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Sniper670

He/Him
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INTRODUCTION
Phew, this is a lot to unpack. I blame Microsoft Office Word for why this isn't in a blogpost. I will link blog when I'm done(will take quiet a while)

Sniper here. This thread is going to go over several things, which hopefully will make Arceus hax transitioning into 5D very believable. The other thing, is the Unown. My biggest inspiration behind this was this thread by @Arceus0x ,which didn't go so well. Okay, lets begin


TYPE
This concept has existed in the Pokรฉmon series since day one, and were referred to as โ€œElementsโ€. Iโ€™ll go over the basic terms.
Also called โ€œTechniquesโ€, moves are the various different applications of the 18 different element types that Pokรฉmon draw power from, limited by physiology or skill. Moving on, the 18 elements are energy that fuels the techniques. From steel energy, dark energy, fire energy several of which are what is used to power the various cards in Pokรฉmon TCG.


ENERGY APPLICATION FOR TECHNIQUES
Pokรฉmon don't just conjure their techniques from out of nowhere. Most Pokรฉmon are born with knowledge on how to focus their powers into performing the techniques.

Itโ€™s mentioned here that Pokรฉmon use moves by first focusing power inside their bodies. Simply put, build up energy and release. This isn't a new concept, and has been brought up several times throughout the series. With this, itโ€™s pretty clear that every Type has an energy source that they manipulate in order to use their powers. Although not every type energy has been mentioned, the notable ones are fire energy, dark energy, spirit energy, steel energy, fighting energy, poison energy, electric energy, ice energy and dragon energy. With this, coupled with focusing "power" inside them, we can easily come to the conclusion that energy is what drives all techniques that Pokรฉmon use. For additional supporting evidence, here are the notable cases of Pokรฉmon manipulating energy to use their power:
For added note, every time an attack is used, theres an energy indication, or a materialization of a ranged attack from the energy. Pretty minor but notable


ENERGY USAGE FOR POTENCY
Pokรฉmon can and have demonstrated several cases where they can adjust the power behind their attacks for higher and lower potency, as well as more energy increasing the potency of their powers. Notable ones include
Speed, Potency, Control, Range. These are all within the grasp of Pokรฉmon in using their powers


LEVELS AND EVOLUTION
Levels are used to gauge how powerful a Pokรฉmon is, with huge level differences causing Pokรฉmon to able to be outright unaffected by attacks theyโ€™d otherwise be weak to. Their strength, speed and durability increases proportionally to the level or experience of Pokรฉmon. This extends to status moves as well, as there are several instances and in game statements that confirms it. From PMD In game dialogue, one can infer that everything gets more powerful (including status moves) as more experience is gained. This is also supported by instances in the anime as well as the Pokedex entries. Under normal conditions, they get significantly more powerful

Evolution brings about significant increase in overall power levels. This happens after Pokemon gather energy to a certain level. A great example is when Kukui mentions the power Lycanrock gained after evolving canโ€™t be compared to what it had as Rockruff.


Mega Evolution placing them far beyond Evolution itself. To put it in simple terms, Mega Evolution is a whole different level of power



THE GODS CALLED UNOWN
The Unown are here to establish a massive layering of hax based off what has been established thus far. And its because f smething simple, theyre the only Pokemon who can stack up endlessly

It's mentioned that a single Unown can't do much (and a single Unown embodied the mindcape of a Pokemon and recreated its entire memories, as well as bfr Ash and others into it... And it was accidental). Simply put, a single Unown can still create subjective realities on its own, with its psychic energy is comparable to a third stage psychic who could ctrl + C and ctrl + P its memories of its past into a world it created and play it like a movie. So essentially, the difference between each Unown would be the difference between an Abra and Alakazam, so to speak.

Five Unown can turn day into night in a town for a week, using the imagination of a girl of course. Can easily create shadow-like copies of other Pokรฉmon. And Arceus himself used them to create 2A beings, and that was mentioned to be just โ€œa glimpseโ€ at his true power . Unown didn't do much here because the person who's imagination they were drawing stuff from wasn't demanding much. What she wanted was granted at last. Now letโ€™s move on

More and more Unown stacking up created such a tremendous amount of Psychic energy that they in addition to Molly's spiraling mental state(who's mind they were extracting things to do) , they weren't able to properly control it until they were calmed down.

