Okatavia´s Durability.

[Mikoto_Misaka231]

She was blown up by Moemura´s explosives in the previous timelines BUT, the 100th Timeline, Kyoko needed to sacrifice herself in order to defeat her. (7-C)


Shouldn´t her durability be increased to City Level?

 

[Aparajita]

Shouldn´t her durability be increased to City Level?

Sounds reasonable, but idk the character.

 

[Mikoto_Misaka231]

Shouldn´t her durability be increased to City Level?

Sounds reasonable, but idk the character.

Sayaka Miki´s Witch Form.

 

[Mikoto_Misaka231]

I really can´t believe they put Oriko AND Miki a whole tier below the other Megucas

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if Kyoko is 7-C and needed to use a suicide attack to defeat Sayaka, then Sayaka should probably get the "At least 7-C" rating.

However, there are no particular justifications for Kyoko's statistics, so the logic could work in reverse as well. That is, maybe Sayaka is the one with correct tiers that Kyoko should be scaled from?

 

[SomebodyData]

Well, if Kyoko is 7-C and needed to use a suicide attack to defeat Sayaka, then Sayaka should probably get the "At least 7-C" rating.
However, there are no particular justifications for Kyoko's statistics, so the logic could work in reverse as well. That is, maybe Sayaka is the one with correct tiers that Kyoko should be scaled from?

Kyoko's rating comes from the fact that she was only a bit weaker than Mami Tomoe who caused town level destruction in Rebellion useing her Tiro Finale. Not to mention her suicide technique is leagues of above any Tiro Finale.

Also shes Building level since all the attacks cut through her completely, but Kyoko wasn't able to kill her due to lack of aoe and Okatavia's massive regen (regenerating from being torn by Ave Maria, only to not show any lack of organs or damage right after getting out of it).

 

[Antvasima]

All right, so you think that they should stay on their current tiers?

 

[SomebodyData]

All right, so you think that they should stay on their current tiers?

Yes, both Oriko and Sayaka are described as the weakest magical girls, which helps explain the tier difference more.

 

[Mikoto_Misaka231]

Well, if Kyoko is 7-C and needed to use a suicide attack to defeat Sayaka, then Sayaka should probably get the "At least 7-C" rating.
However, there are no particular justifications for Kyoko's statistics, so the logic could work in reverse as well. That is, maybe Sayaka is the one with correct tiers that Kyoko should be scaled from?

Kyoko's rating comes from the fact that she was only a bit weaker than Mami Tomoe who caused town level destruction in Rebellion useing her Tiro Finale. Not to mention her suicide technique is leagues of above any Tiro Finale.
Also shes Building level since all the attacks cut through her completely, but Kyoko wasn't able to kill her due to lack of aoe and Okatavia's massive regen (regenerating from being torn by Ave Maria, only to not show any lack of organs or damage right after getting out of it).

Why is Homura 7-C then?

 

[Mikoto_Misaka231]

All right, so you think that they should stay on their current tiers?

Yes, both Oriko and Sayaka are described as the weakest magical girls, which helps explain the tier difference more.

Exept Oriko defeated Homura in canon.


And again, Sayaka endured Kyoko´s major attack, she is 7-C.

 

[SomebodyData]

Why is Homura 7-C then?

During her fight with Walpurgis Nacht she created town sized craters and being considered an equal to Mami Tomoe, I believe

 

[Mikoto_Misaka231]

Why is Homura 7-C then?

During her fight with Walpurgis Nacht she created town sized craters and being considered an equal to Mami Tomoe, I believe

Two things.


1.-Homura lost to Mami all three times they fought.

First.-When Mami snaps.

Second.-Before Charlotte (Was tied up)

Third.-Rebellion (Sayaka had to save Homura)


2.-Homura lost to Oriko.

 

[SomebodyData]

Two things.

1.-Homura lost to Mami all three times they fought.

First.-When Mami snaps.

Second.-Before Charlotte (Was tied up)

Third.-Rebellion (Sayaka had to save Homura)

2.-Homura lost to Oriko.

1a.You mean when she suprised attacked her?

2a. You mean when she still suprised attacked her?

3a. True, however the reason is likely cockiness (ie not expecting the ribbon trap, which doesnt influence ap at all by the way)

1b. Against a person with faster speeds and pre-cog you usually do (not to mention this is 4th timeline homura (still doesnt have much experience)

 

[Mikoto_Misaka231]

Two things.

