Except, as both me and Tony point out, even if you reason it's all 100% correct in your favor, the very rules of the wiki say it needs to be Optional Equipment anyway. So it's either optional equipment because of what I brought up before, or you're right and it's still placed as Optional Equipment because of Wiki Rules. EITHER WAY, there's no way this scenario ends with it NOT being Optional Equipment.
Tony you gae.
He can only hold two swords and two guns in DMC3. Contrary to the huge amount he can carry in the lore. Interesting, gameplay limitations contradicting lore...
Like having to choose two of the five devil arms and two of the five guns in DMC3? That's also a loadout, and also customisable. Gameplay mechanics directly contradicted by the things we know he can do in canon.
How it works in game is often contrary to the lore, unless you believe Dante who can stuff a motorcycle and two rocket launchers in his back pocket in DMC5 can genuinely only carry two weapons at a time. You're literally referring to a gameplay mechanic that also exists in DMC3 and that is already established to run contrary to canon.
Except DMC3 clearly is different from this because it actually displays Dante gaining the weapons, as well as pocketing them in Hammerspace. This cannot be compared to PoC, which has no crutch.
You do realise that's a design choice for purposes not related to lore?
Including cutscenes with some of the weapons in them, and an in-lore reference to having upgradeable weapons.
All you said was that the weapons are largely acquired using a bonus system. Very similar to side missions and extra challenges. Just because it's predatory micro transactions which are available and encouraged in the game doesn't make much genuine difference.
There is, though. It's literally safer to ignore the weapons than to list them that way. You didn't listen, but I said before that this is a slippery slope, and the reasoning you're using makes it easy to treat items like the Bangle of Time the same way, and as I said already, people in the past have abused this even further to list items like the Bangle of Time as non-canon. And then all the weapons which don't appear in every game would be targeted next, unless it was used to argue PoC wasn't canon.
It’s still not the gacha system.
There legitimately is. There is no bonus mission or challenge. It is not a plot related benefit. It is not a secret that rewards ingenuity or knowledge. It is not a set of weapons Dante can carry all the time. It’s not even something like Nero’s Devil Breakers, where it appears in cutscene aesthetically but is still plot separate. It is nothing LIKE a side mission, or a challenge system. It is a separate, compartmentalized, META, DYNAMIC, PLAYER-SPECIFIC feature. We already knew Dante had a freely upgradable weapon system, and it in itself doesn’t change any factor presented prior.
There’s a difference between a fully customizable loadout based system with no plot related weapon gain Vs gaining a weapon via a boss fight and then having no reason to assume said character’s weapon is limited. Secondly, the Bangle is an in-game earn-able item. It is not the same as spin the wheel.
Sir. Let me reiterate. There is a stark difference between a game having a set of weapons for you to use, fully displayed in cutscene, with player progression carefully curated, coming with full breakdowns of Dante getting these weapons to use from boss battles…and the Gacha Summoning System. There is no parallel. In the same way they aren’t comparable to say PoC’s are more than optional equipment, they aren’t comparable to say Dante’s standard weapons per game are LESS than Standard.
Because I want to be entirely accurate.
You keep saying "gacha" as if that word alone proves the equipment is non-canon or something.
To developers, loot boxes are a bonus challenge.
No, it's a secret that rewards paying money. Exactly like many DLC's, and from a lore perspective, there's no difference between in-game currency and real money.
Game mechanics.
Gilver literally just posted cutscenes featuring some of those weapons.
Like buying DLC's. And having DLC added side missions which are also canon and yield new equipment and abilities. All of which are seperately downloaded from an online store, with a completely META store front and download bar coupled with a price tag. And yet they're still canon. Lots of games feature things you can buy with in-game currency where the store itself clearly isn't canon. It's not the wheel spinning that's canon, it's the things you get from it.
People have listed all the weapons as optional on the basis that he doesn't have them at the start and almost never uses them afterwards in any cutscenes or future games.
You aren't getting it, and to be blunt I doubt you'll get it until it gets used to destroy DMC (assuming that isn't your intention). There's a fine line between items available through micro transactions and items available through completing a bonus challenge that isn't part of the main story. Both are in the game, both are equipment intended to be obtained by Dante in the game. This is a slippery slope.
So far you have argued the following:
I’ve already illustrated the difference between an earn-able and something entirely different. Also, I’ve already stated why Bayonetta doesn’t work as an example, and quite frankly, as I said before, one shouldn’t compare PoC to other series. Compare PoC to other DMC games. Tell me, with a straight (digital…or cyber?) face, that in every conceivable way you see the PoC weapons the same as the Book of Demons. The same as Dante’s weapons from 5. From 4. From 3. From 2, or 1. I doubt anyone can, because they are clearly very different.