To elaborate more on the relationship between psychic power potency and resistances, we have good cases here

To put it in simple terms, the more the Unown, the more psychic power behind the Subjective Reality hence it trounces the previous levels. With even a single Unown being capable of creating an entire mindscape and its power being compared to โ€œnot muchโ€ and a full set being able to imagine Multiverse Level beings into existence. As the number of Unowns that exist within the cosmology is infinite, this creates an infinitely layered scaling chain of, where the stronger subjective reality trumps the weaker, based off how psychic power, potency and resistances work.
The number of Unown to be used in matches would be treated as layers of subjective reality, as well as layers for whatever the wielders can create.


FROM 3D POTENCY TO 4D AND BEYOND
This section describes the energy grows in potency from 3D levels to 4D levels as long as you can stack up vast quantities of it. With the potential to reach even higher levels, as Arceus did to create his realm. Here's the video describing what happens. But basically:

In Arceus Chronicles, Team Galactic used insane amounts of Fire Energy within the flame plate to open a rift in space time. Team Galactic explains that the energy that was released affected the fabric of space-time and they were ready to use that energy to open a gate that will bring back their leader, Cyrus. Unfortunately that energy grew so much that the machine which could handle 4D levels of energy couldn't anymore and it overloaded. Now with the energy cut off, the remaining energy created its own sentient being with enough energy to open a rift in space time with fire.

In conclusion, what matters here is the amount of energy that drives the techniques. Higher enough of it can affect dimensionality as well.

SCALING TO 5D APEX OF ALL EXISTENCE
At the very top of the Pokรฉmon hierarchy is Arceus, who is the origin of the power system that Pokรฉmon use. With his powers being mentioned to be an infinite. He transcends all Pokรฉmon, cannot be defeated as he's the Alpha Pokรฉmon, and transcends everything, as well as being responsible for giving all Pokรฉmon across the infinite universes their powers, or energy, that they use to manifest their techniques that is, this puts Arceus existence beyond the limits of the anything within the cosmology, as all the powers within the infinite cosmology itself are just subsets of its Essence, which are fundamentally 5D since Arceus created a HD realm with its power.

A Universal Energy System has been established, with the energy usage being able to reach higher dimensionalities if its stacked high enough. If the usage of techniques is determined by the energy output required to use said techniques, then thereโ€™s no question that Arceus hax potency will scale to the energy required to create his dimension. So every hax would be 5D as well. The powers of Arceus being given to other Pokรฉmon doesnโ€™t even allow lower mons to scale to Arceus for a couple of reasons . First is that no Pokรฉmon has all the power of Arceus . Theyโ€™re basically given limited portions of power within them, as compared to Arceus himself who has it all and in infinity that surpasses everything within the cosmology. To quote a friend:

โ€œIf the plate that brings out poison itself shares the same energy that affects 5D structures, it is 5Dโ€.


CONCLUSION
1. UES page isn't relevant here, but a page should be added, explaining Pokรฉmon types, moves, evolutions and more with the information I've provided
2. The number of Unowns equates to layers of potency and resistance of whatever can be manifested into reality, as stronger psychic power can neutralize weaker ones and the Unown are basically "We can do anything within the context of the verse"
3. Arceus cannot be reached by whatever layers can be achieved beneath him, Unown or not, as well as the Essence of the power system being fundamentally 5D. This scales his hax to 5D at max power
 
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instead of a UES page, i think pokemon deserves a page for the types in general, i think it fits all criteria for a page

anyway, agree with all of this so far, but aren't the plates scaled to 6D and thus the hax would be? or they are only in 5D
 
instead of a UES page, i think pokemon deserves a page for the types in general, i think it fits all criteria for a page
Yeah. As long as it's put somewhere on the Pokรฉmon page.
anyway, agree with all of this so far, but aren't the plates scaled to 6D and thus the hax would be? or they are only in 5D
The OS kinda predates the power system so it's cut off from plates