1.-Homura lost to Mami all three times they fought.

First.-When Mami snaps.

Second.-Before Charlotte (Was tied up)

Third.-Rebellion (Sayaka had to save Homura)

2.-Homura lost to Oriko.

1a.You mean when she suprised attacked her?
2a. You mean when she still suprised attacked her?

3a. True, however the reason is likely cockiness (ie not expecting the ribbon trap, which doesnt influence ap at all by the way)

1b. Against a person with faster speeds and pre-cog you usually do (not to mention this is 4th timeline homura (still doesnt have much experience)

1.-Well, yeah.

2.-Homura was in her 100th incarnation. She would have known better. (Or did she just fell for that 100 times?!)

3.-It still gives Mami an edge over Homura, what would have happened if Mami was bloodlusted against Homura and didnt buy her "Suicide attempt"?


1b.-You can´t know which timeline Homura was in. (At least Post-Moemura, but still)

Not even the PSP game keeps track.

 

[SomebodyData]

1.-Well, yeah.

2.-Homura was in her 100th incarnation. She would have known better. (Or did she just fell for that 100 times?!)

3.-It still gives Mami an edge over Homura, what would have happened if Mami was bloodlusted against Homura and didnt buy her "Suicide attempt"?


1b.-You can´t know which timeline Homura was in. (At least Post-Moemura, but still)

Not even the PSP game keeps track.

2a. You do realize literally no timeline is the same, look at all the other timelines for example

3a. Homura wasn't bloodlusted either, and I don't see how this impacts whether or not Okatavia is 7-C

1b."Oriko Magica is a story taking place in one of the many timelines that occurs between timelines four and five of the Madoka Magica anime." -PMMM wikia

 

[Mikoto_Misaka231]

2a.- That always bothered me. Those aren´t timelines at all, they behave more like alternate dimentions, really.

But, again, Mami is still the same every timeline. She could have known her powers far back timeline 100th.

3a.-Mami did win, even while holding back. The fight was over the moment Homura pointed the gun at her face.


1b.-There is a contradiction between the anime and the manga.

If we consider the anime as the only canon, Homura only traveled thru 5 Timelines.

But, in the manga and in Tamura, she traveled 100 of them before Madoka sacrificing.

So, you can´t really tell.

You could consider Timeline 4 and 5 as Timelines 80 and 100, making Oriko around Timeline 90.

 

[SomebodyData]

2a.- That always bothered me. Those aren´t timelines at all, they behave more like alternate dimentions, really.
But, again, Mami is still the same every timeline. She could have known her powers far back timeline 100th.

3a.-Mami did win, even while holding back. The fight was over the moment Homura pointed the gun at her face.


1b.-There is a contradiction between the anime and the manga.

If we consider the anime as the only canon, Homura only traveled thru 5 Timelines.

But, in the manga and in Tamura, she traveled 100 of them before Madoka sacrificing.

So, you can´t really tell.

You could consider Timeline 4 and 5 as Timelines 80 and 100, making Oriko around Timeline 90.

2a.I think you mean alternative universes?

3a. Considering that Mami had already influenced the fight before it even began, still not sure if it counts

1b.Uhhh, you do realize Gen Urobutcher has already stated Homura has gone through approx. 100.

Tamura isnt Homura tho

You're last arguement doesn't make sense?

 

[Mikoto_Misaka231]

2a.-Yeah, if the events change without Homura´s influence, they are alternative universers.

3.a-That would imply Mami has some knowledge about Homura traveleing thru "time", but again, do we agree she has the edge on Homura?

1b.Yes. Aprox. 100 Timelines.

In Episode 10, we can only see 5 timelines, the quote itself clarifies my point:

"between timelines four and five of the Madoka Magica anime."

Timeline "4" (Anime) shows Homura already having her long hair, and Timeline "5" is the final timeline, where Madoka sacrifices herself and lead up to rebellion.

 

[SomebodyData]

2a.-Yeah, if the events change without Homura´s influence, they are alternative universers.
3.a-That would imply Mami has some knowledge about Homura traveleing thru "time", but again, do we agree she has the edge on Homura?

1b.Yes. Aprox. 100 Timelines.

