PC-98's downgrade

[MrBreakout]

Hello guys, I'm a fairly new use to vs battle wiki and plan to help out with some profiles alongside create profiles I had in mind. I'm somewhat of a touhou debator and I realize that the tiering for majority of the pc-98's cast is sorta haphazard. Now this has nothing to do with reimu or marisa or yuuka or anything but for the rest of the more unknown characters. Let's start

Scaling
Silly siingyoku, you're not suppose to be there

Ok so why in the world is singyoku 3-C? Yes he fought reimu but this was a feat that was established during the first game, Alongside the fact that he's meant to be a simple bossfight for reimu to defeat, there was no emphasis on whether she struggled or not so trying to insinuate that he's as powerful as her would not only be fallacious as its lacking a huge burden of proof as reimu hasnt displayed that power in the first game, but it's also very haphazard as bosses even in bayonetta should scale to her

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Fortitudo

Why would this logic apply to bayonetta as well?

1. Not only are both bayonetta and reimu killing the bosses and both aren't shown to struggle against them, but both are shown to not scale to their utmost superior showings in terms of statistics.

So why can singyoku get away with this but not fortitudo? It's absolutely illogical, Granted Fortitudo shouldnt scale to bayonetta obviously but it was a simple analogy to prove my point more.

Other profiles within the pc-98 have the same issue as well.

YuugenMagan why are you at this tiering? silly dude

Again it has to be proven that they would scale to reimu's superior showings which was done in the LAST PC-98 GAME. This is literally the FIRST one. Where there hasn't been anything substantiated or provided reimu would even be at a building degree at that time.

same here

and here as well

The amount of PC-98 profiles that have this problem is too much. Scaling something done in previous titles to something done in the final title of that installment is already haphazard but to actually deduce that they would be "on par" despite the fact that it's reimus job to kill them would literally open gates for other video game franchises with boss characters in there to be illogically upgraded.

its like saying if I fought john cena before and lost badly then I all of a sudden scale to him.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Powerscaling

"Powerscaling is the method of determining a character's power through comparing them to other characters in their series."

"The logic behind powerscaling works much that of transitive relation. In which if A > B and B > C, then A > C."

"So if Character A is stronger than Character B, and Character B is stronger than Character C, then logically, Character A is also stronger than Character C."

"Although a misuse or over extrapolation of powerscaling can lead to grossly inaccurate ratings, a logical and moderate use can be both helpful and essential to properly determining one's power."

In no way shape or form has the bosses within the PC-98 proven to be atleast be comparable to reimu, if anything they're proven to be inferior to her considering she's defeating them. The amount of effort it takes is unknown as well so I all of a sudden jump the gun and put her at that tier.

I don't need to express how convoluted and arbitary all this is.

TL;DR

PC-98 bosses shouldnt scale to the main characters and should either be deleted or revised

 

[MrBreakout]

Bump

 

[MrBreakout]

bump

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Dude, don't bump once every few minutes. We usually bump once every 8 hours.

Anyway, if you want your thread to get traction, you should contact a knowledgeable member of Touhou from here

[1]

 

[Cropfist]

Saikou The Lewd King could likely input on this.

 

[MrBreakout]

Dude, don't bump once every few minutes. We usually bump once every 8 hours.
Anyway, if you want your thread to get traction, you should contact a knowledgeable member of Touhou from here

[1]

My bad lol

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I agree, a ton of video game verses tend to have this. I honestly think only main series characters should scale to the MCs or the characters that did the feat themselves.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

To be fair, is the character did not display any form of evolution or shown that they were getting stronger over the course of the game, it's fair to assume that they maintained their tier throughout the entirety of the game. So if one feat puts them at that tier, all characters get put on that tier.

 

[MrBreakout]

To be fair, is the character did not display any form of evolution or shown that they were getting stronger over the course of the game, it's fair to assume that they maintained their tier throughout the entirety of the game. Soe if one feat puts them at that tier, all characters get put on that tier.

using logical a priori its obvious that she got stronger overtime, its the only explanation of how she would have that jump in attack potency. Also remember the bayonetta analogy, people like fortitudo would scale to bayonetta for no reason, are you telling me that would be the case here?

