Photoshop Flowey downgrade

[Verivici]

He's supposedly 2-A due to being stronger than Chara, who is a definite 2-B.

This makes NO sense.

Even if Chara was 10^400 universes and Photoshop Flowey could destroy 10000000000000 clones of them with 1 1/100th of a thought, he STILL wouldn't be 2-A, Is he really THAT many zeroes above them? It sure seems unlikely!

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The reason he's "likely 2-A" is because he's most likely a lot closer to Asriel in power than he is to Chara. Chara is the power of a single (arguably two) soul(s). Photoshop Flowey is the power of six. Asriel is the equivalent to the power of seven.

 

[Verivici]

I guess so, but how can one be "close" to infinity?

 

[Verivici]

Besides, Asriel was stated to be far, far, far, FAR above and like a god to even him with 6 souls, which implies that that last SOUL makes the most difference.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Not "close to infinity", but closer to 2-A than 2-B. Flowey only needed one more SOUL to become Asriel. He was still more than capable of bodying Frisk and controlling reality with only six. He simply couldn't reconstitute his old form.

 

[Verivici]

No, but what I mean is that Asriel is Infinitely beyond Flowey.psd, so that last SOUl gives an infinite amount of power.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes, which just shows how absolutely massive of a difference one soul being stacked on another can make, which is why Flowey's likely 2-A for having six while Chara has one/two.

 

[Verivici]

I guess so.

Now that I think about it, if one human SOUL can give you infinite 4d power, shouldn't Flowey.psd be 1-C for having 6 infinities?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I mean, it's POSSIBLE, but that's getting deeper into the realms of speculation.

 

[Lina_Shields]

A 2-A character can still be countless amount of times weaker than another 2-A character, and still be 2-A. Plus God Flowey completely crashed your game and erased your data, which contains countless number of alternate timelines (resetting the game make a new timeline instead of staying in the old one).

God Flowey is okay at 2-A.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I guess so.
Now that I think about it, if one human SOUL can give you infinite 4d power, shouldn't Flowey.psd be 1-C for having 6 infinities?

I had a thread about that once but it went inconclusive.

 

[Verivici]

i forgot the link

and I want at the very least 1-B smiling dog, regardless how much wanking it takes.

 

[Verivici]

gimme ddat link

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Took me like 10 seconds to get it https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/204546

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

The reason he's "likely 2-A" is because he's most likely a lot closer to Asriel in power than he is to Chara. Chara is the power of a single (arguably two) soul(s). Photoshop Flowey is the power of six. Asriel is the equivalent to the power of seven.

I've already talked about this in other threads. But saying "he has six souls. Therefore is more than two" is NOT an argument.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I've already talked about this in other threads. But saying "he has six souls. Therefore is more than two" is NOT an argument.

It really is for the souls in Undertale, though. It doesn't mean he's automatically stronger, but it means he has far more potential power, which he seems quite capable of using.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well again I'd like to mention that the 6 Human SOULs are capable of breaking the barrier down (With a 7th SOUL that is), which was created by the 7 Strongest SOULs of the time, so it's likely that the 6 Human SOULs are above average.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

I've already talked about this in other threads. But saying "he has six souls. Therefore is more than two" is NOT an argument.

It really is for the souls in Undertale, though. It doesn't mean he's automatically stronger, but it means he has far more potential power, which he seems quite capable of using.

As you said. Having six souls doesn't automatically makes him stronger than anyone. Since the Determination of 1 SOUL (Specially one that is kin with Determination, like Frisk's or Chara's) can surpass the Determination of multiples SOULs. Then again. We have the issue that it is still unlikely to say that he is THAT above Chara. Or even above, in general, but this isn't the thread for that. What i'm trying to say is that powerscalling Flowey with Chara isn't really that accurate.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

As you said. Having six souls doesn't automatically makes him stronger than anyone. Since the Determination of 1 SOUL (Specially one that is kin with Determination, like Frisk's or Chara's) can surpass the Determination of multiples SOULs. Then again. We have the issue that it is still unlikely to say that he is THAT above Chara. Or even above, in general, but this isn't the thread for that. What i'm trying to say is that powerscalling Flowey with Chara isn't really that accurate.