In Episode 10, we can only see 5 timelines, the quote itself clarifies my point:

"between timelines four and five of the Madoka Magica anime."

Timeline "4" (Anime) shows Homura already having her long hair, and Timeline "5" is the final timeline, where Madoka sacrifices herself and lead up to rebellion.

2a. Not sure what that would have to do with anything do to do with this

3a.no, she has knowledge of homura's time stop ability not traveling through time, and yeah she has the edge because she preped against Homura's weakness ie attaching herself to Homura to make sure she isn't affected by time stop

1b. The main character Homura had gone through 100 timelines

Yes

No

 

[Mikoto_Misaka231]

2a.-Well, it would be a contradiction on how timelines work.

3a.-Yet Homura got trapped (out of guard) by Mami´s ribbons. That was the 100th timeline.

1b.-

Yes.

 

[SomebodyData]

2a.-Well, it would be a contradiction on how timelines work.
3a.-Yet Homura got trapped (out of guard) by Mami´s ribbons. That was the 100th timeline.

1b.-

Yes.

2a. I still dont understand why this is being talked, here

3a. You also seem to be forgetting that Mami had prep + Homura not having her complete memory (she didnt even completely remember Madoka til a few scenes later)

1b-

Yes to the first or to the second one?

 

[Mikoto_Misaka231]

2a.-Well, it would be a contradiction on how timelines work.
3a.-Yet Homura got trapped (out of guard) by Mami´s ribbons. That was the 100th timeline.

1b.-

Yes.

2a. I still dont understand why this is being talked, here
3a. You also seem to be forgetting that Mami had prep + Homura not having her complete memory (she didnt even completely remember Madoka til a few scenes later)

1b-

Yes to the first or to the second one?

2a.-Nothing, really. It just shows Homura should have experience of Mami´s skills, and not be "taken of guard" after 100th repeats.

3a.-Before charlotte, Mami had no idea Homura was following her, she trapped her without prep. And the same can be said about rebellion.

1b.-Homura did travel thru 100 "Timelines" according to the Autor, the PSP game and Tamura.


Now, before we get any deeper.

Sayaka and Oriko are an entire tier below the rest of the Magical Girls.

Oriko defeated Homura in canon and Kyoko had to sacrifice herself to defeat Oktavia.

Both of them should at least be 7-C.

 

[SomebodyData]

2a.-Nothing, really. It just shows Homura should have experience of Mami´s skills, and not be "taken of guard" after 100th repeats.

3a.-Before charlotte, Mami had no idea Homura was following her, she trapped her without prep. And the same can be said about rebellion.

1b.-Homura did travel thru 100 "Timelines" according to the Autor, the PSP game and Tamura.


Now, before we get any deeper.

Sayaka and Oriko are an entire tier below the rest of the Magical Girls.

Oriko defeated Homura in canon and Kyoko had to sacrifice herself to defeat Oktavia.

Both of them should at least be 7-C.

3a.A non-battle ready Homura gets trapped by a person not willing to make peace, it would be expected. In Rebellion, she straight up makes a clone, tracks and nullifies Homura's time stop effect on Mami before the fight even starts. Yeah, no thats prep time.

1b. Yeah

Using hax doesn't mean they're on their level. Its like saying multi-versal Sans or Spike the Devil Man being beyond any evil character in ap, which is absurd.

 

[Mikoto_Misaka231]

3a.- That is NOT prep time. Mami was time-stopped well before Homura let go of "Bebe".

And again, the fact that she made a clone is outsmarting Homura.

1b.-So, Oriko couldn´t have happened on the 5th NORMAL timeline.


What hax? Oriko pretty much defeated Homura cleanly on the spin off, she did not nullify her time stop nor hax her restricted in any way (Again, please read the manga, or at least the pages i linked on Oriko´s page.)

And two, Kyoko had to suicide to defeat Oktavia, you cannot deny that.

 

[SomebodyData]

3a.- That is NOT prep time. Mami was time-stopped well before Homura let go of "Bebe".
And again, the fact that she made a clone is outsmarting Homura.

Prep Time= Affecting the outcome of the fight befor it even begins. That is Prep Time

1b.-So, Oriko couldn´t have happened on the 5th NORMAL timeline. Normal?

