Possible Primal Groudon Speed Downgrade

[Assaltwaffle]

In the calc that shows Primal Groudo's speed and attack potency, its speed comes from an energy beam that launches into the sky. While this is absolutely attack speed and I have no problem with the calc, why did this get placed as its overall speed (movement speed included)? Groudon is always portrayed as an intimating and slow force of nature, I do not see why its movement speed is put at MHS+ because of its energy's speed. If that was the case, any character that could create or light or lightning would also be at that level of combat and movement speed, even if no one is able to dodge or react to their attacks.

I believe it may be best to leave its movement at Unknown, while putting its attack speed as MHS+ for that calc. Reactions and combat speed would scale to Kyogre, who dodged its attacks. It seems rather absurd that Groudon would be moving nearly 20x faster than the high end of Latios and Latias' calc, the latter two of which are known for their great speed. What are people's thoughts on this topic?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Groudon would scale to Kyorge, who reacted to Groudon's attacks when they fought

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I don't agree, considering Kyogre can likely dodge its attacks, and Groudon's status makes it a top tier legendary. Besides, even the timespace duo is shown as slow.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Dodging a random attack =/= dodging the actual attack with said speed feat.

Note that it wasn't even an attack.

 

[RadicalMrR]

Well the notion of them being slow is from the anime, though I really don't see how animators can make a Kaiju look like its MHS+ in movement speed without looking silly.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I don't agree, considering Kyogre can likely dodge its attacks, and Groudon's status makes it a top tier legendary. Besides, even the timespace duo is shown as slow.

Well as combat I could see Kyogre dodging. As straight up movement speed we see Groudon moving at a solid snail's pace after he pulls out Drought. I imagine the Creation Trio are portrayed as such because it is basically impossible to show Infinite speed. Also they are not shown to be slow. In Pokemon Generations 11, Palkia and Dialga are shown flying into the sky at incredible speed.

Don't get me wrong, I am a huge fan of Pokemon and don't want to downplay, but this seems a bit crazy to put Groudon's Movement speed as so high when it has no showings so such speed.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

That's not an argument at all though. Most fiction characters also "appears" slow to us. This is way too much of a downplay.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Speaking of which. This seems like the best place to bring this up. Groudon does his Moon+ feat in base. Why we apply it to Primal forms is beyond me.

Should I make that a separate thread?

 

[Ryukama]

Like Saikou said, using how the audience can perceive a character is not a legitamate argument. If we did this screen no one in any visual form of media would be FTL, and very few would be past Subsonic.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Eh. I'll make my own thread for it.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Well the notion of them being slow is from the anime, though I really don't see how animators can make a Kaiju look like its MHS+ in movement speed without looking silly.

Okay, THAT would be so hilalarious to see lmao!

But in all seriousness yes I agree completely.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Ryu Hammy is accurately portrayed as FTL. Granted, a rare case, but blanket statements like "no one" get to me. As for portrayal of speed, there is absolutely a difference between flying around at what looks like Subsonic speeds vs literally taking a single step every couple of seconds.

I definitely support moving Groudon's Moon feat to base, for what it is worth.

 

[Ryukama]

@Assualt Hammy has an FTL feat and one that is slowed down for us. We never see him running at FTL speeds because it's impossible to animate something moving that fast.

But even if you want to nitpick one case that wouldn't get atrociously downplayed by your standards, it still doesn't make what you're suggesting reasonable at all. We shouldn't determine a character's speed based on "what looks like" to us rather their feats and comparing/powerscaling them to those they've kept pace with.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Exactly. Otherwise characters like Naruto and Sasuke who are rated MHS+ would be getting downgraded to human level speeds for how they look during combat and while running.

Also, the "what it looks" like comment wouldnt just apply to speed. It'd also apply to literally every other stat and a bunch of characters would have their AP downgraded along with their speed because of how much the "what it looks like" comment can effect them, which would effect them drastically.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

If we are going on feats alone, has Kyogre ever dodged an attack from Primal or even Base Groudon? If I recall the weather trio (excluding Rayquaza, who should be capable of dodging their attacks) either clash the attack with their own or muscle through it. Saying that they "should be able to dodge" is extremely shaky and is based on an inference that may or may not have merit. They could be that fast, but if we are going on feats and scaling alone, I just can't see it. Groudon is my favorite Pokemon and I love to see it getting high rankings, but I don't want something being inaccurately portrayed as too strong or fast.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

Again I have to said this. Since we involve both the game and anime itself which btw it has been shown being portrayed being slow in the anime. Not so sure on the games, but it is questionable at best. Also Kyorge tank attacks from Groudon while Groudon does the same. Also the "argument" Assaltwaffe uses is questionable at least.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Starkiller I am not sure what you are trying to say here. Kyogre and Groudon being able to tank hits from one anther is a Durability feat, not a speed feat. At the end are you saying that my argument is questionable, or the opposing argument is questionable?

