Part I Revisions (Haku, Neji, Naruto), and Tobirama was there too

[LordTracer]

They did not notice until the end of the fight, yet Neji did it at the beginning of the fight.

Him stepping in his not what is out of character. Him having a bias towards the main house is what’s out of character, which I had to say because you apparently think the idea of him not being biased is questionable.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I completely agree with the OP on Haku, KN0, and Tobirama. Will comment on the Neji stuff later.

 

[LordTracer]

Can the Haku, KN0 and Tobirama stuff be applied at this point? Nobody seems to disagree with them.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

They did not notice until the end of the fight, yet Neji did it at the beginning of the fight.

Him stepping in his not what is out of character. Him having a bias towards the main house is what’s out of character, which I had to say because you apparently think the idea of him not being biased is questionable.

The only one that claimed to not have seen that was Kurenai, and even then the major problem is that none of them can see taiketsu.

Kakashi, Guy and Kurenai all moved in when he already began striking. The idea that they are both so slow that they can't see him strike Hinata, while at the same time crossing several meters faster than he could strike Hinata, makes no sense.

And no. Gai stepped in because Neji broke his promise. Regardless of that, the promise was about the Main Branch, and Gai stepped in because of the main branch. More importantly, you are once again assuming that he is stronger than the Jonin for no reason. None of them look particularly pressed at holding him at all, even Hayato doesn't have any change in his facial expression from what he looks like default, and Gai is certainly not struggling.

 

[Damage3245]

They did not notice until the end of the fight, yet Neji did it at the beginning of the fight.

Him stepping in his not what is out of character. Him having a bias towards the main house is what’s out of character, which I had to say because you apparently think the idea of him not being biased is questionable.

They can't see the pressure points like Neji and Hinata can.

 

[Kin201]

What? Haku is 7-C? So should base Sasuke scale to him? Haku is Kakashi's level, lol.

 

[LordTracer]

The idea that they are both so slow that they can't see him strike Hinata, while at the same time crossing several meters faster than he could strike Hinata, makes no sense.

Reaction speed and movement speed are two different things, dude. Did you forget that?

And no. Gai stepped in because Neji broke his promise.

I literally didn’t say otherwise...? You were the one questioning the idea of the jōnin not being biased towards the main house and against the branch house.

More importantly, you are once again assuming that he is stronger than the Jonin for no reason. None of them look particularly pressed at holding him at all

Then why the hell did they not just let Hayate do his job as the proctor? Even if you say Guy and Kurenai stepped in because it’s their students, there are less than zero reasons for Kakashi to come in as well.

Can the Haku, KN0 and Tobirama stuff be applied at this point? Nobody seems to disagree with them.

Reiterating this.

 

[LordTracer]

What? Haku is 7-C? So should base Sasuke scale to him? Haku is Kakashi's level, lol.

So you clearly didn’t pay attention to the OP where Haku is tiered at ‘At least 8-B, possibly 7-C.’

 

[Kin201]

I guess his AP is possibly 7-C and other stats do not scale? Since base Sasuke was able to match him physically?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Reaction speed and movement speed are two different things, dude. Did you forget that?

Their reactions sure as hell are not slower than their movement speed though. Tunnel vision through speed is a thing that only the Chidori really causes, implying that simply moving around does not in fact render Kakashi incapable of seeing.

So again, they somehow moved over tens of meters and got into position to restrict an attack they could not see before?

I literally didn’t say otherwise...? You were the one questioning the idea of the jōnin not being biased towards the main house and against the branch house.

No, you claimed he stepped in because he thought that Neji is too strong.

Then why the hell did they not just let Hayate do his job as the proctor? Even if you say Guy and Kurenai stepped in because it’s their students, there are less than zero reasons for Kakashi to come in as well.

To stop the attempted murder. They all moved in sync. Should they have stopped and looked around to see what the others do?

 

[LordTracer]

The 8-B is literally from scaling to LoW Arc Sasuke.

 

[LordTracer]

So again, they somehow moved over tens of meters and got into position to restrict an attack they could not see before?

Neji running at Hinata is not the same as him striking her tenketsu, what?

No, you claimed he stepped in because he thought that Neji is too strong.

No, I claimed he stepped in to restrain Neji. Don’t misconstrue what I’ve said, please. The fact that four jōnin felt the need to do it at the same time is what brings me to the conclusion of Neji being stronger than them individually.

