One Piece | Lifting Strength Evaluation

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Main Issue

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This CRT was prompted by a Q&A thread I previously created. Unfortunately, I felt the responses didn’t adequately address the core concerns. The issue lies primarily in the current Lifting Strength scaling chain for One Piece.

Spoiler: Current Scaling Chain

• Zoro (Class E) → scales off Kaido & Big Mom\
• Kaido → scales off Big Mom
• Big Mom → scales off Marco
• Marco → scales off Ace (Class T) & King
• King → scales off Jack, Queen, Zoro
• Jack → Class T
• Queen → scales off Luffy & Sanji
• Sanji → scales off Queen & King
• Luffy → Class P

As evident, there's substantial circular scaling occurring, with most links in the chain relying on vague “comparable to” statements. There’s a distinct lack of concrete lifting strength feats or supporting scans, which has contributed to what I believe is a significant misapplication of a Class E feat—a feat that should be almost exclusive to Kaido and Momonosuke.

The original Class E lifting feat in question involves Momonosuke stopping Onigashima’s fall, which was achieved through a combination of:

• His own flight,
• The use of flame clouds,
• And his physical strength.

Only Kaido is shown to be capable of generating flame clouds of that scale, making him the only valid character to scale alongside Momonosuke. Everyone else should not be included unless they replicate this specific combination of strength and ability, which they do not.

The crux of this flawed chain seems to stem from Zoro, who is given Class E Lifting Strength with no direct LS feats against Kaido. The rationale typically involves:

• Sword clashes (which test striking strength, not LS),
• Holding off non-physical attacks,
• Or injuring Kaido, which at best demonstrates the ability to affect Kaido’s durability, not his lifting strength.

Hurting or staggering Kaido doesn’t equate to matching the force he used to suspend or halt a floating island. At most, that would scale to Kaido’s body weight, which still doesn’t justify Class E LS.

Conclusion

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I’m not advocating for the removal of the feat or its application to Kaido and Momonosuke. They remain valid. However, I believe we should re-examine who else is scaling from this feat. Anyone currently rated Class E purely due to this chain deserves a thorough reevaluation, ideally supported by individual feats or valid scaling logic.

If no such justification exists, they should be downgraded to a more accurate lifting strength class based on their own feats or reliably supported comparisons.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

So, do any supporters have arguments on why any characters aside from Kaido and Mononosuke should keep their Class E LS?

@KingTempest @Kachon123 @Godernet @Eseseso @Eminiteable

 

[Godernet]

So, do any supporters have arguments on why any characters aside from Kaido and Mononosuke should keep their Class E LS?

@KingTempest @Kachon123 @Godernet @Eseseso @Eminiteable

I posted in the QnA a comment with a few examples of Luffy physically restraining Kaido and having a strength to strength clash with him for a period in a way somewhat similar to the example that was provided that would indicate LS is probably being used not to mention Kidd suplexing Dragon Kaido

Not to mention the other Yonko having this massive stat gap with the others doesn’t really make sense given their portrayal as practical equals with no implied advantage for Kaido that would help him practically take down the other Yonko faster.

In fact as we see with Luffy and see briefly Shanks vs WB, Kaido vs BM, and even Luffy vs Kaido, Yonko fights are usually very physical fights where long periods of clashing happen, hence the sky split that only happens when two conquerors clash for seemingly a long enough time where it would be very unlikely to assume they are not using full advantage of their strengths to clash with each other.

Spoiler: Comment from QnA

Got it, while that does definitely make sense, although I still feel like an unsuccessful attempt at swinging with force to attempt to knock someone down should count for something, LS related, that's probably the topic for a different time.

Although I still think there are a bunch of feats that would trickle these characters down to the same value anyways.

For example, we have:

• Base Luffy and Kaido clashing that split the clouds, which was supposed to mirror Roger and Whitebeard's prolonged clash of strengths that did the same, not to mention every other example of a conqueror's haki clash that splits the clouds being a prolonged clash of strength.
• Base Luffy being able to both restrain Hybrid Kaido long enough to talk with Yamato and let Momo escape.
• Base Luffy and much stronger Drunken Hybrid Kaido clash, and while Luffy does lose the clash, he holds his own at least temporarily against a much stronger Kaido than Dragon Form Kaido, let alone Dragon Form Momo.
• Base Luffy taking a downward slam from Hybrid Kaido while remaining on his feet and punching him in the face the very next panel, which isn't too unlike the MCU Thor and Hulk example brought up in that thread where Kaido is applying his strength in a downwards attack pushing on Luffy, but he fights through it to land his own attack. Although you can definitely argue this was likely a shorter timeframe of struggling between them, however that by itself shouldn't prevent scaling.

Not to mention all of the fighting Luffy and Kaido do offscreen, which was probably just as physical and close quarters as a lot of the fight we are shown.

All things considered, I find it hard to justify Luffy not scaling to Kaido in LS, or even other emperors who are supposed to be his equal, massively below him in LS, when in lore, there doesn't seem to be a massive gap in any stat between them that would cause an exploitable means of defeating each other and they all view each other as powerful individuals that would be difficult to take out.

We get Big Mom and Kaido fighting for an extended period of time when they meet, giving some credit to that.

Not to mention other characters with their own feats, like Kidd RKOing Kaido in Dragon Form and slamming Big Mom with his Slam Gibson and Punk Gibson techniques, respectively.