Soe if one feat puts them at that tier, all characters get put on that tier.
Thats not how scaling works, this is like saying cell scales to TOP goku. Reimu fought singyoku in the first game and defeated him, according to the wiki there would have to be some feat done to put him at the level he is, fighting someone insanely stronger than him and losing mind you obviously wouldn't scale them

 

[MrBreakout]

bump

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Progralic You do make a good point relating to the powerscaling part, its lacking and may need a future revision.

 

[MrBreakout]

@Progralic You do make a good point relating to the powerscaling part, its lacking and may need a future revision.

thank you

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

The problem is that bosses like the ones you mention either are known to be inferior to stronger bosses lore-wise (Like in Bayonetta, I presume) or are in a game where the protagonist increases in strength over the course of the game (Like in Terraria).

This isn't any of those for PC-98 bosses. Reimu's just going through bosses in this order, but this does not make them stronger or weak depending on the stage order.

The game also gives us no information about said bosses being weak or inferior. Hell, one of the ones you're trying to downgrade, YuugenMagann, should be equal to Mima, given your own logic of order of stage = strength.

It's more arguable for characters beyond Touhou 1, but either way, my above points stand.

 

[MrBreakout]

The problem is that bosses like the ones you mention either are known to be inferior to stronger bosses lore-wise (Like in Bayonetta, I presume) or are in a game where the protagonist increases in strength over the course of the game (Like in Terraria).
This isn't any of those for PC-98 bosses. Reimu's just going through bosses in this order, but this does not make them stronger or weak depending on the stage order.

The game also gives us no information about said bosses being weak or inferior. Hell, one of the ones you're trying to downgrade, YuugenMagann, should be equal to Mima, given your own logic of order of stage = strength.

It's more arguable for characters beyond Touhou 1, but either way, my above points stand.

Fortitudo in the hierarchy of laguna wasn't stated to be inferior to anyone, It's obvious he is inferior due to the lack of feats presented but overall in the lore nothing of the sort was stated

"Amongst the spiritually powerful of the Middle Ages, it was thought Paradiso held for all a Divine Will, and as a result, they developed heavenly logic. The concept of the "Cardinal Virtues" was born of this logic, and classifies Paradiso's Divine Will into four broad groups.'These Cardinal Virtues occasionally become physical manifestations of the great intentions of Paradiso, and are known as the Laguna, inspiring awe in the masses. Personifying courage and fortitude, Fortitudo has been depicted as a terrifying being sporting an enormous face and two dragon's heads. He is said to be capable of summoning magma flows at will."


This is all that was given for fortitudo in the lore. Also I'm not stating that the bosses are getting weaker or stronger saikou. What I'm trying to deduce here is that you cant scale someone to another person just because they fought them, especially considering that the same someone who fought them lost the battle. It goes against how scaling works even on this website. My logic isn't the order of stage = strength saikou. My logic is that one shouldn't scale to someone they fought, especially when they lost. It's a logic that can be abused anywhere especially when its something that happens most evidently in shows such as dbs I.E frieza's soldiers fighting gohan, and gohan fighting frieza in revival of F. We know gohan wouldn't scale because he literally lost the battle and its no different here.

Granted some characters in the pc-98 saga could scale to each other, but majority of them (especially the ones in touhou 1) shouldn't have the tier they're at

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

"You can't scale someone to another person just because they fought them"

That's the very definition of scaling though...? You need proofs against the scaling for it to work. Like a characters being established to be weaker, or the fight being shown to just be gameplay mechanic. Not just "they're earlier in the game so they can't scale".

Again, we need a valid reason for the scaling to not count. I'm not knowledgeable about DBZ, but if Gohan doesn't scale, it's probably because he was obviously stomped. You can't claim that on most PC-98 characters.

 

[Wish888]

And then you look at the Kirby verse and realize that it suffers from the exact same problems

 

[MrBreakout]

"You can't scale someone to another person just because they fought them"
That's the very definition of scaling though...? You need proofs against the scaling for it to work. Like a characters being established to be weaker, or the fight being shown to just be gameplay mechanic. Not just "they're earlier in the game so they can't scale".

Again, we need a valid reason for the scaling to not count. I'm not knowledgeable about DBZ, but if Gohan doesn't scale, it's probably because he was obviously stomped. You can't claim that on most PC-98 characters.

