Pokemon Tier Questions

[Mickey1940]

How exactly are different Pokemon put into the tiering system? I mean, what dictates whether or not they are 8A, High 7C, or 7A?

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

8-C Pokemon are baby Pokemon and thus comparable to others like Riolu

8-A Pokemon are First form Pokemon and thus comparable to Pokemon like Charmander and Pidgey

High 7-C Pokemon are Mid stage Pokemon and thus comparable to Pokemon like Wartortle, an exception to this is the mid stages of the psuedo legendary Pokemon, who scale to to Pupitar's 7-A feat

7-A Pokemon are final stage Pokemon, and thus comparable to Pokémon like Vaporeon or Tyranitar, who upscale from Pupitar's 7-A feat

 

[Mickey1940]

8-C Pokemon are baby Pokemon and thus comparable to others like Riolu
8-A Pokemon are First form Pokemon and thus comparable to Pokemon like Charmander and Pidgey

High 7-C Pokemon are Mid stage Pokemon and thus comparable to Pokemon like Wartortle, an exception to this is the mid stages of the psuedo legendary Pokemon, who scale to to Pupitar's 7-A feat

7-A Pokemon are final stage Pokemon, and thus comparable to Pokémon like Vaporeon or Tyranitar, who upscale from Pupitar's 7-A feat

what about Pokemon with no evolutions like Drampa or Tauros? Why are they High 7C? I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but I can't see enough evidence justifying their tiers

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

I myself don't know the specifics for why they are tiered that way, you might wanna ask someone more experienced with tiering Pokemon, as I only know generally what most Pokemon are scaled to, not the reason why others like Tauros are scaled to mid forms and not final forms

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Pretty much exactly what Glaceon says.

 

[Mickey1940]

wait, his first comment or the second one?

cause I'm still confused about some nonevolving pokemon

plus not all mid-stage Pseudo Legends are 7A. Gabite, Zwelious, and Sliggoo are all High 7C. The only 7A pseudo-legend mid-evo is Pupitar

also what about the early-game bugs? why are they only High 7C

and what about evolving Pokemon like Sudowoodo, Raticate, Shedinja, Ninjask, ibarel, and more? why are they only High 7C


In hindsight I should have asked these questions earlier.

 

[Mickey1940]

bump

 

[Quibster]

What's the justification for Zeraora being 4-B Solar System Class?

Edit: He scales higher than base Mewtwo and Deoxys. He's also in the same tier as the S/M box-art Legendaries, and he's a Mythical Pokemon.

 

[HenryWong122]

8-C: All baby Pokemon are this tier because they can harm Cleffa whose durability is 24502500000 Joules = 5.9 Tons of TNT = Large Building level for tanking meteor impacts.

8-A: All basic Pokemon are comparable to Horsea's 3e+12 J / 717.017208413 Tons of TNT, Multi-City Block level+ AP via Twister.

High 7-C: All first stage Pokemon are comparable to Dawn's Piplup whose AP is 5.482550496 x 10^14 J via Whirlpool.

7-A: All second stage aka final Stage Pokemon are comparable to Charizard whose AP is 3.3066976e+18 Joules or 790.31 Megatons of TNT (Mountain level+) via Flamethrower.

 

[Mickey1940]

8-C: All baby Pokemon are this tier because they can harm Cleffa whose durability is 24502500000 Joules = 5.9 Tons of TNT = Large Building level for tanking meteor impacts.
8-A: All basic Pokemon are comparable to Horsea's 3e+12 J / 717.017208413 Tons of TNT, Multi-City Block level+ AP via Twister.

High 7-C: All first stage Pokemon are comparable to Dawn's Piplup whose AP is 5.482550496 x 10^14 J via Whirlpool.

7-A: All second stage aka final Stage Pokemon are comparable to Charizard whose AP is 3.3066976e+18 Joules or 790.31 Megatons of TNT (Mountain level+) via Flamethrower.

This isn't my question

My question is that some Pokemon lack justification for their tiers, like non-evolved pokemon like Tauros and Drampa, as well as max-evolved early-game bugs like Butterfree and Beedrill. I don't understand their justification to their tiers

 

[HenryWong122]

8-C: All baby Pokemon are this tier because they can harm Cleffa whose durability is 24502500000 Joules = 5.9 Tons of TNT = Large Building level for tanking meteor impacts.
8-A: All basic Pokemon are comparable to Horsea's 3e+12 J / 717.017208413 Tons of TNT, Multi-City Block level+ AP via Twister.

High 7-C: All first stage Pokemon are comparable to Dawn's Piplup whose AP is 5.482550496 x 10^14 J via Whirlpool.

7-A: All second stage aka final Stage Pokemon are comparable to Charizard whose AP is 3.3066976e+18 Joules or 790.31 Megatons of TNT (Mountain level+) via Flamethrower.

