One Piece - Discussing stats (Chapter 955 and onward)

[CinCameron20]

And just to note: the only thing we really need to do in terms of edits for this thread is change the Haki page, if deemed necessary. If not, we can either close the thread or discuss other matters that pop up.

 

[Damage3245]

Luffy only visibly took one attack from Fujitora, and that was when he was using Haki and Gear 3 to defend himself (argument of whether Gear 3 actually helped or not aside, he was at least using it when he was blocking).

Saying that he no-sold multiple attacks Fujitora is being very generous.

And the Black Knight did only minimal damage to Luffy when Luffy wasn't seeming to use Haki to defend himself.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Damage - You say he only took one attack from Fujitora on-panel, so we should just disregard the incredibly light bruising on his skin that wasn't present at all before the fight, and the fact that he clashed his fist with Fujitora's blade on more than on occasion? I don't feel like having the same discussion as last time, especially if it goes in a massive circle again.

In regards to the BK doing "slight" damage to Luffy, the same could be said regarding Doffy himself, who connected attacks to Luffy, who wasn't using Haki, and still got up despite taking only some damage. Besides, we do tend to scale AP if they do enough to draw some blood, which the Black Knight does at least twice before their fight went purely off-panel.

Idk how you consider cuts that draw a decent amount of blood and also staggers Luffy (as he's flinching just before realizing that Doflamingo is about to punch him in the face) and a kick to the face that leaves him panting on the ground and spitting up more blood as "light/minimal" damage. Sure, it's not heavy, but you don't need to do anywhere near heavy amounts of damage to have your AP scale to another's Durability. It's unthinkable that the Black Knight and Doflamingo do SIMILAR levels of damage to Luffy with most attacks, yet Fujitora has only ever given him small bruising, but somehow the BK is 7-A+, Fuji is High 7-A, and then Doflamingo is High 7-A+-Low 6-B

 

[Damage3245]

> Idk how you consider cuts that draw a decent amount of blood

I thought we generally disregard cutting damage in One Piece ever since Whitebeard got stabbed and cut by a bunch of fodder?

As for the other attack, I'm pretty sure my position on it last time we took is that Luffy was just bleeding from previously-existing wounds.

 

[CinCameron20]

Strawman, also, who made that a rule? As far as I'm concerned, I never recognized that. And also, "fodder"? Interesting, because I don't see how obviously high ranking officers of the navy are considered "fodder", even if they are far weaker than Whitebeard. It's very obvious that 1) Whitebeard's body is weakened from having a hole punched in him, filling him with magma, and 2) his physical constitution is obviously flagging from his sickness, and 3) It's noted that high ranking officers of the navy has access to Haki, so I wouldn't be surprised of the two individuals who stabbed him used Busoshoku, or are simply more powerful than the average officer present.

• If anything, it would compliment the two marines who managed to stab him, and not discredit Whitebeard.

I am waiting for you to counter my point regarding the Black Knight. I am NOT here discussing Whitebeard's injuries.

 

[Damage3245]

Not really a strawman; I was just pointing out that it's been commonly accepted on here that One Piece characters are a lot more vulnerable to cutting attacks than blunt force attacks.

And I mentioned what my thoughts on this were last time this came up; Luffy was already injured at the time the Black Knight hit him. The blood could just be from a previous injury so it's not just from wounds inflicted by the Black Knight itself.

 

[CinCameron20]

Commonly accepted because it's "inconvenient"? Not following that. Marineford is full of outliers. Otherwise, we'd have Luffy be 6-B for hurting Garp, and WB High 7-C Dura for getting hurt by random Marines who may or may not be powerful enough to actually pose a minor threat to him.

Also... What? You mean to tell me that the Black Knight did not draw blood? Not to mention that he cut so deep, he seems to have affected Luffy internally, and caused him to begin producing blood from his mouth (lower right panel) just before Doflamingo punched him in the face.

• That alone is enough to suggest the BK scaled. Luffy literally screamed in pain and we see quite a lot of blood coming off of his injury from the BK.

Now for the second on-panel attack: Luffy gets kicked through the floor. We already know he was bleeding from his mouth from the previous page, but now there's more blood coming out from the other side of his mouth (Could be Oda forgetting, as he forgot similar cases w/ other injuries, but it's both sides now, not just one), but he's also left struggling to stand up for quite a few panels before the fight goes off-panel.

