Phoenix Wright vs. Battler Ushiromiya

[Jinsye]

Speed is =

Battler and Wright get into a debate over whether a nearby object is a ladder or a stepladder

No powers allowed, just debating

Who wins?

Battler Ushiromiya: 0

Phoenix Wright: 0

 

[Accelerate420]

Does Phoenix have any evidence on him? What are Battler's debating feats?

 

[Jinsye]

The only evidence Phoenix has on him is the object they are debating and his Attorney's badge rn.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Do they have the typical 3-day thing that Phoenix Wright has in-game to gather evidence (if at all possible)? If so, are other humans in the area?

 

[Jinsye]

Y'know what

**** it yeah sure, both of them have that

 

[Buttersamuri]

With that then, I think I'll have to go Phoenix. I imagine theirs more feats probably, but looking towards Battlers intelligence stuff, while impressive, it doesn't seem as impressive as some of the things Phoenix has done. Phoenix creativity and on the spot thinking, bluffs, and extreme skill at flipping the picture to see it a different strange but accurate way can really help him. With his typical time to get evidence as well helps seal in it. Even on the spot Phoenix has pulled off some good feats. Like in the circus case, someone starts giving him a BS story that he saw his client kill the victim. And he calls it out right then and there and didn't even have evidence on him. Then the time he had amnesia and did know what the case was, who his client was, or anything in general. Even forgetting how to Lawyer. Yet he picked that all up in a matter of minutes and won the case. And this also had a handicap because his client had a supernatural bad luck charm to them. Which was very consistent. But despite being almost as crippled as you can get, Corrupted prosecutor, No idea about the case, no memory of anything, and evidence that made the case seem almost straight forward she was the killer, plus the bad luck charm. Still works through it. So yea. I think I'll go Phoenix. On the spot brilliant thinking and skills to put things together, bluffs, general luck/Skill, determination, and with time to gather evidence and make his case even stronger. Blue Bird FTW


Now I haven't seen this other guy. I'm going off what I can see and what little I know of him. I of course know far more on Phoenix. So don't hate me if I'm missing stuff.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

So. Given three-days is an advantage to Phoenix more than Battler, since according to the profile Battler is pretty much solely by looking at it and snapping his fingers and having an "I got it" moment. That said, we now have to decide whether his mysteries are as generally insane as Phoenix's, since that would be an advantage.

Basically, the mystery in question is just a standard AA one, which means some amount of stupidity/non-realistic aspects are sure to ensue. So I'm not really sure. We've given Phoenix his fair share of advantages but Battler seems to be, by default, a fuckton smarter than him.

 

[Buttersamuri]

Is he now? Why is he apparently that's much smarter? Not that I doubt it. Just the feats I've read on his page I wouldn't say would justify being a frack ton smarter than Phoenix. But some one Phoenix's feats like straight up starting a revolution and other such things, do seem smarter than the things this guy has labeled. (To be fair tho. They aren't on Phoenixs page and that really needs to change.)

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Because, no offense to Phoenix, he can't solve a mystery by looking at it. He regularly displays the need for help from those around him and can pretty much canonically be concluded to grasp at straws until something gives. Battler just looks at stuff and says "Okay I got it, this is the solution, what an easy thing to do, lol"

 

[Buttersamuri]

Well, you got to consider the cases he does face. In some cases, it isn't even about solving, just proving someone did it. There's been plenty of time where that's been evident. And Phoenix has displayed skill in reading right through BS. Like with the circus case. And on a large scale, Id still say his feats are more impressive. Handling large scale things. plus. Handling a puzzle vs handling a murder crime can be very different. With a puzzle, you can look at it and figure out what steps to do to solve it, but with a murder case, if the evidence isn't there, then your gasping at straws. You can make possible theories. But in the end, evidence can dominate a case and change the outlook completely. And without it. It is just grasping at straws. Phoenix may not solve them as fast, but he also seems to handle a larger and tougher scaled issue. Plus is in a system extremely bias against him. Even if this guy is solving puzzles by looking at them, I still don't see that as any reason to say that's a crack ton smarter than Phoenix. Even if he is considered smarter.