And IIRC, G5 Luffy does clash with Lucci in the very next arc, who goes on to fight Zoro, with Egghead only being a short time later with the characters not really having the time or reason to have gotten massively stronger after recovering from the events of Wano and sailing to Egghead.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I posted in the QnA a comment with a few examples of Luffy physically restraining Kaido and having a strength to strength clash with him for a period in a way similar to the example that was provided that would indicate LS is probably being used as well as Kidd suplexing Dragon Kaido

• Base Luffy and Kaido clashing that split the clouds, which was supposed to mirror Roger and Whitebeard's prolonged clash of strengths that did the same, not to mention every other example of a conqueror's haki clash that splits the clouds being a prolonged clash of strength.
  • Non-physical clash of Haki.
• Base Luffy being able to both restrain Hybrid Kaido long enough to talk with Yamato and let Momo escape.
  • Link doesn't work.
• Base Luffy and much stronger Drunken Hybrid Kaido clash, and while Luffy does lose the clash, he holds his own at least temporarily against a much stronger Kaido than Dragon Form Kaido, let alone Dragon Form Momo.
  • Non-physical clash of Haki.
• Base Luffy taking a downward slam from Hybrid Kaido while remaining on his feet and punching him in the face the very next panel, which isn't too unlike the MCU Thor and Hulk example brought up in that thread where Kaido is applying his strength in a downwards attack pushing on Luffy, but he fights through it to land his own attack. Although you can definitely argue this was likely a shorter timeframe of struggling between them, however that by itself shouldn't prevent scaling.
  • Depends on how long it lasted. We would need an anime scene to determine.

As for suplexing, that would scale to Kaido's weight, not his LS.

Not to mention the other Yonko having this massive stat gap with the others doesn’t really make sense given their portrayal as practical equals with no implied advantage for Kaido that would help him practically take down the other Yonko faster.

That's not admissible on a profile.

In fact as we see with Luffy and see briefly Shanks vs WB, Kaido vs BM, and even Luffy vs Kaido, Yonko fights are usually very physical fights where long periods of clashing happen, hence the sky split that only happens when two conquerors clash for seemingly a long enough time where it would be very unlikely to assume they are not using full advantage of their strengths to clash with each other.

This is Attack vs Attack, not LS vs LS.

 

[Godernet]

i disagree with some of the conclusions in the comment above but for now ill leave these other LS interactions that i found here and tackle that comment later when I'm off work.

• Base Luffy restraining Kaido
• G5 Luffy holding Kaido in place.
• Aramaki holding down Dragon Form Momo

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

• Base Luffy restraining Kaido

There's no struggle of power being dispalyed here, he just wrapped around Kaido's neck.

• G5 Luffy holding Kaido in place.

I think he's just grabbing him.

• Aramaki holding down Dragon Form Momo

I may be reading this wrong, but Momo is specifically saying not to fight. So I would assume he's not fighting either.


I'm interested in what other staff think.

@FinePoint @Catzlaflame @DarkDragonMedeus @Duedate8898

 

[Eminiteable]

There's no struggle of power being dispalyed here, he just wrapped around Kaido's neck.

There is, Kaidou was attacking Yamato and Momo, Luffy stopped and restrained him.

I may be reading this wrong, but Momo is specifically saying not to fight. So I would assume he's not fighting either.

He's telling them not to fight since he didn't want to keep relying on the help of others who were about to leave, he was absolutely trying to fight and got overpowered.

 

[DragoZeroNova]

There's no struggle of power being dispalyed here, he just wrapped around Kaido's neck.

I think he's just grabbing him.

I may be reading this wrong, but Momo is specifically saying not to fight. So I would assume he's not fighting either.


I'm interested in what other staff think.

@FinePoint @Catzlaflame @DarkDragonMedeus @Duedate8898

I'm not an expert on lifting strength, but for the third scan, he is specifically stating to Yamato not to fight, and ONLY Yamato precisely because he (momo) and the Red Scabbards are the ones that's supposed to fight. So, it's the opposite, he should be trying his absolute hardest.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

OP seems reasonable to me.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

There is, Kaidou was attacking Yamato and Momo, Luffy stopped and restrained him.

For how long? That's important.

He's telling them not to fight since he didn't want to keep relying on the help of others who were about to leave, he was absolutely trying to fight and got overpowered.

I see, in that case, Aramaki scaling to Momo's LS when he pulled Onigashima would be fine.

 

[KingTempest]

@KingTempest

Was tryna distance myself from this verse but oh well.

The scaling is rooted in many places.

Momonosuke scales to the yield of these clouds physically because he can outpull the pull of Kaidou's clouds which are far superior to his own. That's the root of the scaling for Class E.

Now.

The crux of this flawed chain seems to stem from Zoro, who is given Class E Lifting Strength with no direct LS feats against Kaido. The rationale typically involves:

• Sword clashes (which test striking strength, not LS),

This is actually both. It applies to regular clashes as well w/out swords.
This is striking strength. Hitting each other.
This is lifting strength. Prolonging the clashes against each other, trying to overpower the other.

Same way how this is a showing of equal striking strength but superior lifting. The initial clash, striking. The back and forth, not striking.

Luffy vs Kaidou with the "non-physical" is the same as if it was physical. The only difference is that their energy isn't just around their fists but it's being pushed out, and they're pushing each other through that energy.
Same as here. Equal striking, superior lifting.

• Holding off non-physical attacks,

This is fine to an extent. Non-physical attacks still have force behind them that can be pushed back. This is a showcase of so.

• Or injuring Kaido, which at best demonstrates the ability to affect Kaido’s durability, not his lifting strength.

This is fully fair.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

@Damage3245

Would you mind giving your opinion. You and Tempest seem to have contradicting views on this.

 

[Damage3245]

@Damage3245

Would you mind giving your opinion. You and Tempest seem to have contradicting views on this.

I'll take a look later today.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I'll take a look later today.

Just a reminder.

 

[Damage3245]

Just a reminder.

Oh, yeah...

Regarding this, the currently ongoing Calc Group Members thread for the size of Onigashima will likely have a significant impact on this so I think it is best to wait until that is resolved.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Gotcha.