This isn't my question
My question is that some Pokemon lack justification for their tiers, like non-evolved pokemon like Tauros and Drampa, as well as max-evolved early-game bugs like Butterfree and Beedrill. I don't understand their justification to their tiers

Every Mid-Stage Psuedo-Legendary Pokemon instead of being scaled to Pupitar's 7-A feat is scaled to Dawn's Piplup's High 7-C Feat.

From Beedrill's page

Large Town level (Via scaling to Dawn's Piplup, who is comparable to second-stage Pokémon. Being the strongest of all the early game bug final evolutions, it should be comparable to other middle stage Pokémon like Charmeleo)

From Tauros' page

Large Town level (Can knock down thick trees and destroy rock formations by charging into them. Comparable to the likes of Charmeleo and Butterfree)

From Drampa's page

Large Town level (Capable of creating tornado and hurricane-force winds. Comparable to Cryogonal)

DOES THAT ANSWER YOUR QUESTION FOR THOSE POKEMON???

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

One of my biggest pet peeves with this verse is that the powerscaling is handled so inefficiently.

Drampa's page says "comparable to Cryogonal". Cryogonal's page says "comparable to Magneton". Magneton's profile says "comparable to Dawn's Piplup".

Why not just link the Piplup feat in Drampa's page? It saves the reader so much time and causes less confusion.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

In the profile's defense, they used to scale to Magneton when its feat was the one worth scaling to.

 

[Mickey1940]

8-C: All baby Pokemon are this tier because they can harm Cleffa whose durability is 24502500000 Joules = 5.9 Tons of TNT = Large Building level for tanking meteor impacts.
8-A: All basic Pokemon are comparable to Horsea's 3e+12 J / 717.017208413 Tons of TNT, Multi-City Block level+ AP via Twister.

High 7-C: All first stage Pokemon are comparable to Dawn's Piplup whose AP is 5.482550496 x 10^14 J via Whirlpool.

7-A: All second stage aka final Stage Pokemon are comparable to Charizard whose AP is 3.3066976e+18 Joules or 790.31 Megatons of TNT (Mountain level+) via Flamethrower.

This isn't my question
My question is that some Pokemon lack justification for their tiers, like non-evolved pokemon like Tauros and Drampa, as well as max-evolved early-game bugs like Butterfree and Beedrill. I don't understand their justification to their tiers

Every Mid-Stage Psuedo-Legendary Pokemon instead of being scaled to Pupitar's 7-A feat is scaled to Dawn's Piplup's High 7-C Feat.
From Beedrill's page

Large Town level (Via scaling to Dawn's Piplup, who is comparable to second-stage Pokémon. Being the strongest of all the early game bug final evolutions, it should be comparable to other middle stage Pokémon like Charmeleo)

From Tauros' page

Large Town level (Can knock down thick trees and destroy rock formations by charging into them. Comparable to the likes of Charmeleo and Butterfree)

From Drampa's page

Large Town level (Capable of creating tornado and hurricane-force winds. Comparable to Cryogonal)

DOES THAT ANSWER YOUR QUESTION FOR THOSE POKEMON???

sorry but no

Drampa I can under somewhat cause it has feats at High 7C, but WHY are some pokemon scaled to others? Like, WHY is Beedrill treated like a second-evolution pokemon? and WHY is Tauros treated like a second-evolution pokemon?

I know that my questions are beginning to become annoying, but this is just something that I don't understand. So sorry

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I'll answer them in due time.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:ArbitraryNumbers/Pokemon_Template_Profile

I just made a template profile that should clear up a lot of confusion and make it easier to produce more profiles in the future.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

We assume that every Pokemon, with some exceptions, can fight on par with every other Pokemon when trained, but only with the confines of their evolutionary stages. In other words, first stage basic Pokemon that you're likely to encounter earlier in the game are probably on par with each other, and the same thing goes for fully-evolved Pokemon you're likely to encounter later in the game.

For the Pokemon who don't evolve, we kind of operate on a case-by-case basis. For example,Tauros is a big, strong, bulky Pokemon and you're most likely not going to encounter it at the beginning of the game like a weak little Pidgey, so we can assume that it's at least on par with Mid-Stages.

Beedrill reaches max evolution extremely early, and its two previous evolutions are very weak by the standards of other first and mid stage Pokemon. You're likely to encounter all three in some form before you even beat the first gym, so we can assume that Beedrill isn't on the level of most full-evolved Pokemon.

I'm kind of iffy on the general approach we take to scaling too as it seems to involve a lot of assumptions, but the anime is extremely inconsistent and unreliable, datamining stats is even moreso, and if we operated solely on Pokedex entries we'd have 9-B Nidoking, 8-C Rhyhorn, 4-A Gothitelle, and a whole lotta Unknown ratings.

So needless to say, I think this is the best we have currently.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Question. Would Pikachu be upgraded to High 7-A for overpowering a combined Hyper Beam by a Tyranitar and Gyarados in the recent episode? To my understanding, Tyranitar is 531 Megatons and we have no reason to believe its AP would be lower when using Hyper Beam. Gyarados is also considered 7-A for scaling to Charizard (who is 790.3 Megatons with its flames) and considered comparable to Tyranitar (who is, obviously, 531 Megatons).