Their reactions sure as hell are not slower than their movement speed though.

Yes, and? The jōnin intercepted Neji running at Hinata from across the arena, not him striking her tenketsu at close range (aka, what they didn’t react to earlier). Don’t try to act like it’s the same thing.

To stop the attempted murder. They all moved in sync. Should they have stopped and looked around to see what the others do?

Hayate was already running at Neji before the others showed up, so no, they did not move in sync. That isn’t said anywhere.

 

[KingTempest]

Uh, no. Based on literally what?

If I say Hagoromo scales far above Pre Timeskip Kid Konohamaru in every aspect of fighting, would I need to prove that? -_-

So not one version of Pre TS Sasuke is equal to if not above Neji.
3 Tomoe Sharingan ~ FV KN0 Naruto by your words.
CS1 Sasuke > FV KN0 as an Amp to above
CS2 Sasuke > FV KN0 as an Amp to above
FV KN0 Naruto ≥ CE KN0 Naruto ~ CE Neji as he fought Neji

Also are you really trying to scale Kurenai to UCHIHA ITACHI?

In Taijutsu and scaling relative to his physical AP based on a clear feat of reacting to and blocking and taking a kick from him, yes.
Idk why Kurenai isn't allowed to be a Jonin.
Naruto is not a verse about physical strength, that's why Lee n Guy are so strong.

Are you actually using the databook, on its own, when it’s contradicted by the manga? Land of Waves Naruto and Land of Waves Sasuke are both easily Chūnin level already (Naruto slapped Mizuki, Sasuke fought two chūnin at the same time). Chūnin Exam Finals Sasuke is far beneath Neji. Neji is not chūnin level, his feats and scaling are far above.

Naruto jumped him while he had hundreds of clones and he was surprised a slouch like him could do that.
Plot Induced Stupidity. Kakashi even fake died just so he got the spotlight. It was 1000% plot. Not even including the fact that they didn't even try to fight Sasuke, just assassinate the bridge builder and all the "supervising genin" who weren't paying attention. Sasuke intercepted their long ass chains then stepped on them.

In my debate server, we go by a rule called "Winning ≠ Professionalism". You beating somebody doesn't immediately mean you scale. Take circumstance, state of being, and other feats to see where they scale. That works in fighting as well.

Peak EOS Part 1 Neji struggled with Kidomaru who needed his peak form with 3 others in peak form to fight no named Jonin.
So Neji can fight partially transformed Gaara who was ******** on the same Naruto that bullied Neji.
Explain to me why Neji wasn't promoted to Chunin even though it's based on performance (all of Neji's feats counted as performance). They do 10 year old Jonin's (Kakashi), why isn't the strongest in the clan, over the leaders, at least a chunin?

Hm, one feat being inconsistent with several feats prior? Sounds like one of these.

Please name me the several feats prior.

Okay, you’re straight up just being dishonest here. Sasuke was getting his ass handed to him by the Sound Four, who were in BASE.

Sasuke didn't even use his Sharingan and he had no shoes on and he was kicking them around until they started using Ninjutsu.
You're not understanding my point. I never said he scales to all of them. I'm saying he's at LEAST as fast as base Kidomaru.
They get their speed scaling for keeping up with Sasuke. Plus they JUMPED HIM.

Neji held his own against CS2 Kidomaru (he is weaker, yes, but he still held his own).

I'm scaling Sasuke to Kidomaru's combat speed. All I saw in Kidomaru vs Neji was attack speed from Kidomaru. We are not the same.

Konoha Crush Sasuke does not scale above CS2 Kidomaru, or even Base Kidomaru.

Strawman. I said relative in speed.

First of all, Naruto does not scale to Neji except in KN0. Sasuke does not scale to KN0. Second of all, I pretty clearly discussed Neji scaling to Lee with Damage, and you even acknowledge later in your post that Fifth Gate Lee is comparable to Neji in speed.

I apologize for not making the state of the characters clear.
I never acknowledged that. I quoted Damage who said "We currently give Neji MHS reaction speed on the basis that Rock Lee needs the Fifth Gate to defeat him".
I don't even believe Neji is equal to BASE Lee in speed.

Again, Lee fighting Kimimaro is considered an outlier because even if you removed all of this Neji stuff, it would still make Lee stronger than he was during the Chūnin Exams.

Umm... okay? So Lee isn't allowed to be stronger then he is prior? Even Kishimoto gives him higher strength.