One argument I had in mind was that it's entirely logical the OS can empower one specific Arceus to nuke the millions of Arceus within him
 
Yeah the OS is outside of the UES so it doesnโ€™t gain the benefits without further evidence
Anyways a page for the types sounds good
 
i mean't like, aren't the plates considered made of the OS instead of the avatar, if so them the UES would work since the plates are the thing behind it, it wouldn't have the layered hax and stuff though
 
I have plans for OS later. For now we focus on Arceus and the multiverse of Unowns
 
This doesn't meet our requirements for a universal energy system, such as demonstrating that more energy = more durability.

That aside, all that OP shows is that there are Pokรฉmon attacks that use energy and that putting more energy makes them stronger.
That includes the Unown case, where... it's just that they combine their power to create bigger effects. That's not layers. It's the subjective reality version of creating a bigger fireball.

None of this really adds anything regarding layers and the whole "more power = higher D hax for Arceus" thing was rejected multiple times already. This really just picks up on the same arguments regarding that which were already rejected. The issue was never that Arceus doesn't have energy. The issue is that hax doesn't upscale infinitely in potency just because energy does. You have not demonstrated that any of this energy in any amount can cause, say, 5D poison hax. You just have 3D poison attacks, with some more powerful than others, which is no reason to upscale to 5D.

So yeah, all in all, I will refer to this and other threads regarding 5D Arceus hax as for why I reject this.
 
that thread you linked was put on hold, not rejected, plus i really don't remember any other thread being rejected using this argument and not "tier 1 characters should have tier 1 hax"

we have already showed both here and in the hax instalment threads that the energy of the plates is used both for the attacks and the hax they cause, and thus if the energy can affect, create and destroy 5D stuff, so should it's hax.
 
This doesn't meet our requirements for a universal energy system, such as demonstrating that more energy = more durability.
Don't get me wrong. I was under the impression UES was an umbrella term.

Pokรฉmon qualifies for Non Physical Energy System. My bad

Non-physical Energy Systems​

In order to qualify for a Non-physical Energy System and do scaling according to it, a character or the system they are using needs to fulfill all criteria for a Limited Energy System, but for all techniques. Additionally, they have to demonstrate or have reliable statements that all their supernatural or otherwise non-physical powers scale to each other in Attack Potency. Hence an increase in power / energy should correspond to a proportional increase in the potency of their powers and abilities.

That means in particular that either the user makes use of only one system of power (e.g. magic powered by mana) or that the user uses several different ones (e.g. magic and chi) but they draw from the same underlying power source or can convert their power between the different kinds of power sources.
This is true for Pokรฉmon

That aside, all that OP shows is that there are Pokรฉmon attacks that use energy and that putting more energy makes them stronger
It's explained all Pokรฉmon use their attacks by channeling the energy of that type somewhere in their bodies in order to perform techniques

It's explained by the Pokรฉmon Master himself sir.
That includes the Unown case, where... it's just that they combine their power to create bigger effects. That's not layers. It's the subjective reality version of creating a bigger fireball.
Don't contradict yourself.

They put in more power to make it more potent, not just bigger effects. Which is precisely why adding more Unown constitutes more potency that trumps the one with weaker psychic power

Psychic energy is specifically a hax thing. That's what it does. Or you think Mewtwo is comparable in power to Grumpig, he just creates bigger effect with no potency. No

Sabrina's father is a great example where he mentioned he can't do anything to Sabrina because he does not have the power to. Even though he has telekinesis and can reverse the effects of size manipulation on Ash and others and more.

The examples are all there. Evolved Pokรฉmon > Lower tier, with the relationship between evolved and Pre evolved Pokรฉmon being connnected to receiving more psychic power

Aside from that the more psychic energy you have, the more potent the things you can already do are. That's precisely why many third stage psychic Pokรฉmon are mentioned in dex to be able to do some crazy things like create blackholes, warp reality, transmute, see very far into the future, being able to see the course of life, Grumpig specifically amplifies his psychic energy waves to make it potent enough to begin to mind hax, and the more of it = More potency exerted on that in addition to being able to do more things with it. etc etc


Now the Unown SR are fuelled by this psychic energy. If they were both to do the exact same thing, stronger psychic power trumps weaker power. Which is something I proved in the relationship between psychic power, potency and resistances

Aside from that , there are infinite Unown so besides the layers, this stretches the potency to infinity so it'll still bypass the layers of any finite number anyway.