Now why would it take such a long time for Luffy to defeat the Black Knight even w/ Bellamy there if it wasn't capable of hurting him (2 on-panel cases counter this, but anyways)? We could assume it went like the anime, and the BK used Bellamy as a shield most of the time, but that wouldn't explain why Luffy was so exhausted by the time he actually destroyed the thing.

 

[Damage3245]

> Also... What? You mean to tell me that the Black Knight did not draw blood?

No, I was referring to the stomping attack for that bit.

> That alone is enough to suggest the BK scaled. Luffy literally screamed in pain and we see quite a lot of blood coming off of his injury from the BK.

I guess we should upgrade Bellamy to possibly Small Country level too for the same justification seeing as he slashed Luffy and cut him, and he punched Luffy and hurt him.

I think somewhere along the line the scaling has become quite messed up.

Doflamingo is possibly Low 6-B for holding Jozu in place with his threads, Luffy's base durability is now somehow possibly Low 6-B because he got kicked by Doflamingo...

We should also be upgrading Sanji to possibly Low 6-B now for hurting Luffy in WCI.

I knew this situation would happen once we accepted the Whitebeard 6-B calc. The whole verse has become messed up once again.

 

[CinCameron20]

So now you're trying to find reason for every "messed up" stat.

1) Bellamy is listed as Unknown anyways, and he actually has consistently hurt Luffy. The only time he has had any troubles was against Bartolomeo's barrier, and literally no one else hurt him (except, well, King Punch, but that sent him out of the arena). And no, he wouldn't be Small Country level. Low end of Luffy's Durability is High 7-A, not Low 6-B.

2) If you have a problem with Luffy's durability for Dressrosa, then we can discuss that. I was wondering if I should instead remove the + from the High 7-A portion, but then thought that he doesn't really have good dura feats against Doffy anyways.

3) Luffy was already hurt quite alot from Cracker, and Sanji only hurt Luffy w/ Diable Jambe, which we list as having some dura negating properties (funny that it doesn't burn Luffy, though).

"The whole verse has become messed up once again" jumping to very hasty conclusions and exaggerations, I see. At worst, only a couple profiles are shaky because of this.

 

[Damage3245]

I disagree, the scaling for the verse is very much wrong now. I can make a summary of every flaw later tonight to show what I mean.

 

[RoronoaxRobin]

@CinCameron20 Bellamy was also easily defeated by Dellinger and took a lot of damage from the beating.

 

[Antvasima]

I will unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can send me a message later if you need my help.

 

[The_Calaca]

And just to note: the only thing we really need to do in terms of edits for this thread is change the Haki page, if deemed necessary. If not, we can either close the thread or discuss other matters that pop up.

Wasn't this thread intended to discuss any potential discussion regarding the Wano arc tho?

@Damage

The Low 6-B rating for some characters is something that'd eventually happen. In fact, outside of Doffy stopping Jozu, there's also Ace, who has more feats on this level.

• Clashed with Sakazuki. He lost in strength but wasn't heavily injured by it outside of some burns.

• Clashed evenly with Kuzan. Although some people might say that this is because he had the elemental advantage and that's half-true.

• Stalemated Jinbe, who stopped a punch from bloodlusted Sakazuki.

• Burned Shirohige a bit in the novel, suggesting that he was becoming stronger between every assassination attempt.

• Harmed Teach, who was able to fight against Sengoku and Garp off-panel.

 

[Damage3245]

> The Low 6-B rating for some characters is something that'd eventually happen.

I know, but it's frustrating because it initially seemed to be presented in the Whitebeard thread as something that would only affect the top tiers, and now it's coming out that more and more characters are needing to be upgraded because of it.

We are at the point now where it is logically consistent for someone like Dellinger to be Small Country level and the only real counter-argument is "It's probably an outlier because it doesn't feel like Dellinger is that strong."

 

[The_Calaca]

I don't even know why would Dellinger scales.

You're using an outdated argument. We dismissed such scaling way before so at this point you're getting back to one of the arguments you used before the scaling was fixed more than one year ago.

We haven't been scaling Dellinger before, we won't do it now. What's the point then?

 

[Damage3245]

It seems like it would fall under the exact same logic;

1) Black Knight cuts Luffy, therefore Black Knight should scale to base Luffy's durability which is Possibly Low 6-B.

2) Bellamy cuts Luffy, therefore Bellamy should scale to base Luffy's durability which is Possibly Low 6-B.

3) Dellinger can seriously hurt Bellamy, meaning he should scale to Bellamy's durability which scales to his AP.