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@Assalt Yours to be precise as Kyorge was shown dodging Groudon in the anime. Heck I can shown the video regarding that if you want to. Hold on let me find it.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

Pokemon Season 8 Episode 374 Groudon Versus Kyogre ! The Scuffle of Legends !

Btw this was in Base form for the both of them.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I just watched the same one before you linked it. Kyogre ate two Solarbeams without dodging whatsoever and Groudon broke Kyogre's waves without moving.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@Assalt Are you sure on that? I not so sure if Kyogre truly "eat" those attacks as you speak of. Also again animation was sorta crappy in the video as well.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Kyogre tanks an attack (Earth Power?) from Groudon. No dodge. Kyogre eats a Solarbeam from Groudon, although it does make a wave to try to stop it first. This is their base forms, which is certainly a good start, but the speed in question comes from their Primal Forms. Watching their Primal battle atm.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@Assalt The video I shown was Base Kyorge v Base Groudon so this isn't the case here. Again the fight was depicted in the anime rather than the games. I would prefer if we could see the fight in the game's perspective. Also in a different video when Mega Charizard dodging the attack from Primal Groudon while going at it. You definitely should know though this is coming from the Pokemon Specials as well.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Yeah Mega Charizard dodging Primal Groudon is actually a pretty good speed feat that is certainly higher than anything it currently has. When it comes to the games they don't have anything like the calc aside from that scene (coming from one who has played them).

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@Assalt As you know we do have the composite profile for all known Pokemon including the Weather Trio. Using the fight that is depicted in the anime as it is logically known that Kyorge can dodge some attacks if not all of it plus you should notice that both Kyorge and Groudon has help via the ones who hold the Red and Blue Orb. Pikachu holding the Red Orb while the guy (The leader of Team Aqua) hold the Blue Orb so arguing about this is something that is based on the anime.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Alright, from all the fights I just saw Groudon never dodged once. Kyogre does dodge, but Groudon just stands around.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

Make sense since Groudon is technically counts as a tank while Kyorge is a water based Pokemon as Groudon is a land based Pokemon so it make sense that a water based Legendary Pokemon can dodge attacks from a land based Pokemon. I mean look at Pikachu going against a trained Magikarp.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

If that is the case then why is Groudon ranked so highly in speed? Has it literally ever dodged once?

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@Assalt You forget it involve all speeds as Kyorge can kept up with Groudon as Groudon can kept up with Kyorge.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

Also using the logic here, it will be a speed blitz for Kyorge which it wasn't the case here as Groudon has consistently fought with Kyorge when they do.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Combat and reactions =/= movement speed. Ground has demonstrated that it can keep up with Kyogre in combat, and thus I have adjusted my post accordingly, yet never moves at any such speeds. Kyogre should get that level of movement speed, but Groudon never shows it, by scaling or in feats.

For example, most of the Overwatch cast are Subsonic in movement speed, yet have the ability to fight with and react to High Hypersonic+ enemies. The same can be said about Groudon.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@Assalt Again the supposed speed advantage of a water based Pokemon being faster than a land based Pokemon is clearly shown here as they both arrive at the exact same time in the same place which it implies they might have similar movement speeds. Travel speed can be used as movement speed as all movement doesn't just have to be in combat for that matter. The fact you choose to ignore that make me feel suspicious about it.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

In the clip Groudon is already there. Unless the full episode is posted elsewhere, I do not know how long it was standing around that location. I am not trying to ignore anything or downplay, but the hulking creature that never dodges anything literally ever being at such high speeds because it is similar to Kyogre is ridiculous. Two entities can be similar in power and not speed, or vice versa.

Also I do not know why you keep trying to bring typing into this. The fact that Groudon is a Ground Type doesn't make him slow. Garchomp is Ground and very fast. Typing isn't an argument that needs to be addressed here.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@Assalt Both Kyorge and Groudon was shown being there regardless if you like to admit it or not. Both beings can have similar rating in power and speed as Kyorge and Groudon has fought against each other in the past and we never got to see that fight. Regardless though as I said water based and land based in this case and it doesn't involve Pokemon Types at all. Well I will discuss with you another time since I gtg sleep as of now.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I am aware they are both shown being there. We are not shown any time period for Groudon's travel, however. If I challenge someone in China to a race to my living room and he arrives after me, it doesn't mean that I am faster or equal to him, it means that I was just closer/already there. If Groudon is showing moving there from a similar distance as Kyogre did earlier in the episode then I am glad to concede my point entirely.

Two beings can fight without being able to move at the same speed, provided they have equal reaction and combat speed.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@Assalt Groudon and Kyorge both were shown traveling to the same location abelit it was shown that Kyorge has a headstart to the same location. Heck in the game they were literally standing against each other face to face while going at it. In the Pokemon specials in the third episode before the battle between Primal Groudon and Kyorge start, they were quite literally travel from to where they begin to battle. Around 50:26 to 50:28 is when the distance they were shown to travel at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR1XEpTaziw

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Fair enough. That is satisfactory.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

Okay now that is resolved. I think this thread might be concluded so if anyone want to close this thread, it is fair game. So can someone close this thread?