Based on both dialogue and feats, I'd say it's pretty obvious Omega Flowey could body Chara.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

As you said. Having six souls doesn't automatically makes him stronger than anyone. Since the Determination of 1 SOUL (Specially one that is kin with Determination, like Frisk's or Chara's) can surpass the Determination of multiples SOULs. Then again. We have the issue that it is still unlikely to say that he is THAT above Chara. Or even above, in general, but this isn't the thread for that. What i'm trying to say is that powerscalling Flowey with Chara isn't really that accurate.

Based on both dialogue and feats, I'd say it's pretty obvious Omega Flowey could body Chara.

And those are?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Flowey stating he will become stronger than Chara after getting the six souls.

Chara's power was fed strictly by Frisk's own Determination. Frisk could barely even scratch Omega Flowey, and would have been murdered for all eternity had the souls not rebelled.

Chara's best feat is crashing the game, which Omega Flowey also does, and he only lets Frisk come back to mess with them. He could very well have held them hostage like Chara did, but he didn't want to do that, because he didn't want their soul. He just wanted to torture them.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

Lets go by points:

1.-I've already debated this before. Yes, Flowey states early in the game that his plan would make him stronger than Chara. Based on his own experiences. THe one of a Souless being. Therefore he had no way to know how much Determination Chara will have and how much LOVE will strength her. In other words. Flowey's statement isn't absolute and, since Chara has better feats. You can't say that this only statement invalidates every other showing that Chara displayed after.

2.-Irrelevant. Frisk's Determination isn't stable. Frisk was also capable of preventing Full Power Asriel from reseting the timeline.Saying that "Because Frisk (In certain situation) couldn't beat Flowey. Chara can't either" doesn't make any sense.Specially because Chara is the protagonist of the other extreme route. We have no reason to say that her Determination will be equal or even less to a highly desperate Neutral Frisk. And even if we go by potential. Chara has two SOULs, one of them being Frisk's SOUL. And Frisk's SOUL alreayd showed the potential of surpass Flowey's Determination with the Six SOULs. Therefore Chara has more "potential power"

3.-No. No. No. No. No. Absolutly no.

Chara best feat isn't "crashing the game"

Chara best feat is erasing the world and with it all reality. Which is stated in-screen and it's only surpassed by Asriel's also erasing the world by just stading. We don't have any indication to say that Flowey's "crash game" feat is equal Chara in any way. Specially because the first one is stated to be even more powerful. And even Flowey contradicts that because he refers to the world as it still exists. Because he is going to show them (in future) the true meaning of the world to both Monsters and Humans. Meaning that the world still exists. Chara didn't held Frisk as hostage. Chara erased the world (because that was her objective) and when Frisk, the player or whatever being entered to he game after the genocide run she just came with the idea of taking its SOUL for them. Omega Flowey, on the other hand, held Frisk has hostage mainly because he was a sadistic psycopath and wanted to torture Frisk, yes, but he also stated that he needed Frisk to destroy the barrier. Meanwhile Chara erased the world, casually and without the need of any more SOUL (because Chara destroy the world before the deal)

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

1. I'm pretty sure Flowey knows what Chara is capable of perfectly well. There is no point when he is surprised by their power, not to mention there was one point at which they were the same person.

2. Frisk's Determination isn't stable, but that is the second highest showing their Determination has. I'd say bodying them there is pretty solid. Also, at no point did Frisk's Determination show the potential to surpass Flowey's. They just showed the ability to be Determined enough to not immediately be killed by Asriel. Flowey also never uses the full power of the six souls. The entire battle is just him messing with Frisk. He doesn't even have to let them continue to exist, but he does, because he wants to torture them. This only backfires on him because of the souls. It has nothing to do with Frisk.

3. "Crashing the game" includes erasing the world, because it doesn't start back up again. There is nothing there when you try to reenter the game after Omega Flowey takes control. Only your save, which he immediately destroys just to mess with you. In fact, since his plan is to kill Frisk forever as well as torture everyone, he almost certainly can bring reality back as well, as it's also brought back when he's defeated. Also, destroying the world doesn't destroy the barrier. The only person who actually destroys the barrier is Asriel, and he does this while the world is still destroyed. The barrier's durability >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the rest of reality.

 

[Pplherearemad]

Flowey flat out admits that he could never predict Chara. He treats him as his friend, solves puzzle for him and dies while begging for his life. Also Chara returned from death in his true form and reached absolute while Flowey needed power equal to 7 human souls to escape being soulless flower and become absolute god of hyperdeath. How could Flowey predict that Chara will be resurrected as being with absurd power by players desire to increase stats?