And not all DLC are built equal, and given how it works, it’d make more sense to compare it other Gacha games, or skin packs in a battle royale game.
Freestyle came with the Switch variant of DMC3:SE. There were mods for it long before that, though, yeah.
You're splitting hairs between getting it by completing a bonus challenge seperate from the story and getting it by buying it. From the perspective of a gamer they're absolutely different, but from a lore perspective it's no different.
You said it doesn't for very minimal reasons.
You're talking about imposing harsh treatment on DMC, which could very well be taken further, and this idea that every series should be treated as if it exists in a vacuum is the exact treatment that allows detractors to treat one verse more harshly than another.
Only difference between them and items like Bangle of Time and several devil hearts is real money exchanges. And the reasoning can easily be stretched to also attack other items.
You pay money, you go through some store or equivalent that isn't part of the game world, you get an item. That is both DLC and the gacha system.
Because those RPG characters have to do quests to acquire those items and can't do all of them. Because those RPG characters carrying all that stuff is a gameplay mechanic while we know Dante canonically carries loads of stuff. Because those RPG characters can only wield and carry one to three weapons at a time and wear one armour piece on each body part at a time and there are hundreds of different weapon and armour variants to choose from, and different classes/skillsets/playstyles that are mutually exclusive. Dante on the other hand only has about twenty PoC weapons if that, is well established to carry lots of weapons and freely switch between them mid-combat, and the weapons have extensive in-game bios.
Cope
No, even RPGs that allow you to collect everything require this, because the player character is 100% customizable.
Ha. Ha. Ha. It’s over one HUNDRED weapons, actually. The ones included in this hax list are just THE ONES THAT GIVE HAX.
The page actually specifies that it's because those RPG characters have no canon arsenal, not because their equipment and powers can be customised. Dante on the other hand has a long history of collecting all the weapons in his games and carrying them all at once, and even here in PoC some of those weapons appear in cutscenes.
I don't see them as any different. And if you can't give an objective reason to differentiate them which doesn't rely on superficial and irrelevant monetary nature of acquisition, I suggest you stop using subjective view to look at these weapons as optional.
Maybe, that still doesn't change the objective fact that paid DLCs for many weapons in DMC have existed before, which extends to Vergil who wields weapons not at all shown in original or implied to exist. A.K.A Beowulf and Mirage Edge.
The bar guy clearly gives a new weapon of Sawwed off shotgun class to Dante in one of the videos.
Nature of acquisition is completely irrelevant here.
Weapon loadout system is completely irrelevant and utterly useless feature of the games exclusively tied to gameplay design. It runs completely contrary to how inventory actually works in lore.
Just as I have explained above regarding weapon loadout system, let me say this in context of gacha.
You’re right. What’s Dante’s canon Arsenal in PoC? Oh, yeah, Rebellion and his Nell Goldstein given guns. Everything else is up in the air/subject to change/not connected to that/Customizable loadout…in essence, he doesn’t have a CANON LOADOUT for PoC outside of his basic starter weapons.
Sure, you’re right there, I concede there.
No, it doesn’t. It doesn’t apply to “all DLC” it applies to specific additions identical to PoC’s system.
No. One is obtained through the acquisition of a game’s currency after grinding and earning the currency. The other is a glorified Lootbox.
Okay, one, having a 100% customizable loadout is exactly what the rules refer to. The Pokémon Protagonist literally is 100% customizable. So is the Tarnished. Or the Chosen Undead. Dante’s weapon system ONLY contains his natural starter weapons of each game, and you don’t even have to use them in gameplay, with them automatically appearing in cutscenes because that’s what he’s “canonically” using. Outside of that one specific detail…Everything is Customizable. What’s Dante’s canon loadout for PoC? If you ignore his innate weapons, if you TRULY view them as the same, then nothing. He doesn’t have one.
No, they definitely do, as discussed by me prior.
The game informs you of this. This is not “non-story.” The game handfeeds you a singular one, informs you of this mechanism, and then leaves. This is not the same as the Gacha System.
Raiden also has a handband that grants infinite ammo if we take his entire character into consideration. Something that is referenced by Snake in a cutscene due to a 4th Wall Wall break in story when he wears it. A weapon having limited ammunition also doesn’t stop it from being standard. Like I said before, I balked at Lady because an umbrella answer of “Oh, DE,” was given to every PoC character when she explicitly doesn’t have DE.