At the end of the day, Arceus will still be inaccessible to it on a 4D level.

And before you go that's high 3A, every Unown possesses 4D power on its own.

Add the fact that Unown can achieve virtually any effect, hax or otherwise within the cosmology and Arceus is simply unstoppable on a 4D level.
None of this really adds anything regarding layers and the whole "more power = higher D hax for Arceus" thing was rejected multiple times already. This really just picks up on the same arguments regarding that which were already rejected. The issue was never that Arceus doesn't have energy. The issue is that hax doesn't upscale infinitely in potency just because energy does.
But it does. I don't get your argument here

The energy is constant, the applications are varied

Now Arceus has shown he can use 5D energy to create 5D dimension

So all he has to do is to drive every technique with the 5D energy he's shown to be able to use

Is that not it?

We're not saying Arceus is low 1c that means all his hax must be with no reason behind it, we're saying he can use this 5D energy for other techniques at a 5D level. Don't confuse the 2
You have not demonstrated that any of this energy in any amount can cause, say, 5D poison hax. You just have 3D poison attacks, with some more powerful than others, which is no reason to upscale to 5D.
They use energy. Which they channel to use their powers. Every Type is energy

Arceus channels this energy to create his dimension. His hax has 5D potency. That's my argument here

You've not refuted my argument. The poison Arceus is using isn't 3D now because I've proven the energy that Arceus uses can reach 5D potency.

The Morphing Grid acts the same way.

It pulls from a higher dimensional energy (Arceus Plates have shown 5D potency, which is the essence of the energy for applications of all powers beneath Heart). If Arceus is capable of pulling it out on a 5D level, everything will be. It also helps that these powers are parts of him

So what you're doing here is denying access to his own power at a 5D level when he's shown he can use it at that level.

In conclusion stop putting Arceus hax at 3D level.

Are Pokรฉmon deriving their power from Arceus or its the other way round?
So yeah, all in all, I will refer to this and other threads regarding 5D Arceus hax as for why I reject this.
Wait. It wasn't rejected. You didn't return and you were in the minority actually. The thread just died. And it wasn't even the same as this at all. Read Kukui's arguments and supporting evidence and compare it to mine. No offense Kukui
 
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that thread you linked was put on hold, not rejected, plus i really don't remember any other thread being rejected using this argument and not "tier 1 characters should have tier 1 hax"

we have already showed both here and in the hax instalment threads that the energy of the plates is used both for the attacks and the hax they cause, and thus if the energy can affect, create and destroy 5D stuff, so should it's hax.
Exactly. ๐Ÿ™
 
Interesting stuff, I will keep an eye on this thread.

d34.jpg
 
At best, the individual types can quality as limited energy systems based on DontTalkDT's interpretation, which is a sub form of universal energy systems. It's limited to like the attack strength of that respective type and durability.
 
At best, the individual types can quality as limited energy systems based on DontTalkDT's interpretation, which is a sub form of universal energy systems. It's limited to like the attack strength of that respective type and durability.
Nvm. I think Limited is fine. Arceus has all the sources anyway,


What do you think about the other proposals:
1. Unown
2. Arceus 5D scaling

BTW, sorry for constantly modifying text. Pokรฉmon of comparable power but of different types can cancel out each others attacks by outputting the same power at each other. Shouldn't that apply for non physical universal energy system? And they can tank them as well. The very idea behind leveling up increases their statistics including the power they can output in their attacks
 
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We........ need an introduction bro?
The Types are a 18 different energy sources that everything within the Pokรฉmon cosmology draw power from to use their techniquest. As mentioned earlier, the power is available to everyone, but Pokรฉmon are the prominent users in that they're born with the ability to channel energy from these sources to perform various, and often incredible techniques.