You're ignoring the "just because they fought them and LOST" part saikou. You do realize literally every single goomba would scale to mario since they fought and lost right? Unless there was something substantiated that singyoku made reimu struggle then my analogy isnt a false one. Im not just using the "earlier in the game" notion, I'm using more other reasons to prove my point. It's no different from fortitudo and you know this.

Exactly he was stomped rather badly and the same applies to singyoku here. They fought and he lost, heck majority of the projectiles he's firing were meant to be dodged so if anything reimu would be dodging majority of the attacks. To reiterate fighting someone and literally losing to them doesnt scale you to that someone especially when its unknown on the amount of effort put into place, you have to take that into consideration

 

[MrBreakout]

"Character A has a City level feat. Character B lost to Character A, yet still put up a considerable fight, was able to harm him and clearly made Character A exert effort into defeating Character B, then it is safe to assess that Character B has City level Attack Potency and Durability as well."

The onus would be on you to show any evidence that singyoku made reimu struggle. Nothing like that was stated and its literally the exact same thing with other boss battles in numerous video game titles. such as Fortitudo

 

[Sir_Ovens]

But if you can hurt someone on that level, that makes you that level. Look at Frisk from Undertale. He was able to hurt Omega Flowey but in the end, Flowey wasn't even fazed. Should we say that Frisk isn't 2-C? No. He hurt a 2-C, no matter how small the damage.

 

[MrBreakout]

But if you can hurt someone on that level, that makes you that level. Look at Frisk from Undertale. He was able to hurt Omega Flowey but in the end, Flowey wasn't even fazed. Should we say that Frisk isn't 2-C? No. He hurt a 2-C, no matter how small the damage.

I dont agree with the undertale ratings here but looking into your analogy I'm gonna play devils advocate. Flowey wasnt fazed because he used the save option to go back in time to where he had full health. It's literally the first thing he does in the fight. Frisk definitely did hefty damage to him. Singyoku did nothing to reimu and showed no evidence of making reimu struggle even a tiny bit

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Did you not listen to me either? Goombas are consistently treated as meaningless fodders. Of course they wouldn't scale to Mario, who beats up Bowser regularly.

"He was stomped rather badly" utter lie. Nowhere was this stated, mentioned or shown. Pure speculation on your part there.

The burden of proof is on you there, to prove that the bosses were stomped when nothing hints at it.

 

[MrBreakout]

Did you not listen to me either? Goombas are consistently treated as meaningless fodders. Of course they wouldn't scale to Mario, who beats up Bowser regularly.
"He was stomped rather badly" utter lie. Nowhere was this stated, mentioned or shown. Pure speculation on your part there.

The burden of proof is on you there, to prove that the bosses were stomped when nothing hints at it.

The literal point of the fight is to dodge everything he throws at you, you're asking me to prove a negative, I don't have an onus because I'm asking for substantiated evidence on whether or not it was shown that reimu struggled against him, even basic enemies can kill reimu with a hit but she casually stomps them no?Its the same here, only difference she uses more hits to do it alongside the fact that it isnt even her doing it but its the ying yang orb. The burden of proof lies on you to show that reimu struggled and had difficulty defeating him even a slight bit because deducing that she did without any evidence is choosing the illogical option in this false dilemna

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

The point of the fight being to dodge everything is due to the fact that he utterly one shots you if he does hit you. You can't use details of the in-game fight to prove your points and ignore other parts.

There is a world of difference between a full boss and a normal enemy. You can't treat them as the same thing. Unless we'd have to downgrade every boss who aren't explicitly stated to pose a challenge to the player, then this logic doesn't hold. The most basic assumption is to assume that a boss isn't fodder to the main character, at least not by this much.

 

[MrBreakout]

also this is to sir oven, flowey loaded a file to restore full strength. Frisk indeed did alot of damage to him

 

[MrBreakout]

The point of the fight being to dodge everything is due to the fact that he utterly one shots you if he does hit you. You can't use details of the in-game fight to prove your points and ignore other parts.
There is a world of difference between a full boss and a normal enemy. You can't treat them as the same thing. Unless we'd have to downgrade every boss who aren't explicitly stated to pose a challenge to the player, then this logic doesn't hold. The most basic assumption is to assume that a boss isn't fodder to the main character, at least not by this much.