I concede there because I’m not a Ninja Gaiden Expert.
All of those are placed in separate keys from her “Base,” which would be her standard Arsenal as everything else is player choice. At best your counter reads, here, “Well, these guys did what you’re saying and named it something DIFFERENT, so let’s just not do what they did at all.”
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Valid.
He lacks a canonical set for PoC outside of innate weapons. As he has no Canon PoC equipment…what does that mean, Random?
Kratos’ weapons are not considered that, no. If you were to check his standard equipment, you’d see that each set of weapons are separated by game. He has standard equipment for…GoW1. GoW2. GoW3. Not, standard for “all games at once.” His ABILITIES GAINED are merely listed as one large key, because they decided to do it by narrative, not by game. This makes sense as a few games take place prior to GoW1, before he became a God, the main trilogy, his time as a God, and then when he had access to the PoH. Then there’s a larger break for Norse Mythology, (4-5), because they’re entirely different to the original series. Also, if you were to separate him by Game Specific Keys he’d have 9, which is visually displeasing.
Prove it. These weapons are available in the base game and some even appear in cutscenes. The page says that only characters who have no canon arsenal at all need to have all their equipment assumed optional.
Black Ops 3 also doesn't have a canon loadout picked from all the available weapons. He's given all of them.
Prove it. Both are bought using real money, both are purchased outside of the game story. You've made no relevant distinction between the loot boxes and any other paid DLC. Loot boxes are even thought of as a type of DLC.
In other words one is bought with real money and one with in-game money. These are game mechanics. From a lore perspective there is no difference.
You're overusing the word customisable so you don't have to address the difference between a character who has no canon arsenal at all and has no evidence of using more than a few weapons at a time versus Dante who collects all the weapons in every game, has hammer space that can carry infinite bullets and infinite rocket propelled grenades, and has a history of only using his main sword in cutscenes even while having other weapons.
They also have no canonical arsenal, and can't carry everything the games have to offer all at once. Having no canon arsenal is literally the exact wording being used in the page, and a character who starts with a starting weapon but the game allows them to acquire extra weapons is more akin to the Master Chief, except Dante can carry all the weapons, the weapons don't run out of ammunition, and he doesn't have to take them off the corpses of alien forces.
You do realise that what you're saying also describes the main DMC games, the Bayonetta games, and more, right?
This logic, as I've said already, can directly apply to other characters with weapons from DLC or loot boxes.
You mean like how PoC has a cutscenes showing Dante receiving a weapon, and PoC also introduces the bonus mode where you can get more? Whether it's gained by luck or skill is irrelevant to lore, as is the distinction between real money and in-game currency.
So now Tony's criteria which aren't stated by anyone but him take precedent over the page itself? Those criteria take precedent over the fact that the weapons are buyable in the base game and intentionally put into the game?
So she stores hundreds of bullets, multiple pistols, a submachinegun, a shotgun and a rocket launcher in a single holster, and fires consecutive rockets from that launcher even though it visibly only contains one rocket, but she doesn't have hammer space? Stop harping on the demon energy. She clearly has hammer space. Harping on the demon energy and pretending that overrides the obvious existence of hammer space is coming across as both a straw man and an attempt at gaslighting.
And yet it gives her a choice of any weapon, with all of them considered standard equipment, including ones that aren't found in the main story.
Except it isn't. The weapons are listed as standard equipment, just that she can't carry all of them at once.
You do see how Chief not having weapons that aren't generally used by him isn't the same as looking at the weapons available in PoC which Dante can get and permanently keep if you complete the game entirely and deciding he can't use them, right? Chief has an arsenal he can't entirely carry listed as standard equipment.
And yet it's all standard equipment even though he can't carry all of it at once.
Again, prove it. If the game is entirely completed, along with bonus mode, he can acquire all weapons, and he has hammer space that can store infinite ammunition.
And yet the abilities are still part of his arsenal. Just because the weapons are listed as being gotten from that game doesn't mean they're being confined to it. None of the weapons are listed as lost between Greek games.
You literally just said games that only appeared in a prior game are okay.
You do realise that this is irrelevant from a lore perspective, right? You have such a drive to disregard it solely because of the real money or the luck mechanics, but both are irrelevant.
He can carry a motorcycle, a huge sword, two rocket launchers, a shotgun, two pistols, a hat which fires red orbs, and most notably, he can carry infinite ammunition not just for his pistols, but also his shotgun and those two rocket launchers; infinite rocket propelled grenades. DMC5 also confirms that he's carrying the red orbs as well.