Is this okay?
 
Don't get me wrong. I was under the impression UES was an umbrella term.

Pokรฉmon qualifies for Non Physical Energy System. My bad


This is true for Pokรฉmon


It's explained all Pokรฉmon use their attacks by channeling the energy of that type somewhere in their bodies in order to perform techniques

It's explained by the Pokรฉmon Master himself sir.

Don't contradict yourself.

They put in more power to make it more potent, not just bigger effects. Which is precisely why adding more Unown constitutes more potency that trumps the one with weaker psychic power

Psychic energy is specifically a hax thing. That's what it does. Or you think Mewtwo is comparable in power to Grumpig, he just creates bigger effect with no potency. No

Sabrina's father is a great example where he mentioned he can't do anything to Sabrina because he does not have the power to. Even though he has telekinesis and can reverse the effects of size manipulation on Ash and others and more.

The examples are all there. Evolved Pokรฉmon > Lower tier, with the relationship between evolved and Pre evolved Pokรฉmon being connnected to receiving more psychic power

Aside from that the more psychic energy you have, the more potent the things you can already do are. That's precisely why many third stage psychic Pokรฉmon are mentioned in dex to be able to do some crazy things like create blackholes, warp reality, transmute, see very far into the future, being able to see the course of life, Grumpig specifically amplifies his psychic energy waves to make it potent enough to begin to mind hax, and the more of it = More potency exerted on that in addition to being able to do more things with it. etc etc


Now the Unown SR are fuelled by this psychic energy. If they were both to do the exact same thing, stronger psychic power trumps weaker power. Which is something I proved in the relationship between psychic power, potency and resistances

Aside from that , there are infinite Unown so besides the layers, this stretches the potency to infinity so it'll still bypass the layers of any finite number anyway.

At the end of the day, Arceus will still be inaccessible to it on a 4D level.

And before you go that's high 3A, every Unown possesses 4D power on its own.

Add the fact that Unown can achieve virtually any effect, hax or otherwise within the cosmology and Arceus is simply unstoppable on a 4D level.

But it does. I don't get your argument here

The energy is constant, the applications are varied

Now Arceus has shown he can use 5D energy to create 5D dimension

So all he has to do is to drive every technique with the 5D energy he's shown to be able to use

Is that not it?

We're not saying Arceus is low 1c that means all his hax must be with no reason behind it, we're saying he can use this 5D energy for other techniques at a 5D level. Don't confuse the 2

They use energy. Which they channel to use their powers. Every Type is energy

Arceus channels this energy to create his dimension. His hax has 5D potency. That's my argument here

You've not refuted my argument. The poison Arceus is using isn't 3D now because I've proven the energy that Arceus uses can reach 5D potency.

The Morphing Grid acts the same way.

It pulls from a higher dimensional energy (Arceus Plates have shown 5D potency, which is the essence of the energy for applications of all powers beneath Heart). If Arceus is capable of pulling it out on a 5D level, everything will be. It also helps that these powers are parts of him

So what you're doing here is denying access to his own power at a 5D level when he's shown he can use it at that level.

In conclusion stop putting Arceus hax at 3D level.

Are Pokรฉmon deriving their power from Arceus or its the other way round?

Wait. It wasn't rejected. You didn't return and you were in the minority actually. The thread just died. And it wasn't even the same as this at all. Read Kukui's arguments and supporting evidence and compare it to mine. No offense Kukui
That's all just the same old rejected argument of "There is a spell with 3D hax. I cast it with 5D energy, so it should now be 5D hax" which is already been rejected multiple times.

The evidence you brought up in addition just doesn't factor into that. There are new spells that you can only cast once you have enough energy to do so? Great, doesn't factor into the issue.

There are spells that you can make stronger by investing more energy in? Also cool, but not relevant evidence for a dimension jump.

You are trying to use 3D powerscaling arguments to justify the assumption that the techniques fundamentally change their very nature to be higher dimensional by putting more energy into the same 3D technique.

So yeah, it's nothing new and my position remains the same.
 