What hax? Oriko pretty much defeated Homura cleanly on the spin off, she did not nullify her time stop nor hax her restricted in any way (Again, please read the manga, or at least the pages i linked on Oriko´s page.)

Pre-Cognition is a powerful hax

And two, Kyoko had to suicide to defeat Oktavia, you cannot deny that.

Yes, because of her massive rege

 

[Mikoto_Misaka231]

3a.- That is NOT prep time. Mami was time-stopped well before Homura let go of "Bebe".
And again, the fact that she made a clone is outsmarting Homura.

Prep Time= Affecting the outcome of the fight befor it even begins. That is Prep Time

1b.-So, Oriko couldn´t have happened on the 5th NORMAL timeline. Normal?

What hax? Oriko pretty much defeated Homura cleanly on the spin off, she did not nullify her time stop nor hax her restricted in any way (Again, please read the manga, or at least the pages i linked on Oriko´s page.)

Pre-Cognition is a powerful hax

And two, Kyoko had to suicide to defeat Oktavia, you cannot deny that.

Yes, because of her massive rege

3a.-Mami did not affect the outcome in anyway. She just outsmarted Homura.

If she KNEW before hand she was going to fight Homura and made a plan on how to beat her, i would agree with ya.


1b.-Indeed. But she still hurt her and outsmarted her.

Massive Regen or no, Kyoko had to use all of her power to take her down. That is 7-C

 

[Antvasima]

Please stop spamming the page by repeatedly quoting long posts. It is against the wiki rules.

 

[SomebodyData]

3a. Since you seem not to be able to accept it as prep time, lets ask [Antvasima] does making a clone and countering a specific hax that the enemy has prior to the actual fight count as prep time?

1b- Ah okay? Beating a rather noobish Homura isn't much of a feat espically with the use of pre-cog

That however isnt 7-C dura, to give an example. If I used a Planet level attack that tears a hole in the body of street level dura person but it doesnt kill them due to aoe does that mean the person is planet level? No, of course not, it means that the aoe isn't good enough

 

[Antvasima]

3a) I think so, yes.

 

[SomebodyData]

3a) I think so, yes.

Thank you for responding

 

[Antvasima]

No problem.

 

[Mikoto_Misaka231]

No problem.

Gee, thanks.

It still does not change the fact that Mami beat Homura, even with all the preptime you want, you have no evidence claiming Homura is superior to Mami in base MG forms.


1b.-We have already discussed this, SD. Homura was already with her long hair at that time.

Did you not understand what i said about the timelines?


It does in this scenario. Kyoko used a Sacrifice attack to beat Oktavia.

Why, would you mind, would you sacrifice and use ALL of your power against an enemy you claim Kyoko could defeat using normal attacks?

 

[SomebodyData]

Gee, thanks.

It still does not change the fact that Mami beat Homura, even with all the preptime you want, you have no evidence claiming Homura is superior to Mami in base MG forms.


1b.-We have already discussed this, SD. Homura was already with her long hair at that time.

Did you not understand what i said about the timelines?


It does in this scenario. Kyoko used a Sacrifice attack to beat Oktavia.

Why, would you mind, would you sacrifice and use ALL of your power against an enemy you claim Kyoko could defeat using normal attacks?

Please mind your attitude around Antvasima.

Uh okay? I never said she was superior, only that they were considered equals and your "evidence" has Mami constantly with unfair advantages

1b. You like realize she stopped having her Moemura hair style by the fourth timeline right? Oriko takes place at the fifth timeline

I never said she can defeat her using normal attacks... I said her AOE of normal attacks wasn't effective enough in taking down someone who would regen quicklier

 

[Mikoto_Misaka231]

Ugh, must stop quoting before they get mad.
Okay, Mami and Homura are...very similar.

But Mami STILL has a very, very minor edge on Homura.


1b.-Yes. You said it yourself, "Oriko Magica is a story taking place in one of the many timelines that occurs between timelines four and five of the Madoka Magica anime."

(Which differs from the manga and Tamura´s 100 Timelines. The anime only talked about 5 of them.)


Alright, do you have any evidence of that?

I mean, i get your logic.

But it´s not like Kyoko "Eliminated every single cell to avoid Oktavia from regenarating.", if you know what i mean.

 

[SomebodyData]

Okay, Mami and Homura are...very similar.

But Mami STILL has a very, very minor edge on Homura.