You do realise that the bonus mode of PoC is exactly the same as a side mission or challenge from an objective standpoint, right? All you're doing is making up your own rules concerning what kind of bonus mode can be factored.
And the cutscene showing one being given to him, and the fact that unlike DLC weapons, the PoC weapons are actually in the game from the start and meant to be obtained. His weapons from other games are also never shown in cutscenes.
Gameplay mechanics.
The weapons in Bayonetta aren't referenced either. If you say they are because Rodin tells her to get more, then by that reasoning the gunsmith telling Dante he can upgrade his weapons while giving him a weapon also counts as a reference.
Same as the limit of two weapons in DMC3. Gameplay mechanics.
Bayonetta's weapons never appear in cutscenes at all, worse than PoC. By this reasoning her canon arsenal is her starting pistols.
So the weapons are in the base game, shown in a cutscene, intended to be obtained, but because you don't approve of the shape the bonus mode to get them takes, the weapons are meaningless. If Black Ops 3's player can have a paid DLC weapon bought from an online store that didn't even come with the base game as his standard equipment, then weapons attached to the base game that you have to pay for can also be.
Same as DMC3, a gameplay mechanic.
Easy, just refer five posts up and re-read what I said. That’s not your WEAPON EARNING SYSTEM. That’s your WEAPON UPGRADE SYSTEM. Those cutscenes have no bearing on how you earn weapons in the game. Also, quick question—Did you NOTICE what happened to Dante’s clothes and on model weapons? They were…GASP, replaced because…those are Gacha Weapons unrelated to the plot!
I conceded your point there.
Sure. Does PoC’s Gacha element affect plot? No. You know what does? Doom Eternal’s paid DLC story expansion. DMC5’s Devil Breaker DLC has its own specific lore descriptions by Nico, but you know what’s crazy? None of the DLC weapons are INCLUDED in Nero’s profile short Sweet Surrender…which isn’t mentioned in his abilities at all.
Here’s my problem. You say it’s a lore thing. Calling it a lore thing is disingenuous, because the Gacha system is inherently meta. Taking it one step further, sure, let’s ignore the INHERENT META NATURE of this system. Say it’s 100% reliant on lore.
Okay. Let me break it down. Dante needs to have a canon loadout to not fulfill this criteria. That’s simply how this works. In the game PoC, he does not. Thus he fulfills the criteria.
What’s Dante’s canon-OH WAIT HE DOESN’T HAVE ONE. This is a consistent theme throughout this post. Your response is “Well __”. Where is proof of blank? You literally cannot substantiate proof of blank, because it goes against the very nature of Gacha Games. He literally has no canon Arsenal in this game. It’s a customizable loadout. I’ve stressed it multiple times for a reason. The fact it’s a 100% customizable loadout very much means he has no canonical set of weapons he uses inside the story. It’s variable. Up to change. Identical, in nature, in fact, to the intention of the phrasing and the character in question.
I’ve explained in explicit detail why DMC3 doesn’t apply, which is the only game outside of 5 with a loadout based system, and in said game there’s cutscenes to backup you gaining these weapons, so it has a crutch.
I’ve already handled this.
What bonus mode? Oh, you mean the Gacha stuff, because it’s not a “bonus mode.” It’s one of the main mechanics the game.
The criteria he set makes more sense than just randomly claiming Dante has these weapons with no supported evidence.
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No. That’s why the Standard Equipment specifies her Arsenal is limited in nature, and it just explains what her abilities ARE when considering her entire Arsenal.
Except it doesn’t claim she can. It doesn’t say “this is all standard.” It says “THIS is what is standard, but her possibilities within that standard are…”
Except. It’s. Not. It doesn’t say, “Additional Equipment, Equivalent to Standard Equipment.” It says “Standard Equipment.” Line. Line. “Additional Equipment.” IT doesn’t conflate them. YOU are.
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Already did. Also, should be self-explanatory based on the nature of Gacha Games and PoC.
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I already explained trying to attempt a lore argument is the inherently wrong angle to take in my eyes, as one, it’s an inherently meta feature. And two, there’s no lore element to be had here.
Infinite Ammunition for Dante matters very little. It makes sense to mention it for Lady, but I’m like 100% sure Dante’s bullets for E&I have been confirmed to contain spirits and fire with Demonic Energy, and using Demonic Energy for guns is something we know he can do with any firearm, and use in ordinary objects to enhance them, like the motorcycle.
From an objective standpoint, it is literally the exact opposite of what side missions or challenges achieve and stand for on a FOUNDATIONAL level.