Baseline High 7-A is 1 Gigaton, and a combined Hyper Beam by Tyranitar and Gyarados should equate to at least 1062 Megatons or 1.062 Gigatons. Pikachu also has a lot of reason to be much stronger at the start of PM 2019, considering it underwent a lot of training and development in SM from being blitzed by Tapu Koko to outspeeding Tapu Koko by the end of the series.

Overall, it seems very reasonable to scale Anime Pikachu to baseline High 7-A, higher with Electricity and Z-Moves.

Asking here due to thread concerning Pokemon tiering logic and its consistency.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

I can't really comment on that as I don't follow the anime well at all.

 

[Mickey1940]

We assume that every Pokemon, with some exceptions, can fight on par with every other Pokemon when trained, but only with the confines of their evolutionary stages. In other words, first stage basic Pokemon that you're likely to encounter earlier in the game are probably on par with each other, and the same thing goes for fully-evolved Pokemon you're likely to encounter later in the game.
For the Pokemon who don't evolve, we kind of operate on a case-by-case basis. For example,Tauros is a big, strong, bulky Pokemon and you're most likely not going to encounter it at the beginning of the game like a weak little Pidgey, so we can assume that it's at least on par with Mid-Stages.

Beedrill reaches max evolution extremely early, and its two previous evolutions are very weak by the standards of other first and mid stage Pokemon. You're likely to encounter all three in some form before you even beat the first gym, so we can assume that Beedrill isn't on the level of most full-evolved Pokemon.

I'm kind of iffy on the general approach we take to scaling too as it seems to involve a lot of assumptions, but the anime is extremely inconsistent and unreliable, datamining stats is even moreso, and if we operated solely on Pokedex entries we'd have 9-B Nidoking, 8-C Rhyhorn, 4-A Gothitelle, and a whole lotta Unknown ratings.

So needless to say, I think this is the best we have currently.

Then can we have a separate scaling for trained pokemon? cause both Beedrill and Tauros can compete with high-tier final evolutions in the mid-to-late game

I'm thinking like "At least High 7C, potentially 7A"

 

[Mickey1940]

bump

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Whether or not Pokemon can "compete" with late game 3rd-stages isn't concrete, since just about any Pokemon can do it, or even solo the entire game if you have the right strategy and train it in just the right way.

If we make exceptions based on that argument alone we're basically picking and choosing, unless we're willing to give Pokemon like Dunsparce, Mimikyu, or Basculin the same 7-A upgrade. Again, yes it's not a perfect way of scaling, but it's the most reliable and most consistent method we have.

I'm thinking that it could be a possibility to revise Beedrill's profile based on that logic, however. But we'll have to see if everyone else is on board with that first.

 

[Mickey1940]

Whether or not Pokemon can "compete" with late game 3rd-stages isn't concrete, since just about any Pokemon can do it, or even solo the entire game if you have the right strategy and train it in just the right way.
If we make exceptions based on that argument alone we're basically picking and choosing, unless we're willing to give Pokemon like Dunsparce, Mimikyu, or Basculin the same 7-A upgrade. Again, yes it's not a perfect way of scaling, but it's the most reliable and most consistent method we have.

I'm thinking that it could be a possibility to revise Beedrill's profile based on that logic, however. But we'll have to see if everyone else is on board with that first.

It's pretty reasonable to be able to use 3rd Evolution bugs and some non-evolving pokemon in the Pokemon League and World Championships. In fact, many Gym Leaders in the Black 2 and White 2 World Tournament use some non-evolving pokemon, and they are perfectly capable of defeating the player character post-game. Some examples are Burgh's Durant, Cilan's Maractus, Lenora's Audino and Dunsparce, Elesa's Emolga and Stunfisk, and many more.

With enough training, weaker pokemon can keep up with final evolution pokemon. Of course, they have to follow some form of logic, like you said. A level 100 Pichu could probably solo the game. However, some stronger pokemon like the pokemon that can't evolve should be able to keep up with final evolutions with enough training.

 

[HenryWong122]

The only problem is that most Pokemon pages are for wild Pokemon and not trainer owned Pokemon.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

@Henry

Really? I thought we established way back that we're using trained Pokemon.

 

[Abstractions]

What justifies scaling certain Pokemon to Pupitar if pseudo-legendary is not an official term?

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

I was never on board with Pseudo-legendary scaling in the first place, so I don't know.

 

[HenryWong122]

Pseudo-legendary Pokémon (Japanese: 600µùÅ 600 club) is a fan term commonly used to refer to any Pokémon that has a three-stage evolution line, 1,250,000 experience at level 100, and a base stat total of exactly 600 (before Mega Evolving). Pseudo-legendary Pokémon are often more powerful than many other non-Legendary Pokémon due to their high base stats. Trainer owned Pokemon have separate pages. Technically, we scale to Pupitar because he is a second-stage Pokemon not because he's a pseudo.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

I thought we accepted long ago that we don't use in-game stats to justify scaling?