Photoshop Flowey never destroyed the world, He simply took over ability to save just like player did at the beginning. After you defeat him World and savefiles are still there and you get the normal ending. After genocide there is nothing.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes, Flowey talks about how he could never predict Chara, but people seem to gloss over the fact that at no point is Flowey even the slightest bit surprised at how powerful Chara's becoming. He was only surprised that Chara didn't actually view him as a friend as was fully willing to off him, which is what scared him.

No, he definitely destroyed the world. It only comes back when he stops being Photoshop Flowey. Souls have been shown to be fully capable of recreating the world. The only reason there is no world after the genocide run is because Chara is basically holding you hostage for your soul. Flowey has no such desire, and lets you come back just to kill you over and over again. Every time you come back, he makes snide comments. Every time you die, he laughs and kicks you from the game, again. His undoing had nothing to do with Frisk other than the fact they managed to get the attention of the six souls, who rebelled against Flowey and took away his power.

 

[Pplherearemad]

And what proofs do you have?

How could he destroy the world if your savefiles are still there even during the fight? Chara destroyed reality by swinging knife so why does Flowey need 7th soul to show everyone true meaning of this world? According to you he is already stronger than Chara.

And why does he have only 10000hp and has to load save after frisk attacks while Chara covers entire screen in nines and you can't fight him at all?

Why is Sans concerned about the end of timespace continuum only during Genocide run? After all Chara brings world back too. if Flowey menaged to do the same Sans should notice this in his reports and react.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Proof of which part? You mean absolutely nothing being there?

Your save file isn't there. All that's there is the world Flowey made ("FLOWEY WORLD") and the files he created and is using to mess with you during the fight. He also didn't need the seventh soul to destroy the world. He needed it to be Asriel, again. That's kinda the whole reason he becomes Asriel in the pacifist ending and not the neutral ending.

He is and has. Flowey talks about Sans trying to stop him numerous times when he went on his rampages. It's from the "repeated neutral ending" dialogues (done by fighting Asgore over and over and over again). Unless you mean why didn't he do anything during the neutral ending, in which case he didn't have any time. Immediately after beating Asgore, Flowey shows up and takes the souls. Sans didn't even know Flowey existed (in that timeline). He wouldn't have been able to do anything.

 

[Pplherearemad]

Your files are is still there, your ability to save is simply overwrtitten by being with higher determination, you can check your save folder during fight. Floweytale? You mean that save with ridiculously long playtime? It's might as well be his old save. Not to mention that Chara doesn't even need saves to live and is completely unaffected by ability to save or even true reset while Asriel needs to get rid of Frisk first to achieve complete control over timespace. And it's not entirely empty, you can see flowey and yourself, after genocide you can't even see game name on the window. And there are few Places in the undertale that look completely empty anyway and the place you fight flowey is one of them. Asriel needed power equal to 7 human souls to destroy timeline with hyper goner and was suprised that Frisk survived it. It's absolutely impossible for Flowey to end entire timespace continuum with only 6 souls and especially impossible to do it within few seconds. You can also manually delete savefiles and normally start a new game but it does nothing after Chara destroys the world. Chara ending everything is explicitly mentioned by Sans, Flowey ending everything is just your assumption.

Sans has reports that show him what happens to timespace continuum, it's the only reason he stops you during genocide run. During neutral route his reports would point out that world ends immediately after your fight with Asgore. He can't not have time because he knows what will happen in the future and he can react accordingly.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I'm pretty sure checking your save folder isn't part of the canon. Otherwise we also have to assume that dumping the post-genocide file which contains Chara's essence is also part of the canon, when it's pretty obviously not meant to be.

Chara doesn't get any resistance from Frisk because you were pretty much willingly surendering control to them, at least until it's too late and they've fed enough off your Determination. This isn't the case for Flowey and Asriel. Frisk is actively opposing them.

Also, I'm pretty sure you can go into the files and get rid of Chara's influence (or completely dump your data), but again, stuff like that shouldn't be treated as canon.

Sans only sees other timelines jumping around and ending. He doesn't forsee the end of everything. That's what he believes Chara is going to do. Since Frisk's arrival, Flowey hasn't been doing much of any messing with space-time, so Sans would have absolutely no way of knowing he would suddenly gain ultimate power and destroy everything, especially since, again, he had no idea Flowey even existed.