If Bellamy harming Luffy multiple times is invalid for scaling, why is the Black Knight causing minor damage to Luffy totally valid for scaling?

We could cut out the middle man by not scaling Doflamingo to Jozu at all; removing the Low 6-B scaling from himself and Luffy.

If we're going to ignore characters like Bellamy scaling to Luffy, then ignoring Doflamingo scaling to Jozu seems just as fine. Especially since he only immobilized him and didn't actually harm him or overpower one of his strikes.

 

[CinCameron20]

@Calaca - Nothing present to discuss about the Wano arc that hasn't been previously, so it's more "open discussion" at the moment until something else happens.

@Damage - Again, the damage inflicted to Luffy from the Black Knight was not minor. I don't consider cutting into someone so deep that it staggers them and causes him to cough up blood to be "minor".

In regards to Bellamy, he's inconsistent af. Not to mention Luffy just stands there and takes punches the entire time. The same can be said for Bellamy sitting there and allowing Dellinger to harm him while finding it unbelievable that Doflamingo would have him executed just like that. I'm aware that it's ridiculous to assume somehow they "lowered their durability", but to be fair, this manga has been all over the place in that regards (Also, I really wanted Doffy and everyone around that power scaling tree including the YC to only be 6-C scaling from the meteorite, but here we are).

• According to the manga, Bellamy could hurt Luffy (albeit w/ Haki) -> Who can't reliably hurt Doflamingo -> Who could easily bash Luffy... -> who one-shot Bellamy... -> Who could still hurt Luffy. Strange happenings--almost as bad as Marineford. It's Crocodile and Luffy of Marineford all over again.

I do find my change of Luffy's durability as a mistake anyways, and would probably choose to downgrade it to High 7-A flat (no +, just scaling from Fujitora)

 

[The_Calaca]

Weird, because when I look at Dellinger and Bellamy's profiles I don't see a High 7-A AP at all. The discussion was to update characters, not to change the scaling itself. If X character wasn't scaling before, nothing implies that he should suddenly scale to the same character he wasn't scaling to before the update happened.

Like I said above, even if we don't scale them to Jozu, there'll be another way for sure.

 

[Dr.Fix]

@Damage if you don't like it, you should have argued more so against the WB calc beofre it took effect.

Haven't looked at all the profiles yet to know if there were mistakes made with the edits. Off the top of my head Luffy's durability should probably be High 6-C + scaling backwards from Gear 4.

 

[Damage3245]

@Dr. Fix; I did argue against it, but there's only so much I can do.

 

[CinCameron20]

Here's the issue, though (and I think this is being especially ignored due to everyone being blinded by the current ratings making the gap between the mid and high tiers even larger): REGARDLESS of the Low 6-B staying, or they are downgraded to High 7-A+, the problem is still presented from the manga itself regarding the wonky power-scaling that all shounen are infamous for.

Bellamy still hurt Luffy quite easily (albeit w/ Haki if we can use that excuse), who got away with no more than small bruises from all we've seen Fujitora hit him with (Bellamy > an Admiral, sure Oda), and could take attacks from Doflamingo--but Luffy manages to one-shot him quite casually in base, and Dellinger off-paneled him.

• So again, regardless of powerscaling, we're still going to have this issue eternally unless we omit a lot of Doffy related feats and throw him at 7-B for no apparent reason other then to be like "Let's ignore his feats against Aokiji and Jozu... Oh, and also ignore the fact that Fujitora could do next to nothing to stop his bird-cage, let alone destroy it. Not to mention Luffy tanking hits from Fujitora, yet Doflamingo has near-stomped him repeatedly" (All 3 being High 7-A or significantly higher).

Again, I do think Luffy's durability is a problem I caused and should be set back down to High 7-A flat for taking hits from Fujitora because, well, his dura feats against Doflamingo are complete garbage.

 

[Ryuga21]

In SBS vol 71 Oda says that Law's kikoku is a cursed blade as well.

 

[AstralKing7]

We remember

 

[Ryuga21]

Then its page should have that listed in powers and abilities section

 

[The_Calaca]

But it is listed tho

I'm handling it.

 

[Kidkinsey]

question about the luffy punch

was it a SM naruto type thing when he dosent have to touch you to make damage or was it more so a toriko kugi punch thing where the damage is internal

 

[The_Calaca]

Both.

 

[Kidkinsey]

That's rather uhhh broken lmao imagine a gatling version

 

[OishiLover75]

I wonder if Batman will be as strong as the anime portrayed him.