persona/ smt quick scaling revision

[XXKINGXX69]

The cast of Persona 5 should be 1-A by Futaba's palace for defeating Mot, who can survive in a long fight against Baal. This should also remove the low 1-C rating of the phantom thieves. Baal is also a boss fought at Sae's Palace

General megami tensei revision

The demons Oni and sui-ki, neither of which have profiles, should be Low 2-C for surviving strong attacks from Captain Kidd and Carmen. Not sure who exactly would upscale, but I'd imagine a lot of characters who are tier 6 via scaling to the elements or King Frost would be upgraded since Oni is fought early game in a lot of games

Naga Raja (who I might make a profile on) should be possibly 1-A for tanking Joker's bullets. Joker's gun could probably be significantly weaker than his other attacks since Robin Hood annihilated Naga Raja in 1 attack after it tanked those bullets which is why I'm saying its a "possibly". There's also more evidence for this feat potentially being 1-A; Wakaba is stronger than Mot and can take hits from Makoto and the other Phantom Thieves, and Joker's gun can pretty badly harm her. This could just be your usual piercing weapon negating durability but I'm sure its enough evidence for Joker's gun to be at least a possibly 1-A, maybe likely or a full rating since its also amped by cognition. You can see this list for Naga Raja's appearances for scaling. Nahobino fights him at Miyuki Street but I can't recall if this is before he fights Surt and other Low 1-Cs, so maybe Nahobino gets an upgrade too.

Profiles that will be affected:
Sae Niijima (Said to have attacks unlike anything the PT has seen before by Futaba)
Okumura
The P4 and P3 cast I think, and a decent number of characters who scale to Oni or Raja Naga like Demi-Fiend

Sorry if I made too many megaten CRTs lately, I made this now mostly due to the Ren vs Nahobino thread

 

[Lukewoesal007]

I disagree.

The cast of Persona 5 should be 1-A by Futaba's palace for defeating Mot, who can survive in a long fight against Baal. This should also remove the low 1-C rating of the phantom thieves. Baal is also a boss fought at Sae's Palace

With the exception of a few examples, we don't scale characters to random encounters or mini-bosses due to how inconsistent their power is compared to other feats or lore. Using your own logic within the context of the same game, Baal would have to scale to Niijima Palace Phantom Thieves, who would be much more powerful than they were fighting Mot. To apply that reasoning would be too inconsistent with their established lore and causes a recursive scaling chain (Mot = Baal < Sakura Palace PTs < Baal <= Niijima Palace PTs).

The demons Oni and sui-ki, neither of which have profiles, should be Low 2-C for surviving strong attacks from Captain Kidd and Carmen. Not sure who exactly would upscale, but I'd imagine a lot of characters who are tier 6 via scaling to the elements or King Frost would be upgraded since Oni is fought early game in a lot of games

Naga Raja (who I might make a profile on) should be possibly 1-A for tanking Joker's bullets. Joker's gun could probably be significantly weaker than his other attacks since Robin Hood annihilated Naga Raja in 1 attack after it tanked those bullets which is why I'm saying its a "possibly". There's also more evidence for this feat potentially being 1-A; Wakaba is stronger than Mot and can take hits from Makoto and the other Phantom Thieves, and Joker's gun can pretty badly harm her.

I've ready explained at-length in a previous thread regarding why using secondary canon is dubious for direct scaling. Regardless, these are huge outliers and shouldn't be used for scaling purposes.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I disagree.


With the exception of a few examples, we don't scale characters to random encounters or mini-bosses due to how inconsistent their power is compared to other feats or lore. Using your own logic within the context of the same game, Baal would have to scale to Niijima Palace Phantom Thieves, who would be much more powerful than they were fighting Mot. To apply that reasoning would be too inconsistent with their established lore and causes a recursive scaling chain (Mot = Baal < Sakura Palace PTs < Baal <= Niijima Palace PTs).



I've ready explained at-length in a previous thread regarding why using secondary canon is dubious for direct scaling. Regardless, these are huge outliers and shouldn't be used for scaling purposes.

Who said Baal would scale to Niijima palace PT? You can be a boss in SMT and not scale to the main cast. The PT don't struggle with that. This isn't even using my own logic, I'm literally just using canonical feats. Could you provide more examples that mini bosses are inconsistent in power, because 1 example isn't enough? We use scaling to mini bosses already on the profiles (Thor is a mini boss), so you'd have to change that as well.