Considered an outlier. CS2 doesn’t amp speed by ten times, it was stated to enhance power and durability by ten times.

You keep worrying about his strength scaling while I'm worried purely about speed. NOTHING says that Lee in the chunin exams wouldn't be able to at keep up in SPEED to Kimimaro.
Kimimaro FLAT OUT SAID Lee is stronger than KN0 Naruto. His words > your scaling.

Force = Mass times Acceleration. 10x force on one side (force) means they need that 10x on another side too. It doesn't appear that they're gaining mass, so the 10x goes purely to Acceleration. They're getting 10x as fast as it would take them to get 1x as fast.

Check the profiles, we have Base Kimimaro above all of the Sound Four.

Kimimaro: Speed: High Hypersonic (Able to keep up against several clones of Naruto at once) | High Hypersonic (Faster than before).
Kidomaru: Speed: High Hypersonic (Able to keep up with Sasuke in a fight) | High Hypersonic (Faster than before) | High Hypersonic (Faster than before).
Tayuya: Speed: High Hypersonic (Able to keep up with Sasuke in a fight) | High Hypersonic (Faster than before) | High Hypersonic (Faster than before).
Sakon & Ukon: Speed: High Hypersonic (Able to keep up with Sasuke in a fight) | High Hypersonic (Faster than before) | High Hypersonic (Faster than before).
Jirobo: Speed: High Hypersonic (Able to keep up with Sasuke in a fight) | High Hypersonic (Faster than before) | High Hypersonic (Faster than before).
What are you talking about? They're all the same. The profiles give them their speeds just for scaling to Sasuke without Sharingan and with no shoes on.

He didn’t say that though? He said that we currently give Neji MHS reactions for being able to fight Fifth Gate Lee, he didn’t say that Neji didn’t have the speed to keep up with him.

You don't need to be lightspeed to dodge light.
You don't need to be Rock Lee speed to dodge Rock Lee.
Tsunade kept up w/ A in their fight against Madara, while Madara said she's slower.

And considering how, again, Lee never once says that he can defeat Neji with the Fifth Gate/Reverse Lotus and only thinks that he can possibly compete, and despite the fact that he has that, he still says Neji is the strongest genin in Konoha, that pretty blatantly shows that Neji is superior to the Fifth Gate.

Strength isn't always referred to as AP in fiction.
Neji targets organs. If he hits you once, it's gg. Neji hit Naruto once and Naruto almost lost the fight. Does that mean Neji just absolutely towers over Naruto? That's not AP, that's hax.
When did he say anything about possibly compete? Neji w/ his Byakugan was looking at him like he was a God.
Guy said Lee w/ reverse lotus was untouchable. Obviously not in all of fiction, but you think Neji of all people is the only one to outstand that?
Guy said with base Lee that his speed can't be surpassed. BASE LEE. This is Neji's teacher saying that one of his other students can't be surpassed in speed. Everything else is just headcanon.

Neji does not have more AP than most of these people. Just hax.
Neji isn't even faster than most of these people.
Neji isn't even Jonin level.
I've said my own.

 

[LordTracer]

Whatever, I really don’t care at this point if it’s gonna be this much of a pain to explain what the manga actually says. Neji‘s speed still scales to MHS+ for scaling to KN0 anyways.

Can the Haku, Naruto and Tobirama stuff be applied now, yes or no.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I agree with the Haku, Naruto and Tobirama stuff. Kinda Neutral on Neji for now.

 

[KingTempest]

Haku, Naruto, and Tobirama revisions I agree with 1000%. Neji, you've seen my input.

 

[LordTracer]

Should I add an idea I had for revising the Bijuu here, or put it in another thread? Cause all it really is would be giving the Bijuu a new 7-A key for before the War Arc.

 

[KingTempest]

You'd have to add the Akatsuki on that too, since the Akatsuki fight and defeat the bijuu, but no objections here Tracer.

 

[LordTracer]

Yeah, I know. Basically the Eight-Tails says that, as the Six Paths of Obito, the jinchūriki are stronger than when they were alive. So their 6-C feats only apply to them during the War Arc, Shukaku, Gyūki and Kurama are the only exceptions to this.

The living jinchūriki (in their V1/V2 states) would still be 7-A, but via scaling above Gaara, another jinchūriki. The Bijuu themselves would also be 7-A due to being stronger than the V2 jinchūriki. Then, as the Six Paths of Obito, they’d be 6-C.