And so does literally every basic enemy within the pc-98 era but we know those shouldn't scale either because reimu is designed to kill them lol, it's how gameplay mechanics works in every game. Fortitudo does alot of damage to bayonetta once he scrapes her but using gameplay mechanics as a logical deduction for scaling is haphazard. We have to have some sort of valid evidence to prove they truly scale.

They both do the same thing, kill the player. You would have to make that those downgrades if the main player defeated the boss. I dont see how it would even be fair why some bosses can get away with this haphazard logic and others cant. The player is meant to fight and kill them, simple as that

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I'm repeating myself again: Bosses who don't scale have reasons for this: either the characters grew in strength since fighting them or they're portrayed as way weaker. This is not the case for the bosses here.

No. Bosses aren't meant to be stomped. Bosses are, by essence, meant to challenge the player aka make them struggle. But even that doesn't matter. The intent behind the gameplay of a fight shouldn't matter. An enemy being designed to be killed doesn't make them millions of times weaker than the protagonist story-wise.

Also Fortitudo's profile scales to Bayonetta. Not sure why you keep bringing him up.

 

[MrBreakout]

Saikou....I brought up the bayonetta analogy because I PLAYED bayonetta lol. Nothing lore wise stated anything of the sort, bayonetta didnt get "weaker" or "stronger" throughout the game, she just hack and slashed her way through multiple bosses who had better feats than each other. It's no different here, I even brought up lore stuff to prove that wasnt the case saikou.

Of course bosses can be stomped. Speedrunners can easily stomp singyoku using reimu and other casual players just cant achieve the same effect. If there isn't anything to deduce that the said enemy being killed was on par with the said protagonist killing them, then the a-priori being used here is obviously false since there's already a big fat hint that the enemy being killed is inferior to the protagonist

He scales to a 6-A bayonetta, not a high 4-C one.

 

[MrBreakout]

I should also bring up the a sonic analogy as well super sonic fought final hazard metal overlord but obviously doesnt scale to super sonic. Unless there's something to state that the chaos emeralds fluctuate in power randomly, but I feel the bayonetta analogy works too

 

[Wokistan]

They do scale to super sonic though. The 4-A version.

 

[MrBreakout]

They do scale to super sonic though. The 4-A version.

I meant the 2-C version. Iirc in the egg wizard fight sonic wasnt charged with positive energy

 

[Wokistan]

That's because the chaos emeralds are inconsistent. Egg wizard is 2-C, so not sure where you're getting at there.

 

[MrBreakout]

Granted I disagree with 2-C super sonic so imma just leave him out of this discussion and focus on this thread

 

[MrBreakout]

That's because the chaos emeralds are inconsistent. Egg wizard is 2-C, so not sure where you're getting at there.

No you dont understand what I'm saying. The chaos emeralds achieve a low multiversal status through positive energy. Nothing of the sort was given in that fight so I'm saying its sorta wonky even there, I also havent seen any official statements of them fluctuating in power but granted this is a touhou discussion not a sonic one, I'll get to him later on throughout the year

 

[Wokistan]

Bosses scale to the player character unless their feat happens afterwards.

 

[Wokistan]

Egg wizard has its own 2-C feat, but this is not the thread for that.

 

[MrBreakout]

Bosses scale to the player character unless their feat happens afterwards.

Singyoku was in the first game. reimu did galaxy level stuff in the 5th game

 

[MrBreakout]

Egg wizard has its own 2-C feat, but this is not the thread for that.

yeah agreed, Ill discuss this another time. Im morely focusing on ramenmu and shin goku

 

[Wokistan]

Is there any indication she got stronger overtime though? Also, you say he got stomped. Issue is, you need to prove that story wise. A boss being easy doesn't necessarily translate to its plot relevance, and on its own is not proof that the boss got stomped.

 

[MrBreakout]

Is there any indication she got stronger overtime though? Also, you say he got stomped. Issue is, you need to prove that story wise. A boss being easy doesn't necessarily translate to its plot relevance, and on its own is not proof that the boss got stomped.

There isn't, alongside the fact that I didn't say he got stomped to anchor my argument, I said he got defeated which shouldn't allow for someone to scale to the person fighting them as there's a lack of evidence on whether reimu struggled throughout the fight or not. The whole profile basically commits a false dilemma and a big one too from my perspective

 

[Wokistan]

You can still scale and lose a fight. Fighting the PC at all would indicate that they're comparable, as we don't just randomly assume the PC no diffs the encounter.