I won’t lie, this last point here makes more sense than anything else you’ve said and I can get behind this sentiment.
Explained these already. You can go re-read the posts for this.
Conceded to the Bo3 Player.
They feature the weapons in a cutscene. It doesn't matter that it isn't the earning system. It wouldn't matter if it was a cutscene of a dog peeing on the weapon.
Sweet Surrender is just a hand-shaped ***** in the lore. The banana things aren't worth mentioning, and the Megaman blaster seems like a joke, although an argument could be made for counting it. Keeping in mind that Nero's Devil Breakers aren't infinite and break easily, so they might not even be standard equipment.
Just because the weapons are acquired through some stupid gameplay mechanic doesn't mean the weapons aren't supposed to be part of the game and aren't supposed to be part of the character's arsenal. The stores and loot boxes are gameplay mechanics, but the weapons themselves aren't automatically the same.
We know he can receive them from the gunsmith, he can collect them as he goes, etc. Lots of games feature weapons that have no cutscene showing them obtaining a weapon. Every Bayonetta game, for example. Strictly there's no lore of her obtaining her weapons either.
Neither do any alternate weapon you equip in other DMC games and in Bayonetta games.
It exists in any game where you obtain weapons through side quests and challenge modes. Many of which are very "meta". You're saying that because the weapons don't get shown in cutscenes that means they never existed, due to the developers not knowing when or if you'd collect them, when that applies the exact same way to the Bayonetta weapons.
Rebellion and Ebony and Ivory count as a canon equipment set. He also has an enormous canon arsenal in all his other appearances. Just because the other weapons he can acquire can be acquired at any point in the game doesn't change things, not when the same is true of all Bayonetta's weapons.
Outside of the main story means bonus mode or side mission. And if it's a main mechanic, doesn't that even further suggest that Dante should have those weapons since you're definitely supposed to get them?
The problem is you seem to be thinking of this from a player's perspective rather than a canonicity or lore perspective. You see it as different because challenge modes are there to reward skill while micro transactions are there to make skill irrelevant. The problem is, in terms of how they impact the character and the nature of items gotten from them, they're the same. Just because one's rewarding and one's not doesn't matter to those things.
You say that, but you haven't acknowledged that him having DLC weapons as standard equipment is not so different from treating PoC weapons the same way.
vsbattles.fandom.com
You should be a bit more careful next time. Because you just described every weapon and item and even select abilities potentially in the entire series.
Can you give us proof because from what I've seen most players lack a large number of those
Same thing as above, give me proof of someone having all the weapons available to play at any moment
Of course, standard equipment for DMC 5 Dante are the only things he has in that game, same with the others.
Gacha is normal. It's ultimately irrelevant means to an end but nonetheless end is what matters.
Define gameplay, because because if you are talking about selection of mission loadouts at start of mission or Divinity Statue..... that's exactly what it is... gameplay, something which we explicitly do not use to limit a videogame character as per video game scaling rules.
Then why even make this thread???
Why is it unsupported?
Gacha is unrelated to story, but it's consequence which allows gaining weapons and it's lore of weapons is definitely not superficial gameplay.
And so are all the extranous abilities out of character like Quicksilver and Doppelganger
I have staunchly maintained my position that it has zero relevance to lore, outside of the fact that it serves as a representation of in-verse devil arm economy.
What most players do is irrelevant.... just like what we always do with games.
Irrelevant detail and question. I ain't talking about what player can do in real life with the game weapon switching.
Cool,
That's the same thing though. Objectively speaking these weapons are like the hearts for the amulet and the Bangle of Time, most weapons in DMC2, and also Bayonetta's weapons and extra items. They are in the base game but not shown being acquired in story. They require doing extra things that the main story doesn't encapsulate. They have descriptions based in lore to prove their canonicity. They are referenced or at least alluded to by something from the main story. Whether you get them or not doesn't affect the main story.
On an equally objective manner of speaking, on some level it's evident from before that the weapons aren't the same as the rest of the main weapons, or the lore-heavy Book of Demons. At least, in comparison to their predecessors.
I just named multiple items from two other DMC games and most items from Bayonetta, with multiple direct similarities, even parallels, between them. The only things raised to differentiate them are real money which is irrelevant to lore, limited loadout (or customisation as you call it) which is a gameplay mechanic contradicted by lore, and chance which is a (predatory) gameplay mechanic. Treating these weapons as optional while not saying anything similar about Bayonetta's weapons or about paid DLC weapons is a double standard.
In all honesty, calling it something different when it means the same thing isn't a compromise.