Basically their keys would be this: 7-C (Base) | At least 7-A (Version 1/2) | At least 7-A (Bijuu) | 6-C (Six Paths Edo Jinchūriki)

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Wouldn't that also make Obito stronger since he's the one who amped them to that point and could fight KCM2 Naruto who slapped the Edo Jinchuuriki in their Full Bijuu States?

 

[LordTracer]

Wouldn't that also make Obito stronger since he's the one who amped them to that point and could fight KCM2 Naruto who slapped the Edo Jinchuuriki in their Full Bijuu States?

Rinnegan Obito should be tiered higher imo, but I know that scaling people to the Tier 6 Bijuu is one of the most controversial things for this verse, so I won’t touch that until the Part II AP revisions.

 

[Slacjow]

It took four jōnin at the same time to prevent him from killing Hinata.

Just because multiple characters jumped on one doesn't mean that one character can rival them.
You make it sound like non of them could stop him single handedly which is a blatant lie.
Something as blatantly simple as this shouldn't even be brought up.

 

[LordTracer]

Just because multiple characters jumped on one doesn't mean that one character can rival them.
You make it sound like non of them could stop him single handedly which is a blatant lie.
Something as blatantly simple as this shouldn't even be brought up.

I literally said I didn’t care about Neji anymore, why are you talking about it? Read through the thread before giving input, please.

 

[Slacjow]

I wasn't replying exclusively to you.

 

[LordTracer]

You quoted me, said “you,” and was referring to a point that solely I was making. Who else could you have possibly been referring to?

 

[Slacjow]

You doesn't necessarily mean you alone, i can refer to other people who supported that claim.
The reason I quoted you was because of the link, I didn't notice it also replied directly to you.
And I already said I wasn't referring exclusively to you, stop being so defensive.

 

[Metalija]

I agree with rinnegan Obito being 6-C.

 

[Zero0zero0zero]

Remind me, how KN1 Naruto/CS2 Sasuke would be High 7-C?

 

[LordTracer]

Remind me, how KN1 Naruto/CS2 Sasuke would be High 7-C?

Base (Three-Tomoe) Sasuke would now be 7-C for fighting the 7-C KN0 Naruto. CS1 Sasuke is stronger than that, and CS2 is a 10x multiplier on top of CS1.

The 7-C calc that everyone scales to is 16.56 kilotons. Multiply that by ten, and you get 156.6 kilotons, which is above the baseline of High 7-C.

 

[Zero0zero0zero]

I think I missed this 16 kilotons calc, which one it's?

 

[Damage3245]

Which 7-C calc is that? The verse page doesn't have that figure.

 

[KingTempest]

Wouldn't that also make Obito stronger since he's the one who amped them to that point and could fight KCM2 Naruto who slapped the Edo Jinchuuriki in their Full Bijuu States?

I personally don't agree. All Obito did was plop eyes into their heads that let them have linked vision. He got his spare Sharingan then did the Six paths of Pain on the Jinchuriki. Obito even said that he couldn't even handle his Rinnegan. I say no

 

[Lorenzo.r.2nd]

would anybody mind if made a longish post responding to a few things in the OP?

 

[LordTracer]

Which 7-C calc is that? The verse page doesn't have that figure.

The Chōji calc (I know that it’s incorrect, but it’s what’s currently on the profiles).

 

[LordTracer]

would anybody mind if made a longish post responding to a few things in the OP?

The Neji thing has been dealt with, so there’s no need to talk about that. Otherwise, go ahead.

 

[Metalija]

Isn't there a calc for SRA Gaara thats 14 kilotons or something?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I think Obito should be left for the part 2 revisions. There's no point in discussing him now. though I do agree that he deserves an upgrade.

Edit: I just saw @LordTracer's suggestion regarding the Bijuu, and I think it's definitely a pretty interesting idea and needs further discussion, but I don't know if we can do it now or if it's better suited for the part II AP revision.

 

[LordTracer]

Isn't there a calc for SRA Gaara thats 14 kilotons or something?

Yes, but that’s not what jōnin currently scale to.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

In case anyone missed it, I also agree with the Tobirama, Haku, and KN0 suggestions in the OP.
Since the Neji discussion essentially died, I won't add further fuel to that.

 

[LordTracer]

At this point, we just need a staff member to give the okay to applying them.