojira.

There's also a statement saying it was the Scythe of Quake who mainly moved the landmass, while the other GWs aided in creating other part of Ninjago

Then it’s special to Scythe and it will get a separate rating once calced or agreed upon in a separate thread. This thread is more about majority and current problems.

FSM is infinitely higher than Wojira who does not even scratch the top 10 of the verse

That’s AP wise.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Not really. By “exclusively” I meant something that majority doesn’t have. Otherwise by same logic Overlord would not have it either, which is nonsense. I think the intent was clear.

My point is that non God Tiers can pull off great LS feats

Then it’s special to Scythe and it will get a separate rating once calced or agreed upon in a separate thread. This thread is more about majority and current problems.

The Scythe of Quake's continent feat is already accepted, and why doesn't it scale to Cole since it channels his power?

That’s AP wise.

The point remains that inverse, Wojira is currently not a god tier like character yet can create the Moon. Btw, the SDs and those scaling to the Cores should also obtain Immeasurable LS via being able to prevent the Realms from smashing into one and another

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

My point is that non God Tiers can pull off great LS feats

My point is that every single person in the verse being able to perform something that is said to be as a hype up to Golden Lloyd (whose current version can pull up the same feat according to you LOL) is nonsense.

The Scythe of Quake's continent feat is already accepted, and why doesn't it scale to Cole since it channels his power?

It scales AP-wise. We have no LS-based UES here (and it would be illogical, since Lloyd does not stomp Ninjas LS wise).

The point remains that inverse, Wojira is currently not a god tier like character yet can create the Moon

She is not the absolute strongest in terms of AP. But she is pretty special and far more above the baseline, being above many villains and Ninjas by a big shot. And this is LS via TK we are talking about here.

Btw, the SDs and those scaling to the Cores should also obtain Immeasurable LS via being able to prevent the Realms from smashing into one and another

Dunno about that, since it'd make virtually any merging/demerging feat an LS one, so I'd like a staff input for this in a different CRT.
Tho I do support that personally.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

My point is that every single person in the verse being able to perform something that is said to be as a hype up to Golden Lloyd (whose current version can pull up the same feat according to you LOL) is nonsense.

That's more of a skill thing than a hype of Lloyd's power when looking at current Ninjago. Also, if we follow this logic, how does it make more sense of a Djinn that's massively inferior to USM to be able to perform something higher than Class T? This is getting nitpicky

It scales AP-wise. We have no LS-based UES here (and it would be illogical, since Lloyd does not stomp Ninjas LS wise).

So Lloyd should just upscales above Cole's LS. And given that Cole scales to the Earth Power used in the GW, he should scale to this

She is not the absolute strongest in terms of AP. But she is pretty special and far more above the baseline, being above many villains and Ninjas by a big shot. And this is LS via TK we are talking about here.

She did create it throught shooting her lightning at it and moving it up

 

[Lloydblitzed]

I also think that making a whole new CRT just for new calcs that can potentially be used as counter args for the OP is kinda reduant. We should get them calced before continuing the LS stuff for mid tiers, otherwise the counter-args are kinda limited

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

That's more of a skill thing than a hype of Lloyd's power when looking at current Ninjago.

Skill? In what world is this hype up statement a skill?

Also, if we follow this logic, how does it make more sense of a Djinn that's massively inferior to USM to be able to perform something higher than Class T? This is getting nitpicky

I.... literally explained this in all of posts above.

Let's make it very clear since these mental gymnastics in hopes to twist this straightforward logic are becoming quite annoying.

What if EVERYONE is Class T:​

The statement makes no sense since basically everyone can do that, even less powerful Lloyd or Sensei Garmadon. The dialogue would have needed to go like this (added more humor):

Garmadon: You've only scratched the surface! You have the potential to move mountains. Power of the First Spinjitzu Master!
Lloyd: But father! Even without Golden Power, I can move mountains. With my bare hands. Even you can move mountains. Everyone in this damn verse can move continents! This is such a bum feat!

Essentially, it will be like me telling you "You have such potential, you can move a 2 kg chair. Power of the strongest lifters!"

What if most characters are below Class T:​

This makes sense since now it does not seem to be something that an average person can do, but only selective powerful characters, even if below Golden Power. The statement implies that moving mountains is special, that GP users could do it, but it doesn't mean that only GP users can do it. It just means that it's special and Lloyd can achieve this specialness. Doesn't work if it's what literally everyone can do.

Not sure if I can do this any more clear, so if you still insist on your points, I guess we'll just have to stay with our own arguments and opinions.

So Lloyd should just upscales above Cole's LS. And given that Cole scales to the Earth Power used in the GW, he should scale to this

You... literally ignored my points. Neat-o.

She did create it throught shooting her lightning at it and moving it up

Yeah. Not sure how it correlates to current discussion, but thanks for explaining what is on the page, I guess.

I also think that making a whole new CRT just for new calcs that can potentially be used as counter args for the OP is kinda reduant. We should get them calced before continuing the LS stuff for mid tiers, otherwise the counter-args are kinda limited

We treat feats that are not calced as not having any strength unless they are calced. Unless they are very self-evident (i.e. bombing or lifting a planet), which is not the case here.

Do actual work, get them approved, and get your Class T if you literally have several Class T calcs for base characters.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Skill? In what world is this hype up statement a skill?

FSM has the power to move even continental mass. And his ability to move a mountain was Garmadon talking about the abilities Lloyd possess but doesn't know about.

I.... literally explained this in all of posts above.