If secondary canon is not viable for scaling, why don't you make a CRT to downgrade all the SMT novel adaptations we use? The P5 anime doesn't have inconsistencies with the scaling

 

[Lukewoesal007]

Who said Baal would scale to Niijima palace PT? You can be a boss in SMT and not scale to the main cast.

The fact he was even able to contend with the PT would imply he's at least somewhat comparable. Assuming a battle isn't an instance of an outlier (which your example would be), a character would logically scale to a character they're able to put up at least somewhat of a fight against.

The PT don't struggle with that.

There's no indication the Pts struggled with Mot, either. Does that imply they scale massively above a 1-A character despite them not producing any feat of a similar magnitude until that point?

Could you provide more examples that mini bosses are inconsistent in power, because 1 example isn't enough?

Sure.
-The Archangels are able to fight against late-game (nearly endgame) Phantom Thieves, despite the former being consistently portrayed (and stated in-lore) to be mid-tier Low 1-Cs.
-Forneus, who was defeated in Nocturne by an early-game Demi-Fiend, is a miniboss in Shido's Palace.
-Belial, who is comparable to Michael, is fought in Maruki's Palace.
These are just the examples for Demons with profiles.

We use scaling to mini bosses already on the profiles (Thor is a mini boss)

I can't speak for whoever made the profile, but it's likely because of a lack of feats that Thor is used as an AP justification. It might be a bit of a stretch, sure, but that's different than taking outlier feats that would greatly alter the current scaling chain.

If secondary canon is not viable for scaling, why don't you make a CRT to downgrade all the SMT novel adaptations we use?

I said secondary canon was "dubious" for direct combat scaling, again, not the same.

The P5 anime doesn't have inconsistencies with the scaling

lol

 

[Dr._whiteee]

Nah.

Mot is clearly not scalable to his persona later on in the game. So albeit it's a very strong demon, not the 1-A incarnation. Same reason we don't scale early game Persona 2 cast to Buddha at level 20 something, despite seeing 1-A buddha much later on.

Not sure why those Oni would scale. Thieves only became low 2-C when fighting Kamoshido.

So go ahead and put me down as a disagree.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Not sure why those Oni would scale. Thieves only became low 2-C when fighting Kamoshido.

That was after kamoshida

 

[Dr._whiteee]

That was after kamoshida

Ohh, you talking about the bank guards? I can see an argument for that, although it's tough to tell if preset bosses are amped in anyway since they clearly hold some sort of weight compared to other shadows.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

The fact he was even able to contend with the PT would imply he's at least somewhat comparable. Assuming a battle isn't an instance of an outlier (which your example would be), a character would logically scale to a character they're able to put up at least somewhat of a fight against.


There's no indication the Pts struggled with Mot, either. Does that imply they scale massively above a 1-A character despite them not producing any feat of a similar magnitude until that point?


Sure.
-The Archangels are able to fight against late-game (nearly endgame) Phantom Thieves, despite the former being consistently portrayed (and stated in-lore) to be mid-tier Low 1-Cs.
-Forneus, who was defeated in Nocturne by an early-game Demi-Fiend, is a miniboss in Shido's Palace.
-Belial, who is comparable to Michael, is fought in Maruki's Palace.
These are just the examples for Demons with profiles.


I can't speak for whoever made the profile, but it's likely because of a lack of feats that Thor is used as an AP justification. It might be a bit of a stretch, sure, but that's different than taking outlier feats that would greatly alter the current scaling chain.


I said secondary canon was "dubious" for direct combat scaling, again, not the same.


lol

Being a boss doesn't mean they can contend with the PT, some of them can be easy. The only boss here that would scale to the PT are the Archangels, but I ain't gonna lie, what anti feats prove they can't just be 1-A too? Is there anything in other games suggesting Mot is stronger than them?

There's no indication the Pts struggled with Mot, either. Does that imply they scale massively above a 1-A character despite them not producing any feat of a similar magnitude until that point?

Has Joker produced a low 1-C feat in Sae's palace other than fighting Thor? Are you gonna downgrade that key because Thor miniboss scaling is invalid?

 

[Lukewoesal007]

Being a boss doesn't mean they can contend with the PT, some of them can be easy.