 

[Pplherearemad]

Undertale has no fourth wall. Sans and Annoying dog will acknowledge you messing with files, Player is being separate from Frisk and Chara and is sometimes personally adressed. You fight against cheater and have to cheat if you want to win. I normally wouldn't use similar arguments but this game is just too meta

What else "until suddenly, everything ends."could mean if not end of everything? Does Sans has to show you powerpoint presentation? And why is he concerned more about your LOVE than impending end of the world? Sans isn't stupid, if his reports show that everything ends after your fight with asgore that means that someone is planning to steal souls.

And you still haven't responded me why Asriel needs 7 souls to destroy timeline with hyper goner, loudly announces doing it and is suprised by you surving it while photoshop flowey destroys everything while you are completely unharmed and walk on the ground instead of flying in the void.

And where are those proofs about everything being destroyed, Flowey talks like world was still there and he had plans for it. You make huge assumptions without any proof like human souls restoring entire world on their own. This is place is full of bizarre theories like normal monsters being lightstpeed citybusters.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Undertale has a 4th Wall. Said wall is just paper thin, but there are some things that should be separated. Sans acknowledges if you hack the game in the end-of-game call, but that's about it. The Annoying Dog is basically God, so I don't think that part is too surprising.

"until suddenly, everything ends" refers to the end of the timelines he was talking about. He doesn't mean all of reality. In the context of the sentence, he's talking about the timelines sporadically jumping around before they stop existing. In fact, dialogue in the fight suggests Sans doesn't know Chara will just immediately end the world. He assumed they would consume timelines over time until eventually nothing was left. To be fair, this was partially correct, but it didn't come to fruition until after the Chara had already destroyed the world.

Asriel doesn't need 7 souls to destroy a timeline with Hyper Goner. He doesn't even make a big deal about it. He doesn't build it up like some special attack. He just up and does it on one of his turns. He's surprised you lived (probably because as Flowey, he'd killed Frisk with a lot less effort), but that's about it. He was also only using a tiny fraction of his power, too.

Human souls restoring the world is far from an assumption. Chara restores the world after it's been destroyed, using the power of the human soul. Asriel purges the timeline during your battle, but restores it with the souls he had taken before he returns them. There is no reason to assume Flowey couldn't do the same.

 

[Pplherearemad]

Saying normal soul can do something just because chara can do it is like saying that random child from our world could murder entire underground just because Frisk did it. Asriel with one human soul was murdered by group of angry humans. Chara is godlike being existing outside of reality capable of destroying and recreating it at will. He even mentions moving to another world which most likely means other game. Toby typically names his character Chara and Chara is abstract concept connected with player. Asriel at full power can't even kill his puppet Frisk even when Chara isn't backing it with his power and he doesn't even even feel urge to intervene while you claim that Photoshop Flowey is more powerful and Asriel is infnitely more powerful than that.

If souls were capable of fully using their power and work in unison without being absorbed than after every catastrophe random souls lying around would warp reality and souls captured by asgore would just free themselves, bah first souls he captured would just murder him.

7th soul makes enormous difference, You are not a god without it. Photoshop flowey outside of time hax has little feats and lot of your assumptions.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

That's not the same type of argument. Again, Chara restores the world using the power of the soul (considering they're basically a vengeful spirit fueled by Determination, at this point), as does Asriel during the true ending. Why would Photoshop Flowey be an exception to that?

I also already brought up why Flowey and Asriel have a harder time killing Frisk than Chara does. By the time Chara kills Frisk, you've essentially handed full control of them over to Chara. You're (literally) only one step away from selling your soul. Meanwhile, in the Flowey and Asriel fights, Frisk is actively resisting and trying to fight back.

That doesn't even fall in line with what's being argued. Also, the souls turning against Flowey is literally what happens in the canon of the fight. You can't choose to ignore that because you don't like it or it doesn't line up with what you're arguing.

Asriel was essentially a demigod after absorbing a single soul. This is, again, explicitly stated in canon. He became a being of immense power who was capable of slaughtering an entire village of enraged humans in an instant had he not held back. The seventh soul makes a big difference, but it doesn't mean you're absolutely powerless, without it. You're still a being of absurd power. You're also ignoring the fact that, as I already mentioned, Flowey needed the seventh soul to do two things.