I know it isn't considered canon ATM. But it's likely if you put Phoenix in puzzle situations, he would be able to figure them out like he can in the Layton crossover.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I agree, but this is a case of proving someone did it. For now I'm lukewarm about who would likely win. Phoenix only benefits from the time of three days, so that is a major factor, as is the ability to interview relevant parties (even though this is about a ladder and stepladder?).

 

[Buttersamuri]

Well it's about wether something in the distance is a ladder or a step ladder. And Phoenix proved a a bunch of bananas was actually a baseball glove so GG.

 

[Jinsye]

Let's say the ladder and the stepladder led to a murder happening involving the ladder and stepladder.

 

[PinkMochan]

A lot of people here saying Phoenix has better deductive powers than Battler. That's nonsense. Anyone who read Umineko knows otherwise. Having read both the Ace Attorney and Umineko series I can tell you Battler is significantly better at figuring something out than Phoenix is. He's also at least as good as coming up with reasoning on the spot to get out of a dead situation.

FEAT: when Erika trapped him in a closed room puzzle in Ep6 he bluffed his way into the room and came up with a solution to solve it in seconds right before he had to give an answer. It was a solution that nobody thought of and even impressed the Witch of Certainty. Well, nobody but Erika, who shut the solution down with a Red Truth that only Humans can produce, but it was still an amazing solution he came up with on demand because circumstances had changed.

This is at least as good as any of the last minute comebacks Phoenix comes up with in his cases.


Also, Battler solved the Truth of the Rokkenjima Catbox. That's not something Phoenix could do in my opinion. Nothing in Phoenix's entire history of feats comes close to solving that ridiculous mess of a puzzle. He solved it while he was impaled in the great imperial court of heaven and was literally dead at the time. And he didn't need to open the catbox (be there on the scene). Phoenix has shown that he can't solve a case without opening the catbox. He needs to open the catbox, go to the scene of the crime and gather evidence,and get help from various people. He has never solved a crime in any other way. He doesn't measure up to Battler's capaibilities at all. It's bad that Phoenix's debating style relies heavily on evidence pretty much. "Objection" requires evidence to perform. He can hypothesize without evidence using "Hold it" but in the end he needs evidence to use his most powerful technique "Objection." Battler learned an easy technique early on in his career to counter evidence, it's called "Devil's Proof." He can run circles around Phoenix using this technique. You could say that Battler and the Devil's Proof is the natural enemy of detectives that use evidence as their main technique.


As for the actual topic, it's a ladder or a stepladder. I don't know what to say. Is this stepladder on Rokkenjima or in the real world? If in Rokkenjima it's an easy win. Battler just needs to say in the Red Truth or Gold Truth, "That is not a ladder." And Phoenix cannot fight back. Perks of being the game master.

Outside of Rokkenjima in the real world the question is pretty immaterial but Battler would have an edge because he can use Blue Truths to suppose that is is not a ladder. Battler could also claim that when no humans were around the ladder was actually a soldier of god that destroyed the entire world, then use Devil's Proof to block Phoenix's request for evidence that this happened. Phoenix doesn't know Hempel's Raven so he can't counter this.

Battler just has so many more tools to debate with than Phoenix does, and the debates he does are on a far, far higher level than what Phoenix does. Battler debates on metaphysical, conceptual levels and his debates have much higher stakes, they can trap you for an eternity or even deny your very existence. Phoenix really doesn't have anything on Battler when it comes to debating.

This fight would just be Battler toying with Phoenix, the same way Beato toyed with Battler in the first three gameboards. Phoenix wouldn't even know how to fight Battler.

 

[Darkmage2015]

I would give this one to battler, as he would probably continue to argue and refuse to accept the truth without an proper argument. Which Phenoix as shown in plenty of the games would be unwilling to give, as evidenced by every lost stepladder argument he has had in the games.