Them being "easy" in regards to the difficulty of their fight does not mean they wouldn't scale to the PTs canonically (stipulations aside, of course). Minibosses are presented in such a way that implies they are a threat in comparison to other shadows in the palace, which would mean they'd be able to contend with the PTs at least momentarily. That'd be enough to scale characters in other circumstances.

The only boss here that would scale to the PT are the Archangels

There's nothing to suggest that would be the case --no dialogue that would imply the archangels were more of a challenge than any other miniboss throughout the game.

but I ain't gonna lie, what anti feats prove they can't just be 1-A too?

They're heavily implied to naturally reside in Yetzirah, which is 6D, and there are a lack of feats in other games to support a 1-A rating.

Is there anything in other games suggesting Mot is stronger than them?

His compendium entries, which scale him solidly to the 1-A Baal.

Has Joker produced a low 1-C feat in Sae's palace other than fighting Thor?

Yes. He fought Norn and Nebiros in the same palace.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Them being "easy" in regards to the difficulty of their fight does not mean they wouldn't scale to the PTs canonically (stipulations aside, of course). Minibosses are presented in such a way that implies they are a threat in comparison to other shadows in the palace, which would mean they'd be able to contend with the PTs at least momentarily. That'd be enough to scale characters in other circumstances.


There's nothing to suggest that would be the case --no dialogue that would imply the archangels were more of a challenge than any other miniboss throughout the game.


They're heavily implied to naturally reside in Yetzirah, which is 6D, and there are a lack of feats in other games to support a 1-A rating.


His compendium entries, which scale him solidly to the 1-A Baal.


Yes. He fought Norn and Nebiros in the same palace.

Why would being a miniboss mean you are a threat to the party? Its pretty common for bosses in the franchise to not be comparable to the player or seen as a threat, like Dante calling Horkos a smalltime piggie and treats him as fodder, almost all random bosses of Raidou Kuzunoha vs King Abbadon would scale above Beelzebub with your logic

Futaba states the archangels are a danger. She doesn't do that for every miniboss

Existing in a 6D world doesn't mean you can't have 1-A AP. Do you think you need more than 1 piece of evidence to have a 1-A rating? By that logic we should downgrade Mot because only 1 thing implies it scales to 1-A, same for so many other demons

Both Norn and Nebiros are minibosses, you can't cherry pick which minibosses can be used to scale

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Futaba states the archangels are a danger. She doesn't do that for every miniboss

Can you Link a scan to this? I don't personally recall her saying it.

 

[Lukewoesal007]

like Dante calling Horkos a smalltime piggie and treats him as fodder

This is not a valid piece of evidence, considering the vastly different context (and entirely different game). One instance of a character stomping a boss does not imply any other bosses wouldn't pose a threat. Refer to my next point:

Why would being a miniboss mean you are a threat to the party? Its pretty common for bosses in the franchise to not be comparable to the player or seen as a threat,

They're portrayed to be unavoidable enemies which the party must defeat in order to progress, and the miniboss shadows are often relegated to more important or specific roles in each palace (i.e. Oberon being the Shadow that represents the cognitive version of the IT Company president in Shido's Palace). From the very first miniboss encounter, the Phantom Thieves are expressively tired and somewhat worn after the battle. Later, during Madarame's palace, Ryuji states that the miniboss Nue was particularly challenging with only two party members (at that point the PTs had three members).

almost all random bosses of Raidou Kuzunoha vs King Abbadon would scale above Beelzebub with your logic

Again, this isn't an apt comparison considering the different circumstances surrounding it. The boss fights in the sequel could be explained as outliers or Raidou having a slight power reset.

Do you think you need more than 1 piece of evidence to have a 1-A rating? By that logic we should downgrade Mot because only 1 thing implies it scales to 1-A, same for so many other demons

It's not about the quantity of evidence so much as it is the quality thereof. Mot can solidly scale to Baal because there's explicit evidence (expounded throughout multiple entries) that states the two are equal, and because there's a lack of evidence from any games that would conflict with that interpretation. The angels have solid evidence that puts them at Low 1-C, and are consistently fought before 1-A Demons.

Both Norn and Nebiros are minibosses, you can't cherry pick which minibosses can be used to scale

I can when scaling a particular miniboss (which is likely an outlier feat) causes a recursive scaling chain.