1. Become Asriel, again.

2. Break the barrier.

At no point did he need the seventh soul to wipe out the world. That is, in itself, an assumption.

 

[Pplherearemad]

Here is source of your problem: you assumed that Chara has the same source of power and upscaled his feats and gave them to Flowey. Chara in his true form no longer needs stolen soul of Frisk. He was reborn as a demon that comes when people call its name by players desire to increase stats. His resurrection was unique and completely unexpected event and thats why early predictions of Flowey are meaningless.

Chara reliably controls souls determined enough to resist full power of god Asriel even when it does opposite to what gave him control over it in the first place. Flowey can't even control souls that failed to pass through Asgore. Flowey's main power is ability to save and load, Chara destroyed timespace continuum. Flowey has 10k hp, Chara attacks with endless string of nines. Flowey toys with you but is still forced to load save after his body is destroyed, Chara cannot be harmed even by destruction of the game itself and instantly wins against everyone forever.

I never denied that souls can rebel, i denied that rogue souls have same power as absorbed souls working in unison. Losing control over souls is enough to change Flowey back into flower. Recreating the reality is never mentioned just like it's destruction

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

There is no reason to assume Chara's power source is no longer the soul, especially when that was their power source throughout all of the genocide run, along with what brought them back from nonexistence, in the first place.

Again, you seem to be ignoring the fact that (as I've repeatedly mentioned) Chara basically got control of Frisk handed to them on a silver platter by the player. There was no resistance, and if there does happen to be resistance before the end of the run, Chara loses control.

Guess what the souls Flowey absorbed were? Absorbed souls working in unison. He doesn't lose power until they start to rebel, and even then, he retains enough power to repeatedly kill Frisk until the souls completely leave his being. Also, once again, Flowey directly destroys your old save. You know what comes back when you defeat him and he loses his souls? Your old save.

 

[Pplherearemad]

His power explicitly came from player, he flat out tells you that. Power of the single human soul is strong enough to instantly murder entire village and be killed by it after not fighting back for a while, not to destroy reality. Asriel explicitly needed 7 human souls to return to his true form and you claim that Chara despite being dead with only one soul menaged to do the same and he is supposed to be weaker than photoshop Flowey. It's absurd

Chara got Frisk on silver plate when he was dead, Now no matter what Frisk does he can't escape from him despite having strongest known soul and still being alive. Meanwhile souls absorbed by flowey which he got on silver plate too rebeled without a problem even despite the fact that it's harder to rebel against someone who controls more souls.

Flowey overwriting your save means nothing, you do exactly the same to his save during beginning of the game and you don't have any godlike power. This feat is nowhere near destroying timespace continuum and game itself no matter how you interpret it.

 

[Alice_Liddel_in_WikiLand]

-Azathoth. 1.-We already discuss this before. Flowey's knowledge about Chara's personality and behaviour doesn't traslate into him knowing the limits of her determination and how LOVE will interact with her. Even if they were fused for quite some time. They never gained LOVE when they we're together. So Flowey still doesn't know how much LOVE will strength Chara

2.-Frisk only got that level once. Bodying them around that seems pretty convenient since Frisk's "usual" level is never higher than planet. But i don't see people bodying them around country level. Apart from that. Pacifist Frisk's is above Photoshop Flowey and this almost seems impossible to debate. We know from both context and Asriel himself that Frisk's determination was stoping him from resetting the timeline. And this prevails even against Full Power Asriel. Who is still incapable of killing Frisk after another couple of cheers and resetting the timeline. Also, Flowey was toying with Frisk. But not at the level that a "full serious" Photoshop Flowey will be equivalent to a fraction of Asriel's power. Much less Full Power Asriel.