That's all just the same old rejected argument of "There is a spell with 3D hax. I cast it with 5D energy, so it should now be 5D hax" which is already been rejected multiple times.
The evidence you brought up in addition just doesn't factor into that. There are new spells that you can only cast once you have enough energy to do so? Great, doesn't factor into the issue.

There are spells that you can make stronger by investing more energy in? Also cool, but not relevant evidence for a dimension jump.

You are trying to use 3D powerscaling arguments to justify the assumption that the techniques fundamentally change their very nature to be higher dimensional by putting more energy into the same 3D technique.

So yeah, it's nothing new and my position remains the same.
Okay?

1. Kukuis argument is entirely different. Refrain from bringing it up
2. . Reading what you just wrote "doesn't factor here" 0 reason why it doesn't factor. It doesn't factor because DT says it doesn't. How does this make for a compelling rebuttals
3. You didn't even address my argument.

Yes they do. Arceus proved it by using this same energy to create his higher dimensional realm. Are you saying Arceus used 3D energy to create it?

Moving on. The fact that Arceus can draw energy from it at a 5D level proves the energy is 5D fundamentally. So his techniques will scale. Simple.

Unless you want to argue the 5D energy which is part of a Universal Energy System is only used for creating a realm and nothing more, prove that. I have an argument on my side, Arceus can output +5 energy (5D) for X techniques so he can output +5 for other techniques due to how the energy system works

Anyway, here's Kukui's argument. I'd strongly suggest DT don't bring that up, it's not equivalent
 
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Good start.
The Types are a 18 different energy sources that everything within the Pokรฉmon cosmology draw power from to use their techniquest. As mentioned earlier, the power is available to everyone, but Pokรฉmon are the prominent users in that they're born with the ability to channel energy from these sources to perform various, and often incredible techniques. 18 elements of which are: Dark, Water, Electric, Ghost, Fighting, Flying, Psychic, Steel, Rock, Ground, Poison, Normal, Bug, Grass, Ice, Dragon, Fire and Fairy Types. In addition, by leveling up and gaining experience, this leads to an increase in power of these Types, as well as their overall statistics. Overall it's a sophisticated but nevertheless, brilliant power system
 
calling them "3D techniques" makes no sense when some pokemon moves can warp space and time, both of which are 4D, hell, palkia and dialga are still bound by the types despite their main abilities being 4D, reminder that pokemon moves have also affected spacetime distortions as well in the anime and i think even the games (the links are dead though, we gotta recheck that)

they aren't bound by dimensionality, they are bound by the energy they use, and i'm bringing up the HDE page again, and look at the invulnerability part

Due to the additional axis spatially inherent to them, higher-dimensional objects are comprised of more information than what can normally be described in lower-dimensional spaces, and thus may only be capable of interacting with them through lower-dimensional "slices" or cross-sections of their bodies.

the only thing stopping lower D hax from affecting them is size

and even with actual tier 1, having a different physiology is not needed, something uncountably infinitely bigger or stronger can reach tier 1, no need to be infinitely more complex, so if a poison is made of tier 1 energy, it can affect tier 1 stuff just as much as the energy can, it just affects them differently, it already went past both the ap and range needed.
 
Continue what you're doing. I'll be looking into better quotes
 
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BUMP. CRT's still new. I added another section to the crt that will help my argument very well.

In Arceus Chronicles, Team Galactic used insane amounts of Fire Energy within the flame plate to open a rift in space time. Enough to open a rift, any less will fail. Team Galactic explains that the energy that was released affected the fabric of space-time and they were ready to use that energy to open a gate that will bring back their leader, Cyrus. Unfortunately that energy grew so much that the machine which could handle 4D levels of energy couldn't anymore and it overloaded. Now with the energy cut off, the remaining energy created its own sentient being with enough energy to open a rift in space time with fire.

So to answer DT. Yes, the techniques fundamentally change their very nature to be higher dimensional by putting more energy into the same 3D technique.
 
Honestly, I'm surprised discussion petered out so quickly. I am interested in this topic myself, but I don't feel ready to go into something with so much to go over currently.
 
This thread died so fast. Most of the staff I messaged didn't reply. I guess we wait
 
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