1b.-Yes. You said it yourself, "Oriko Magica is a story taking place in one of the many timelines that occurs between timelines four and five of the Madoka Magica anime."

(Which differs from the manga and Tamura´s 100 Timelines. The anime only talked about 5 of them.)

Alright, do you have any evidence of that?

I mean, i get your logic.

But it´s not like Kyoko "Eliminated every single cell to avoid Oktavia from regenarating.", if you know what i mean.

Again,literally all her victories against Homura came from prep time, all you're doing is speculation which is contrary to what has been established

Tamura has literally nothing to do with this. I will repeat myself again. Gen has stated that Homura has gone through around 100 timelines. No ifs, nor buts.

Any evidence that her aoe couldn't kill her but all her attacks went through Oktavia thus not counting it as a durability feat? Sure, watch the fight. At one moment Kyoko straight up cuts off her hand and its repaired the next scene.

 

[Mikoto_Misaka231]

Again,literally all her victories against Homura came from prep time, all you're doing is speculation which is contrary to what has been established

Tamura has literally nothing to do with this. I will repeat myself again. Gen has stated that Homura has gone through around 100 timelines. No ifs, nor buts.

Any evidence that her aoe couldn't kill her but all her attacks went through Oktavia thus not counting it as a durability feat? Sure, watch the fight. At one moment Kyoko straight up cuts off her hand and its repaired the next scene.

Okay, let´s leave that subject for now.


Gen has stated Homura traveled 100 Timelines, Yes.

But which of those timelines are "The Fourth and Fifth Timeline shown in the Madoka Magica ANIME"? If we say each anime timeline is equal to 20 Manga timelines, then Oriko would have happened around timeline 90.


Oh, Snap. That´s right.

Well...Erm...Her core or chest should be more durable, right? She could have just slashed her again and end her if her entirety was as durable as her hand.

But, yeah, you win that one, i forgot completely

 

[SomebodyData]

Gen has stated Homura traveled 100 Timelines, Yes.

But which of those timelines are "The Fourth and Fifth Timeline shown in the Madoka Magica ANIME"? If we say each anime timeline is equal to 20 Manga timelines, then Oriko would have happened around timeline 90. Okay stop, I have literally no idea where you're getting this.

Oh, Snap. That´s right.

Well...Erm...Her core or chest should be more durable, right? She could have just slashed her again and end her if her entirety was as durable as her hand.

But, yeah, you win that one, i forgot completely

Ave Maria straight up impales Sayaka and she regens pretty easily there so I doubt its that much more durable.

 

[Mikoto_Misaka231]

Mikoto Misaka231 wrote:

Gen has stated Homura traveled 100 Timelines, Yes.

But which of those timelines are "The Fourth and Fifth Timeline shown in the Madoka Magica ANIME"? If we say each anime timeline is equal to 20 Manga timelines, then Oriko would have happened around timeline 90. Okay stop, I have literally no idea where you're getting this.

Okay, Homura traveled 100 timelines, but we only see five of them on the anime.

Which timelines are the ones we see on the anime?

Oh, Snap. That´s right.

Well...Erm...Her core or chest should be more durable, right? She could have just slashed her again and end her if her entirety was as durable as her hand.

But, yeah, you win that one, i forgot completely

Ave Maria straight up impales Sayaka and she regens pretty easily there so I doubt its that much more durable.

(Alright then.)

 

[SomebodyData]

Okay, Homura traveled 100 timelines, but we only see five of them on the anime.

Which timelines are the ones we see on the anime?

We see the Moemura, Moemura 2.0, The Truth Moemura, Beginning of Modern Homura, and Main Homura. Just saying that theres a likely time gap that you're not counting

 

[Mikoto_Misaka231]

Okay, Homura traveled 100 timelines, but we only see five of them on the anime.

Which timelines are the ones we see on the anime?

We see the Moemura, Moemura 2.0, The Truth Moemura, Beginning of Modern Homura, and Main Homura. Just saying that theres a likely time gap that you're not counting

Moemura - Anime Timeline 1, Moemura- Anime Timeline 2, True Moemura - Timeline 3, Modern Homura - Timeline 4 (ORIKO) Main Homura - Timeline 5.


Okay, and because we do know Homura didn´t just travel thru those 5 timelines, which would those timelines represent on the 100 Timeline margin Gen stated?