Let's make it very clear since these mental gymnastics in hopes to twist this straightforward logic are becoming quite annoying.

What if EVERYONE is Class T:​

The statement makes no sense since basically everyone can do that, even less powerful Lloyd or Sensei Garmadon. The dialogue would have needed to go like this (added more humor):

Essentially, it will be like me telling you "You have such potential, you can move a 2 kg chair. Power of the strongest lifters!"

What if most characters are below Class T:​

This makes sense since now it does not seem to be something that an average person can do, but only selective powerful characters, even if below Golden Power. The statement implies that moving mountains is special, that GP users could do it, but it doesn't mean that only GP users can do it. It just means that it's special and Lloyd can achieve this specialness. Doesn't work if it's what literally everyone can do.

Not sure if I can do this any more clear, so if you still insist on your points, I guess we'll just have to stay with our own arguments and opinions.

See last reply. I won't waste more time replying when the other stuff requires calcs and can't be used as of rn

You... literally ignored my points. Neat-o.

You never explained why this would mean Lloyd stomp the Ninjas LS wise

We treat feats that are not calced as not having any strength unless they are calced. Unless they are very self-evident (i.e. bombing or lifting a planet), which is not the case here.

Do actual work, get them approved, and get your Class T if you literally have several Class T calcs for base characters.

Sure, but wasting 2 months just to redo the CRT sounds unnecessary

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

FSM has the power to move even continental mass.

Noice, I'm proposing Class Z FSM btw, if you didn't notice.

And his ability to move a mountain was Garmadon talking about the abilities Lloyd possess but doesn't know about.

Yeah, he doesn't know he can move mountains although he does that in base.

See last reply.

Genuinely dunno how it counters anything I said but you do you.

You never explained why this would mean Lloyd stomp the Ninjas LS wise

Since you are proposing UES for LS too, it seems.

Sure, but wasting 2 months just to redo the CRT sounds unnecessary

Huh.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Noice, I'm proposing Class Z FSM btw, if you didn't notice.

Yeah, he doesn't know he can move mountains although he does that in base.

*He chainscales to someone

Genuinely dunno how it counters anything I said but you do you.

This is clearly not a counter. Im saying I will address this after the calcs are made

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Ah ok then

 

[AigerTheKing]

Nya is the litteral embodiment of the Sea, and and should scale to the weight of all the water surface on Earth, which is 1.4e+18 kg (which is Class Z). Wojira, Skylor and Zane (with Ice) were able to restrain her, so I think Class Z should probably just be used to replace everything as whole

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Nya is the litteral embodiment of the Sea, and and should scale to the weight of all the water surface on Earth, which is 1.4e+18 kg (which is Class Z).

She never actually transforms into all of the giant sea even once. She just uses either her humanoid form or dragon form. So this doesn’t really help, assuming that Nya can do that sounds a bit NLF-y.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Nya is the litteral embodiment of the Sea, and and should scale to the weight of all the water surface on Earth, which is 1.4e+18 kg (which is Class Z). Wojira, Skylor and Zane (with Ice) were able to restrain her, so I think Class Z should probably just be used to replace everything as whole

Or....we can just scale off Chima throught the Forbidden Five and the Shatterspin Comic cast, but Im still calcing my stuff first

 

[DavidTPPM]

Honestly if mountain moving was this hyped it feels pretty damn self explanatory and undeniable that it's a pretty top tier feat and not something anyone can do.

All the counter argument attempts just look like mental gymnastics in an attempt to contradict the narrative

 

[YmTheSuper]

Orange makes the most sense to me.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Bump

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

OP looks fine from a glance.

 

[Imaginym]

Having been asked to comment here, & having read the opening post (Which, on a personal note, to my dismay, spoilered me.), it seems reasonable from a simple reading of the opening post, albeit, with my limited knowledge of the series, the opening post of the thread seems reasonable, but if there are points against it folks feel should be addressed, I would very much like to have them brought up to me.
Thank you very much.
I hope this helps.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

(Which, on a personal note, to my dismay, spoilered me.)

Oops, sorry. I wasn’t sure if it was you who wanted to watch the series in the future. I will remember that and try not to spoiler anything to you with my CRTs from now on

it seems reasonable from a simple reading of the opening post, albeit, with my limited knowledge of the series, the opening post of the thread seems reasonable, but if there are points against it folks feel should be addressed, I would very much like to have them brought up to me.

Well, it was brought up in this thread that there are many feats that could place them higher, but they have no approved calculations for now, so I suggested to apply this and handle those feats in a separate CRT once calculations are done and approved.

Thank you both for your evaluations!

 

[Imaginym]

Oops, sorry. I wasn’t sure if it was you who wanted to watch the series in the future. I will remember that and try not to spoiler anything to you with my CRTs from now on

Thank you very much.
IIRC, the furthest I've seen is episode 13 of Rise of the Snakes. I've not yet found time/opportunity/the chance to watch further, though I do look forward to it. Sorry.

Well, it was brought up in this thread that there are many feats that could place them higher, but they have no approved calculations for now, so I suggested to apply this and handle those feats in a separate CRT once calculations are done and approved.

Good to know. Besides your approval, do you have any opinion about this matter, @DarkDragonMedeus , given your inputting here?

Thank you both for your evaluations!

Happy to help!

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Having been asked to comment here, & having read the opening post (Which, on a personal note, to my dismay, spoilered me.)

That sucks, but trust me, a spoiler never hits the same as seeing it happen. You’ll still enjoy it.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Op makes sense to me.