3.-Asriel was also erasing the world and he didn't crash the game. Or even glitched it. And its never stated or even implied to be the same. Also, the world being black doesn't mean anything. When Chara appears the world is black because he encountered you after a fight, but the world wasn't erased, therefore it doesn't mean anything.. As i said before Flowey himself refers to the world as still existent. If he erased the world the same way as Chara did then his dialogue makes no sense. His need for the Seven Soul also makes no sense, because yes, Flowey was torturing Frisk. But he also needed the seven SOUL and he blatantly stated this before his fight. Basically he tells you that he will kill you until he gets bored and take your SOUL. Also, implying that the Barrier still exists even after the world is erased makes no sense. Lets go by points: If we assume that the barrier still exists. Then there is no reason for not seeing it intact in both Omega Flowey's fight and Chara's deal. Since the character in both cases fights were Mount Ebott was located. And assuming that a big shinning barrier was in the middle of the void i think it would be pretty solid to think it would be visible, continuing with that, if the barrier wasn't destroyed then anything that happen in The Underground wouldn't affect the normal world. Since the barrier blocks any interference coming from there. Unless you want to assume that the barrier just locks the monsters there. Instead of being a literal barrier (Which contradicts the fact that Frisk, despite not being a monster needed some "power" in order to get out)

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

snip

This is a very, very different case. Chara no longer existed and was brought back by the will and Determination of Frisk/the player entering the Underground. Asriel's essence was trapped in a soulless body.

No, the player gives Frisk to Chara on a silver platter throughout the entire genocide run. Again, if at literally ANY point before the Sans' fight Frisk spares an enemy or leaves some monsters in an area alive, Chara loses control completely and is unable to get it back as long as that timeline is in existence. They don't get control over Frisk nearly as easily as you seem to think.

Flowey doesn't overwrite your save. He flat out destroys it, in front of you. Which is also besides the point, because the point is, just as in the Asriel fight, your old save/the old timeline no longer existed, yet it was brought back. Also, you don't overwrite Flowey's save by entering the Underground. You take away his ability to save.

@Alice

1. That doesn't really matter, for this. People are treating it as though Flowey had no idea how powerful Chara could become, despite NEVER showing any surprise at the strength they gained. This isn't Flowey making a random guess about someone he's never met. It's him talking about his adopted sibling. In fact, he knew so much about them, he even knew they'd end up stabbing him in the back, but didn't really want to believe it until it was too late and he realized how screwed he was.

2. Pacifist Frisk is at the very least above Photoshop Flowey on a defensive level, obviously. Can't say the same for their power simply due to being completely unable to harm Asriel and also being a pacifist, but that's obvious. It should also be noted that Frisk doesn't do anything but stop Asriel from resetting while being alive and refusing to die. Their Determination was obviously less than his (because he was still the one in control and made it impossible for them to save or load), but it was immense enough to at least hinder that specific aspect of his power.

3. I'm pretty sure the universe having a seizure and going all 2001 counts as "glitching it out" or messing with it, in some way. Yes, Chara encounters you in the now blank FIGHT screen. Flowey doesn't. You simply load the game and there's nothing. Also, see the previous point about souls being able to bring the world back. This isn't really something that can be argued from what we've seen. Not to mention that all evidence points to the barrier existing after the universe is gone. Asriel destroys the barrier AFTER he's already destroyed the timeline, so it clearly still exists in the absence of everything else. Also, the barrier is magic. It was made by wizards using Soul Power. Nothing hints at it being a physical barrier, especially since literally anything can accidentally fall into it.

 

[Pplherearemad]

Chara started as a faint feeling inside a head and he would lose all of his control if he failed to kill even 1 monster. If anything it should be much harder for him to return to his true form than Flowey who had at least his own body and tons of determination injected into him.

I'm not talking about genocide run. I'm talking about pacifist run after genocide run. Frisk reaches peak of his potential, does opposite to what Chara represents and he still remains his puppet.

Ok let's say that your interpretation is correct (i don't agree but whatever), he destroys 1 timeline which means that his feats are still leagues bellow Chara.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes, which is, as I said, why Chara needs to basically be HANDED Frisk on a silver platter by the player. Their influence grows stronger throughout the run, but Frisk is still perfectly capable of breaking it up until the very last minute.

Because the player sold Frisk's soul to Chara. It has nothing to do with Chara's power. It has to do with the player giving up the soul in order to return to the world.

Flowey creates multiple saves during the fight, actually. He does so just to mess with you, as well. There's also the fact that, as I said, Flowey also gains near full control over the game. I don't see which part of this is so difficult to understand. Simply because Chara flat out destroys it does not make them more impressive than being able to control it completely, which Flowey demonstrates the capacity to do. In fact, Flowey demonstrates the ability to casually create, merge, and manipulate numerous saves simultaneously, which nobody else showed the ability to do.